Character Discussion Zoro has the responsibilities of a vice captain

[Chrono]

Of course Sanji does care, but his sacrifice was without meaning. "Take me, I am the one the Marines will fear most" is not something that's been relevant before or since, whereas Zoro's speech about protecting Luffy is actually very relevant to his character.

And if you think Sanji is special, that Luffy would consider himself able to be Pirate King without the others except him, then my point still stands whether you read a text where he explicitly says that or not. He would rescue any one of them rather than replace them, and in truth since they're all the best at something, it only makes sense that they're integral for achieving the goal of having the best crew.

Wdym meaning ? Dont confuse meaning with threat. Sanji has no threat, his bounty is lower and his ambition isnt threatening. Sanji adding the marines fearing him part was to seem more threatening than Zoro....so Kuma kills him instead. At the end of the day both Zoro and Sanji were willing to sacrifice their ambition for each other and Luffy. And for you to say ( in your original post)...that Sanji wanted to sacriface himself to one up Zoro and spite him....is again idiotic. Sanji wanted to sacrifice himself for Zoro, Luffy and the crew. Dont downplay him.

Of course Luffy would always rescue them. They are his nakama and family. However Luffy stating he cant be PK without Sanji, is completely different than just wanting to rescue him. Did Luffy state he cant be PK without Nami when she betrayed him, or when Robin ran away, or when Usopp left the crew ? Nope he never stated the words "I cant be PK if I dont have X". Heck he was alright with Usopp leaving his crew. He never thought losing Usopp would affect his chance in becoming PK. He only missed Usopp cause thats his crewmate.

Again stating that " I cant be PK without you" doesnt mean much is just spiteful lmao. Nobody but Sanji got this praise. And their were 3 fucking chances for other crewmates to get this praise but they never got it. Dont downplay it as something any crewmember could get praised on.

Theres big difference between Value to Luffy...in comparison to Value for his Dream.

Post automatically merged: Apr 3, 2022

Zoro wasn't there, it makes sense he takes the lead of the crew without the Captain and First Mate there

What First Mate ? Sanji led Zoro's ass in Punk Hazard.

 

[Colt Buntline]

Oda stating that some of the folks in that one "No.2" cover page **including Zoro** are simply the second strongest in their crews and not necessarily Vice Captains

Oda never stated that. It would be correct if you had said:
"Oda stating that some of the folks in that one "No.2" cover page **including Zoro** are not necessarily Vice Captains"

The rest is objectively not written nor implied in Oda's answer.

 

[Roo]

Oda never stated that. It would be correct if you had said:
"Oda stating that some of the folks in that one "No.2" cover page **including Zoro** are not necessarily Vice Captains"

The rest is objectively not written nor implied in Oda's answer.

PTG reads japanese lol

 

[Colt Buntline]

Sanji has that responsibility much more than Zoro

Zoro is just slightly stronger than Sanji.

Even when Sanji is beaten up and almost killed by a female character before his main fight, Sanji is still stronger than Zoro, as he does a better job in beating his opponent faster, be it when his opponent is much stronger than Zoro's, as was the case in Enies Lobby, be it when his opponent is just about 5% weaker, as was the case in Onigashima.

 

[ConquistadoR]

with regards to the Roger Pirates, they are more similar to the SHs but even then Rayleigh is referred to as Roger's "Right-Hand man" which isn't equivalent to "VC".

I might be wrong but IIRC Rayleigh was referred to as the Pirate King's Right Hand Man and the First Mate/Vice Captain of the Roger Pirates during his introduction, despite being in a set duo with Gaban (like Zoro and Sanji). We have seen many such "Wings of their Captain" duos like Zoro/Sanji f.ex. Marco/Jozu, King/Queen, Shiryu/Laffitte, Rayleigh/Gaban, but the Dark King is the only one who recieved such separate portrayal as the First Mate/Vice Captain.

Imo, the First Mate/Vice Captain (depending on the translation) role is a clear indication that the said character has authority over the rest of the crew barring the captain. So Zoro, who parallels Rayleigh much like Sanji parallels Gaban and Luffy parallels Roger, is almost definitely set to recieve that title at some point in the series.

 

[Fn Lucci]

I couldn't care less about official titles. The Straw Hat grand fleet isn't official because of Luffy not accepting it, but it's dumb to consider them anything else.

