Questions & Mysteries Who is the traitor?

[Dark Hound]

Aren't we talking about the scabbards and one of them being the traitor? You don't think this would feature in anyway in The Oden flashback?

What I said was if a scabbard is the traitor, they would have to be revealed in the Oden flashback since it would obviously explain why and how the scabbards were formed and why any of them would be a traitor... It would be ridiculous for the flashback to end and then later on when the traitor is revealed we go back to the flashback and start replaying what happened and nd changing contexts of things in the flashback because that would essentially mean the first flashback was incomplete

You said the flashback would end in a certain way. There's no way to know how much the flashback will give us and you just assumed Oda would have to remake it again etc if it ended without traitor info
It hasn't even started and you're already jumping the gun. That's what I meant.

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2019

He wasn't, I've already seen that video.

So he wasn't there to know about Law going for his crew ? And about the Yasu stuff ?

Who do you think is the traitor then ?

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Luffy didn't pick on Pudding's feelings though hahaha

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2019

You need to elaborate on the stuff that needs to be overlooked in order for us, Kanjuro accusers to actually respond LOL. I mean it might be true what you say and you prove the theory to be wrong, but unless we know what you are talking about, it's not really much of an argument by your side

Right but Wasn't Luffy right? I mean in the end VERY DEEP DOWN Pudding was a nice girl and it took a strong loving man Sanji to bring it up... Luffy can't see the future like days and weeks later or read people's minds... He just intuites whether a person is generally a a good person at least in his eyes and he was right and about pudding... So I never said Luffy can't be betrayed... I said Luffy can't live with a person for 20 years and fail to pick up on whether that person hates his guts

Who knows though, Oden might be a very interesting guy in that he actually knew one of the kids he raised for 20 years would rather see the country torn asunder by pirates and all his friends and family get killed and he still didn't worry... wouldn't hay be and interesting story... Oden knew who the traitor was andnnd for some reason still raised the guy in his group andnndnd never even told he rest of scabbards that one them really hated them... and who knows, maybe the traitor is actually a good person like Pudding after all deep down and Oda is planning a titanic redemption arc for this guy... Hehehe but unlike pudding, thousands of innocent people didn't die because of Pudding's treachery so Oda is gonna have to go through all the hoops imaginable to somehow redeem such a character

Hehehe, I won't lie, the traitor being a scabbard would in fact make for a vey interesting story but until that's where the story is going, there's very glaring problems with it for example Oden not knowing about it... to justify that, your theory would have to start making certain claims about Oden's character since this man literally raised these guys

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2019

You said the flashback would end in a certain way. There's no way to know how much the flashback will give us and you just assumed Oda would have to remake it again etc if it ended without traitor info
It hasn't even started and you're alread

I gave an either/or scenario dude... I never said the flashback would end any one way... I said IF there's a traitor in the Scabbards the flashback has to feature who is and IF NOT then it won't

Isn't that a pretty basic either/or... what other option do you expect?

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Right but Wasn't Luffy right? I mean in the end VERY DEEP DOWN Pudding was a nice girl and it took a strong loving man Sanji to bring it up... Luffy can't see the future like days and weeks later or read people's minds... He just intuites whether a person is generally a a good person at least in his eyes and he was right and about pudding... So I never said Luffy can't be betrayed... I said Luffy can't live with a person for 20 years and fail to pick up on whether that person hates his guts

Who knows though, Oden might be a very interesting guy in that he actually knew one of the kids he raised for 20 years would rather see the country torn asunder by pirates and all his friends and family get killed and he still didn't worry... wouldn't hay be and interesting story... Oden knew who the traitor was andnnd for some reason still raised the guy in his group andnndnd never even told he rest of scabbards that one them really hated them... and who knows, maybe the traitor is actually a good person like Pudding after all deep down and Oda is planning a titanic redemption arc for this guy... Hehehe but unlike pudding, thousands of innocent people didn't die because of Pudding's treachery so Oda is gonna have to go through all the hoops imaginable to somehow redeem such a character

Hehehe, I won't lie, the traitor being a scabbard would in fact make for a vey interesting story but until that's where the story is going, there's very glaring problems with it for example Oden not knowing about it... to justify that, your theory would have to start making certain claims about Oden's character since this man literally raised these guys

