Speculations Zoro's Second Confrontation With Kaido?

[BOCCHI]

bet your account

You love betting accounts mate...

 

[Peroroncino]

Zoro and Hiyori's son will rule wano one day

 

[KiriNigiri]

I think its best if we wait for Zoro's dialogue next chapter (if he has) so we can properly guage where he's at mentally. There are some things I fundamentally disagree with here but this is a great post. What is a great discussion of there weren't disagreements?

A lot of this imo comes with the notion that they have legitimate unfinished business with each other which i don't agree with or implicitly tying things to Zoro but not to Luffy. A lot of what you have provided actually proves why this is central to Luffy and not Zoro. Things like:

- Kaido saying he respects the samurai, but doesn't reflect the same on Zoro. Kaido has already reacted to Zoro and his prowess in his own way. He has reacted to the new scar and his CoC, I think its unfair to say that this wasn't already achieved. Zoro also technically is not a Samurai, and I think that is very cut in dry by the way Kaido has reacted to Zoro as a whole. Kaido also can't react to Zoro if he's dead from ZKK so...I'm not sure how we are supposed to get further acknowledgement if the next step is virtually killing him.


- Enma turning black by cutting Kaido was never guaranteed. All Tengu says is in Zoro's hands, he's confident he can turn it black. It actually says nothing about it happening this arc. Enma's function/role this arc has already technically played out. He did cut Kaido

- Zoro already has damaged and cut Kaido as the story presented, Zoro failing to bring Kaido down on his own was never merited as an actual storyline that needed to be resolved.

- It has been heavily conflated that Oden's will is solely within Zoro, when we know that's not true. There is this notion that because Zoro has Enma, he must be the one fully carrying Oden's will and be the one to defeat Kaido. However, outsidr of that fact, there really is nothing tying Oden and Zoro together.

- Its actually Luffy that was always given the direct Oden parallels. When Kaido was punched the first time, Oden is in the backdrop behind Luffy, as if Kaido is looking at an opponent "like" Oden and the others. Luffy is the one that avenges the Scabbards, not Zoro. Luffy is the one Yamato suggests he should "be" Oden to defeat Kaido, not Zoro. Luffy is the one who has had directly more connections with Momo, Kinemon and the majority of Wano's citizens when it comes to the notion of defeating Kaido and liberating Wano.

- Zoro's "feat" with Kaido comes off WAY more selfish, because it's him attempting tp challenge and beat the WSC. That's not say Zoro doesn't have good intentions, but Luffy isn't just there to surpass the Yonko, he's there to avenge the samurai, he's there to defeat Kaido for Momo, he's there to liberate Wano. These are all things Luffy himself has proclaimed.


So listen I totally get the "idea" that Zoro has unfinished business with Kaido, but truly this has not really been promised or set up by the story. Kaido's dialogue has to do with the scabbards failure to be the living will of Oden. Kinemon asks Luffy to carry this burden not Zoro.

The parallel of someone surpassing Kaido like Oden is entirely a parallel to Luffy, NOT to Zoro. I really hope people don't hate me for this comment. I'm not trying to actively bash Zoro. He's still my favorite character like 80% of this forum, the problem is I cannot get behind some false expectations set by the fanbase when it comes to what they expect Zoro deserves this arc.

So like I said in the beginning, let's wait and see what Zoro's mindset is like. If he listens to Luffy and says he leaves it to him, or if he tells Law to have faith in Luffy, then I think people really need to start climbing down from this hype train. Zoro is not Luffy. Zoro receives less than half of Luffy's screentime. The manga has almost always centered on Luffy being the savior of X kingdom, not Zoro. Zoro's big moment at Thriller Bark ironically was entirely centered around Luffy and giving up his dream for him. He even threw away the notion of his dream by having his goal train him to get stronger for Luffy, he begged Mihawk for this. It is just what it is.


Tldr: Zoro's merit in the plot does not supercede Luffy's. I'm sorry but it's just fact and I hope this fanbase isn't crushed by the idea that Zoro is supposed to attain a much larger growth/feat/moment against the first Yonko defeat than Luffy.

I can't wait to be called a Zoro Hater or not a true fan without actually understanding why I'm saying what I'm saying.

