Spoiler One Piece Chapter 1015 Spoilers Discussion

Is Pan D. A Man Moe?

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Kromage911

Kromage911

‎
#3,921
#3,921
mly90 said:
Zoro and Sanji fandom get a lot of criticism but every once in a while you come across some Luffy fans with extreme superiority complex.
There is no way Zoro will ever be that much weaker than Luffy he is very close to him if not his equal already.
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Yeah, he'll definitely always be close throughout the story but I doubt he'll ever surpass Luffy.
 
OEKaneki

OEKaneki

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#3,922
#3,922
Fn Lucci said:
Wait, Kaido ragdolled Luffy and laughed, but got scarred and didn't laugh at his much weaker subordinate?
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Interesting way to describe that, given that Kaido suggested that he was either using or approaching full power to beat a guy that was only using his base form for the entirety of that confrontation that we had seen, after turning away from someone he wasn’t at any point taking seriously to look for a real fight (Kaido didn’t take anything serious until fighting Luffy).
 
CbShadow

CbShadow

‎
#3,925
#3,925
OEKaneki said:
“Not every pirate ship operates the same,” yet you were the one who brought up the comparisons between Roger, Shanks, and Luffy, not me.

That aside, the rest of that is blatantly false. A quarter or so of the way through the series, we had an actual, tangible indication that Luffy was vastly superior to everyone else in his crew, namely that the person he was fighting was actually stared to be twice as strong as the people the next two strongest of the crew were fighting, and ever since then, the gap between the enemies each has faced has only gotten wider.

It works the absolute same way with every crew, excepting Buggy, who’s a gag anyway. An old, sick and dying Whitebeard two shot a guy that Marco couldn’t even hit. Roger contended with that very same individual in his prime, while an old Rayleigh sardonically admitted that he was struggling with someone at the level of the person Old Whitebeard buried in Marineford. Oden watched in awe as Roger and Whitebeard split the sky while he ended up fighting against someone that was presumable around the level of Roger’s second.

At the beginning of Wano, Kaido one shot Luffy who had just walked away from beating the strongest officer in a rival Yonko crew, showing the difference in the gap between Yonko and someone who was even above what a YC1 trends at. Zoro hit Kaido with his strongest attack, left a superficial wound which Kaido shrugged off and then turned his attention to someone who he thought could really fight him, who ended up actually fighting him in base form and was more to Kaido than the afterthought Zoro turned out to be. Luffy was implied to have broken through Kaido’s full power haki (Kaido acknowledged that he fought Luffy at full strength, or near it, last chapter), which includes advanced CoC, given that the top of Kaido’s club is cracked.

That the captains of the crew are massively stronger than the subordinates in that same crew has been a long established theme in the manga. If Luffy had ill intentions for anyone in his crew, they would be little more than a blood stain on the ground in relatively short order.
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Really? You're going to post that BS.

Zoro gave Kaido a scar. A feat only one other person (Oden) has achieved. Kaido was shaking and huffing afterwards. That wasn't a superficial wound. Stop trying to downplay that feat because Luffy can't do the same. Zoro did that in poor condition and on low energy.

Luffy fought Kaido in better condition and got his ass kicked again. If Zoro was in better condition he couldn't continued fighting Kaido and given him more scars.
 
Rekien

Rekien

‎
#3,930
#3,930
mly90 said:
Zoro and Sanji fandom get a lot of criticism but every once in a while you come across some Luffy fans with extreme superiority complex.
There is no way Zoro will ever be that much weaker than Luffy he is very close to him if not his equal already.
Click to expand...
Some luffyfans think Luffy is above Zoro in every possible aspect.
:luuh:
Even in this forum i already got into arguments for saying that Zoro has better endurance than Luffy.
 
C

chacharealsmooth

‎
#3,931
#3,931
Cinera said:
Maybe the above is true, but I'm not convinced by it.

Like I believe Yamato is considerably stronger than Sanji right now and would be considerably stronger than EOS Sanji.

If you want to dissuade me of the above belief, you need to argue against it.

You can't argue: "Yamato will join the crew therefore she'll remain under Sanji". If Yamato's feats and portrayal are better than Zoro/Luffy, I will place her above them. "But captain!, but Monster Trio!" would not persuade me otherwise.

That is how little credibility I grant to those kinds of arguments.

Fandom perceptions of crew dynamics are just not how I evaluate combat ability.

There are points in the past where I have placed Zoro above Luffy. Most recently:
  • Post timeskip up until WCI
  • In Act 3 up until Chapter 1010

Like you need to understand that "M3 power hierarchy" is something that I've never believed in during my 6 - 8 years of reading One Piece (as evidenced by the times I placed Zoro above Luffy). It just isn't something I believe in.


I place Sanji above Jimbe because Jimbe is struggling with Who's Who, whereas I expect Sanji to solo Queen.

I do not place Sanji above Jimbe because "M3 power hierarchy".


If Yamato joins the crew, Sanji will have to unequivocally demonstrate that he's above Yamato for me to accept it.

"M3 power hierarchy" is just an argument I never believed in.



I could explain why Yamato is very different for them. I could explain the many caveats to the above examples. I could explain why it's not analogous to Yamato, but like I shouldn't.

Explaining all of that wouldn't actually do anything. This is just not an argument I believe in. So like debating: "is Yamato truly analogous to Jimbe" serves no purpose.

Convincing me that Yamato is analogous to Jimbe wouldn't suddenly convince me of the "M3 power hierarchy" argument.
And I think that if I convinced you that Yamato is not analogous to any of your examples, it wouldn't dissuade you from this argument.

As I understand you, you believe that Sanji will be above Yamato because Sanji will always remain the 3rd strongest, so whether Yamato is an analogue to previous examples or not doesn't matter.

