Powers & Abilities Zoro Could Use Ryuo Before Enma

[Cinera]

Introduction
There seems to be this annoyingly persistent myth that Zoro could not use Ryuo (here I refer in particular to the same flow of haki that e.g. Kawamatsu uses and which Zoro has been using in the Kaido fight) before Enma. Such a myth couldn't be farther from the truth, Zoro could not only use the external flow of his haki before Enma, but did so on numerous occasions.


Ryuo Usage With Enma

Spoiler

This is when Zoro first used Ryuo with Enma:

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Notice the black overflowing hardening from Enma.

When Zoro prepares to cut down Kaido with Hiryuu Kaen, we see overflowing hardening:

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When Zoro prepares his Kokujo Ou Tatsumaki, we again see overflowing hardening:

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Based on the above, I conclude that the overflowing hardening that has been present on Enma is Ryuo.

Ryuo Usage Before Enma

Spoiler

Before Enma, Zoro was able to cut Monet in her logia form with a flying slash:

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Releasing haki into a flying slash is Ryuo. Enma creates more powerful slashes by forcing its wielder to release more Ryuo:

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When Zoro blocked the Birdcage, we see the same overflowing hardening (albeit in smaller amounts) from the Sandai Kitetsu:

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When Zoro cut Killer with Rengoku Oni Giri, we see the same overflowing hardening from the Sandai Kitetsu and Wado Ichimonji:

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Interlude: P0ll

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I have a few questions for the p0ll:

1. Did Zoro use ryuo when he cut Monet with a flying slash?
2. Did Zoro use ryuo when he blocked the Birdcage?
3. Did Zoro use ryuo when he struck Killer with Rengoku Oni Giri?
4. Could Zoro use ryuo before he received Enma?

Summary
By my count, that's 3 instances of Zoro using Ryuo before Enma:

• A Ryuo slash to cut Monet's logia form
• Overflowing hardening on Sandai Kitetsu when Zoro blocked the Birdcage
• Overflowing hardening on Sandai Kitetsu and Wado Ichimonji when Zoro cut Killer with Rengoku Oni Giri

If you know any other instances of probable ryuo usage pre Enma, please let me know.

Spoiler: Tags

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[nik87]

He used Ryo back in Alabasta.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

He used barrier on FI.

Yes he could use Ryou before Enma. It's the level of Ryou he can out from his swords that differed with Enma.

 

[Kuro Ashi]

It's Ryou, but the "generic" one swordsmen use.

We've seen it with Raisin in WCI as well

It's different from the type of Ryou Oden, the Scabbards, and now Zoro with Enma uses, which can hurt Kaido.

 

[peclxi]

no, without enma he is not worth shit
enma is the reason that mid vet jumped into yc4.69 level

 

[WesMidnight]

Upon the creation of "Ryuo" Zoro was soft-retconned to not having it before Enma. Imbuing haki into air slashes, or an artistic choice when showing his hardening are not proof.

Oda isn't known for his consistency with Haki and upon the creation of "real FS" seemed to nerf normal CoO to doing almost nothing when before Luffy was dodging pacifista lasers, Luffy unlocked FS against Mihawk pre timeskip...

 

[Edwar.D.O]

It's Ryou, but the "generic" one swordsmen use.

We've seen it with Raisin in WCI as well

It's different from the type of Ryou Oden, the Scabbards, and now Zoro with Enma uses, which can hurt Kaido.

Raisin kinda cold 🧊 ❄️ 🥶

 

[Finalbeta]

Before reading this some people need to understand Ryou = Haki plain and simple.

Second CP9 itself had haki, having haki pre TS should not shock people.

 

[trav]

the black stuff is the ryou. the white smoke arround it is the excess haki that is not properly utilized. the waste, so to say.
unless Zoros blades look like pre-Enma again he has not mastered Enma yet.

wether Hiryu Kaen aura is from haki I can not say. the patter looks more like flames than the smoke like haki aura from the first time Zoro used the blade.

 

[Jo_Ndule]

Any swordman can use ryuo
Even Law if he wants to

 

[Fuckthis3]

Also stronger than kaido before emma

 

[Cinera]

It's Ryou, but the "generic" one swordsmen use.

We've seen it with Raisin in WCI as well

It's different from the type of Ryou Oden, the Scabbards, and now Zoro with Enma uses, which can hurt Kaido.

Ryuo doesn't ignore Kaido's durability. It's not as if Kaido is a logia, that it's letting you hit his true form. It just makes your attack strong enough to hurt him.

The ryuo the scabbards use is the same flowing ryuo Hyougoro mentioned, it's the same ryuo Zoro was using before and after Enma, and it's the same ryuo Oden uses.

Raisin was just not that proficient with it, that's why you see the haki barely leaking from his blade.

