Powers & Abilities Will Zoro surpass Roger in power?

[comrade]

Some argue that Zoro will be the strongest swordsman who ever existed, since this is the essence of a Shounen. Do you believe Zoro will surpass even Roger in strength, even though his end goal is a guy who stands below Kaido, who in turn is below Roger? Or will he just be the WSS in the great era of piracy?

I personally do not believe that Zoro will surpass Roger in strength. I might go as far as to say he would be an inbetweener, between Kaido and Roger (I see Roger high diffing Kaido, so Zoro might be able to extreme diff Kaido, while losing extreme diff to Roger).

Reason being, that the WSS was portrayed as being a rank below the PK; PK right hand man material. Yes, it's true that becoming PK is more difficult because you need to conquer the seas and build up a crew, but the PK ends up as the strongest anyways. Roger was the strongest (alongside Whitebeard) and Luffy will be the strongest too.

@Sentinel @playa4321 @Zenos7 @ShishioIsBack @nik87 @HA001 @Bogard @Admiral Lee Hung @Red Admiral @Cinera @Finalbeta etc.

 

[Finalbeta]

This is what happened:

Whether it will be Mihawk or Roger that's debatable I suppose but we will never know for sure

 

[ShishioIsBack]

Yeah Zoro beats Roger EoS

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

I'm not convinced one way or another.

From a purely hype/portrayal perspective, the Pirate King should still have the edge over the WSS, even if it is the Greatest Swordsman of All Time imo.

From a strength/feats perspective, I'm still not really convinced Roger doesn't fall under the category of a Swordsman. Maybe he has other fighting methods aside from Swordsmanship (don't @ me, idfk) that technically don't make him fall under this title.

So it's anyone's guess at this point. Each side will make valid arguments I'm sure.

Spoiler

 

[nik87]

Some argue that Zoro will be the strongest swordsman who ever existed, since this is the essence of a Shounen. Do you believe Zoro will surpass even Roger in strength, even though his end goal is a guy who stands below Kaido, who in turn is below Roger? Or will he just be the WSS in the great era of piracy?

I personally do not believe that Zoro will surpass Roger in strength. I might go as far as to say he would be an inbetweener, between Kaido and Roger (I see Roger high diffing Kaido, so Zoro might be able to extreme diff Kaido, while losing extreme diff to Roger).

Reason being, that the WSS was portrayed as being a rank below the PK; PK right hand man material. Yes, it's true that becoming PK is more difficult because you need to conquer the seas and build up a crew, but the PK ends up as the strongest anyways. Roger was the strongest (alongside Whitebeard) and Luffy will be the strongest too.

@Sentinel @playa4321 @Zenos7 @ShishioIsBack @nik87 @HA001 @Bogard @Admiral Lee Hung @Red Admiral @Cinera @Finalbeta etc.

First off, we dont have anything to compare prime Roger with prime Kaido, their prime versions never met with each other and we do have information confirming that current Kaido was stronger than old Whitebeard plus Oden saying that if he cant beat him, nobody can(Whitebeard from 20 years ago included).

Pirate King is a title that symbolizes freedom, bold step into the unknown, learning the forbidden, freedom to choose where to die.
WSS is a strength title that puts you atop of all other(swordsmen only?) and Zoro wont be as strong as Mihawk, he will be stronger like he was than any other opponent he surpassed by a significant margin.

Zoro is the embodiment of war, a character who seeks strength specifically and nothing else so it wouldnt be surprising that he does end up as strongest character in the end but at that point Kaido would be dead so not sure if he could take him in 1vs1 if Kaido stands above all living creatures. Being the strongest in the verse is not in conflict with MC on whose side he is on anyway.

 

[comrade]

@nik87 Whitebeard was highlighted above the other Yonko on several occasions. Being called king of the seas, being hardest to take down according to Big Mom, being the equal of "even" Roger according to the narrator.

Oden saying that no one can beat him if he himself can't, obviously referred to the people within Wano, which is a closed country. Otherwise, that statement would also put Oden above Primebeard. "If I (Oden) can't beat him, then Whitebeard as well can't". Isn't really logical. Roger swatted Oden away like a fly.

