Questions & Mysteries Why top tiers can't turn their blades black?

[ZenZu]

So Zoro used Armament haki to cut Daz bones.

By extension this means Zoro also use armament haki in Skypiea to cut Ohms sword since it was stated multiple times time so be As hard as steel

But the difference is Zoro used An "air slash" to cut Ohms sword. Meaning he used an invisble haki projectile attack to cut

Now let's go back to Hyogoro's training. When he decides to demonstrate the Barrier haki attack for Luffy he says Ryou is used by swordsmen to cut steel. But all throughout the training, at no point did Hyogoro demonstrate Ryou with a sword for Luffy because Luffy wouldn't need that.

If Armament hardening is extensible from Coating your body to coating your sword and then advanced armament is projecting Haki literally off your body then for swordsmen Advanced armament Haki is projecting haki in form of a sword slash

And that's exactly what Zoro did in Skypiea. He projected haki with a sword slash.

Ok, but not sure if my question was clearly answered, just so there's no confusion I'm going to ask you again.

Are you saying:

1.Air slashes utilize barrier haki by default (a function of how they work)?
or
2.You can imbue haki into them (and that is what Zoro did in Skypiea)?

Seems to me you're saying the former (option 1)

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

I'm talking about the fundamentals of an air slash needing advanced haki.

There are no "fundamentals of an air slash"

One Piece has at least five different power systems just for an attack like an air slash... There's Zoro's swords, CP-9's rankyaku, Caeser's devil fruit, Skypiea dials, probably Nami and Franky technology, there's even an "Elbaf secret technique" that's some ridiculous inexplicable Sword slash

There's no fundamentals to alot of shit in One piece, alot of abilities have multiple ways of possibly pulling them off...

But Zoro specifically has been explained to have not been able to cut steel until he used able haki technique and only after that did he ever use an air slash and he happens to have cut steel with it


You would have to make a case for Zoro to have TWO SEPERATE Methods of cutting steel if you think they aren't the same here... You would have to say Zoro needed a flashbackand to get pummelled by Daz bones to cut his steel with haki and yet he cut Ohm's steel just by practicing some random unconnected ability and then just doing it

Post automatically merged: Nov 28, 2019

Air slashes utilize barrier haki by default (a function of how they work)?

For Zoro yes.... Because Zoro didn't learn Rankyaku or Elbaf spear or have weird technology.... Zoro trained in haki and then used it and then developed Air slashes based on that haki training he used.... That's Zoro... Not Rob lucci

 

[nik87]

I'm talking about Oda here. Zoro goes as he goes, there isn't even a hint of air slashes being advanced haki. Knowing how Oda does things there would atleast be some foreshadowing going on. That same arc he had the perfect opportunity facing Enel yet failed to make a Logia tangible.

At best what Oda does now is retcon air slashes to be ryou, the original intentions were clear when he failed to hint at or foreshadow a core SH member casually using advanced haki the entirety of preskip.

You really want me to believe Zoro used advanced haki here against this pacifista hardly affecting it [1], while Luffy used basic haki to one shot the pacifista and Oda put emphasis on him using haki [2] ? Lmao y'all are wildin.

Whether flying slashes are Haki themselves or something else that can be coated in Haki, it is uncertain still and I am not claiming it to be one or the other with absolute certainty. However, one thing is clear - Zoro struck the tree leaves back in Alabasta and they were not cut.
The only logical explanation for that is that the sword was coated in Haki and created a layer between the sharp edge and the tree leaves.

In that moment he was trying to cut steel so whatever he learnt in that moment he associated it with cutting steel. Enter Enel, he isnt made of steel, isnt he? So, why expect from Zoro to use a technique he associates with cutting steel against someone who isnt made of steel? As I said, there was no one to explain to him what the Haki was good for.

On the other hand, let's say Zoro somehow miraculously knew what it is and then what? Hits Enel, Enel dies mid-arc, nullifies all the symbolic meanings which that arc has and removes Luffy as the only one possible to stand against God? The plans were obviously different and even if Zoro knew about Haki, which he possibly couldnt have, it would be avoided that Zoro does anything against Enel.
Another thing, you wonder why Zoro couldnt hit Enel while instead, you should wonder why Luffy could.

Haki is not be all end all, it is an additional layer of the total damage formula. Haki on pre TS Strawhats doesnt change anything, they were too weak. Anyway, Zoro is irrelevant to Enel, everyone who didnt have the rubber resistance to electricity was and there is also Enel's CoO so whether Zoro had CoA or not it would not matter anyway. Sure, it is possible that Oda didnt fully develop the concept of Haki before TS but he always had it in his mind, from chapter 1 when Shanks used CoC or at least since he introduced the first logia around chapter 100.