Honestly, this is very frustrating to debate.

I want to discuss the characters themselves.

Let me discuss Yamato's standing:
  • Ace said she was too strong to not be the captain.
  • She is a very likely conqueror (like Ace).
    • She may be able to enhance her attacks with Haoshoku.
    • This is an ability that "only a handful of the very strongest" possess.
  • She is the only child of a Top Tier (like Ace).
  • Her father has very high ambitions for her (again like Ace).
    • Kaido wants to make Yamato Shogun.
    • Whitebeard wants to make Ace Pirate King.
  • She stalemated Ace when they fought.
    • Damn, Oda is really driving home the parallels of Yamato as an Ace analogue.
  • She was trained by her father to be a mighty warrior.
    • Kaido taught her his techniques.
    • Kaido only respects strength.

Or Yamato's feats:
  • Oneshot a Tobi Roppo
    • Something that Linlin used a high tier technique to achieve
  • Oneshot a Number
    • Something that Luffy needed G4 to achieve
  • "Won" against G2/G3 Luffy
    • This was while not fighting back at all


It's fucking frustrating that your response to the above is: "lol, no. M3 power hierarchy".

That's not a conversation at all.
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As I have explained in a previous post, Sanji/Yamato comparisons depend on the powerscaling between Gaban and Oden. There are three options:
A) Oden was significantly stronger than Gaban and this implies that Yamato > Sanji will hold until the very end.
B) Oden and Gaban were equals and this implies that Sanji will catch up to Yamato at some point and they will be quite close/equal power level wise.
C) Gaban was still number three of Roger Pirates even after the arrival of Oden. This implies that Sanji will surprass Yamato at some point before the end of the series.
 
Kromage911

Kromage911

‎
#3,933
#3,933
Rekien said:
Some Luffy think Luffy is above Zoro in every possible aspect.
:luuh:
Even in this forum i already got into arguments for saying that Zoro has better endurance than Luffy.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Zoro definitely has better endurance, saying this as a Luffy fan. Durability is still debatable but Zoro kinda still has the upper hand after hakai.
 
Erkan12

Erkan12

‎
#3,934
#3,934
mly90 said:
you come across some Luffy fans with extreme superiority complex.
There is no way Zoro will ever be that much weaker than Luffy he is very close to him if not his equal already.
Click to expand...
Kromage911 said:
Yeah, he'll definitely always be close throughout the story but I doubt he'll ever surpass Luffy.
Click to expand...

:okay:

Reality check please. I am not even a Luffy fan.

It's not superiority complex. It's because how Oda portrays Luffy's opponents and Zoro's opponents.

Zoro's opponents are always equal or extremely close to Sanji's opponents, Sanji's opponents might be even superior to Zoro's (Absalom, Jabra, Kuroobi etc)

While Luffy's opponents are always on a different level than both Zoro's and Sanji's opponents.

There is also the fact that Luffy's bounty (1,5 billion) will always be on a different level than Zoro's and Sanji's (320-330 million) bounties. Despite the fact captain boosts the underlings bounty already.

This is Oda's work, doesn't come from any fanbase.

It's obvious that there is always a clear difference between Kaido - King/Queen, Prime WB - Marco, Big Mom - Katakuri etc etc

But when it comes Luffy - Zoro, that difference doesn't exist? Nope. It's all the same. It has nothing to do with superiority complex, it's because Luffy shouldn't be any different than his opponents.
 
Dr_Professor83

Dr_Professor83

False Idol
‎
#3,935
#3,935
OEKaneki said:
“Not every pirate ship operates the same,” yet you were the one who brought up the comparisons between Roger, Shanks, and Luffy, not me.

That aside, the rest of that is blatantly false. A quarter or so of the way through the series, we had an actual, tangible indication that Luffy was vastly superior to everyone else in his crew, namely that the person he was fighting was actually stared to be twice as strong as the people the next two strongest of the crew were fighting, and ever since then, the gap between the enemies each has faced has only gotten wider.

It works the absolute same way with every crew, excepting Buggy, who’s a gag anyway. An old, sick and dying Whitebeard two shot a guy that Marco couldn’t even hit. Roger contended with that very same individual in his prime, while an old Rayleigh sardonically admitted that he was struggling with someone at the level of the person Old Whitebeard buried in Marineford. Oden watched in awe as Roger and Whitebeard split the sky while he ended up fighting against someone that was presumable around the level of Roger’s second.

At the beginning of Wano, Kaido one shot Luffy who had just walked away from beating the strongest officer in a rival Yonko crew, showing the difference in the gap between Yonko and someone who was even above what a YC1 trends at. Zoro hit Kaido with his strongest attack, left a superficial wound which Kaido shrugged off and then turned his attention to someone who he thought could really fight him, who ended up actually fighting him in base form and was more to Kaido than the afterthought Zoro turned out to be. Luffy was implied to have broken through Kaido’s full power haki (Kaido acknowledged that he fought Luffy at full strength, or near it, last chapter), which includes advanced CoC, given that the top of Kaido’s club is cracked.

That the captains of the crew are massively stronger than the subordinates in that same crew has been a long established theme in the manga. If Luffy had ill intentions for anyone in his crew, they would be little more than a blood stain on the ground in relatively short order.
Click to expand...
There is no way Luffy is twice as strong as Zoro lol. He’s obviously stronger but to think it’s a gap that big is wild. The Lucci/Kaku/Jabra fights actually point to Zoro and Sanji being a lot closer because once they busted out Asura and DJ it wasn’t even close. If they opened with those attacks it’s a neg dif fight for both. Where as Luffy used his new power up his entire fight against Lucci and it took absolutely everything in him and them some. If anything Oda went out of his way to show their closeness with how those three fights played out.
 
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