Good post. However, you are giving Zoro too much credit. There’s no need for a closure. Zoro isn’t Kaido’s main opponent. Zoro’s goal isn’t to defeat Kaido cuz he can’t that’s why his captain THE MAIN CHARACTER is there to finish Kaido off. Zoro has done his part of fighting and participating in the main event. Zoro wanted to cut Kaido and he did more than once and even left a scar which is worthy of recognition. Zoro was never meant to be the one do slice Kaido’s head off EVER nor to be the one to defeat him. You read too much into this that had you expecting more of Zoro.

Thank you both for the honest feedback.

I can see where you are coming from, as I also believe Oda could choose to supersede Zoro's involvement in favor of Luffy. However, what leads me not to be fully on board with it at this point is how far Oda has already come with Zoro regarding his confrontation with Kaido. For it to conclude in such a manner, when so much of the fighting is still happening, would be bizarre. We'll see how it comes together, as I am confident Oda will reconcile this in the coming chapters.

I can't wait to be called a Zoro Hater or not a true fan without actually understanding why I'm saying what I'm saying.

Lol, why would I call you a Zoro hater?

 

[Paperchampion23]

Lol, why would I call you a Zoro hater?

Not you lol, but you know how this forum is. Sometimes it's hard to have...civilized discussions

 

[KiriNigiri]

Not you lol, but you know how this forum is. Sometimes it's hard to have...civilized discussions

I feel you. Ganbare.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Fantastic post. I felt like Zoro's last hurrah vs Kaido was extremely anticlimactic - not only in terms of length, art and detail but also in terms of resolutions, as you said. Kaido breaks into a cold sweat just thinking about Oden - dude saw Enma and had Vietnam flashbacks. Then a swordsman scars Kaido literally using Oden's sword and he doesn't even ask where he got it from? Or offer any form of comparison between Zoro and Oden? Even a "you're still too weak" would've been enough for a resolution. Meanwhile Luffy gives Kaido a love-tap on the head and he starts thinking about every ass-beating he's ever taken, comparing Luffy to the likes of not just Oden but Rogerbeard, Xebec and Shanks too. I know Oda favours Luffy heavily in One Piece but this is excessive. One simple line comparing Zoro to Oden would've been enough.

Personally, Zoro's finale vs Kaido felt empty and it seems like an incredibly anti-climactic way to end Zoro's very public, very intense proclamations of wanting to cut down Kaido. There wasn't even a scene of Zoro entrusting it to Luffy - he thought Luffy went down and entrusted Law with finishing the job lool. Imo Zoro got done extremely dirty here.

Now if Zoro wakes up lamenting his weakness either now or later, inciting a reignited desire to grow stronger then I'd also accept that as a resolution; because ultimately, Zoro wanted to cut down Kaido and instead he went down disappointed that he couldn't even knock Kaido down. He was too weak.

If he stays on the rooftop even unconscious then there's a chance he wakes up later. But he'll need a power-up as we've seen the limit of his ability. If Law takes him down then I doubt he'll be going back up. Only way he encounters Kaido again after that is if Luffy loses here, which I definitely think he will tbf as no way a Yonkou is gonna fall and no one's gonna see it. Not to mention Yamato has still yet to interact with her father. Zoro's potential backstory is also still pending.

 

[Chrono]

I mean Zoro said he'd slice him to pieces. Which is a pretty ambigious statement. Compared to Luffy saying several times that he'd defeat Kaido. It's pretty much a slap to Luffy's face if ZKK were to happen.

I do see the possibility of Zoro coming back and doing a bigger scar. Frankly the only possible way to get Oden lvl potrayal. Since if ZKK were to happen, then Kaido wouldnt be alive to compare him to Oden.

But yh I don't really see the need of making Zoro into this hero/legend like person. It's not his goal nor would he add to his character. He's just their to help take Kaido down. And if Luffy says he's got it covered then he gotta leave it to him.

I think Zoro not going back to the roof is as possible as him going to it. We just gotta see how this Hiyori/Orochi sub-plot pans out, and of course his potential backstory.

 

[stairs-kun]

I think its best if we wait for Zoro's dialogue next chapter (if he has) so we can properly guage where he's at mentally. There are some things I fundamentally disagree with here but this is a great post. What is a great discussion of there weren't disagreements?

A lot of this imo comes with the notion that they have legitimate unfinished business with each other which i don't agree with or implicitly tying things to Zoro but not to Luffy. A lot of what you have provided actually proves why this is central to Luffy and not Zoro. Things like:

- Kaido saying he respects the samurai, but doesn't reflect the same on Zoro. Kaido has already reacted to Zoro and his prowess in his own way. He has reacted to the new scar and his CoC, I think its unfair to say that this wasn't already achieved. Zoro also technically is not a Samurai, and I think that is very cut in dry by the way Kaido has reacted to Zoro as a whole. Kaido also can't react to Zoro if he's dead from ZKK so...I'm not sure how we are supposed to get further acknowledgement if the next step is virtually killing him.