The difference between the ryuo of current Zoro and Pre Enma Zoro is a difference of degree not of kind.


If you disagree answer the following questions:

• What are the material differences between the ryuo Zoro uses now and the ryuo Zoro used before Enma?
  • When were these differences shown in the manga?
• What are the material differences between the ryuo the Scabbards and Hyougoro used and the ryuo Zoro used before Enma?
  • When were these differences shown in the manga?

He used barrier on FI.

Yes he could use Ryou before Enma. It's the level of Ryou he can out from his swords that differed with Enma.

That's true, I'll try and add it to the OP.

Upon the creation of "Ryuo" Zoro was soft-retconned to not having it before Enma.

Where is the indication of this soft retcon in the manga?


There hasn't been any indication that Zoro could not use Ryuo before Enma and only learned it after Enma. The overflowing hardening present when he first used Enma is exactly the same as his previous uses of overflowing hardening.

 

[Kuro Ashi]

Ryuo doesn't ignore Kaido's durability. It's not as if Kaido is a logia, that it's letting you hit his true form. It just makes your attack strong enough to hurt him.

The ryuo the scabbards use is the same flowing ryuo Hyougoro mentioned, it's the same ryuo Zoro was using before and after Enma, and it's the same ryuo Oden uses.

Raisin was just not that proficient with it, that's why you see the haki barely leaking from his blade.

The difference between the ryuo of current Zoro and Pre Enma Zoro is a difference of degree not of kind.


If you disagree answer the following questions:

• What are the material differences between the ryuo Zoro uses now and the ryuo Zoro used before Enma?
  • When were these differences shown in the manga?
• What are the material differences between the ryuo the Scabbards and Hyougoro used and the ryuo Zoro used before Enma?
  • When were these differences shown in the manga?

Oda needs to explain it more, but the clearest indication that it's not something so generic is that Kaido himself associates that Ryou with Oden both times he sees it used by someone else, be it the Scabbards or Zoro.

He would not do that if it wasn't so rare/unique.

Kaido also explicitely singles out Enma as the source of a strange Haki when Zoro performs the Tatsumaki, and explains him getting cut and said strange Haki by the fact that it must be Oden's sword that's used against him.

 

[Cinera]

Oda needs to explain it more, but the clearest indication that it's not something so generic is that Kaido himself associates that Ryou with Oden both times he sees it used by someone else, be it the Scabbards or Zoro.

Kaido did not really associate Zoro's Ryuo with Oden.

• He saw Oden's presence in Zoro's sword, but that wasn't a powerscaling thing.
  • It's similar to how he saw the visage of Kozuki Oden in the Scabbards:
    
    
• He called Zoro's haki strange:
  
  
  • Oden's Ryuo should be familiar with him
• Kaido has a deep emotional scar from Oden and sees Oden in everything with a connection to him
  • His Scabbards
  • Momonosuke
  • Enma

Kaido also explicitely singles out Enma as the source of a strange Haki when Zoro performs the Tatsumaki, and explains him getting cut and said strange Haki by the fact that it must be Oden's sword that's used against him.

Enma was the only sword that was coated in overflowing hardening:

In general, Kaido is not a reliable source for concluding that ryuo his exceptional. Kaido seeing the shade of Oden in someone or something isn't a powerscaling issue, Kaido is just seeing the shade of Oden in those that inherited his will.

Kaido clarified that the Scabbards' attacks bear no resemblance to Oden's blades:

The ryuo the Scabbards used have not been depicted as a different kind from any other ryuo used in Wano.

 

[Kuro Ashi]

Kaido did not really associate Zoro's Ryuo with Oden.

• He saw Oden's presence in Zoro's sword, but that wasn't a powerscaling thing.
  • It's similar to how he saw the visage of Kozuki Oden in the Scabbards:
    
    
• He called Zoro's haki strange:
  
  
  • Oden's Ryuo should be familiar with him
• Kaido has a deep emotional scar from Oden and sees Oden in everything with a connection to him
  • His Scabbards
  • Momonosuke
  • Enma

Enma was the only sword that was coated in overflowing hardening:

In general, Kaido is not a reliable source for concluding that ryuo his exceptional. Kaido seeing the shade of Oden in someone or something isn't a powerscaling issue, Kaido is just seeing the shade of Oden in those that inherited his will.

The ryuo the Scabbards used have not been depicted as a different kind from any other ryuo used in Wano.

He concludes that the strange Haki and him getting hurt must mean Zoro's using Oden's sword, so that's a pretty direct connection.

Look, Hyogoro didn't treat Ryou as something special in Wano as he was explaining it to Luffy. On the other hand, cutting Kaido is being treated as something very special.

There's a clear dissonance between the two, and with the only cases of Kaido getting cut being Oden himself, the Scabbards or Zoro with Enma, it would take evidence for the contrary to make the argument that there's nothing special about what they are doing.