 

[Worst]

It all depends on how strong Mihawk is....if Mihawk is Yonko level Zoro will be Yonko level of Mihawk is YC1/Admiral Zoro will be YC1/Admiral.....tbh I don't think he'll even get close to Roger let alone surpass him

 

[K!NG HARA$H!MA]

No

There's absolutely no need for Zoro to be stronger than Roger

At best, he'll be strong as current Kaido or whoever you see as the strongest atm

 

[ShishioIsBack]

This is gonna be a long read so apology for that


Zoro is one of the main characters in the story and it is very common in Shounen for the character aiming to be strongest of his era to end up becoming strongest of all time. I find it very hard to believe that Oda would expand up swordsmanship in One Piece through Zoro's journey, have us follow his path to becoming strongest swordsman in the World and have there be a swordsman in One Piece history superior to Zoro. It would be equivalent of there being a pirate in history of One Piece whose notoriety and status would not be surpassed by Luffy and I don't see that happening.

Where Mihwak stands in comparison to Gol D Roger
Now regarding Mihawk vs Roger, I do think Roger is stronger than Mihawk but I don't think gap between them is humongous and Roger would need an extreme difficulty fight to beat Mihawk. Well for starters I don't even think Gap between an average top tier like Shanks and Roger is big and Roger would defeat Shanks in a high difficulty fight. But there are three top tiers that I have as exceptions among even current top tiers and whose strength nearly rival Roger's and those are Mihawk, Blackbeard and Akainu and Blackbeard may have even surpassed Roger.

I wouldn't discuss Akainu for now but Mihawk particularly I have there after the events of Wano, and how much hype swordsmanship received with fighting style of Pirate King being swordsmanship and the scar on the most durable character in history being due to swordsmanship as well.

Mihawk so far has been portrayed as peak of swordsmanship in One Piece due to his title and him making a permanent black blade and most importantly being ultimate destination of one of the main character whose entire character revolves around combat strength and becoming the strongest swordsman he possibly can be.

Mihawk has a few points in favor when directly compared to Roger like Roger not being able to accomplish feats of swordsmanship good enough for the world to recognize him as strongest swordsman or his era or Roger not making a black blade. But I would still favor Roger due to his Pirate king title and the fact that he was stated to be equal to Whitebeard in his prime.

For the record I had Kaido up there with Mihawk, Blackbeard and Akainu as well but I bumped him down slightly after Wano because it just doesn't make logical sense for Kaido to be weaker in his late 30s considering he is a born freak of nature even more so than Oden and it also doesn't make logical sense for me for Oden to be that close to Mihawk (Mihawk would high diff both Oden and Kaido).

Maybe I am wrong, maybe Kaido did get stronger, maybe Mihawk is significantly weaker than Roger, maybe Mihawk is not stronger than Oden at all, maybe Zoro will never surpass Roger but so far this is how I perceive manga and it makes the most logical sense to me as far as individual strength relation between Roger, Kaido, Mihawk, Oden and EoS Zoro is concerned.

Why becoming Pirate King being harder than becoming WSS is not a valid argument
First of all Mihawk never claimed becoming pirate king is much harder it is dishonest and no different than someone saying becoming pirate king is only slightly harder, all we know is becoming pirate king is tougher than becoming World's Strongest Swordsman.

But regarding the main argument about Mihawk's statement of Becoming pirate king is tougher than surpassing Mihawk. Its like no shit becoming Pirate King is harder.
To becoming Pirate King
-You need to have strength required to go through journey around the world and deal with obstacles in the way
-You need to be charismatic enough to have ability to acquire an exceptional crew that a pirate king would
-You need to deal with 4 emperors of the sea and their crews as they are aiming for same goal and one of the emperors have one of the poneglyphs showing the way to final Island where your journey would end
-You would need to deal with Marine Admirals and rest of navy as you are essentially aiming to becoming biggest criminal in the sea.
-You need to journey around the entire world in attempt to find one remote Island
-You need to find someone who can read road poneglyphs

If doing all that is not harder than surpassing just one man than Pirate King title doesn't mean much. Like I don't understand this absurd way of thinking, no one here is claiming that Mihawk has everything it takes to be Pirate King instead just individual strength considering individual strength is literally what his entire character arc revolves around.

Anyways yeah EoS Zoro would defeat Roger in a high difficulty fight

Though like @Admiral Lee Hung it is anyone's guess at this point. Roger > EoS Zoro would make sense and EoS Zoro > Roger would also make sense

 

[Worst]

@nik87 Whitebeard was highlighted above the other Yonko on several occasions. Being called king of the seas, being hardest to take down according to Big Mom, being the equal of "even" Roger according to the narrator.