This does not count as Luffy judged her correctly. So I disagree haha. Luffy is an excellent judge of character, but he isn't always right. Pudding DID take advantage of their trust. Otherwise, Luffy wouldn't have gotten angry after she revealed that she will kill Sanji at wedding, he will be like "nah, you will not, you are fooling yourself"

Instead, he resented her for it. So, it's true that Pudding had a change of heart, HOWEVER, in those particular moment, Luffy did not judge her in the right way, cause she WAS INTENDING TO KILL SANJI as well as betray them.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

This does not count as Luffy judged her correctly. So I disagree haha. Luffy is an excellent judge of character, but he isn't always right. Pudding DID take advantage of their trust. Otherwise, Luffy wouldn't have gotten angry after she revealed that she will kill Sanji at wedding, he will be like "nah, you will not, you are fooling yourself"

Instead, he resented her for it. So, it's true that Pudding had a change of heart, HOWEVER, in those particular moment, Luffy did not judge her in the right way, cause she WAS INTENDING TO KILL SANJI as well as betray them.

What does that matter? He was still right... isn't that the whole Rebecca thing as well... He judged that she was a good person and when the betrayal happened he didn't just lie down and let her kill him... He fought back andnd restrained her and then he heard her out... THAT SHE WAS PRETTY INTENT ON STABBING HIM... So it doesn't matter... Pudding betrayed him and he got pissed and she didn't explain herself like Rebecca so Luffy remained pissed until she turned over her leaf and that was that... and yet in the end, Luffy was right about both of them... because he's always right... Even caribou immediately gets the benefit of a doubt from the readers because Oda made sure that it was Luffy who gave him a free pass because Oda has proven time and and gain that Luffy is his conduit for whether a character is worth trusting even to any extent in the story... Whether the character is introduced good and turn bad like Rebecca and pudding or introduced bad and turns good like Crocodile and caribou... Luffy's the barometer Oda uses to prevent fans from making theories like "when will caribou betray the crew"... Because Luffy gave him a pass so it's fine

And anyway it seems you don't want to touch on the whole "raising a guy for 20 years who secretly hates you and yet you don't realise" part of the original argument I made so I guess we're done

 

[dizzy2341]

So he wasn't there to know about Law going for his crew ? And about the Yasu stuff ?

Who do you think is the traitor then ?

1. Kanjuro never knew that Raizou arrived at Zou, but Jack did.

The last he saw of Raizou he was lost at sea, drifting in terrible currents on a tiny boat that had been broken in half with Zou in the distance. Kin e'mon and Kanjuro never knew that Raizou was on Zou. This was confirmed when he flat out said that they didn't know he was there. To Kanjuro's knowledge, Raizou was merely "lost at sea".

Spoiler

Jack didn't just have a hunch that Raizou was on Zou, he knew for a fact that he was there. That's not information Kanjuro had.

2. Kanjuro never knew the location of Hiyori.

The only people that knew this were Kawamatsu, Zoro, and the sword collector. We were never shown Kanjuro having access to this information.

3. There is an inconsistency in the timing of leaked information

Orochi only found out the meaning of the crescent moon rebellion symbol AFTER the straw hats, Carrot etc. arrived. Kanjuro knew that rebels carried this symbol from when he very first arrived in timeskip Wano. Therefore this doesn't make sense with the timeline of the leaks. It would mean that Kanjuro knew about all the rebels in Wano with the crescent moon symbol, yet for some reason didn't report it when it would've been easy to capture them all. It would mean that Kanjuro reported about Raizou being on Zou, yet for some random reason never reported about all the rebels in Wano who would be easily identifiable.

4. The very first thing that was leaked by the traitor was leaked to Kaido, not Orochi.

There could be argument that Kanjuro secretly hated Oden and plotted with Orochi to overthrow him, but what reason would Kanjuro have to contact an outsider pirate over Orochi himself?

5. Kanjuro's entire character shows his loyalty to the Kozuki

He rushed into a flaming castle when it was being surrounded and he had (to his knowledge) zero ways of escape from that situation. There are many scenes of him crying alongside the other scabbards. Even finishing each others sentences when reminiscing on Oden's past and their duty. It would be so unbelievably cheap to just say "hahaha, it was all good acting!!11!". Oda's already done the whole acting thing literally in the arc just before this one. And at least in that case Pudding was half telling the truth all along. It would be some next level BS in this case.