- Enma turning black by cutting Kaido was never guaranteed. All Tengu says is in Zoro's hands, he's confident he can turn it black. It actually says nothing about it happening this arc. Enma's function/role this arc has already technically played out. He did cut Kaido

- Zoro already has damaged and cut Kaido as the story presented, Zoro failing to bring Kaido down on his own was never merited as an actual storyline that needed to be resolved.

- It has been heavily conflated that Oden's will is solely within Zoro, when we know that's not true. There is this notion that because Zoro has Enma, he must be the one fully carrying Oden's will and be the one to defeat Kaido. However, outsidr of that fact, there really is nothing tying Oden and Zoro together.

- Its actually Luffy that was always given the direct Oden parallels. When Kaido was punched the first time, Oden is in the backdrop behind Luffy, as if Kaido is looking at an opponent "like" Oden and the others. Luffy is the one that avenges the Scabbards, not Zoro. Luffy is the one Yamato suggests he should "be" Oden to defeat Kaido, not Zoro. Luffy is the one who has had directly more connections with Momo, Kinemon and the majority of Wano's citizens when it comes to the notion of defeating Kaido and liberating Wano.

- Zoro's "feat" with Kaido comes off WAY more selfish, because it's him attempting tp challenge and beat the WSC. That's not say Zoro doesn't have good intentions, but Luffy isn't just there to surpass the Yonko, he's there to avenge the samurai, he's there to defeat Kaido for Momo, he's there to liberate Wano. These are all things Luffy himself has proclaimed.


So listen I totally get the "idea" that Zoro has unfinished business with Kaido, but truly this has not really been promised or set up by the story. Kaido's dialogue has to do with the scabbards failure to be the living will of Oden. Kinemon asks Luffy to carry this burden not Zoro.

The parallel of someone surpassing Kaido like Oden is entirely a parallel to Luffy, NOT to Zoro. I really hope people don't hate me for this comment. I'm not trying to actively bash Zoro. He's still my favorite character like 80% of this forum, the problem is I cannot get behind some false expectations set by the fanbase when it comes to what they expect Zoro deserves this arc.

So like I said in the beginning, let's wait and see what Zoro's mindset is like. If he listens to Luffy and says he leaves it to him, or if he tells Law to have faith in Luffy, then I think people really need to start climbing down from this hype train. Zoro is not Luffy. Zoro receives less than half of Luffy's screentime. The manga has almost always centered on Luffy being the savior of X kingdom, not Zoro. Zoro's big moment at Thriller Bark ironically was entirely centered around Luffy and giving up his dream for him. He even threw away the notion of his dream by having his goal train him to get stronger for Luffy, he begged Mihawk for this. It is just what it is.


Tldr: Zoro's merit in the plot does not supercede Luffy's. I'm sorry but it's just fact and I hope this fanbase isn't crushed by the idea that Zoro is supposed to attain a much larger growth/feat/moment against the first Yonko defeat than Luffy.

I can't wait to be called a Zoro Hater or not a true fan without actually understanding why I'm saying what I'm saying.

I stopped reading halfway through because all I saw were falsities.

 

[spawn]

@spawn

Great post as usual

Pretty much covers what I've been saying for days now. Great post indeed.

 

[Paperchampion23]

I stopped reading halfway through because all I saw were falsities.

Literally none of it is false. I could provide you evidence for each statement if you like.

 

[matt245]

Great post and a great read.

 

[h_zorothegoat]

Great thread and that's a follow

 

[fanboy]

Zoro did enough on the roof. He clashed with 2 emperors, took the strongest attack in one piece head on (for a second), scarred kaido, and unlocked conquerers haki. I think Oda did enough to make Zoro fans happy.

 

[Midnight Delight]

Zoro isn't a Samurai

 

[Lukegranders]

Cant wait for the meltdown when it’s luffy who is the monstrous samurai like oden.

 

[matt245]

who is the monstrous samurai like oden

Neither Luffy nor Zoro are Samurais following the traditional definition of one.

 

[Finalbeta]

Zoro isn't a Samurai

I hope he shall factually be recognized as one later on, at least by the people of Wano, despite he didn't turn one before entering Wano and probably is not now.

 

[Bil02]

Great OP.

