Current Events Why is it that X Tobi Roppo gets called the weakest whenever a SH beats them?
- Thread starter Shiroyru
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Inu either deals with Jack (imo, unlikely since Oda never showed off his hybrid, like King with Marco, yet did for Queen with Sanji), or a group of strawhats takes him out.
Preferably those that barely got anything thus far (Brook, Chopper, Usopp), even if that sounds a bit ridiculous. But I feel like those 3 could, if let's say Chopper gets a new form, Usopp reawakens Haki, and Brook finally gets so show off some of his strongest stuff. Hell, add Jinbe/Franky if they are done and just have all 5 mollywop Jack in a chapter or 2
Preferably those that barely got anything thus far (Brook, Chopper, Usopp), even if that sounds a bit ridiculous. But I feel like those 3 could, if let's say Chopper gets a new form, Usopp reawakens Haki, and Brook finally gets so show off some of his strongest stuff. Hell, add Jinbe/Franky if they are done and just have all 5 mollywop Jack in a chapter or 2
One of my biggest problems with this idea is that I don’t see how all 3 of them would end up at Jack’s location. I can see Brook passing by Jack, but why would Chopper and Usopp randomly go to floor 2?
Also, as I’ve mentioned before, I highly doubt WsW is done for good since he clearly has a connection to the Marys which has to be relevant at some point.
I also doubt that Page One is done since not has he not shown any named attacks, and he’s barely launched any attacks at all for that matter. He didn’t even fight in his hybrid form. This is just a hunch, so it shouldn’t be taken as definitive proof, but I have a feeling that P1 is the type of character who fights a lot better when he’s angry (and he’d be very angry when he sees Ulti defeated), and based on his fight vs Sanji, P1 acts very differently when he’s fighting without Ulti. Additionally, in the past, the top cards weren’t King, Queen, Jack, and Joker. They were King, Queen, Knight (which a “Jack” is), and Page. A potential suggestion that P1 is the strongest F5 when he’s fighting at his full power? Lastly, I believe that, considering Usopp will most likely be fulfilling his dream of becoming a brave warrior at Elbaf for obvious reasons, Usopp needs to prove that he can hold his own against a strong melee fighter by himself instead of having to be support to everyone else. Snipers/archers are stereotyped as being more cowardly, underhanded, and lacking honor compared to knights/warriors, so Usopp needs to prove that he doesn’t follow this archetype despite being a sniper.
And as I told you plenty of times already, I expect Chopper to either fight Numbers 1, 2, and 3, or fight Perospero. Chopper vs Perospero would make sense because he would hold a grudge against Pero for making him look like a joke at WCI, as well as for “killing” Pedro (Chopper has more of a connection to the Minks than any other SH), and Chopper does have a strong association with candy. The only reason why I find Chopper vs Numbers more likely is because Carrot has a really strong claim and setup to being the one to KO Perospero. Chopper also as a strong association with the Numbers since he is a “monster”
Also, as I’ve mentioned before, I highly doubt WsW is done for good since he clearly has a connection to the Marys which has to be relevant at some point.
I also doubt that Page One is done since not has he not shown any named attacks, and he’s barely launched any attacks at all for that matter. He didn’t even fight in his hybrid form. This is just a hunch, so it shouldn’t be taken as definitive proof, but I have a feeling that P1 is the type of character who fights a lot better when he’s angry (and he’d be very angry when he sees Ulti defeated), and based on his fight vs Sanji, P1 acts very differently when he’s fighting without Ulti. Additionally, in the past, the top cards weren’t King, Queen, Jack, and Joker. They were King, Queen, Knight (which a “Jack” is), and Page. A potential suggestion that P1 is the strongest F5 when he’s fighting at his full power? Lastly, I believe that, considering Usopp will most likely be fulfilling his dream of becoming a brave warrior at Elbaf for obvious reasons, Usopp needs to prove that he can hold his own against a strong melee fighter by himself instead of having to be support to everyone else. Snipers/archers are stereotyped as being more cowardly, underhanded, and lacking honor compared to knights/warriors, so Usopp needs to prove that he doesn’t follow this archetype despite being a sniper.
And as I told you plenty of times already, I expect Chopper to either fight Numbers 1, 2, and 3, or fight Perospero. Chopper vs Perospero would make sense because he would hold a grudge against Pero for making him look like a joke at WCI, as well as for “killing” Pedro (Chopper has more of a connection to the Minks than any other SH), and Chopper does have a strong association with candy. The only reason why I find Chopper vs Numbers more likely is because Carrot has a really strong claim and setup to being the one to KO Perospero. Chopper also as a strong association with the Numbers since he is a “monster”
Usopp is also on floor 2 btw. That's where Tama made the announcement. Big Mom and Jack are also there.
Idk, just a guess. Maybe Franky supports Chopper with those Numbers you mention, while Jinbe/Brook/Usopp fight Jack.
I just think at the end of the day, all major Beast Pirate members will be taken out by Luffys crew.
Idk, just a guess. Maybe Franky supports Chopper with those Numbers you mention, while Jinbe/Brook/Usopp fight Jack.
