Zhao's All-Time Top 10 Generals
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I don't think it's accurate to say SBS beat Ou Sen, when it took Ri Boku's machinations to put Ou Sen in position to be defeated in the first place.
Ri Boku and SBS beat Ou Sen and Yo Tan Wa, and as it tends to in high level matches, the victors were the ones that made their opponents make the first mistake.
3GH is a political appointment at least as much as a meritorious one.
He may have and likely would have been the least of them, but that doesn't mean Ko Chou didn't qualify for the position, and I argue he did.
I would also argue Ko Chou being appointed as the protector of Kantan, i.e. the protector of the royal family, would logically preclude him from consideration because he was chosen by the royal family to prioritise protecting them and the capitol, rather than defending the nation at its borders or advancing its goals beyond them. For all we know, he was appointed to guarding the royal family before the 3GHs were properly revived in the wake of Ren Pa's desertion.
Ko Chou had high level intellect, leadership, a wealth of experience and excellent judgment. It's not like he was defeated under ordinary circumstances either.
You getting disrespectful with it now.
Buddha is strong as fuck and would've quite likely beaten Ji Aga and Kan Saro in a 2v1 and still have gas in the tank.
Ryuu Fuu and Kohaku Kou are also very capable fighters, and if bows and arrows don't magically disappear as they do in the manga, I trust Ko Chou and his other generals to make excellent use of them and superior tactics.
If they can manage holding the line against 3 6GGs and the Q3, they can handle the Seika Army.
We've seen similar feats against equal and greater odds, and SBS didn't repel Ordo, he simply held his ground long enough for him to have to retreat upon hearing Yan had lost two cities to a counter invasion.
This only follows if you think it sound to give a hands off commander Kan Ki credit for the achievements his 6GG talents assets that pulled off what they did without his assistance or direction.
And it still came down to the wire after Hara wrote it that the HSU arrived half a day early. It doesn't take much to recognise Hara, like with Ou Ki at Bayou, went out of his way to make Ko Chou have as a little culpability in his loss as possible.
Ri Boku and SBS beat Ou Sen and Yo Tan Wa, and as it tends to in high level matches, the victors were the ones that made their opponents make the first mistake.
3GH is a political appointment at least as much as a meritorious one.
He may have and likely would have been the least of them, but that doesn't mean Ko Chou didn't qualify for the position, and I argue he did.
I would also argue Ko Chou being appointed as the protector of Kantan, i.e. the protector of the royal family, would logically preclude him from consideration because he was chosen by the royal family to prioritise protecting them and the capitol, rather than defending the nation at its borders or advancing its goals beyond them. For all we know, he was appointed to guarding the royal family before the 3GHs were properly revived in the wake of Ren Pa's desertion.
Ko Chou had high level intellect, leadership, a wealth of experience and excellent judgment. It's not like he was defeated under ordinary circumstances either.
You getting disrespectful with it now.
Buddha is strong as fuck and would've quite likely beaten Ji Aga and Kan Saro in a 2v1 and still have gas in the tank.
Ryuu Fuu and Kohaku Kou are also very capable fighters, and if bows and arrows don't magically disappear as they do in the manga, I trust Ko Chou and his other generals to make excellent use of them and superior tactics.
If they can manage holding the line against 3 6GGs and the Q3, they can handle the Seika Army.
We've seen similar feats against equal and greater odds, and SBS didn't repel Ordo, he simply held his ground long enough for him to have to retreat upon hearing Yan had lost two cities to a counter invasion.
This only follows if you think it sound to give a hands off commander Kan Ki credit for the achievements his 6GG talents assets that pulled off what they did without his assistance or direction.
And it still came down to the wire after Hara wrote it that the HSU arrived half a day early. It doesn't take much to recognise Hara, like with Ou Ki at Bayou, went out of his way to make Ko Chou have as a little culpability in his loss as possible.
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Explain the political logic of appointing a forest hermit to the Three Great Heavens. There is none.
Now sure, Riboku revived the 3GH as another means to inspire troops on the battlefield, but if the rank was as political as you think it is, he wouldn’t have left one of the seats vacant for a decade. As soon as Shibashou rejected his appointment, Riboku would’ve chosen someone else if the rank was more about politics than merit.