Oden saying that no one can beat him if he himself can't, obviously referred to the people within Wano, which is a closed country. Otherwise, that statement would also put Oden above Primebeard. "If I (Oden) can't beat him, then Whitebeard as well can't". Isn't really logical. Roger swatted Oden away like a fly.

Imho Oden was saying that cuz he had the best chance of Taking down Kaido, he was already in Wano and Kaido was still growing, someone from outside (WB included) might have had more trouble even if they were stronger than Oden...hell WBP had trouble enter in Wano if they had to fight Kaido they would have to deal with Wano's Samurai too and that was another story...

 

[comrade]

@ShishioIsBack I think Kaido's title or reputation as the strongest being is undisputable as for now. That title has yet to be proven wrong. Oden scarred Dragon Kaido with a cheap shot, with Kaido in his Dragon form being an easy target. But Kaido on the other hand knocked out Oden with a one handed blow in base. And just as Mihawk might one shot Kaido with a free blow, Kaido would likewise one shot Mihawk with a free blow. Kaido just gets the benefit of the doubt ("always bet on Kaido") because on top of his offensive strength, which is by no means below the offensive strength of other top tiers, he has the best durability, plus enhanced physicals by the presumably strongest zoan. I mean we have the SBS statement of Oda, where Oda implies that Kaido > Akainu directly.

Given that not even Roger or Whitebeard have a black blade, is it really wise to assume it's only because Mihawk's CoA is stronger than all of them? or is it possibly because not only strength of Haki is important but also control/flow? Like being able to perfectly channel your CoA through your blade. Unlike Roger and Whitebeard, who pumped their blades full of Haki to a point it was emitting, in order to clash with a barrier.

Even if Mihawk's CoA was stronger than Roger's (I don't believe that), who says you need exactly Mihawk's level of CoA or above for a black blade? Was Ryuma's CoA exactly on Mihawk's level or above? I think even with inferior CoA, Roger's CoA should be still strong enough for a black blade. But then again, I don't believe it is solely strength (though it plays an important role).

A black blade for me is like the black blade of martial arts. And Roger is the swordsman equivalent to Garp, who is less a martial artist than a brute. He knows Rokushiki, but you don't really see him using it; he focuses on his brute punches.

 

[OmegaPsyche]

Roger stands no chance

 

[HA001]

Roger and wb are not the end all of this story. Both failed to topple the wg and died.
Luffy will surpass roger when he is pk and then fight the wg.

 

[ShishioIsBack]

Roger stands no chance

Roger and wb are not the end all of this story. Both failed to topple the wg and died.
Luffy will surpass roger when he is pk and then fight the wg.

Then vote for Zoro in the poll lmao

Post automatically merged: Jun 4, 2020

@ShishioIsBack I think Kaido's title or reputation as the strongest being is undisputable as for now. That title has yet to be proven wrong. Oden scarred Dragon Kaido with a cheap shot, with Kaido in his Dragon form being an easy target. But Kaido on the other hand knocked out Oden with a one handed blow in base. And just as Mihawk might one shot Kaido with a free blow, Kaido would likewise one shot Mihawk with a free blow. Kaido just gets the benefit of the doubt ("always bet on Kaido") because on top of his offensive strength, which is by no means below the offensive strength of other top tiers, he has the best durability, plus enhanced physicals by the presumably strongest zoan. I mean we have the SBS statement of Oda, where Oda implies that Kaido > Akainu directly.

Problem with all that is that Kaido's actual title is "King of beasts"
It is more of a rumor that Kaido is strongest of creatures, which is interesting to me because I am more and more inclined to subscribe to @Admiral Lee Hung 's position that Kaido's title does not include humans.

According to Ace's novel Kaido was called WSC while Whitebeard was still WSM and for me to take Kaido's rumor to face value I would have to put him below Kaido as well.

Regarding that "bet on him 1v1" rumor, I mean at the end of the day its just a bet. I am not sure how Kaido got his reputation but we have seen through Oden fight Kaido isn't above taking shortcuts and cheating.

Post automatically merged: Jun 4, 2020

Even if Mihawk's CoA was stronger than Roger's (I don't believe that), who says you need exactly Mihawk's level of CoA or above for a black blade? Was Ryuma's CoA exactly on Mihawk's level or above? I think even with inferior CoA, Roger's CoA should be still strong enough for a black blade. But then again, I don't believe it is solely strength (though it plays an important role).