 

[ZenZu]

There are no "fundamentals of an air slash"

One Piece has at least five different power systems just for an attack like an air slash... There's Zoro's swords, CP-9's rankyaku, Caeser's devil fruit, Skypiea dials, probably Nami and Franky technology, there's even an "Elbaf secret technique" that's some ridiculous inexplicable Sword slash

There's no fundamentals to alot of shit in One piece, alot of abilities have multiple ways of possibly pulling them off...

But Zoro specifically has been explained to have not been able to cut steel until he used able haki technique and only after that did he ever use an air slash and he happens to have cut steel with it


You would have to make a case for Zoro to have TWO SEPERATE Methods of cutting steel if you think they aren't the same here... You would have to say Zoro needed a flashbackand to get pummelled by Daz bones to cut his steel with haki and yet he cut Ohm's steel just by practicing some random unconnected ability and then just doing it

I'm not making a case for them not being the same thing, Zoro could have used the idea of cutting steel to bring out haki a couple of times (in Alabasta and Skypeia).

Either way intent matters, what you're claiming is it's confirmed every air slash he ever threw was advanced haki.

What I'm saying is, you can imbue haki into an air slash (which when he had the intent to cut steel it may have occured), but an air slash can exist without haki.

For Zoro yes.... Because Zoro didn't learn Rankyaku or Elbaf spear or have weird technology.... Zoro trained in haki and then used it and then developed Air slashes based on that haki training he used.... That's Zoro... Not Rob lucci

Who else falls under this category? Swordsman in general (let's exclude Kaku's slashes for w.e reason because of ryankyaku)? Does Mihawk fall under the same category as Zoro?

So Zoro was using this advanced haki the entirety of pre timeskip and the author didn't do anything to highlight this?

Zoro used "advanced" haki here against pacifista hardly affecting it [1]
Luffy used basic haki to one shot the pacifista and Oda put emphasis on him using haki as a difference between pre skip and post [2]

Whether flying slashes are Haki themselves or something else that can be coated in Haki, it is uncertain still and I am not claiming it to be one or the other with absolute certainty. However, one thing is clear - Zoro struck the tree leaves back in Alabasta and they were not cut.
The only logical explanation for that is that the sword was coated in Haki and created a layer between the sharp edge and the tree leaves.

In that moment he was trying to cut steel so whatever he learnt in that moment he associated it with cutting steel. Enter Enel, he isnt made of steel, isnt he? So, why expect from Zoro to use a technique he associates with cutting steel against someone who isnt made of steel? As I said, there was no one to explain to him what the Haki was good for.

On the other hand, let's say Zoro somehow miraculously knew what it is and then what? Hits Enel, Enel dies mid-arc, nullifies all the symbolic meanings which that arc has and removes Luffy as the only one possible to stand against God? The plans were obviously different and even if Zoro knew about Haki, which he possibly couldnt have, it would be avoided that Zoro does anything against Enel.
Another thing, you wonder why Zoro couldnt hit Enel while instead, you should wonder why Luffy could.

Haki is not be all end all, it is an additional layer of the total damage formula. Haki on pre TS Strawhats doesnt change anything, they were too weak. Anyway, Zoro is irrelevant to Enel, everyone who didnt have the rubber resistance to electricity was and there is also Enel's CoO so whether Zoro had CoA or not it would not matter anyway. Sure, it is possible that Oda didnt fully develop the concept of Haki before TS but he always had it in his mind, from chapter 1 when Shanks used CoC or at least since he introduced the first logia around chapter 100.

I used Enel as an example of Oda missing an opportunity to foreshadow something there, there were no hints to Zoro using advanced haki with every air slash he ever used. Cutting steel might have brought that out, but that doesn't apply to all of his air slashes.

Like I said, at best Oda would have to retcon his air slashes for that to be the case.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

I'm not making a case for them not being the same thing, Zoro could have used the idea of cutting steel to bring out haki a couple of times (in Alabasta and Skypeia).

Either way intent matters, what you're claiming is it's confirmed every air slash he ever threw was advanced haki.

What I'm saying is, you can imbue haki into an air slash (which when he had the intent to cut steel it may have occured), but an air slash can exist without haki.


Who else falls under this category? Swordsman in general (let's exclude Kaku's slashes for w.e reason because of ryankyaku)? Does Mihawk fall under the same category as Zoro?

So Zoro was using this advanced haki the entirety of pre timeskip and the author didn't do anything to highlight this?

Zoro used "advanced" haki here against pacifista hardly affecting it [1]
Luffy used basic haki to one shot the pacifista and Oda put emphasis on him using haki as a difference between pre skip and post [2]




I used Enel as an example of Oda missing an opportunity to foreshadow something there, there was absolutely no hints to Zoro using advanced haki with every air slash he ever used. Cutting steel might have brought that out, but that doesn't apply to all of his air slashes.