Which again, it would make no sense for Riboku to not appoint him if that were the case. Or at the very least, we would’ve heard someone, anyone say that Kochou’s abilities were 3GH level, but no one ever does. Not a single individual within the manga.
For comparison, we knew Shibashou was 3GH level before Hara even showed his face.
This is factually wrong. Kochou was going to go and face Ordo in the East before Ordo charged at Seika. The only reason Kochou didn’t go was because Riboku held off from sending him once he learned Ordo was headed to Seika.
Kochou was also sent to guard Retsubi after Riboku’s “defeat” at Gyou. “Guardian of the Royal Family,” yet he went to Retsubi to prevent Qin from sending Ousen food. Lol
Name one example of the number 1 general of a major state getting repelled with a 4:1 numerical advantage. We’ve never seen anything even remotely resembling what Shibashou did to Ordo in terms of numbers.
And Ordo specifically said he was retreating because the idea that Riboku thought Shibashou could defeat him scared him. Lol
Now sure, Riboku revived the 3GH as another means to inspire troops on the battlefield, but if the rank was as political as you think it is, he wouldn’t have left one of the seats vacant for a decade. As soon as Shibashou rejected his appointment, Riboku would’ve chosen someone else if the rank was more about politics than merit.
Which again, it would make no sense for Riboku to not appoint him if that were the case. Or at the very least, we would’ve heard someone, anyone say that Kochou’s abilities were 3GH level, but no one ever does. Not a single individual within the manga.
For comparison, we knew Shibashou was 3GH level before Hara even showed his face.
This is factually wrong. Kochou was going to go and face Ordo in the East before Ordo charged at Seika. The only reason Kochou didn’t go was because Riboku held off from sending him once he learned Ordo was headed to Seika.
Kochou was also sent to guard Retsubi after Riboku’s “defeat” at Gyou. “Guardian of the Royal Family,” yet he went to Retsubi to prevent Qin from sending Ousen food. Lol
Name one example of the number 1 general of a major state getting repelled with a 4:1 numerical advantage. We’ve never seen anything even remotely resembling what Shibashou did to Ordo in terms of numbers.
And Ordo specifically said he was retreating because the idea that Riboku thought Shibashou could defeat him scared him. Lol
It was literally stated in the manga. Hou Ken's appointment was to assume the symbol of Zhao's might and to lure Ou Ki to battle. It had nothing to do with his merit as a general because he wasn't one.
The symbolism of the position is obviously a double-edged sword. It's blow to morale when they fall. Appointing someone who isn't qualified and dies/fail early would be courting disaster.
Ri Shi thought it disastrous to lose one 6GG only a year after his appointment, and Qin had another 4 of them. It would've been worse for Zhao.
This assumes we know to timeline of appointments in detail, which we don't.
Tou Jou became king in 246 BC, the same year Ren Pa left. Ri Boku and Hou Ken were newly minted 3GHs just before Bayou in 245 BC.
Ko Chou was appointed by Tou Jou, we can assume he was chosen upon his ascension, but we don't know that for a fact. For all we know he appointed when he was still the crown prince, or on the day of his crowning to protect his interested, or after Ri Boku and Hou Ken were chosen. We don't know.
We do know that Ko Chou was held in high regard. We know he made a name for himself against Yan. We know he held off extremely powerful armies off for a whole year. We know he was a cold, calculated operator with great leadership abilities and intellect. Hara wasn't trying to be subtle in having him and Ou Sen recognise the Sun Bin ploy at the same time.
Do you know what priorities mean?
Ko Chou's position wouldn't forbid him from mobilising outside of the capitol. It just means his first priority would be the capitol, i.e. the royal family.
Duke Hyou held off Go Hou Mei's 100K army with just 10K for 4 days.
That same arc, Tou held off Rin Bu Kun's 50K Chu army with 5K.
Yo Tan Wa winning at Ryouyou was way more impressive too.
Thanks for playing.
Incorrect.
Go read 514 again.
Ordo was literally about to go engage SBS before he got word of Chou Haku's activities.
It's wild how combative you are about this manga when you're frequently wrong on the simple facts.