Wdym meaning ? Dont confuse meaning with threat. Sanji has no threat, his bounty is lower and his ambition isnt threatening. Sanji adding the marines fearing him part was to seem more threatening than Zoro....so Kuma kills him instead. At the end of the day both Zoro and Sanji were willing to sacrifice their ambition for each other and Luffy. And for you to say ( in your original post)...that Sanji wanted to sacriface himself to one up Zoro and spite him....is again idiotic. Sanji wanted to sacrifice himself for Zoro, Luffy and the crew. Dont downplay him.

Of course Luffy would always rescue them. They are his nakama and family. However Luffy stating he cant be PK without Sanji, is completely different than just wanting to rescue him. Did Luffy state he cant be PK without Nami when she betrayed him, or when Robin ran away, or when Usopp left the crew ? Nope he never stated the words "I cant be PK if I dont have X". Heck he was alright with Usopp leaving his crew. He never thought losing Usopp would affect his chance in becoming PK. He only missed Usopp cause thats his crewmate.

Again stating that " I cant be PK without you" doesnt mean much is just spiteful lmao. Nobody but Sanji got this praise. And their were 3 fucking chances for other crewmates to get this praise but they never got it. Dont downplay it as something any crewmember could get praised on.

Theres big difference between Value to Luffy...in comparison to Value for his Dream.

Post automatically merged: Apr 3, 2022

What First Mate ? Sanji led Zoro's ass in Punk Hazard.

If Sanji was better equipped for the task, it would have been him stepping up first and giving a rationale that anyone actually cared about. You're arguing about a situation where Zoro put himself out there and Sanji literally followed his lead...

 

[comrade]

@Fn Lucci is negging the critics indeed. Yes, as pointed out, no one denies the relevance of the other straw hats, even less when it comes to Sanji, who himself is strong and competent. As it was pointed out, he might as well have vice captain or even captain qualities, just not when it comes to the straw hat crew.

The dynamic between Luffy and Zoro is just different. Hence he was also paralleled with King in their flash back. As with King and Rayleigh, Zoro too was the first one to join Luffy. That in itself is already a strong case. The vivre card also says that Zoro often acts as the vice captain. And the scans I posted just have a different weight, you can't argue about that. Zoro stepping in first to sacrifice his dream, putting Luffy's dream above his own, with Kuma even pointing out what ambition he has, while Sanji at that point had nothing to sacrifice, plus, as pointing out, Zoro being the one to not only speak on Luffy's behalf but actually reminding him what it means to be a captain, which goes beyond disputing with Luffy.

 

[Arondight]

Some people prolly won't like what I'm about to say lol but honestly I think this whole (i.e. ryouyoku) "wings" concept that Oda's introduced to the story makes it very unlikely that Zoro or Sanji will ever hold the official role of VC and Oda stating that some of the folks in that one "No.2" cover page **including Zoro** are simply the second strongest in their crews and not necessarily Vice Captains is all you need to know that it's not really on the cards for Oda atm to make Zoro the Vice Captain. In Oda's mind even though Zoro is stronger than Sanji, Both are the two main pillars in the crew that equally support Luffy and none outranks the other. Hell this "wings" concept is pretty fresh in OP and it's sumin Oda specifically introduced into the story for Zoro & Sanji. Even If u wanna say that the SHs are similar to the Red Hair Pirates for example, they don't have this concept in their crew and with regards to the Roger Pirates, they are more similar to the SHs but even then Rayleigh is referred to as Roger's "Right-Hand man" which isn't equivalent to "VC". More likely than not Scopper is Roger's "Left-Hand man". Likewise, King has been referred to as Kaido's right hand man but he's not the VC of the Beast Pirates.

Also, I think the way Oda has written both Zoro & Sanji, is an indication that both are more than qualified to fill the VC role hence the "Wings" concept.

No matter how folks try, you're not gonna be able to separate these two. In Oda's mind they are a set, regardless of who is stronger than the other.

I don’t think anyone is ever going to get any official VC title or anything like that but I think the crux of the argument is that some people see being both “Wings” or coming as a set denotes complete equivalence when that isn’t the case. Being presented as a pair just means the two of them are more special compared to the rest of the crew (i.e., the clear number 2 and number 3) but it doesn’t mean the 2 and 3 are completely equal which is what some seems to be pushing for.