Who do you think is the traitor then ?

I think Oda's screwed up. Whilst most traitor plots have multiple candidates for who it could be and you try and guess who among them it is. However, in this case there are literally none as every single candidate appears to be lacking knowledge of a certain thing that was leaked. The only way in which things could work was if there were multiple traitors, which is just messy in itself. The way this arc has been going, shit tons of stuff has been getting off panelled and it wouldn't surprise me either if Oda were to just magically claim that the traitor learnt some information "off-panel" in some cheap af way to try and trick the readers.

Carrot would make the most sense to me for multiple reasons, but she, just like Kanjuro lacks information that straight up rules her out of consideration.

 

[MD Zolo]

@ImmaIvanoM, are you still in the boat of Carrot being the traitor or have you changed your mind?

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

What does that matter? He was still right... isn't that the whole Rebecca thing as well... He judged that she was a good person and when the betrayal happened he didn't just lie down and let her kill him... He fought back andnd restrained her and then he heard her out... THAT SHE WAS PRETTY INTENT ON STABBING HIM... So it doesn't matter... Pudding betrayed him and he got pissed and she didn't explain herself like Rebecca so Luffy remained pissed until she turned over her leaf and that was that... and yet in the end, Luffy was right about both of them... because he's always right... Even caribou immediately gets the benefit of a doubt from the readers because Oda made sure that it was Luffy who gave him a free pass because Oda has proven time and and gain that Luffy is his conduit for whether a character is worth trusting even to any extent in the story... Whether the character is introduced good and turn bad like Rebecca and pudding or introduced bad and turns good like Crocodile and caribou... Luffy's the barometer Oda uses to prevent fans from making theories like "when will caribou betray the crew"... Because Luffy gave him a pass so it's fine

And anyway it seems you don't want to touch on the whole "raising a guy for 20 years who secretly hates you and yet you don't realise" part of the original argument I made so I guess we're done

NO, Rebecca in that particular scene, in that moment, Luffy sensed that she does not intend on killing him EVEN despite raising her sword and trying to attack him. She simply didn't have the lust of killing. Pudding is different in that she was intending for the kill in those moments. Luffy simply fell for her acting. It was ONLY AFTER SANJI COMPLIMENTED HER EYE, Pudding had a change of heart. Before that, she WAS EVIL AS FUCK.

 

[MD Zolo]

I think Oda's screwed up. Whilst most traitor plots have multiple candidates for who it could be and you try and guess who among them it is. However, in this case there are literally none as every single candidate appears to be lacking knowledge of a certain thing that was leaked. The only way in which things could work was if there were multiple traitors, which is just messy in itself. The way this arc has been going, shit tons of stuff has been getting off panelled and it wouldn't surprise me either if Oda were to just magically claim that the traitor learnt some information "off-panel" in some cheap af way to try and trick the readers.

Multiple traitors could work. Oden is being portrayed as this Jesus figure but in reality he could be in gray-area which led to many people not liking him.

 

[Zenos7]

Multiple traitors could work. Oden is being portrayed as this Jesus figure but in reality he could be in gray-area which led to many people not liking him.

even jesus had a traitor

 

[dizzy2341]

Multiple traitors could work. Oden is being portrayed as this Jesus figure but in reality he could be in gray-area which led to many people not liking him.

Multiple traitors is literally the only way I can see this plot working. Oda's written himself into a corner for every other alternative. But even then, some of the same fundamental issues still remain with characters like Kanjuro. I'm fully expecting Oda to fuck this plot up completely at this point considering some of his recent work.

 

[MD Zolo]

Multiple traitors is literally the only way I can see this plot working. Oda's written himself into a corner for every other alternative. But even then, some of the same fundamental issues still remain with characters like Kanjuro. I'm fully expecting Oda to fuck this plot up completely at this point considering some of his recent work.

What about a shape-shifter? I know that Devon has gotten the nine-tailed fox df, but still, a shape-shifter can work.

 

[dizzy2341]

What about a shape-shifter? I know that Devon has gotten the nine-tailed fox df, but still, a shape-shifter can work.

I don't see how.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

@ImmaIvanoM, are you still in the boat of Carrot being the traitor or have you changed your mind?