Tbh Kaidou and Zoro's character plotlines can start having a debut closure as from the beggining of next chapter.

Nothing stops Kaidou from commenting on how Zoro is as much of a monster as Oden after he starts feeling the effects of Ashura next chapter.

Then Zoro and Kaidou get complete closure above the capital when Zoro beheads a defeated Kaidou.

As you said Luffy too needs closure with Kaidou by beating a weakened version of him in a 1vs 1,which only leaves room for Zoro to behead an already defeated Kaidou.

I think the beggining of next chapter will give us clearer insight on if Kaido's and Zoro's Wano character plotlines will start having proper closures or not.

 

[Raft3l]

If this is a conquerors haki fight and Zoro just found out he has it, it makes sense that Luffy is the one to fight Kaido here and now. Zoro needs to understand the power like Luffy does and draw more from it in his techniques. Once he does this, there will be many more powerful fights for him.

 

[Bil02]

I think its best if we wait for Zoro's dialogue next chapter (if he has) so we can properly guage where he's at mentally. There are some things I fundamentally disagree with here but this is a great post. What is a great discussion of there weren't disagreements?

A lot of this imo comes with the notion that they have legitimate unfinished business with each other which i don't agree with or implicitly tying things to Zoro but not to Luffy. A lot of what you have provided actually proves why this is central to Luffy and not Zoro. Things like:

- Kaido saying he respects the samurai, but doesn't reflect the same on Zoro. Kaido has already reacted to Zoro and his prowess in his own way. He has reacted to the new scar and his CoC, I think its unfair to say that this wasn't already achieved. Zoro also technically is not a Samurai, and I think that is very cut in dry by the way Kaido has reacted to Zoro as a whole. Kaido also can't react to Zoro if he's dead from ZKK so...I'm not sure how we are supposed to get further acknowledgement if the next step is virtually killing him.


- Enma turning black by cutting Kaido was never guaranteed. All Tengu says is in Zoro's hands, he's confident he can turn it black. It actually says nothing about it happening this arc. Enma's function/role this arc has already technically played out. He did cut Kaido

- Zoro already has damaged and cut Kaido as the story presented, Zoro failing to bring Kaido down on his own was never merited as an actual storyline that needed to be resolved.

- It has been heavily conflated that Oden's will is solely within Zoro, when we know that's not true. There is this notion that because Zoro has Enma, he must be the one fully carrying Oden's will and be the one to defeat Kaido. However, outsidr of that fact, there really is nothing tying Oden and Zoro together.

- Its actually Luffy that was always given the direct Oden parallels. When Kaido was punched the first time, Oden is in the backdrop behind Luffy, as if Kaido is looking at an opponent "like" Oden and the others. Luffy is the one that avenges the Scabbards, not Zoro. Luffy is the one Yamato suggests he should "be" Oden to defeat Kaido, not Zoro. Luffy is the one who has had directly more connections with Momo, Kinemon and the majority of Wano's citizens when it comes to the notion of defeating Kaido and liberating Wano.

- Zoro's "feat" with Kaido comes off WAY more selfish, because it's him attempting tp challenge and beat the WSC. That's not say Zoro doesn't have good intentions, but Luffy isn't just there to surpass the Yonko, he's there to avenge the samurai, he's there to defeat Kaido for Momo, he's there to liberate Wano. These are all things Luffy himself has proclaimed.


So listen I totally get the "idea" that Zoro has unfinished business with Kaido, but truly this has not really been promised or set up by the story. Kaido's dialogue has to do with the scabbards failure to be the living will of Oden. Kinemon asks Luffy to carry this burden not Zoro.

The parallel of someone surpassing Kaido like Oden is entirely a parallel to Luffy, NOT to Zoro. I really hope people don't hate me for this comment. I'm not trying to actively bash Zoro. He's still my favorite character like 80% of this forum, the problem is I cannot get behind some false expectations set by the fanbase when it comes to what they expect Zoro deserves this arc.

So like I said in the beginning, let's wait and see what Zoro's mindset is like. If he listens to Luffy and says he leaves it to him, or if he tells Law to have faith in Luffy, then I think people really need to start climbing down from this hype train. Zoro is not Luffy. Zoro receives less than half of Luffy's screentime. The manga has almost always centered on Luffy being the savior of X kingdom, not Zoro. Zoro's big moment at Thriller Bark ironically was entirely centered around Luffy and giving up his dream for him. He even threw away the notion of his dream by having his goal train him to get stronger for Luffy, he begged Mihawk for this. It is just what it is.