I just think at the end of the day, all major Beast Pirate members will be taken out by Luffys crew.
It would be incredibly bad writing imo if even a single SH didn’t get a 1v1. Oda had the perfect setup, with there being 10 SHs and 9 “core” Beast Pirates (Kaido, 3 All Stars, and 5 Flyers, with Perospero subbing in for Drake as the 10th main enemy). Oda isn’t an idiot. I’m sure he’s aware that most readers would find it incredibly disappointing of P1 was done in for good by BM instead of having a legit fight with a SH, so I’m sure at least P1 will get up. Also, it’s been hundreds of chapters for most SHs since they’ve gotten proper fights, so why not give it to them in this arc?
iirc Franky has enough cola to use 3 Radical Beams before his body runs out, so he should have 1 more Radical Beam left in him (though him beating Sasaki in a hypothetical continuation of the fight with yet another Radical Beam would be a little stale, so maybe Oda has him use a new move just as strong as Radical Beam)
iirc Franky has enough cola to use 3 Radical Beams before his body runs out, so he should have 1 more Radical Beam left in him (though him beating Sasaki in a hypothetical continuation of the fight with yet another Radical Beam would be a little stale, so maybe Oda has him use a new move just as strong as Radical Beam)
A PageOne vs Ussop fight would make Big Momlook dumb for failing to take out not one but two of the Tobi Roppo,but I wouldn’t mind.
Still not sure how Ussop can overcome his weaknesses of “my attacks aren’t doing shit”. Perhaps he uses Impact Wolf in this hypothetical and unlikely scenario to deal internal damage?
Still not sure how Ussop can overcome his weaknesses of “my attacks aren’t doing shit”. Perhaps he uses Impact Wolf in this hypothetical and unlikely scenario to deal internal damage?
I don't think that would be a BM problem anyway. She's the same doofus that got tricked by Jinbe/Robin and Kid/Law combos. Oda embarrassing her more by having P1 get up wouldn't be that weird. For Usopp now maybe it could be exploiting a weakness from being damaged bad, and using observation Haki to stay ahead of his strength, as Nami did with a weakened Ulti with Zeus. Gotta see how 1022 plays out first.
There's definitely some big questions still remaining. Are Sasaki/WsW down for Franky/Jinbe? Will Page 1 recover at all for Usopp? Will Nami get anything else? Will Chopper/Brook get anything signficant at all? Is Inu defeating Jack? Are any of the 4 remaining Numbers at all competent?
I feel like these are some of the biggest questions beyond Luffy/Zoro/Sanji that need to be addressed.
There's definitely some big questions still remaining. Are Sasaki/WsW down for Franky/Jinbe? Will Page 1 recover at all for Usopp? Will Nami get anything else? Will Chopper/Brook get anything signficant at all? Is Inu defeating Jack? Are any of the 4 remaining Numbers at all competent?
I feel like these are some of the biggest questions beyond Luffy/Zoro/Sanji that need to be addressed.
Usopp will finish jack. Him fighting a physical monster isn’t unheard of as Mr. 4 was straight up described as the third strongest after crocodile. Chu was Third strongest after Arlong.
In both arcs where every straw hat had a fight Usopp fought the third strongest. (Nami wasn’t a straw hat in Arlong Park and Robin and Usopp weren’t straw hats in Enies lobby)
Brook is probably going to fight Apoo. Apoo as a musician is cool, and he’s been shown comparable to the Tobi Roppo when he fought drake so power wise it fits. But more than that Mary’s have reported to king and queen on information about Momo and now they have seen Robin so King blindsiding Drake then telling Apoo to go capture Nico Robin and he won’t kill him for his failures tracks with these characters as apoo is their top subordinate left.
Chopper is probably going to fight Pero soon. Neko is going down I’m sure, I can’t imagine Oda allowing any Scabbards victory over their chosen enemy. Chopper May have an upgraded monster point, but I think he may have more up his sleeve and a final veteran level fighter who he has build up with via Pedro and the minks works for him.
These are the best power wise and story wise fights for these three imo.
In both arcs where every straw hat had a fight Usopp fought the third strongest. (Nami wasn’t a straw hat in Arlong Park and Robin and Usopp weren’t straw hats in Enies lobby)
Brook is probably going to fight Apoo. Apoo as a musician is cool, and he’s been shown comparable to the Tobi Roppo when he fought drake so power wise it fits. But more than that Mary’s have reported to king and queen on information about Momo and now they have seen Robin so King blindsiding Drake then telling Apoo to go capture Nico Robin and he won’t kill him for his failures tracks with these characters as apoo is their top subordinate left.
Chopper is probably going to fight Pero soon. Neko is going down I’m sure, I can’t imagine Oda allowing any Scabbards victory over their chosen enemy. Chopper May have an upgraded monster point, but I think he may have more up his sleeve and a final veteran level fighter who he has build up with via Pedro and the minks works for him.
These are the best power wise and story wise fights for these three imo.