Yeah I'd still go with Carrot because she desperately needs a plot point in this arc or else she'll have no further use this arc

 

[LolonoisZolo]

Kanjuro is 100% the traitor, everything points to him...EVERYTHING!
0 chance that a Mink did it, they are too loyal.
0 Chance that Shinobu did it, she didn't know shit.
0 chance that Raizo betrayed himself.

Post automatically merged: Oct 24, 2019

Yeah I'd still go with Carrot because she desperately needs a plot point in this arc or else she'll have no further use this arc

It can't be a Mink mate !

 

[Awaken Fruit]

Kanjuro is 100% the traitor, everything points to him...EVERYTHING!
0 chance that a Mink did it, they are too loyal.
0 Chance that Shinobu did it, she didn't know shit.
0 chance that Raizo betrayed himself.

Post automatically merged: Oct 24, 2019

It can't be a Mink mate !

It is Kanjuro I say

 

[Dr. Spook]

I just want to add to this thread of what had been leaked out to Orochi so far:

- The symbol, crescent moon tattoo and the original plan Kinemon had drawn out.
- Udon being captured - tho' Orochi didn't believe it, because of conflicting reports
- The hiding place of the Sunny (something only Tama knew chapter 911)
- The location of the ships secretly built by the alliance to transport the rebels.
- The second plan where all the allies will rendezvous at Tokage Port.
- Also informed that the scabbards are alive, and some leapt 20 years through time

What's confirmed:
- Kawamatsu is NOT the traitor. He was freed right AFTER Yasuie died, due to the first plan being leaked.
- Carrot is NOT the traitor. Orochi himself confirmed that the traitor was a male.
- Shinobu is NOT the traitor, for the same reasons as Carrot.

I'm also starting to think the traitor is someone among these guys right here, who gathered together with Kinemon to discuss on how they would plan a strategy for the raid in Onigashima.


Initially, I thought of Shutenmaru being the traitor, coz I believed he leaked out the first plan to see how many people the plan had rounded up, and assess if the number of rebels would be enough to have a chance against Kaido and Orochi before joining........ Kinemon wasn't able to recruit him at first....

But now I don't see it.. he couldn't have done it the second time, because he knows now how many rebels they've gathered.. and if he wanted more numbers (from rasetsu district and other factories), he would've tried to convince Kinemon not to pursue a reckless action to attack Onigashima with just 7 people.


My other suspicion is probably Hitetsu, but even that I don't know... he was present in the meeting for the second plan, and Tama - being the only one who knew of the Sunny's location in ch 911 - probably told him about it, but even so.. doesn't seem like he even knew what the first plan was. *shrugs*

Also, what could be the chances of Law actually being the traitor??
I mean, it's crazy, but idk.. :unsure:

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

The traitor isn't a scabbard because orochi still doesn't have actual proof that scabbards are back... He says he hasn't seen a scabbard and all hes going off of is his paranoia and the words of his spy to the point that he even takes some of the spy's words as false reports like Udon

Obviously this spy isn't someone OrochI 100% faith in and if his spy was a scabbard and especially one who disappeared 20 years ago, then he would take his words way more seriously and not dismiss the Udon thing as a false report so easily

Once again it seems Shinobu would be the best candidate but of course she's saved the strawhats multiple times when she could've let them die and survive herself so nah, it's not her

And if it's not someone in the inner circle then it must be one of the minks or the pirates

 

[djiayebee]

what if it's not the work of a traitor but just info gathered/provided by of all the ninjas working under Orochi + Faust, the cat mink in Hawkins crew...?

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

what if it's not the work of a traitor but just info gathered/provided by of all the ninjas working under Orochi + Faust, the cat mink in Hawkins crew...?

If it's Intel gathering then it's pretty ridiihoe all these ninja who keep getting dispersed so easily are also world class sleuths... Like zoro basically be all the ninja singlehandedly and yet they are have such ridiculous spy skills... Like how are they so good at hiding their presence even from observation haki users

 

[Luffy is the mc]

The kanjuro theory is a good one because it would explain a lot of things. We will see in the flashback if there are more hints to it.

I think we can already rule out guys like kinemon and denjiro, because denjiro hasn't been introduced in the present timeline and kinemon seems to be the leader of the scabbards, it would make no sense for him to be the traitor.