 

[Garps tekkai]

Of course he could do so before.

All people who can imbue their weapons with haki are advanced CoA users ("Ryou" users). They have to let their haki flow onto their weapons afterall.
They then can harden it up for greater cutting efficiency+AP+durability and/or release it within their long range moves (Kawamatsu and Roger within Kamusari use it more like blasts).
And Zoro obviously was already able to do all that. And many others can do so aswell.

Enma now just grants Zoro the unique quirk to release much more of that haki, which boosts his AP a lot.
A feat that needs otherwise much greater control over your haki flow (WB, Roger, Oden..).

And for that "scabbards have Oden's haki" stuff. Many things are highly linked to symbolistic features, similiar to how Red Roc is a callback to Red Hawk, which is a callback to Ace, even though Red Roc has nothing to do with actual fire anymore. It's entirely haki based.
Just haki that gets the fire theme.
Similiar to Zoro's Itoryu move from 1002.

Kaido's comment is just a throwback to Oden, which fits in perfectly with their "taking revenge for Oden Sama"-theme. They just inherited his will.
They were pretty much just attacking him angrily with haki imbue swords, but because of the circumstances it got taken back to Oden, who was the one who scarred him with that stuff.

Similiar to that, Zoro is also not using "Oden's absorbed haki" or some non sense stuff like that.
It's just that Enma inherited Oden's will, which Kaido can feel.
Similiar to how swords inherit the will of their creators.
A japanese Manga afterall. "Inherited will" as a concept is older than the trees.

 

[Cinera]

He concludes that the strange Haki and him getting hurt must mean Zoro's using Oden's sword, so that's a pretty direct connection.

Look, Hyogoro didn't treat Ryou as something special in Wano as he was explaining it to Luffy. On the other hand, cutting Kaido is being treated as something very special.

There's a clear dissonance between the two, and with the only cases of Kaido getting cut being Oden himself, the Scabbards or Zoro with Enma, it would take evidence for the contrary to make the argument that there's nothing special about what they are doing.

Kaido directly says the Scabbards' attacks bear no resemblance to Oden's blades:

That contradicts your claim that they are using the same kind of Ryuo Oden was using.

He concludes that the strange Haki and him getting hurt must mean Zoro's using Oden's sword, so that's a pretty direct connection.

Kaido had already been noticing the sword before he concluded it's Oden's sword.

• When Zoro overflowed his haki through Enma in preparation for Hiryuu Kaen, he felt Oden's presence:
  
  
• When Zoro overflowed his haki through Enma in preparation for Kokujo Ou Tatsumaki, he noticed a strange haki arising from the sword:
  
  
• He finally concluded that the sword was Oden's:
  
  

Kaido has been cut by Enma before. In fact, Enma is responsible for his lone grievous scar. It's not surprising that he would remember what being cut by Enma feels like. Again, it's not necessarily that a different kind of Ryuo flows through Enma. Zoro just flows more through Enma than through his other swords (for now).

On the other hand, cutting Kaido is being treated as something very special.

• Hyougoro was the second strongest person in Wano while Oden was alive
• Many people are not capable of properly using Ryuo outside Wano.
• The Scabbards are the only serious attempt to kill Kaido since he became Wano's tyrant
  • While the Scabbards could cut Kaido, their cuts were too shallow. Even when they targeted the scar Oden left, they couldn't even reopen it.
  • Their ryuo was not strong enough.

Cutting Kaido is a matter of the strength of your ryuo, not its kind. Again, there is zero indication that another kind of ryuo exists (as applied to swordsmanship at least). Oden's ryuo was just that strong.

Besides, Zoro's reaction to Luffy's use of internal destruction COA implied that he didn't know how to use it, so it isn't that.

 

[WesMidnight]

We don't know for certain if Luffy used internal destruction yet, I don't believe he has, all will be made clear as the fight progresses.

Zoro is having difficulty cladding ryuo without Enma and that doesn't make sense if he has had ryuo since the skip.
No mention of ryuo, just hardening in Zoro's flashbacks so far.

Artistic choices from hundreds of chapters before the concept of ryuo was formalized shouldn't be taken as proof, neither should air haki slashes which haven't been hyped as ryuo based in any way.

 

[Finalbeta]

Right now we know Luffy has unleashed advanced haki at the very least, given the way Zoro reacted to it.

 

[WesMidnight]

Right now we know Luffy has unleashed advanced haki at the very least, given the way Zoro reacted to it.

Yes he is definitely using barrier haki at least otherwise it's impossible to overcome Kaido's scales without tricks and damage him.
But with the focus and effort he required for internal destruction of Yamato's chains I think it would be made more clear if he was using internal destruction.