If Page 1 doesn't get up, I could also just see Brook tagging with Usopp against Jack. There is a pretty consistent pattern of specifically beast pirates being fought by the crew, and while Apoo is one technically, I mean the executives. After all this time I'd wonder if he isn't technically going to switch sides, same with Hawkins.
I don't see Oda making them permanent villains tbh. The music thing honestly is cool, and maybe it does connect then, but it doesn't have to imo.
It's also why I don't personally see Chopper fighting Peros either. Everything just seems strictly Beast Pirates at this point. Just not sure how we reliably have Neko not deal with Pero and lead that to Chopper, same with leading Brook to Apoo. Usopp is at least on the 2nd floor, same as Jack, so that can make sense.
I don't see Oda making them permanent villains tbh. The music thing honestly is cool, and maybe it does connect then, but it doesn't have to imo.
It's also why I don't personally see Chopper fighting Peros either. Everything just seems strictly Beast Pirates at this point. Just not sure how we reliably have Neko not deal with Pero and lead that to Chopper, same with leading Brook to Apoo. Usopp is at least on the 2nd floor, same as Jack, so that can make sense.
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Apoo got an official beast pirates role and intro box, in my mind he’s an enemy. I don’t put stock in the “Supernova” thing with them all being important some are going to be like Bonney and Urouge and Bege who failed.
Hawkins and Apoo are enemies and Hawkins fighting Killer fits and Apoo fighting brook would work too. The main reason this should happen is next chapter Drake will likely be defeated. Oda still treats him like a Tobi Roppo even including him in the “ancient species” chapter with the others. So him going down with the others is fitting.
Hawkins and Apoo are enemies and Hawkins fighting Killer fits and Apoo fighting brook would work too. The main reason this should happen is next chapter Drake will likely be defeated. Oda still treats him like a Tobi Roppo even including him in the “ancient species” chapter with the others. So him going down with the others is fitting.
First and foremost I think it is important to establish one ting, the Tobi Roppo are all on the same general level. That is why they are collective. Logically speaking there is not a single one that should completely outclass the other. What determines who is above the other at the end of the day is their feats/stats etc. and I personally hold the opinion that the dinos have the best feats and stats so I tend to rank them higher (Sasaki seems to be the most compromised amongst the dino's coz of his belly caveat so he ranks lower than the other two for me personally), Who's Who feats were poor mostly due to how solid Jinbe was, but none of his feats or stats really stand out as exceptional like dinos so he ranks around the middle of the pack for me whereas maria even though her abilities are diverse.
Her abilities and stats seem the least threatening so she ranks bottom for me.
Personally I don't think the Tobi Roppo are weak (were some disappointing? yh) the SHs were simply just better. At least the ones that didn't require massive plot help to win. a.k.a. Nami and Usopp. Franky required a bit of plot help but I don't think he'd have required it against any of the non-dino tobi roppo as they lack durability hax and Franky himself has pretty impressive AP and Defense, long as he can hit, he can win imo.
Lastly, this logic that Jinbe is miles above Franky and Robin is rubbish Haki or no Haki. They all fought opponents on the same level. Jinbe put in the most dominating performance so he gets dibs as top of the pile but saying "oh! Jinbe was a Shichubukai blah blah" is rubbish imo, what does that have to do with anything, that current Shichibukai is currently matched up against a Flying Six the same calibre of opponent that Franky and Robin are beating. Franky fought Luffy to a draw prior to joining, and he fought and opponent of the same Calibre as Chopper's and Blueno (i.e. an opponent that Luffy mid diffed) in the next arc. Moreover today he's around the same level as Robin, Brook etc.
Her abilities and stats seem the least threatening so she ranks bottom for me.
Personally I don't think the Tobi Roppo are weak (were some disappointing? yh) the SHs were simply just better. At least the ones that didn't require massive plot help to win. a.k.a. Nami and Usopp. Franky required a bit of plot help but I don't think he'd have required it against any of the non-dino tobi roppo as they lack durability hax and Franky himself has pretty impressive AP and Defense, long as he can hit, he can win imo.
Lastly, this logic that Jinbe is miles above Franky and Robin is rubbish Haki or no Haki. They all fought opponents on the same level. Jinbe put in the most dominating performance so he gets dibs as top of the pile but saying "oh! Jinbe was a Shichubukai blah blah" is rubbish imo, what does that have to do with anything, that current Shichibukai is currently matched up against a Flying Six the same calibre of opponent that Franky and Robin are beating. Franky fought Luffy to a draw prior to joining, and he fought and opponent of the same Calibre as Chopper's and Blueno (i.e. an opponent that Luffy mid diffed) in the next arc. Moreover today he's around the same level as Robin, Brook etc.
Sweet Commanders are a collective as well, so nonsense argument. Katakuri outclassed Smoothie and Cracker immensely.
What feats do the dinos have?
WW in the middle of the pack....
Last paragraph is equally nonsense. What constitutes the general level of a combatant is not his last opponent but his/her best feats and how difficult it was for him/her to accomplish those feats.