Tldr: Zoro's merit in the plot does not supercede Luffy's. I'm sorry but it's just fact and I hope this fanbase isn't crushed by the idea that Zoro is supposed to attain a much larger growth/feat/moment against the first Yonko defeat than Luffy.

I can't wait to be called a Zoro Hater or not a true fan without actually understanding why I'm saying what I'm saying.

You made some great points.

Excellent post.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2021

I think its best if we wait for Zoro's dialogue next chapter (if he has) so we can properly guage where he's at mentally. There are some things I fundamentally disagree with here but this is a great post. What is a great discussion of there weren't disagreements?

A lot of this imo comes with the notion that they have legitimate unfinished business with each other which i don't agree with or implicitly tying things to Zoro but not to Luffy. A lot of what you have provided actually proves why this is central to Luffy and not Zoro. Things like:

- Kaido saying he respects the samurai, but doesn't reflect the same on Zoro. Kaido has already reacted to Zoro and his prowess in his own way. He has reacted to the new scar and his CoC, I think its unfair to say that this wasn't already achieved. Zoro also technically is not a Samurai, and I think that is very cut in dry by the way Kaido has reacted to Zoro as a whole. Kaido also can't react to Zoro if he's dead from ZKK so...I'm not sure how we are supposed to get further acknowledgement if the next step is virtually killing him.


- Enma turning black by cutting Kaido was never guaranteed. All Tengu says is in Zoro's hands, he's confident he can turn it black. It actually says nothing about it happening this arc. Enma's function/role this arc has already technically played out. He did cut Kaido

- Zoro already has damaged and cut Kaido as the story presented, Zoro failing to bring Kaido down on his own was never merited as an actual storyline that needed to be resolved.

- It has been heavily conflated that Oden's will is solely within Zoro, when we know that's not true. There is this notion that because Zoro has Enma, he must be the one fully carrying Oden's will and be the one to defeat Kaido. However, outsidr of that fact, there really is nothing tying Oden and Zoro together.

- Its actually Luffy that was always given the direct Oden parallels. When Kaido was punched the first time, Oden is in the backdrop behind Luffy, as if Kaido is looking at an opponent "like" Oden and the others. Luffy is the one that avenges the Scabbards, not Zoro. Luffy is the one Yamato suggests he should "be" Oden to defeat Kaido, not Zoro. Luffy is the one who has had directly more connections with Momo, Kinemon and the majority of Wano's citizens when it comes to the notion of defeating Kaido and liberating Wano.

- Zoro's "feat" with Kaido comes off WAY more selfish, because it's him attempting tp challenge and beat the WSC. That's not say Zoro doesn't have good intentions, but Luffy isn't just there to surpass the Yonko, he's there to avenge the samurai, he's there to defeat Kaido for Momo, he's there to liberate Wano. These are all things Luffy himself has proclaimed.


So listen I totally get the "idea" that Zoro has unfinished business with Kaido, but truly this has not really been promised or set up by the story. Kaido's dialogue has to do with the scabbards failure to be the living will of Oden. Kinemon asks Luffy to carry this burden not Zoro.

The parallel of someone surpassing Kaido like Oden is entirely a parallel to Luffy, NOT to Zoro. I really hope people don't hate me for this comment. I'm not trying to actively bash Zoro. He's still my favorite character like 80% of this forum, the problem is I cannot get behind some false expectations set by the fanbase when it comes to what they expect Zoro deserves this arc.

So like I said in the beginning, let's wait and see what Zoro's mindset is like. If he listens to Luffy and says he leaves it to him, or if he tells Law to have faith in Luffy, then I think people really need to start climbing down from this hype train. Zoro is not Luffy. Zoro receives less than half of Luffy's screentime. The manga has almost always centered on Luffy being the savior of X kingdom, not Zoro. Zoro's big moment at Thriller Bark ironically was entirely centered around Luffy and giving up his dream for him. He even threw away the notion of his dream by having his goal train him to get stronger for Luffy, he begged Mihawk for this. It is just what it is.


Tldr: Zoro's merit in the plot does not supercede Luffy's. I'm sorry but it's just fact and I hope this fanbase isn't crushed by the idea that Zoro is supposed to attain a much larger growth/feat/moment against the first Yonko defeat than Luffy.

I can't wait to be called a Zoro Hater or not a true fan without actually understanding why I'm saying what I'm saying.

You made some great points.

Excellent post.