Marco and Jozu was introduced as a pair but I doubt anyone would disagree that Marco is the clear RHM. King and Queen are introduced as a pair but King is the one that gets the flashback with Kaido where their relationship is expanded upon and he is specifically called the RHM. Your Rayleigh and Scopper pairing is another example (with Rayleigh being one of the are official VCs)

I don’t think there is anyone but the biggest wankers that argue Zoro and Sanji are paired up, but like the aforementioned grouping, there is a clear number 2 and a clear number 3.

 

[Chrono]

If Sanji was better equipped for the task, it would have been him stepping up first and giving a rationale that anyone actually cared about. You're arguing about a situation where Zoro put himself out there and Sanji literally followed his lead...

Followed his lead ? Following his lead would be encouraging or agreeing with him. Not disagreeing and conflicting with him. Kuma wanted Luffy's head....and Zoro woke up first. Like what do yall want from Sanji.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Followed his lead ? Following his lead would be encouraging or agreeing with him. Not disagreeing and conflicting with him. Kuma wanted Luffy's head....and Zoro woke up first. Like what do yall want from Sanji.

Follow (one's) lead:
"to do the same thing that someone else has done."
"To act in a manner similar to someone else. "
"to go or come after in the same direction."

He followed Zoro's lead by doing the same thing, lol. What are you even fighting against. You were upset because I said Sanji was grandstanding... duh. He made his offer knowing that Zoro would never agree and so he was literally put in his place to solve the problem.

Zoro got up first because he's the physically more resilient of the two, which meant a better chance of survival and a better incentive for Kuma to select him over Sanji. You really have nothing and it's ridiculous.

 

[Loonarian]

Even when Sanji is beaten up and almost killed by a female character before his main fight, Sanji is still stronger than Zoro, as he does a better job in beating his opponent faster, be it when his opponent is much stronger than Zoro's, as was the case in Enies Lobby, be it when his opponent is just about 5% weaker, as was the case in Onigashima.

I can see why you would think this given how Oda has structured certain things.

Since you believe Sanji > Zoro, what exactly is the point of Zoro's character in your eyes? He's not the #2 in strength or leadership roles, his role as combatant is completely redundant (especially if/when Yamato joins), his dream is currently among the weakest of the crew in terms of themes and where the plot is heading.

With Jinbe/Yamato in the crew, Zoro even more than ever is the odd man out and provides nothing unique besides fighting with 3 swords, which isn't exactly a necessity to have in the crew.

 

[Finalbeta]

It has to do with Sanji's importance within the crew and how much Luffy values him. Of course you see it as nothing, but if Luffy stated this to Zoro....it would be clear cut potrayal that Zoro is above everyone else.

Are you actually being retarded ? Are you actually gonna now state that the reason that Sanji wanted to sacrifice himself in Thirller Bark was to one up Zoro and try to seem cooler than him ? Is this the lengths you idiots are going ? No lets just say that Sanji doesnt care about Zoro and Luffy....and is actually a psycho who would literally sacriface his life to one up Zoro.

The only pretend thing Sanji did...was pretend he was worth more than Zoro....so Kuma would kill him instead. His motivation was still to protect Luffy, Zoro and the entire crew. Stop being dumb.

Oh same thing as Nami ? Thats strange....I dont remeber Luffy ever stating he cant be PK without her ?

Sanji sacrified himself in Thriller Bark?

 

[Julius]

this is the only part of your rant worth a response, and not because you have a point but because it's vaguely on topic. "T-there's only one Sanji...!" Lmao, okay man, I believe it.

What the original post here touches on is that Luffy's statement as he flew off was immediately processed by Zoro. That has nothing to do with Sanji's confrontation. He tries to help Zoro, but not with any authority, and it goes south so Nami steps in.

Meanwhile, Usopp's joke revolves around his delusion. You know, like Cavendish, Baby 5, Hancock, and Sanji all experience when they mistakenly believe that they're needed? It's a pretty common gag.

I don't frame very much leadership discussion around Alabasta but it's pretty silly to argue against. I mean, who presented the strategy to deal with Sanji's antagonist?

