That's not relevant to this discussion though, I said the last minute rescue backfired tenfold, which it did because Ace died to save Luffy DURING Luffy's rescue of Ace.
The causality doesn't matter. If you wanna go that path, then Luffy was there to rescue Ace cause he got his vivre card, because he's his brother, because they accidentally met etc. etc.
The end result is Ace's death, which was his decision, but nevertheless it happened because of Luffy in that moment.
IF they attempted to rescue or help Ace before he was surrounded by everything Marines had to offer, and not last minute at Marineford in this manner, would they have succeeded? That is the parallel to Vivi. Last minute might be too late.
That's not relevant to this discussion though, I said the last minute rescue backfired tenfold, which it did because Ace died to save Luffy DURING Luffy's rescue of Ace.
It is because Luffy saved Ace. They were home free.
As they were running away, Ace decided to stop and take Akainu's bait and that is when his downfall begun. Akainu wouldn't have had a free shot at Luffy if Ace had followed with the escape.
Luffy only became vulnerable after Ace's actions. So like I said, you need to reread that ending if you really believe it was Luffys fault for Ace's death
It is because Luffy saved Ace. They were home free.
As they were running away, Ace decided to stop and take Akainu's bait and that is when his downfall begun. Akainu wouldn't have had a free shot at Luffy if Ace had followed with the escape.
Luffy only became vulnerable after Ace's actions. So like I said, you need to reread that ending if you really believe it was Luffys fault for Ace's death
And that wouldn't have happened if Ace didn't get triggered and gone back to fight Akainu. If it's a chain of events, then you can't blame the guy who saved his ass for that. It's not Luffy's fault that they stopped running lmao.
And that wouldn't have happened if Ace didn't get triggered and gone back to fight Akainu. You can't blame the guy who saved his ass for that. It's not Luffy's fault that they stopped running lmao.
You contradict yourself. The chain of events start when Ace stopped to take Akainu's bait so why are you ignoring that to focus on Luffy when in fact it was Ace's fault for Luffy being vulnerable to Akainu in the first place?
That has nothing to do with Luffy going to Ace at the last moment though. It's an unforeseen incident. Luffy'd have still succeeded if it weren't for that. Besides, Luffy didn't have enough resources back then but he does now. He's a Yonko now. He could do things that he couldn't do back then. It's completely illogical to expect Luffy to stop believing his friends could deal with their own shit because Ace died. That completely goes against how SHs function in general.
You contradict yourself. The chain of events start when Ace stopped to take Akainu's bait so why are you ignoring that to focus on Luffy when in fact it was Ace's fault for Luffy being vulnerable to Akainu in the first place?
That has nothing to do with Luffy going to Ace at the last moment though. It's an unforeseen incident. Luffy'd have still succeeded if it weren't for that. Besides, Luffy didn't have enough resources back then but he does now. He's a Yonko now. He could do things that he couldn't do back then. It's completely illogical to expect Luffy to stop believing his friends could deal with their own shit because Ace died. That completely goes against how SHs function in general.
Ya, the difference now is that it'd definitely not happen again. Luffy's whole vow is to not let it happen again to his friends.
The issue is Luffy is dismissing whatever danger Vivi might be in, after an Ace comparison.
He shouldn't dismiss it so easily cause: a) she might be in grave danger, b) he didn't have a fabulous time when Ace was in grave danger. If anything, mentioning Ace should remind him of loss and urgency.
I mean ofc we know nothing will happen to Vivi, but the SHs don't know that
I’m all for Zoro Vice Captain moments in the series. Infact their some of the most iconic moments in the series.
This chapter While it does appear to be a Vice Captain Moment for Zoro it’s really all CAP.
Zoro is reminding Luffy about what he said about Ace and while Luffy did say that.
The end result of trusting Ace and letting Him have his own Adventures was
Death
Back then Luffy had the Whitebeard Pirates their Allys, as well as the Impel Down Allys at his side
Man power arguably even greater than the Strawhats and their Grand Fleet.
So what good is trust when you couldn’t save a more competent character than Vivi with a stronger group characters?
And Let’s be honest…. The Strawhats are gonna end up saving Vivi anyways….
Would have been character development on Luffys part if he just stopped everything and decided to pursue his friend earlier this time around since waiting got his other killed.
Do you realize that it was Ace own hand that got him killed right?
Also Vivi missing ain't Vivi hostage.
The SHs have plenty of friends , if they hear any odd news of them are they gonna go back always? It would be stupid ,they aren't nannies.
As Zoro said if truly needed they'll go.
Actually that's not what Zoro is saying. Zoro's statement hinges on the fact that they do not know where Vivi is.
He goes on to state that if that time comes, then they will fight anybody.
Ya, the difference now is that it'd definitely not happen again. Luffy's whole vow is to not let it happen again to his friends.
The issue is Luffy is dismissing whatever danger Vivi might be in, after an Ace comparison.
He shouldn't dismiss it so easily cause: a) she might be in grave danger, b) he didn't have a fabulous time when Ace was in grave danger. If anything, mentioning Ace should remind him of loss and urgency.
I mean ofc we know nothing will happen to Vivi, but the SHs don't know that
@Gol D. Roger I have an issue with this in particular because Luffy doesn't showcase he changed after Marineford in this instance.
Zoro reminded Luffy of his words before Ace's death. So Marineford which was a huge loss and ultimately failure, in the end doesn't matter for changing the mc.
It was a big dilemma he had to overcome, and now suddenly it's back to "she has her own adventures!". Wut
Actually that's not what Zoro is saying. Zoro's statement hinges on the fact that they do not know where Vivi is.
He goes on to state that if that time comes, then they will fight anybody.
@Gol D. Roger I have an issue with this in particular because Luffy doesn't showcase he changed after Marineford in this instance.
Zoro reminded Luffy of his words before Ace's death. So Marineford which was a huge loss and ultimately failure, in the end doesn't matter for changing the mc.
It was a big dilemma he had to overcome, and now suddenly it's back to "she has her own adventures!". Wut
You could see how badly Luffy wanted to go there. But he let it be, simply because of Ace's pride (and strength) apparently.
Vivi and Ace have nothing to do with each other, different circumstances, different characters, and Ace ended up a donut anyway. Oda was making a call back but pointless in the end.
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