Speculations Why "Wings" does not mean Zoro = Sanji in strength

yorosenpai

yorosenpai

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#22
#22
Franosuke said:
After that stupid livestream thread involving the head writer for the...*sigh*....live action one piece series, I feel the need to properly examine the whole "wings" narrative and why it doesn't refer to Zoro and Sanji being equal in strength.

All the way back in Volume 73 SBS, Oda used the same Japanese kanji to refer to Zoro and Sanji as Luffy's "wings" as Robin did in chapter 1020. You can see this explanation here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1421911014480568320

Most English versions of this SBS do not directly include the word "wings" in their description, but rather they say that Zoro and Sanji are "both valuable, trustworthy men who have Luffy's back." The context of the SBS question matters a lot in this case. The reader presented a compilation of every time Zoro and Sanji referred to each other, noting that Zoro has never called Sanji by his name and lamenting the fact that the two of them don't get along. In response, Oda is basically trying to encourage the reader to focus on what they have in common rather than their differences. Here is the full sentence:

"While they may not get along well, they are both valuable, trustworthy men who have Luffy's back, so let's forgive them for their squabbling."

Think about this: why would Oda respond to a question complaining about Zoro and Sanji's personal relationship by power-scaling? "Yeah, they may argue a lot, but they're equally strong!" versus "Yeah, they may argue a lot, but they are both just as fundamental to making Luffy the Pirate King!" Which sounds like a more logical response given the context of the question?

Furthermore, let's examine the context of Robin's specific statement in the current situation instead of Oda's words from long ago. Why did Oda choose to insert this line here?
  • Sanji just experienced one of the lowest moments of the series.
    • He was humiliated by Black Maria, forcing him to swallow his pride and call for Robin's help while all of Onigashima heard it. That is just brutal for Oda to do to him. And keep in mind that all of this is happening right during/after the rooftop fight where Luffy and Zoro are getting to fight fricking Kaido and Big Mom. In my opinion, this is Oda's way of saying, "no matter how bad Sanji may look at times, he is still one of Luffy's two most trusted men. He is still part of the monster trio."
  • Jinbe just joined the crew
    • After Jinbe joined the crew, many people speculated that Sanji's spot in the M3 would be in danger. In fact, some people thought that he would even overtake Zoro as the #2 and RHM. Again, this is Oda's way of saying, "no matter who joins the crew, Zoro and Sanji will be Luffy's top 2 men." Luffy, Zoro, Sanji. That will never change.
  • Sanji had several consecutive arcs where Oda seemed to purposely make him look "uncool."
    • Even aside from the Black Maria thing, Oda seemed to have no problem with not giving Sanji much shine. He was absent for the majority of Dressrosa and the entirety of Zou. In WCI, even though it was an arc centered around him, it was more meant to show the depth of his character and the beauty of his kindness/personality. He didn't really have many moments that the fanbase would consider "hype."

So why is it Zoro & Sanji and not anyone else if Oda wasn't talking about strength?

Well, strength definitely does play a role, but it is not the main/only deciding factor. Zoro & Sanji being "valuable, trustworthy men who have Luffy's back" is dependent on them being able to support him in any situation. Someone like Nami, although she is a trusted advisor for Luffy, cannot support him in battle nor can she lead the rest of the crew in battle if Luffy is absent. This is evidenced by Luffy saying in Sabaody that he, Zoro and Sanji needed to split up and lead different groups if they wanted to get out alive.

Both Zoro and Sanji have been shown to be far above the rest of the crew in combat ability that Luffy would trust only them specifically to handle the lives of the rest of the crew. However, they have also been shown to be capable leaders in his absence. While Zoro is obviously the first choice and his status as the "unofficial" vice-captain in the crew shouldn't really be questioned, I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that Sanji is always the next choice and he tends to serve as the protector of the weak members of the crew. This is evidenced by how he took charge of the rest of the crew during Dressrosa/Zou when Luffy & Zoro were absent. While Luffy & Zoro tend to recklessly bulldoze into battle to find the strong enemies, Sanji tends to stay back and protect. This is essentially exactly what happened at the beginning of the raid.