The symbolism of the position is obviously a double-edged sword. It's blow to morale when they fall. Appointing someone who isn't qualified and dies/fail early would be courting disaster.
Ri Shi thought it disastrous to lose one 6GG only a year after his appointment, and Qin had another 4 of them. It would've been worse for Zhao.
This assumes we know to timeline of appointments in detail, which we don't.
Tou Jou became king in 246 BC, the same year Ren Pa left. Ri Boku and Hou Ken were newly minted 3GHs just before Bayou in 245 BC.
Ko Chou was appointed by Tou Jou, we can assume he was chosen upon his ascension, but we don't know that for a fact. For all we know he appointed when he was still the crown prince, or on the day of his crowning to protect his interested, or after Ri Boku and Hou Ken were chosen. We don't know.
We do know that Ko Chou was held in high regard. We know he made a name for himself against Yan. We know he held off extremely powerful armies off for a whole year. We know he was a cold, calculated operator with great leadership abilities and intellect. Hara wasn't trying to be subtle in having him and Ou Sen recognise the Sun Bin ploy at the same time.
Do you know what priorities mean?
Ko Chou's position wouldn't forbid him from mobilising outside of the capitol. It just means his first priority would be the capitol, i.e. the royal family.
Duke Hyou held off Go Hou Mei's 100K army with just 10K for 4 days.
That same arc, Tou held off Rin Bu Kun's 50K Chu army with 5K.
Yo Tan Wa winning at Ryouyou was way more impressive too.
Thanks for playing.
Incorrect.
Go read 514 again.
Ordo was literally about to go engage SBS before he got word of Chou Haku's activities.
It's wild how combative you are about this manga when you're frequently wrong on the simple facts.
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I was actually picturing a scenario where Buddha kills one of the generals and then gets taken care of by Shibashou. I'm not sure if he 2v1s them but yeah he definitely solidly beats Jiaga/Kansaro.
The other commanders.... I have high doubts about their abilities. Not only did Kpop get one shot by Kanki.... they just didn't show off enough to compare them to Seika. But yeah they should be able to stall but Seika will win.
I always had Kochou's commanders around Gouhoumei's commanders(excluding Buddha/Ranbihaku)
@Rumble if we give both SHK and Moubu credit for beating the Kanmei army, shouldn't we give Riboku and Shibashou credit for the defeat of the Ousen arny?
The other commanders.... I have high doubts about their abilities. Not only did Kpop get one shot by Kanki.... they just didn't show off enough to compare them to Seika. But yeah they should be able to stall but Seika will win.
I always had Kochou's commanders around Gouhoumei's commanders(excluding Buddha/Ranbihaku)
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@Rumble if we give both SHK and Moubu credit for beating the Kanmei army, shouldn't we give Riboku and Shibashou credit for the defeat of the Ousen arny?
You can picture it a million different ways with the variables of war. For instance, you could image a scenario in which bows and arrows exist (rather than fading from existence per Hara's whims), meaning battles wouldn't be determined solely by the side with the most heavy hitters.
I don't think there's any doubt Buddha easily handles Ji Aga and Kan Saro 2v1 and carries on to fight.
General K-Pop was blinded by revenge against the Kan Ki Army and got his head lopped off when he took his eye off the ball. Kan Ki would beat all of SBS' vassals too.
I don't see how that animus would apply to Seika.
Seika could win, they could just as easily lose depending on the circumstances. The Ko Chou Army was an elite army top to bottom. I think you're selling them way too short. They would get theirs, win or lose.
We didn't really get to see the full strength of that army but I'll go with it because I think that tracks.
They didn't wow me but Jun Ei did hold his own against the Gen'U and Haku Rei armies after Ryuu Han and his cavalry disengaged to intercept a rampaging Sen To'un, which he succeeded in.
Ba Kai getting his head lopped off wasn't a great show, but he lost his head to an extremely dangerous enemy with a powerful army that repelled the armies of Chu against the odds.
I don't equate the two.
SHK advised Mou Bu on a game plan, but he still had to consider its viability in real time and execute. He also had his own strategists cook up plans on how to go about dealing with the Chu. It would be more accurate to say Mou Bu and Tou defeated Kan Mei, Rin Bu Kun and Ka Rin. SHK gets a much smaller slice of the credit pie.