Jinbe completely outclassing an opponent (putting aside whether WW is comparable to Sasaki and BM in the first place) whereas Franky and Robin barely winning matters because it underlines that while the F6 and their general level is the ceiling for current Franky and Robin, the ceiling for Jinbe is much higher. It´s a dishonest and roundabout way to argue (they fought similar people, they are similar level). This was already used in Fishman Island in regards to Sanji and Jinbe and got shattered in WCI when Sanji was kicked around by Daifuku and Jinbe was tossling against Big Mom and made Perospero and Daifuku not believe their eyes what they are seeing. But no, this is all somehow irrelevant because Franky and Robin went all out and beat guys similar to a guy Jinbe outclassed.
Last time you brought up an argument with CP9 and Franky, Chopper and Luffy and i already disproved that, and you are doing it again.
So once again, bringing up this comparison literally hurts your argument and substantiates mine, and here is why.
Putting aside the claim of Franky fighting Luffy to a draw (which is also nonsense considering the shipwrights literally intervened after a few exchanges) Luffy low or mid diffing Blueno, whereas Chopper and Franky having a hard fight vs a similar strength opponent compared to Blueno, completely underlines why difficulty in a fight matters. Luffy low/mid diffed Blueno, then went on to Lucci. What happened when Franky confronted Lucci? He had no chance whatsoever, not even against non-Zoan Lucci, whereas Luffy was as equal as they come to Lucci.
And Jinbe outclassed his opponent even more than Luffy did vs Blueno.
This is what Franky himself had to say.
If we follow your logic, since Luffy low/mid diffed an opponent similar to Franky and Chopper, he should be comparable to them and should stand no chance against Lucci since Franky did not stand a chance whatsoever against him. And that logic is factually wrong.
Now in regards to Shichibukai being irrelevant, unfortunately the manga once again disagrees with you, among other portrayal (whether from Sengoku or Big Mom).
I would like to see Robin or Franky saving Luffy in Marineford or directly confronting and beating BM in her physical strength, or fight for 5 days vs commander level Ace to a draw.
Until then, unfortunately they are not comparable.
What feats do the dinos have?
WW in the middle of the pack....
Last paragraph is equally nonsense. What constitutes the general level of a combatant is not his last opponent but his/her best feats and how difficult it was for him/her to accomplish those feats.
Jinbe completely outclassing an opponent (putting aside whether WW is comparable to Sasaki and BM in the first place) whereas Franky and Robin barely winning matters because it underlines that while the F6 and their general level is the ceiling for current Franky and Robin, the ceiling for Jinbe is much higher. It´s a dishonest and roundabout way to argue (they fought similar people, they are similar level). This was already used in Fishman Island in regards to Sanji and Jinbe and got shattered in WCI when Sanji was kicked around by Daifuku and Jinbe was tossling against Big Mom and made Perospero and Daifuku not believe their eyes what they are seeing. But no, this is all somehow irrelevant because Franky and Robin went all out and beat guys similar to a guy Jinbe outclassed.
Last time you brought up an argument with CP9 and Franky, Chopper and Luffy and i already disproved that, and you are doing it again.
So once again, bringing up this comparison literally hurts your argument and substantiates mine, and here is why.
Putting aside the claim of Franky fighting Luffy to a draw (which is also nonsense considering the shipwrights literally intervened after a few exchanges) Luffy low or mid diffing Blueno, whereas Chopper and Franky having a hard fight vs a similar strength opponent compared to Blueno, completely underlines why difficulty in a fight matters. Luffy low/mid diffed Blueno, then went on to Lucci. What happened when Franky confronted Lucci? He had no chance whatsoever, not even against non-Zoan Lucci, whereas Luffy was as equal as they come to Lucci.
And Jinbe outclassed his opponent even more than Luffy did vs Blueno.
This is what Franky himself had to say.
If we follow your logic, since Luffy low/mid diffed an opponent similar to Franky and Chopper, he should be comparable to them and should stand no chance against Lucci since Franky did not stand a chance whatsoever against him. And that logic is factually wrong.
Now in regards to Shichibukai being irrelevant, unfortunately the manga once again disagrees with you, among other portrayal (whether from Sengoku or Big Mom).
I would like to see Robin or Franky saving Luffy in Marineford or directly confronting and beating BM in her physical strength, or fight for 5 days vs commander level Ace to a draw.
Until then, unfortunately they are not comparable.
Yes the Sweet commanders are all on the same general level (they are all solid high tiers) with Katakuri being the cream of the crop. It’s easy to forget that Luffy also struggled with Cracker & defeated him together with Nami & the homies, with Nami’s clima tact heavily countering his biscuit soldiers. That said, I do agree with you that Katakuri’s FS hax sets him apart from the other Sweet Commanders but what exactly has Who’s Who done to put him over the rest of the flying six?
I’m gonna assume you’re just being willfully ignorant with your ‘what feats do the dinos have’ statement coz I doubt you are that slow😅. Regardless, I’ll re-iterate again, the dinos have durability hax (they are literally mini Kaidos in a sense) and this particular characteristic has been emphasized time & time again since their very introduction in the arc & we got to see just how ridiculous it is through Ulti’s feats in particular with her tanking Linlin’s maser canon (the strongest attack she has ever shown in the series). This characteristic is something that neither Who’s Who or Maria possess.