Like I said, at best Oda would have to retcon his air slashes for that to be the case.

I don't see this "Oda didn't highlight Zoro using advanced armament" statement as an argument here

We lute rally just learned that Zoro cutting steel was in itself haki so it's not really a point to say we should be known all the way back then that Zoro's slashes were Armament haki

Zoro first uses an air slash AFTER learning to cut steel so there's already correlation to that extent. Plus I sort of pointed out that Advanced armament is definitely not just making barriers for swordsmen since Hyogoro taught Luffy without a sword implying there's something else this looks like with a sword.

If you don't think Zoro's air slashes are Projecting haki then what do you expect advanced Armament haki for swordsmen is gonna be like

 

[ZenZu]

I don't see this "Oda didn't highlight Zoro using advanced armament" statement as an argument here

We lute rally just learned that Zoro cutting steel was in itself haki so it's not really a point to say we should be known all the way back then that Zoro's slashes were Armament haki

Zoro first uses an air slash AFTER learning to cut steel so there's already correlation to that extent. Plus I sort of pointed out that Advanced armament is definitely not just making barriers for swordsmen since Hyogoro taught Luffy without a sword implying there's something else this looks like with a sword.

If you don't think Zoro's air slashes are Projecting haki then what do you expect advanced Armament haki for swordsmen is gonna be like

Like I said, Oda made it a big deal highlighting specific details on the breath of all things, the will of the swordsman, the intention to cut etc. That doesn't correlate to every air slash ever thrown needing haki, if anything that goes against the core concept of "intention"

Suit yourself though, Daz Bonez blocked an advanced haki slash by Mihawk without trouble.

I'd rather roll with the safer bet, that you can choose to use haki with these air slashes, you already admit air slashes can exist without haki (Kaku, Elbaf). Don't know why it's suddenly hard to believe other swordsman can't do the same...

I give Oda more credit than having a main character running around casually using advanced haki the whole time, but never hinting or highlighting it. His advanced haki slashes were being cancelled by hakiless rankyakus by Kaku (i know haki isn't the be all end all but, that's odd regardless), the list would go on forever.

Heck the first thing Oda does Post skip is highlight the difference haki made against the pacifista as a direct comparison to pre timeskip when the same strawhats couldn't dent that thing. That makes no narrative sense whatsoever, and is terrible writing at best.

 

[HA001]

Like I said, Oda made it a big deal highlighting specific details on the breath of all things, the will of the swordsman, the intention to cut etc. That doesn't correlate to every air slash ever thrown needing haki, if anything that goes against the core concept of "intention"

Suit yourself though, Daz Bonez blocked an advanced haki slash by Mihawk without trouble.

I'd rather roll with the safer bet, that you can choose to use haki with these air slashes, we already know air slashes can exist without haki (Kaku, Elbaf). Don't know why it's suddenly hard to believe other swordsman can't do the same...

I give Oda more credit than having a main character running around casually using advanced haki the whole time, but never hinting or highlighting it. His advanced haki slashes were being cancelled by hakiless rankyakus by Kaku (i know haki isn't the be all end all but, that's odd regardless), the list would go on forever.

Heck the first thing Oda does Post skip is highlight the difference haki made against the pacifista as a direct comparison to pre timeskip when the same strawhats couldn't dent that thing. That makes no narrative sense whatsoever, and is terrible writing at best.

Do you believe when he cut monet was acoa ?

 

[RiShin]

Lmao if air slashes are an advance form of haki.T bone must have it too because he can use air slashes and he was a marine captain at that time.

Easy answer is, you can combine haki into your air slashes..

 

[ZenZu]

Do you believe when he cut monet was acoa ?

I don't know for sure, it's a possibility that it follows the same concept. Though one thing Oda has always emphasized when it comes to Zoro and elite swordsman, is intention to cut. Air slashes or not.

Haki is Oda's most mishandled creation, he still hasn't laid down rules and limitations that come with it. And seems to be making stuff up on the go.

What I'm gathering though is depending on the type of will you have, there are subforms of Haki. For example, Usopp's version of observation is different from the standard observation. He can see clearer from insane distances. This seems like a sniper specific manifestation of observation, a manifestation of his will.

So I think it's possible the breath of all things is a swordsman specific manifestation of armament, where you have the sense of what you want to cut. It's likely Zoro was able to dig deep and without knowing utilize this haki in certain occasions where he was really focused on achieving a cutting task. Every air slash needing haki behind it, is beyond me.

 

[Nidai_Kitetsu]

There is a possibility Zoro knows the type advanced CoA that Sentoumaru used to deflect Luffy without making a direct contact. I dont see any other logical explanation of Zoro cutting Monet with a flying slash.