By comparison, Ri Boku didn't advise Shi Ba Shou of the plan, he came up with the plan and had skin in the game to make it happen. Hell, he got injured in the setup.
I don't think there's any doubt Buddha easily handles Ji Aga and Kan Saro 2v1 and carries on to fight.
General K-Pop was blinded by revenge against the Kan Ki Army and got his head lopped off when he took his eye off the ball. Kan Ki would beat all of SBS' vassals too.
I don't see how that animus would apply to Seika.
Seika could win, they could just as easily lose depending on the circumstances. The Ko Chou Army was an elite army top to bottom. I think you're selling them way too short. They would get theirs, win or lose.
We didn't really get to see the full strength of that army but I'll go with it because I think that tracks.
They didn't wow me but Jun Ei did hold his own against the Gen'U and Haku Rei armies after Ryuu Han and his cavalry disengaged to intercept a rampaging Sen To'un, which he succeeded in.
Ba Kai getting his head lopped off wasn't a great show, but he lost his head to an extremely dangerous enemy with a powerful army that repelled the armies of Chu against the odds.
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I don't equate the two.
SHK advised Mou Bu on a game plan, but he still had to consider its viability in real time and execute. He also had his own strategists cook up plans on how to go about dealing with the Chu. It would be more accurate to say Mou Bu and Tou defeated Kan Mei, Rin Bu Kun and Ka Rin. SHK gets a much smaller slice of the credit pie.
By comparison, Ri Boku didn't advise Shi Ba Shou of the plan, he came up with the plan and had skin in the game to make it happen. Hell, he got injured in the setup.
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my point is that if General Kpop got negged by Kanki, he and the other Kochou commander would be crushed in a duel if they ran into any Seika general. The two weakest ones in a duel got feats against Shin.
On a side note, I find it absurd that Kochou randomly has one general that's probably as strong as martially focused Heavenly King tier subordinates and two others that are relatively "mid" and it's never acknowledged at all. Gakuhakukou never received any different portrayal from the others, only just has absurdly better feats.
On a side note, I find it absurd that Kochou randomly has one general that's probably as strong as martially focused Heavenly King tier subordinates and two others that are relatively "mid" and it's never acknowledged at all. Gakuhakukou never received any different portrayal from the others, only just has absurdly better feats.
Houken being appointed to lead the Bayou army was what lead Ouki to battle. Qin didn’t even know he was a 3GH until the battle climaxed, long after Ouki had already gone to Bayou.
So this is wrong. Lol
It had to do with his prowess on the battlefield yes. Riboku was aware that Houken singlehandedly killed Kyou and could consume entire units for himself.
So this is also wrong.
Good thing nobody in the history of Kingdom thought Kochou could hold the rank. That could’ve been a disaster. lol
Sure. He was a Great General and later Supreme Commander of Zhao. That level is almost as rare as the 3GH level.
Yet he literally did. Twice in fact. lol
So this is also (doubly) wrong.
So I ask you to show me an example of a number 1 GG of a state getting repelled, and you pulled examples of Gohoumei and fucking Rinbukun getting stalled. Lol
If I asked you to prove to me that you weren’t an AI, how could you do that objectively?
In the very pages you posted,
“the one thing that rubs me the wrong way [is Shibashou].” Lol
It’s hilarious how you same I’m wrong frequently when you literally just gaslit yourself into believing Kochou could ever hold the 3GH rank. Lol
So this is wrong. Lol
It had to do with his prowess on the battlefield yes. Riboku was aware that Houken singlehandedly killed Kyou and could consume entire units for himself.
So this is also wrong.
Good thing nobody in the history of Kingdom thought Kochou could hold the rank. That could’ve been a disaster. lol
Sure. He was a Great General and later Supreme Commander of Zhao. That level is almost as rare as the 3GH level.
Yet he literally did. Twice in fact. lol
So this is also (doubly) wrong.
So I ask you to show me an example of a number 1 GG of a state getting repelled, and you pulled examples of Gohoumei and fucking Rinbukun getting stalled. Lol
If I asked you to prove to me that you weren’t an AI, how could you do that objectively?