I have a lot more to potentially add on, but this is basically my two cents on the matter. Thoughts?
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I agree I want to had this too:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465294274308689922
This is the only instance in all One Piece that we have this kind of connection draw by Oda.
If people are willing to use wings to show which hierarchy there is in the straw-hat pirate well I will tell them that Oda is seeing Luffy&Zoro exactly like Roger&Raeligh.
 
Necrohol

Necrohol

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#24
#24
Franosuke said:
Exactly! It's literally fucking INSANE that Sanji is as strong as he is while being a cook who only uses his goddamn feet lmfao. I find that to be the biggest reason why it feels "insulting" for Sanji to be Zoro's equal. To me, it would just invalidate Zoro's role in the crew and all of the hard work he puts into training and getting stronger.

This is why I push so hard against Zoro = Sanji, especially because I can understand why some people may think that, so I treat those takes seriously. I can't understand Sanji > Zoro or Sanji >= Zoro takes, so I don't take them seriously.

In contrast, even though I heavily disagree with the notion that Zoro = Sanji, I can recognize that there are elements in the story that definitely seem to portray them as rivals and such. But it just strikes me as very presumptuous to take the "wings" reference as some sort of confirmation that they are equally strong
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Oda is just stoking the fires of war. As you said, there are elements that give credence to that notion. I used to think that Sanji was extreme diff for Zoro until recently. Now I think that Oda was baiting us Sanji fans into believing that. I'm not mad, not anymore. At least he beat Queen. Queen is strong as fuck, just not as much as King.
 
Salah WG

Salah WG

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#29
#29
They are his Wings simply because he can't Win Final War without them
In Straw Hats Crew, there are Multiple Combinations of Three:

Luffy - Zoro - Nami ---> Triggers of One Piece who basically represent the Key to Uniting This World
Luffy - Zoro - Sanji ---> Pirate King & his Wings who basically represent the Trio who are most needed to Win Final War
Nami - Franky - Jinbe ---> Ship Leaders who basically represent the Trio who will use Ancient Weapons
Luffy - Zoro - Usopp ---> CoC Users who basically represent Army Leaders (Grand Fleet - Wano Alliance - Elbaf Army) in Final War
... etc (There are much much more Combinations)
 
Franosuke

Franosuke

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#31
#31
Salah WG said:
They are his Wings simply because he can't Win Final War without them
In Straw Hats Crew, there are Multiple Combinations of Three:

Luffy - Zoro - Nami ---> Triggers of One Piece who basically represent the Key to Uniting This World
Luffy - Zoro - Sanji ---> Pirate King & his Wings who basically represent the Trio who are most needed to Win Final War
Nami - Franky - Jinbe ---> Ship Leaders who basically represent the Trio who will use Ancient Weapons
Luffy - Zoro - Usopp ---> CoC Users who basically represent Army Leaders (Grand Fleet - Wano Alliance - Elbaf Army) in Final War
... etc (There are much much more Combinations)
Click to expand...
That is interesting, especially the Nami/Franky/Jinbe ancient weapons thing. This actually goes really well with your land/sea/sky theory about Zoro. Jinbe leading Shirahoshi (poseidon) on Noah w/ the sea kings for the final war; Franky building pluton -- apparently pluton is a general term for crystal rocks found beneath earth's surface, which would represent the "land" portion. And perhaps uranus is related to some sort of aerial-based weapon. Uranus in greek mythology is the sky god. Also nami wields "zeus"
 
Manos. AsuraZoro

Manos. AsuraZoro

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#32
#32
I believe the term wings it is related to power and it makes sense..
Sanji's opponent will beat everyone combine bellow sanji, jinbe is included from this arc and on.
So yes, he is one of Luffy's wings and that term is for his power.
The thing is that even if Zoro's opponent beats sanji that doesn't make him less of a wing because what sanji does in fighting in can't be done even by the combine power of the rest of the crew.
 