That being said, every flying slash uses advanced CoA is a baseless speculation. If that is true, Zoro and T-Bone used advanced CoA so early in the series, smh.

 

[nik87]

I think you guys should forget about the word Advanced. Nothing advanced about haki flow in general, it is advanced for Luffy.
Fodder soldiers in Amazon Lily were using Haki flow on their arrows. A power that comes from the body and FLOWS into the sword/arrow.
Luffy is the one without a medium which can have haki poured into it so for him the flow is advanced because he needs to make it into either a blast or into the "destruction from inside" thing while those who use weapons dont need blasting and destruction, doesnt mean that they cant learn it, like in case with Rayleigh but they do not have use for it necessarily in actual combat, like we saw against Kizaru.

 

[ZoroGang]

Lmao if air slashes are an advance form of haki.T bone must have it too because he can use air slashes and he was a marine captain at that time.

Easy answer is, you can combine haki into your air slashes..

How would you apply for the haki to the slashes and make it stick? Unless the slash itself is haki

Post automatically merged: Nov 28, 2019

There is a possibility Zoro knows the type advanced CoA that Sentoumaru used to deflect Luffy without making a direct contact. I dont see any other logical explanation of Zoro cutting Monet with a flying slash.

That being said, every flying slash uses advanced CoA is a baseless speculation. If that is true, Zoro and T-Bone used advanced CoA so early in the series, smh.

They did it’s not a big deal . Zoro unlocked ryou in alabasta and was using flying slashes by skypiea. They was using obs haki in skypiea to. Shanks used coc in chapter 1.

 

[nik87]

There is also the possibility that Zoro used Haki flow way before Alabasta if flying slashes are Haki itself.
Back in Arlong Park, Zoro uses Dragon Twister which looks like a flying slash.
In that case, what Zoro used against Mr.1's steel was Hardening but since it wasnt shaded black, back then we couldnt realize it.
However, it seems clear that he used external flow against the tree leaves.

 

[Finalbeta]

It shows us how Zoro will only be capable of turning Enma black by EoS or close.

 

[Nidai_Kitetsu]

They did it’s not a big deal . Zoro unlocked ryou in alabasta and was using flying slashes by skypiea. They was using obs haki in skypiea to. Shanks used coc in chapter 1.

Its a big deal for the consistency of Oda's writing. You learn normal haki first -> then advanced haki, that should be the logical learning flow. Why would a couple of swordsman use advanced CoA so early in the story without knowing themselves?

If you want to label a flying slash as advanced haki pre-timeskip, we need more proof or direct statements. "Zoro cut steel with flying slash" is not a good argument.

 

[Kejon]

They can't do it, because they also have other means of fighting. Only swordsmen, who are really dedicated can do it.

 

[Zowo]

They can't do it, because they also have other means of fighting. Only swordsmen, who are really dedicated can do it.

odenvista

 

[ZoroGang]

Its a big deal for the consistency of Oda's writing. You learn normal haki first -> then advanced haki, that should be the logical learning flow. Why would a couple of swordsman use advanced CoA so early in the story without knowing themselves?

If you want to label a flying slash as advanced haki pre-timeskip, we need more proof or direct statements. "Zoro cut steel with flying slash" is not a good argument.

Only zoro didn’t know. Tbone is a respected marine captain. Zoro learned how to flow his haki in alabasta plain and simple. And then in the next arc used a flying slash that destroyed steel. You need haki to cut steel simple as that.

 

[Kejon]

odenvista

Too bad for them.

 

[Nidai_Kitetsu]

Only zoro didn’t know. Tbone is a respected marine captain. Zoro learned how to flow his haki in alabasta plain and simple. And then in the next arc used a flying slash that destroyed steel. You need haki to cut steel simple as that.

There are many problems with this assumption.

Firstly, Zoro destroyed Hachi's sword in Alabasta

Spoiler

He didnt need any advanced CoA, he destroyed with brute force

Secondly, I guess you guys are referring to Zoro vs Ohm here. Zoro's first flying slash (36 pound canon) was deflected by Ohm's iron whip. If it was haki, why didnt it cut through in the first instance?

Spoiler

Then Zoro used his 108 pound canon which broke through the defence of Ohm.

Thirdly, there is probably a confusion related to translation here, I saw some unofficial translation of Ohm's statement during the 108 pound canon attack,
"he cut through my iron cloud"

The official translation of this panel is

Spoiler

Stephen translated it as,
Ohm: {He knocked back my steel clouds?!!}

Think logically, 36 pound canon was not strong enough, so 108 pound canon was used to break through Ohm's defense and knock him out with brute force, what does haki got to do with it?