A black blade for me is like the black blade of martial arts. And Roger is the swordsman equivalent to Garp, who is less a martial artist than a brute. He knows Rokushiki, but you don't really see him using it; he focuses on his brute punches.

Yeah this one doesn't make a lot of sense to me because Black blade was referenced by Tengoyama after Enma's ability to suck Ryou was revealed and it was shown to be a bigger accomplishment than what ever Oden could do.

And this whole "Black Belt" thing also contradicts the fact that Mihawk himself said "Any blade can become black blade with Haki" and the black blade looks exactly like a blade coated in Haki. We have seen other weapons of black color like Kaido's club but the shade on them is not the same as shade of Hakified object.

Also that whole brute force notion doesn't work for me either because Gol D Roger has special named sword techniques. His slash on Oden is a named techniques and looks a lot like Zoro's pound ho lmao.

There just aren't enough mental gymnastics there to consider Gol D Roger anything but a swordsman who fights by coating his blade in armament Haki

 

[comrade]

Problem with all that is that Kaido's actual title is "King of beasts"
It is more of a rumor that Kaido is strongest of creatures, which is interesting to me because I am more and more inclined to subscribe to @Admiral Lee Hung 's position that Kaido's title does not include humans.

According to Ace's novel Kaido was called WSC while Whitebeard was still WSM and for me to take Kaido's rumor to face value I would have to put him below Kaido as well.

But then you have the SBS, where a fan asks if his angry mother is stronger than Akainu, with Oda randomly bringing up Kaido and saying "an angry mother is the strongest being, even stronger than Kaido". If that's not Oda saying Kaido > Akainu and Kaido > all, then what did he mean.

According to Ace's novel Kaido was called WSC while Whitebeard was still WSM and for me to take Kaido's rumor to face value I would have to put him below Kaido as well.

iirc, Kaido having the WSC title was during Whitebeard's old age. But sure, WSC might exclude humans.

 

[HA001]

Stop this shit of trying to make another magic category of swordsmanship for roger cause him being a swordsman destroyed your power level list.
Hes a swordsman with haki just like ray just like shanks just like mihawk etc.

 

[comrade]

Stop this shit of trying to make another magic category of swordsmanship for roger cause him being a swordsman destroyed your power level list.
Hes a swordsman with haki just like ray just like shanks just like mihawk etc.

Then either Mihawk is stronger than Roger, or Roger has a power greater than his swordsmanship to compensate for. But since CoC is fodder control according to some, it must be Roger's CoA and CoO that are superior, since swordsmanship and power of the sword goes to Mihawk.

 

[ShishioIsBack]

But then you have the SBS, where a fan asks if his angry mother is stronger than Akainu, with Oda randomly bringing up Kaido and saying "an angry mother is the strongest being, even stronger than Kaido". If that's not Oda saying Kaido > Akainu and Kaido > all, then what did he mean.

From Marine ford Oda only singled out Whitebeard Mihawk and Shanks as legend among men, doesn't make them all stronger than Akainu.

Again he didn't mention Gol D Roger in that statement, nor Garp, nor WB, and it is a statement where Oda is bringing someone as representation of strength right, doesn't matter who is alive and who isn't. So does that statement make Kaido strongest in history?

I mean if you think Kaido is strongest in history, it is not too bad a notion to subscribe to either, he was called WSC in Whitebeard's presence after all and Whitebeard was never ever called WSC, just WSM

 

[HA001]

Then either Mihawk is stronger than Roger, or Roger has a power greater than his swordsmanship to compensate for. But since CoC is fodder control according to some, it must be Roger's CoA and CoO that are superior, since swordsmanship and power of the sword goes to Mihawk.

Wtf is power of the sword. Get over yourself you were wrong stop making shit up.
Swordsmen with no fruit have a sword and haki thats it. Stop adding shit to suit your agenda.

 

[ShishioIsBack]

Then either Mihawk is stronger than Roger, or Roger has a power greater than his swordsmanship to compensate for. But since CoC is fodder control according to some, it must be Roger's CoA and CoO that are superior, since swordsmanship and power of the sword goes to Mihawk.

Its impossible to know what stats Roger has above Mihawk or vice versa besides Mihawk having stronger CoA. But just because of Gol D Roger's position in the world I think he would beat Mihawk extreme diff.