yorosenpai

yorosenpai

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#33
#33
Zoro Sanji rivality is exactly like this one:



The Wing is nothing more than saying Luffy need a fighter and a cook to become the pirate King :milaugh:
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Salah WG said:
They are his Wings simply because he can't Win Final War without them
In Straw Hats Crew, there are Multiple Combinations of Three:

Luffy - Zoro - Nami ---> Triggers of One Piece who basically represent the Key to Uniting This World
Luffy - Zoro - Sanji ---> Pirate King & his Wings who basically represent the Trio who are most needed to Win Final War
Nami - Franky - Jinbe ---> Ship Leaders who basically represent the Trio who will use Ancient Weapons
Luffy - Zoro - Usopp ---> CoC Users who basically represent Army Leaders (Grand Fleet - Wano Alliance - Elbaf Army) in Final War
... etc (There are much much more Combinations)
Click to expand...
Dont forget this:
Luffy-Zoro like Roger-Raeligh
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465294274308689922
 
Ask D question

Ask D question

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#34
#34
:lawsigh:

The black maria moment was to show a bunch of character development moments, like showing that sanji relies on his crew and later have all the moments during ch 1031


Sanji had his hype, for instance off screening daifuku, speed blitzing oven, getting called strong by doflamingo etc...

He lost a few encounters but oda always made sure to nerf him, by either having him not know his opponent's ability or be damaged, even now we find out that he was always limiting his flammes


Zoro is stronger obviously, sanji is just insanely close behind, that's the whole point of the dynamic
Post automatically merged:

Necrohol said:
Oda is just stoking the fires of war. As you said, there are elements that give credence to that notion. I used to think that Sanji was extreme diff for Zoro until recently. Now I think that Oda was baiting us Sanji fans into believing that. I'm not mad, not anymore. At least he beat Queen. Queen is strong as fuck, just not as much as King.
Click to expand...
Sanji always was extreme diff for zoro, how can you not believe it after the last chapter lmao?

And can we stop the "I'm a fan but..." come on, it's just cringe
 
Salah WG

Salah WG

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#36
#36
Franosuke said:
That is interesting, especially the Nami/Franky/Jinbe ancient weapons thing. This actually goes really well with your land/sea/sky theory about Zoro. Jinbe leading Shirahoshi (poseidon) on Noah w/ the sea kings for the final war; Franky building pluton -- apparently pluton is a general term for crystal rocks found beneath earth's surface, which would represent the "land" portion. And perhaps uranus is related to some sort of aerial-based weapon. Uranus in greek mythology is the sky god. Also nami wields "zeus"
Click to expand...
Yes, i'm 99% sure about these Trio using Ancient Weapons at the End, however they will be their Guide, rather than their "Owners"
In my opinion, Shirahoshi is the one who have Poseidon Power but Jinbe will guide her & Sea Kings.
Vegapunk will build Pluton & awaken it but it will be Franky who uses it.
Dragon is the one who will Unleash Uranus Power but Nami will be the one who to target/aim/guide it

The reason these Six Characters are need is cuz they can't do it on their own.
Only Vegapunk have the Technology & Mind needed to build Pluton but he needs Franky's Blueprints
Shirahoshi can Control Sea Kings but she isn't Experienced for War so she needs Jinbe's Help & Guidance
Dragon have Uranus somehow imo, but he needs Nami's Weather Balls to be able to Unleash it on the World (D. will cause a Storm again)
 
Necrohol

Necrohol

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#38
#38
Ask D question said:
Sanji always was extreme diff for zoro, how can you not believe it after the last chapter lmao?
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How can you?


Ask D question said:
And can we stop the "I'm a fan but..." come on, it's just cringe
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First of all, who the fuck are you to tell me how to express myself? I am a fan and you do not get to tell me if I am or not a fan or how I'll express myself. Contemplate your insignificance.

Second only people who are 11 talk about "cringe". Please grow up, grow a brain and return when you have something intelligent to add to the discussion. Until then, be quiet for the adults are talking.
 
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