In the very pages you posted,
“the one thing that rubs me the wrong way [is Shibashou].” Lol
It’s hilarious how you same I’m wrong frequently when you literally just gaslit yourself into believing Kochou could ever hold the 3GH rank. Lol
Ryuu Fuu the Younger would have held his own.
General K-Pop would've held his own.
The question you need to be asking is why you are assuming Ko Chou's generals, besides Buddha and Ryuu Fuu the Younger, would seek out a 1v1? K-Pop was strong enough to be known for his cavalry's breakthrough ability and cut through Kan Ki's elites with ease (and cut off Rin Gyoku's hand), but he was also quite capable of fighting at range using strategy and tactics.
Absolutely meaningless feats given the context. You know how a clean 1v1 goes, they stand no chance whatsoever. None of the Seika generals under SBS are a challenge. Come on.
I think it makes sense if you consider he didn't seem to be all that good at being a general. He was like the martial anchor. The equivalent of Ji Aga, but smarter.
Hou Ken was named and revealed to be a member of the new 3GH by Tou Jou in ch 108.
Qin HQ didn't know Hou Ken was leading the Zhao until several days after the invasion in ch 116.
Ou Ki knew Hou Ken was leading the army before Qin HQ did. Put two and two together on your own time. Maybe try to remember Ou Ki's actions during the Sei Kyou Rebellion and after. It doesn't need saying that Ou Ki has his own means of keeping tabs.
Kyou's encampment wasn't a battlefield.
Bayou was Hou Ken's debut on the battlefield.
That you need it stated and take proof of absence of proof as proof of absence says it all.
lol
I say his position wouldn't forbid him from leaving the capitol and you think the fact he did contradicts that?
You are so unbelievably stupid. Just when I think I've seen the extent of your stupidity, you just up your game.
So you actually don't know what repel means.
Shi Ba Shou did not repel Ordo. He stalled.
Ordo was going to engage and was then forced by to forego that by Chou Haku's actions.
Tou has a similar feet with more impressive numbers. Duke Hyou has a better feat than the both of them. All three were stalling, not repelling.
Whatever the fuck that means, you deflecting dipshit.
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You don't know what repels means. You don't know what gaslighting means. You recently didn't know Jyou Ka Ryuu was a general and not a subordinate of Gaku Shou.
There's a lot you don't know.
General K-Pop would've held his own.
The question you need to be asking is why you are assuming Ko Chou's generals, besides Buddha and Ryuu Fuu the Younger, would seek out a 1v1? K-Pop was strong enough to be known for his cavalry's breakthrough ability and cut through Kan Ki's elites with ease (and cut off Rin Gyoku's hand), but he was also quite capable of fighting at range using strategy and tactics.
Absolutely meaningless feats given the context. You know how a clean 1v1 goes, they stand no chance whatsoever. None of the Seika generals under SBS are a challenge. Come on.
I think it makes sense if you consider he didn't seem to be all that good at being a general. He was like the martial anchor. The equivalent of Ji Aga, but smarter.
Hou Ken was named and revealed to be a member of the new 3GH by Tou Jou in ch 108.
Qin HQ didn't know Hou Ken was leading the Zhao until several days after the invasion in ch 116.
Ou Ki knew Hou Ken was leading the army before Qin HQ did. Put two and two together on your own time. Maybe try to remember Ou Ki's actions during the Sei Kyou Rebellion and after. It doesn't need saying that Ou Ki has his own means of keeping tabs.
Kyou's encampment wasn't a battlefield.
Bayou was Hou Ken's debut on the battlefield.
That you need it stated and take proof of absence of proof as proof of absence says it all.
lol
I say his position wouldn't forbid him from leaving the capitol and you think the fact he did contradicts that?
You are so unbelievably stupid. Just when I think I've seen the extent of your stupidity, you just up your game.
So you actually don't know what repel means.
Shi Ba Shou did not repel Ordo. He stalled.
Ordo was going to engage and was then forced by to forego that by Chou Haku's actions.
Tou has a similar feet with more impressive numbers. Duke Hyou has a better feat than the both of them. All three were stalling, not repelling.