Sorry I didn’t see whatever it is you think that you disproved but it doesn’t really matter as I’m not interested in going into a long winded debate on it.
Point I made with that post is simple. Because you think that Jinbe is stronger than the original Adult Trio doesn’t automatically make Who’s Who the strongest Tobi Roppo simply because he fought Jinbe. On Enies Lobby most people would agree that Franky was stronger than Chopper prior to the climax of the arc yet Chopper faced a stronger opponent than Franky’s 🤷🏾♂️. It isn’t a matter of opinion this is manga fact.
So the Luffy that fought Franky on W7 was the same Luffy that fought Lucci on Enies Lobby
. He didn’t, I don’t know, require a power up to beat him, he just solo’d Lucci in base? 
and yh I’m sure I’m prolly remembering incorrectly but Luffy also mid-diffed Blueno in base didn’t he?
A fair point I think you make tho is the ting about a character’s last opponent not necessarily determining how strong they are. Though this how Oda typically does it in major arcs. That said however it is also important to note that a very strong character joining the crew doesn’t definitively put him over other members he appeared to be stronger than prior to joining abs we have precedent for this. Case in point, Franky & Chopper on Enies Lobby. (I.e. Robin’s case here in this arc is actually very similar to Chopper’s in that both got an overwhelming PU that completely decimated their opponent).
It is also important to note that the F6 are not linear with regards to the abilities they possess. Even though Jinbe beat Who’s Who comfortably, Who’s Who does not possess the characteristic trait of toughness the dinos have which make them incredibly harder to beat. For instance would a gargoyle punch put Ulti down? I think most will agree that it is very unlikely.
Just to put it out there, I do acknowledge that Jinbe is very strong what I disagree with is dismissing the original Adult Trio and definitely putting them beneath him because of it. Particularly since they fought an opponent of the same calibre as his. I think most will agree that the Adult Trio turned out to be a lot stronger than the lot of us gave them credit for coming into this arc 🙏🏿
I’m gonna assume you’re just being willfully ignorant with your ‘what feats do the dinos have’ statement coz I doubt you are that slow😅. Regardless, I’ll re-iterate again, the dinos have durability hax (they are literally mini Kaidos in a sense) and this particular characteristic has been emphasized time & time again since their very introduction in the arc & we got to see just how ridiculous it is through Ulti’s feats in particular with her tanking Linlin’s maser canon (the strongest attack she has ever shown in the series). This characteristic is something that neither Who’s Who or Maria possess.
Last paragraph is equally nonsense. What constitutes the general level of a combatant is not his last opponent but his/her best feats and how difficult it was for him/her to accomplish those feats.
Jinbe completely outclassing an opponent (putting aside whether WW is comparable to Sasaki and BM in the first place) whereas Franky and Robin barely winning matters because it underlines that while the F6 and their general level is the ceiling for current Franky and Robin, the ceiling for Jinbe is much higher. It´s a dishonest and roundabout way to argue (they fought similar people, they are similar level). This was already used in Fishman Island in regards to Sanji and Jinbe and got shattered in WCI when Sanji was kicked around by Daifuku and Jinbe was tossling against Big Mom and made Perospero and Daifuku not believe their eyes what they are seeing. But no, this is all somehow irrelevant because Franky and Robin went all out and beat guys similar to a guy Jinbe outclassed.
Last time you brought up an argument with CP9 and Franky, Chopper and Luffy and i already disproved that, and you are doing it again.
So once again, bringing up this comparison literally hurts your argument and substantiates mine, and here is why.
Putting aside the claim of Franky fighting Luffy to a draw (which is also nonsense considering the shipwrights literally intervened after a few exchanges) Luffy low or mid diffing Blueno, whereas Chopper and Franky having a hard fight vs a similar strength opponent compared to Blueno, completely underlines why difficulty in a fight matters. Luffy low/mid diffed Blueno, then went on to Lucci. What happened when Franky confronted Lucci? He had no chance whatsoever, not even against non-Zoan Lucci, whereas Luffy was as equal as they come to Lucci.
And Jinbe outclassed his opponent even more than Luffy did vs Blueno.
This is what Franky himself had to say.
If we follow your logic, since Luffy low/mid diffed an opponent similar to Franky and Chopper, he should be comparable to them and should stand no chance against Lucci since Franky did not stand a chance whatsoever against him. And that logic is factually wrong.
Now in regards to Shichibukai being irrelevant, unfortunately the manga once again disagrees with you, among other portrayal (whether from Sengoku or Big Mom).
I would like to see Robin or Franky saving Luffy in Marineford or directly confronting and beating BM in her physical strength, or fight for 5 days vs commander level Ace to a draw.
Until then, unfortunately they are not comparable.