Your response only shows how badly the points made in this thread are.

Even i could make Zoro look THE Vice Captain better than comrade did, even that i don't support the idea and think it isn't the case at all.

Post automatically merged: Apr 3, 2022

Zoro wasn't there, it makes sense he takes the lead of the crew without the Captain and First Mate there

Source:

My headcanon, just like Zoro being the Vice Captain. If Zoro was there, Sanji would simply go cook or do nothing while watching the Vice Captain Zoro in action. The crew would be named "Green Haired Pirates", all exactly as it happened an amount of 0 times before since the start of the manga.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Your response only shows how badly the points made in this thread are.

Even i could make Zoro look THE Vice Captain better than comrade did, even that i don't support the idea and think it isn't the case at all.

Post automatically merged: Apr 3, 2022

Source:

My headcanon, just like Zoro being the Vice Captain. If Zoro was there, Sanji would simply go cook or do nothing while watching the Vice Captain Zoro in action. The crew would be named "Green Haired Pirates", all exactly as it happened an amount of 0 times before since the start of the manga.

Whatever it is you're trying to say, you're right. About all of it. I think somewhere in there you're suggesting that Zoro should have gone to Zou as leader of that group. Sanji would then get a second crack at Doflamingo and encounter Fujitora in his place, then fight Pica? Sure.

 

[sanjikun]

@Fn Lucci is negging the critics indeed. Yes, as pointed out, no one denies the relevance of the other straw hats, even less when it comes to Sanji, who himself is strong and competent. As it was pointed out, he might as well have vice captain or even captain qualities, just not when it comes to the straw hat crew.

The dynamic between Luffy and Zoro is just different. Hence he was also paralleled with King in their flash back. As with King and Rayleigh, Zoro too was the first one to join Luffy. That in itself is already a strong case. The vivre card also says that Zoro often acts as the vice captain. And the scans I posted just have a different weight, you can't argue about that. Zoro stepping in first to sacrifice his dream, putting Luffy's dream above his own, with Kuma even pointing out what ambition he has, while Sanji at that point had nothing to sacrifice, plus, as pointing out, Zoro being the one to not only speak on Luffy's behalf but actually reminding him what it means to be a captain, which goes beyond disputing with Luffy.

Zoro has shown 0 leadership ability. He is just muscle for Luffy.

A vice captain is supposed to lead the crew in the absence of his captain. Zoro has never shown such ability.

 

[comrade]

Zoro has shown 0 leadership ability. He is just muscle for Luffy.

How does Luffy have better leadership abilities, apart from the charisma of making friends? It is Zoro who reminded him various times what it means to be a captain.

 

[sanjikun]

How does Luffy have better leadership abilities, apart from the charisma of making friends? It is Zoro who reminded him various times what it means to be a captain.

That was once with Usopp. Here is how Luffy has leadership abilities

(1) Has picked a world class crew despite protests from the rest of his crew

(2) Attracts people around him. Look at the Mihawk's speech. Zoro is more like Mihawk.

 

[HA001]

That was once with Usopp. Here is how Luffy has leadership abilities

(1) Has picked a world class crew despite protests from the rest of his crew

(2) Attracts people around him. Look at the Mihawk's speech. Zoro is more like Mihawk.

That's the devil fruit. Luffy a bum

 

[AkainuTheGrimReaper]

Zoro can be cabin boy and still be 2nd strongest.
Zoro just train, sleep , get lost . He does make smart decision.

The people mistake think zoro is captain instead of luffy because he look serious guy and look strong.

 

[comrade]

(1) Has picked a world class crew despite protests from the rest of his crew

(2) Attracts people around him. Look at the Mihawk's speech. Zoro is more like Mihawk.

None of those two are actually leadership skills. I can hire people I deem excellent in their field, but can I actually lead and coordinate them? As I said, Luffy naturally has that charisma of attracting people and wanting them to follow him to the end, which doesn't necessarily reflect his ability to lead them into the right direction. He has his entire crew for that, which, as you pointed out, are world class in their respective field. Him actually meeting those people was fate/luck however. He just took the first person of each field that he encountered, he wasn't really selective.

Zoro displayed great leadership skills by the fact alone that he taught Luffy what it means to be a great leader.