Whatever the fuck that means, you deflecting dipshit.
?
You don't know what repels means. You don't know what gaslighting means. You recently didn't know Jyou Ka Ryuu was a general and not a subordinate of Gaku Shou.
There's a lot you don't know.
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Qin didn’t know this. Lol
Us as the reader learning something =/= Qin learning something. This is a pretty basic concept, not sure why you are so confused lol.
Correct, but there’s no evidence Ouki knew Houken was a 3GH.
I mean what even is your argument? Do you think Ouki would not have faced Houken unless Houken was a 3GH? lol
Do you think Ouki was like “yeah Houken killed my love Kyou, but unless Riboku specifically gave him the 3GH rank, I don’t see the purpose in facing him” lol
She mobilized her elite troops and personally rode out to fight him. And Houken still slew her in spite of this.
The fact that you just made it up out of nowhere is proof of your hallucinogenic mind running wild lmfao.
I mean what other baseless bullshit do you believe? Is Heki Qin 6 level now? Is Bihei Qin 6 level? “That you need it stated and take proof of absence of proof as proof of absence says it all.” Funny way of saying you just make shit up for no reason lmfao.
It’s no wonder you get laughed out of every Kingdom discussion lmfao. You make Ninjashadow look like a guy with reading comprehension.
You are a hallucinogenic clown seeing mirages in the desert and gaslighting yourself into a mouth-foaming rage when you fail to convince others of your delusions lol.
Us as the reader learning something =/= Qin learning something. This is a pretty basic concept, not sure why you are so confused lol.
Correct, but there’s no evidence Ouki knew Houken was a 3GH.
I mean what even is your argument? Do you think Ouki would not have faced Houken unless Houken was a 3GH? lol
Do you think Ouki was like “yeah Houken killed my love Kyou, but unless Riboku specifically gave him the 3GH rank, I don’t see the purpose in facing him” lol
She mobilized her elite troops and personally rode out to fight him. And Houken still slew her in spite of this.
The fact that you just made it up out of nowhere is proof of your hallucinogenic mind running wild lmfao.
I mean what other baseless bullshit do you believe? Is Heki Qin 6 level now? Is Bihei Qin 6 level? “That you need it stated and take proof of absence of proof as proof of absence says it all.” Funny way of saying you just make shit up for no reason lmfao.
It’s no wonder you get laughed out of every Kingdom discussion lmfao. You make Ninjashadow look like a guy with reading comprehension.
You are a hallucinogenic clown seeing mirages in the desert and gaslighting yourself into a mouth-foaming rage when you fail to convince others of your delusions lol.
I think I might be confusing Keisha for Kochou. One of them got humiliated by Kanki. Tho Gyou’un looked more impressive from what I remember, I don’t even remember some of the other names tho would have to reread Kingdom to better evaluate the powerscale. But Kanki did give Riboku a run for his money so I guess he’d be able to replicate what he did to Kouchou to Gyou’un too.
Ou Ki did know, is the point.
Not what I said, short bus.
The argument is that Ou Ki made his business to know a lot of things that weren't widely known.
Hou Ken being the CiC is one thing he knew in advance. When to be around in Kanyou to intercept Shou Bun Kun was another.
I realise you struggle getting through these basic facts, but you should do so on your own time.
Definitions don't change just because you don't like them or they contradict your position.
An encampment is not a battlefield
You go on these schizophrenic rants of zero substance when you're frustrated by the facts aligning against you.
It's as close as you'll allow yourself to get to capitulation, which is what it is, wrapped in a tantrum.
Not what I said, short bus.
The argument is that Ou Ki made his business to know a lot of things that weren't widely known.
Hou Ken being the CiC is one thing he knew in advance. When to be around in Kanyou to intercept Shou Bun Kun was another.
I realise you struggle getting through these basic facts, but you should do so on your own time.
Definitions don't change just because you don't like them or they contradict your position.
An encampment is not a battlefield
You go on these schizophrenic rants of zero substance when you're frustrated by the facts aligning against you.
It's as close as you'll allow yourself to get to capitulation, which is what it is, wrapped in a tantrum.