Jinbe completely outclassing an opponent (putting aside whether WW is comparable to Sasaki and BM in the first place) whereas Franky and Robin barely winning matters because it underlines that while the F6 and their general level is the ceiling for current Franky and Robin, the ceiling for Jinbe is much higher. It´s a dishonest and roundabout way to argue (they fought similar people, they are similar level). This was already used in Fishman Island in regards to Sanji and Jinbe and got shattered in WCI when Sanji was kicked around by Daifuku and Jinbe was tossling against Big Mom and made Perospero and Daifuku not believe their eyes what they are seeing. But no, this is all somehow irrelevant because Franky and Robin went all out and beat guys similar to a guy Jinbe outclassed.
Last time you brought up an argument with CP9 and Franky, Chopper and Luffy and i already disproved that, and you are doing it again.
So once again, bringing up this comparison literally hurts your argument and substantiates mine, and here is why.
Putting aside the claim of Franky fighting Luffy to a draw (which is also nonsense considering the shipwrights literally intervened after a few exchanges) Luffy low or mid diffing Blueno, whereas Chopper and Franky having a hard fight vs a similar strength opponent compared to Blueno, completely underlines why difficulty in a fight matters. Luffy low/mid diffed Blueno, then went on to Lucci. What happened when Franky confronted Lucci? He had no chance whatsoever, not even against non-Zoan Lucci, whereas Luffy was as equal as they come to Lucci.
And Jinbe outclassed his opponent even more than Luffy did vs Blueno.
This is what Franky himself had to say.
If we follow your logic, since Luffy low/mid diffed an opponent similar to Franky and Chopper, he should be comparable to them and should stand no chance against Lucci since Franky did not stand a chance whatsoever against him. And that logic is factually wrong.
Now in regards to Shichibukai being irrelevant, unfortunately the manga once again disagrees with you, among other portrayal (whether from Sengoku or Big Mom).
I would like to see Robin or Franky saving Luffy in Marineford or directly confronting and beating BM in her physical strength, or fight for 5 days vs commander level Ace to a draw.
Until then, unfortunately they are not comparable.
Point I made with that post is simple. Because you think that Jinbe is stronger than the original Adult Trio doesn’t automatically make Who’s Who the strongest Tobi Roppo simply because he fought Jinbe. On Enies Lobby most people would agree that Franky was stronger than Chopper prior to the climax of the arc yet Chopper faced a stronger opponent than Franky’s 🤷🏾♂️. It isn’t a matter of opinion this is manga fact.
So the Luffy that fought Franky on W7 was the same Luffy that fought Lucci on Enies Lobby
. He didn’t, I don’t know, require a power up to beat him, he just solo’d Lucci in base? and yh I’m sure I’m prolly remembering incorrectly but Luffy also mid-diffed Blueno in base didn’t he?A fair point I think you make tho is the ting about a character’s last opponent not necessarily determining how strong they are. Though this how Oda typically does it in major arcs. That said however it is also important to note that a very strong character joining the crew doesn’t definitively put him over other members he appeared to be stronger than prior to joining abs we have precedent for this. Case in point, Franky & Chopper on Enies Lobby. (I.e. Robin’s case here in this arc is actually very similar to Chopper’s in that both got an overwhelming PU that completely decimated their opponent).
It is also important to note that the F6 are not linear with regards to the abilities they possess. Even though Jinbe beat Who’s Who comfortably, Who’s Who does not possess the characteristic trait of toughness the dinos have which make them incredibly harder to beat. For instance would a gargoyle punch put Ulti down? I think most will agree that it is very unlikely.
Just to put it out there, I do acknowledge that Jinbe is very strong what I disagree with is dismissing the original Adult Trio and definitely putting them beneath him because of it. Particularly since they fought an opponent of the same calibre as his. I think most will agree that the Adult Trio turned out to be a lot stronger than the lot of us gave them credit for coming into this arc 🙏🏿
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Yes the Sweet commanders are all on the same general level (they are all solid high tiers) with Katakuri being the cream of the crop. It’s easy to forget that Luffy also struggled with Cracker & defeated him together with Nami & the homies, with Nami’s clima tact heavily countering his biscuit soldiers. That said, I do agree with you that Katakuri’s FS hax sets him apart from the other Sweet Commanders but what exactly has Who’s Who done to put him over the rest of the flying six?
I’m gonna assume you’re just being willfully ignorant with your ‘what feats do the dinos have’ statement coz I doubt you are that slow😅. Regardless, I’ll re-iterate again, the dinos have durability hax (they are literally mini Kaidos in a sense) and this particular characteristic has been emphasized time & time again since their very introduction in the arc & we got to see just how ridiculous it is through Ulti’s feats in particular with her tanking Linlin’s maser canon (the strongest attack she has ever shown in the series). This characteristic is something that neither Who’s Who or Maria possess.
Sorry I didn’t see whatever it is you think that you disproved but it doesn’t really matter as I’m not interested in going into a long winded debate on it.
Point I made with that post is simple. Because you think that Jinbe is stronger than the original Adult Trio doesn’t automatically make Who’s Who the strongest Tobi Roppo simply because he fought Jinbe. On Enies Lobby most people would agree that Franky was stronger than Chopper prior to the climax of the arc yet Chopper faced a stronger opponent than Franky’s 🤷🏾♂️. It isn’t a matter of opinion this is manga fact.
So the Luffy that fought Franky on W7 was the same Luffy that fought Lucci on Enies Lobby
. He didn’t, I don’t know, require a power up to beat him, he just solo’d Lucci in base? and yh I’m sure I’m prolly remembering incorrectly but Luffy also mid-diffed Blueno in base didn’t he?
A fair point I think you make tho is the ting about a character’s last opponent not necessarily determining how strong they are. Though this how Oda typically does it in major arcs. That said however it is also important to note that a very strong character joining the crew doesn’t definitively put him over other members he appeared to be stronger than prior to joining abs we have precedent for this. Case in point, Franky & Chopper on Enies Lobby. (I.e. Robin’s case here in this arc is actually very similar to Chopper’s in that both got an overwhelming PU that completely decimated their opponent).
It is also important to note that the F6 are not linear with regards to the abilities they possess. Even though Jinbe beat Who’s Who comfortably, Who’s Who does not possess the characteristic trait of toughness the dinos have which make them incredibly harder to beat. For instance would a gargoyle punch put Ulti down? I think most will agree that it is very unlikely.
Just to put it out there, I do acknowledge that Jinbe is very strong what I disagree with is dismissing the original Adult Trio and definitely putting them beneath him because of it. Particularly since they fought an opponent of the same calibre as his. I think most will agree that the Adult Trio turned out to be a lot stronger than the lot of us gave them credit for coming into this arc 🙏🏿
I’m gonna assume you’re just being willfully ignorant with your ‘what feats do the dinos have’ statement coz I doubt you are that slow😅. Regardless, I’ll re-iterate again, the dinos have durability hax (they are literally mini Kaidos in a sense) and this particular characteristic has been emphasized time & time again since their very introduction in the arc & we got to see just how ridiculous it is through Ulti’s feats in particular with her tanking Linlin’s maser canon (the strongest attack she has ever shown in the series). This characteristic is something that neither Who’s Who or Maria possess.
Sorry I didn’t see whatever it is you think that you disproved but it doesn’t really matter as I’m not interested in going into a long winded debate on it.
Point I made with that post is simple. Because you think that Jinbe is stronger than the original Adult Trio doesn’t automatically make Who’s Who the strongest Tobi Roppo simply because he fought Jinbe. On Enies Lobby most people would agree that Franky was stronger than Chopper prior to the climax of the arc yet Chopper faced a stronger opponent than Franky’s 🤷🏾♂️. It isn’t a matter of opinion this is manga fact.
So the Luffy that fought Franky on W7 was the same Luffy that fought Lucci on Enies Lobby
. He didn’t, I don’t know, require a power up to beat him, he just solo’d Lucci in base? and yh I’m sure I’m prolly remembering incorrectly but Luffy also mid-diffed Blueno in base didn’t he?A fair point I think you make tho is the ting about a character’s last opponent not necessarily determining how strong they are. Though this how Oda typically does it in major arcs. That said however it is also important to note that a very strong character joining the crew doesn’t definitively put him over other members he appeared to be stronger than prior to joining abs we have precedent for this. Case in point, Franky & Chopper on Enies Lobby. (I.e. Robin’s case here in this arc is actually very similar to Chopper’s in that both got an overwhelming PU that completely decimated their opponent).
It is also important to note that the F6 are not linear with regards to the abilities they possess. Even though Jinbe beat Who’s Who comfortably, Who’s Who does not possess the characteristic trait of toughness the dinos have which make them incredibly harder to beat. For instance would a gargoyle punch put Ulti down? I think most will agree that it is very unlikely.
Just to put it out there, I do acknowledge that Jinbe is very strong what I disagree with is dismissing the original Adult Trio and definitely putting them beneath him because of it. Particularly since they fought an opponent of the same calibre as his. I think most will agree that the Adult Trio turned out to be a lot stronger than the lot of us gave them credit for coming into this arc 🙏🏿
Katakuri was immensely superior to Cracker, both from general ballpark/level viewpoint, but especially in the direct confrontation.
And i don´t mean this in an asshole way, but you are using hax wrongly, at least from a RPG standpoint which comes pretty close to talking about powers of One Piece.
WW hadspeed, lethality, variety of attack patterns. Sasaki was a slow ass one trick pony that literally got hurt by Franky´s sword attacks that fishmen fodder in Fishman Island could dodge, Ulti also one trick pony but at least she had some speed and of course the durability was good but attack power meh, P1 was taken out too early to show something significant and i don´t want to use the portrayal of him being the youngest and the one getting bullied to determine something, if you wanted to push it, you could though, Black Maria physically weak, very slow but at least she had also a variety of attack patterns, from poison to fire to weapon, and her webs are dangerous for CQC fighters, as we could see with Sanji.
WW is the best in at least three categories, whereas the others have one in which they excel. And while the gap between them and WW is not as big as Cracker and Katakuri, it´s still significant enough to take note of.
To be also honest and transparent, part of WW´s feats, at least in my opinion how to judge them, should also be in context against who he is performing those feats against. Jinbe´s Haki, the one he used before his final move (which was like a next step almost), was hardly penetrated by Big Mom (which made the F6´s equals, Pero and Daifuku, not believe their eyes btw) and held up against Akainu to a certain extent, and WW managed to penetrate that (with Fang Pistol, which Jinbe consequently then dodged) until Jinbe got completely serious.
Yeah we also saw that with Sasaki. I am not applying Ulti´s feat, which i never argued against, to all dinosaurs. Sasaki was nearly taken out by Gaon Cannon. And once again, that´s literally the opposite of hax.
You argued with Franky, Chopper and Luffy, and that Franky was once equal to Luffy (in W7, which was baseless) to fighting a similar strength character like Chopper was, and that hence his past feat of fighting Luffy is not the decisive factor anymore, but the fact that they fought a similarly strong character.
Which was nonsense considering Franky went out of fighting Fukuro much better than Chopper did vs Kumadori, Chopper nearly died based on his own ability and Franky needed to save him. And here you are repeating it again, and it is still nonsense, not a fact.
I am not thinking Jinbe is stronger, he has proven it several times, and fighting a similar strength opponent has never lead to the assumption that the characters who have done so are of similar strength, and you have failed thus far to provide any reason why it is supposed to be the case except you want to believe it´s the case. And this is regardless of whether someone believes that WW is superior to BM and Sasaki (which he undeniably was btw but does not have to be for the point) because it is equally undeniable that Jinbe completely outclassed him (low to mid, just like Luffy vs Blueno after he used G2) and that Franky and Robin had to give their all and achieved a last second victory.
Regarding the Franky and Luffy stuff, i like that you gleefully fail to address different point that are inconvenient for you but let´s go once again:
1) Luffy and Franky never fought to a draw, they literally had two or three exchanges, then the Galley-La shipwrights intervened.
2) Luffy used G2 to low/mid diff Blueno, before he was evenly matched with him and admitted he can´t beat him without G2 (which can be interpreted in different ways, for example fast enough to reach Robin), he was even about to use G3 until Blueno fainted.
3) Luffy, Chopper and Franky fought and beat a similar strength guy (at least in douriki, one should also regard their individual abilities they excelled at but for the sake of the point, let´s say they were completely equal) with Blueno, Kumadori and Fukuro. If we apply your train of thought and logic, the difficulty with which they accomplished this should not matter, they beat a similar guy and that´s it.
Yet, after beating Blueno, Luffy literally proved that that train of thought is completely nonsense, because he went and matched a guy, and ultimately beat a guy, that both Franky and Chopper could not even dream to touch at that point, as both literally admit, hence the pages i posted above.
4) Whether Luffy had more in W7 or not is irrelevant to the point you are making since the crucial aspect happened in Enies Lobby, meaning Chopper, Franky and Luffy beating their respective opponents like Robin, Franky and Jinbe did in this arc. And yes, Luffy had those abilities already in W7, as he pointed out that he thought about it after the loss against Aokiji.
So, i know you were trying to be funny with the emojis, i would prefer you trying to stand on point though, the point you yourself tried to make and that was disproven.
And, to further clarify this, regardless of whether Luffy needed to prove it since he literally destroyed Blueno, a similar strength combatant as Kumadori and Fukuro, Luffy did prove his vast superiority over Franky and Chopper shortly after against Lucci, something Jinbe has not yet done so in this arc considering his victory has happened 3 chapters ago. But Jinbe has proven his superiority before, something that for some reason, you fail to acknowledge.
Jinbe had his feats in Impel Down, Marineford, WCI and this arc. He did fight a commander level Ace (who was already a pirate for 3 years) 5 days to a draw, he did match Big Mom and made the F6´s contemporaries in strength not believe their eyes and got away with a slight bruise to his hand against Akainu and the list goes on. These things do not magically vanish, just like Luffy matching and beating Lucci did not vanish, otherwise you would need to argue, based on the people they fought before, Luffy = Franky = Chopper.
Chopper and Franky, that argument still does not work considering their respective condition after their fights.
And yes, while i do agree that someone should not be automatically be considered above until we have something substantial to compare, Franky and Robin unfortunately did not show something to deny that notion.
But just from Jinbe´s hype and portrayal, he could also be considered stronger than Zoro and Sanji, which for Zoro definitely is not the case anymore, and probably for Sanji neither, so the point you made here is at least viable in the context of these three.
Fighting a similar strength character is irrelevant, the manner and the feats you showcase in doing so is relevant and that´s what´s ultimately deciding superiority, not roundabout and far-fetched logic.
And i will also have you know that i was actually someone who saw them as capable of beating F6, as i have pointed out here in several threads, case in point the posts in two threads i made far before match-ups became obvious.
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-the-main-opponents-of-the-6-weaker-shs.4188/
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/non-monster-strawhats-vs-grandfleet.4307/#post-466662
And my insistence on Jinbe´s superiority is by no means to undermine the mid trio, they are legitimate mid tiers and can match up to veterans, F6 or Vice Admirals respectively. Jinbe is just that much stronger though and in yonkou commander sphere, a level the mid trio might get at the end of the series.
