Current Events Zoro vs King makes ZKK pointless
- Thread starter Monkey D Theories
- Start date
Nah Wano Ryuma is clearly based off of the Ryuma in monsters.
Also, we know that Ryuma slayed a dragon that was flying over flower the capital, which is technically what Zoro did this chapter as we know Onigashima is hovering so close to the capital that we can actually see it. Parallel is close enough imo.
Also the bit about Wano citizens actually seeing it is just your assumption. That wasn't specifically stated in the manga.
In monsters, when a Dragon attacked the town all of the citizens were evacuated and the only person who saw it was Flare, so it's possible that the same happened when Ryuma killed a Dragon as well.
Anyways I don't think the Wano citizens seeing it or not really makes a difference, if the point is to show that Zoro is similar to Ryuma, as we've already gotten that in chapter 1023 with Hyogoro and Kawamatsu.
But anyways, if the current chapter isn't enough to convince you otherwise, I don't think anything will so no sense in debating this. We'd just have to wait and see till Kaido is defeated and whether Zoro is even able to stand by then.
Also, we know that Ryuma slayed a dragon that was flying over flower the capital, which is technically what Zoro did this chapter as we know Onigashima is hovering so close to the capital that we can actually see it. Parallel is close enough imo.
Also the bit about Wano citizens actually seeing it is just your assumption. That wasn't specifically stated in the manga.
In monsters, when a Dragon attacked the town all of the citizens were evacuated and the only person who saw it was Flare, so it's possible that the same happened when Ryuma killed a Dragon as well.
Anyways I don't think the Wano citizens seeing it or not really makes a difference, if the point is to show that Zoro is similar to Ryuma, as we've already gotten that in chapter 1023 with Hyogoro and Kawamatsu.
But anyways, if the current chapter isn't enough to convince you otherwise, I don't think anything will so no sense in debating this. We'd just have to wait and see till Kaido is defeated and whether Zoro is even able to stand by then.
Wrong.
My expected scenario for ZKK is Kaido losing to Luffy in their current 1 vs 1. After Kaido's defeat, he later recovers and stands up again. Out of spite, he decides to destroy the Flower Capital.
He turns into an even bigger dragon and unleashes a massive Boro Breath to erase the capital. Zoro cuts the Boro Breath and mortally wounds the dragon with Hiryuu Kaen.
Luffy wouldn't fail to defeat Kaido, Kaido will just recover again after his defeat.
It's not just to parallel Ryuma. When Zoro first came to Wano, he was scorned as a murderer and grave robber:
Someone who stole Wano's national treasure and caused misfortune to befall the country as they incurred the wrath of the Sword God:
Even the person most sympathetic to Zoro (Hiyori) insisted that he return their treasure:
Stressing that it's revered as a relic:
He is going to visit Ryuma's grave after the end of the war:
Before that visit, he needs to be acknowledged as a hero to the people of Wano. He must be vindicated. Ryuma's soul and Shusui itself personally chose Zoro after all:
Saving Wano in its most dire moment and coincidentally replicating Ryuma's legend does that.
Defeating King does not do that. None of the people in the Flower Capital care about King. King is not the source of their torment and oppression. He was never a threat to them.
ZKK isn't necessary to get a Ryuma parallel. It doesn't need to happen for the fanservice of Zoro cutting a dragon. It's actually important for Zoro's character that he's vindicated in this way to the people of Wanokuni.
This is what I mean by: "you don't even understand ZKK". Your complaints don't actually engage with the theory. You're refuting and debunking a caricature of the theory, not the actual theory.
Here's a thorough explanation of the Ryuma argument for ZKK.
Aside from Ryuma, Kaido's words of a "monster samurai" of the likes of Kozuki Oden still haven't been addressed:
Kaido on Zoro/Enma:
Pray tell, what was the purpose of these scenes?
And he will indeed defeat Kaido.
Answered above.
Wrong. If Linlin falls at all, it would be to Kidd and Law. Luffy's fight is with Kaido.
- Luffy is Zoro's captain.
- All of Zoro's accomplishments translate to Luffy's accomplishments.
- Luffy will defeat Kaido.
- He'll shatter the record of "in a 1 vs 1, always bet on Kaido".
- He'll break Kaido's myth as the strongest creature.
- Luffy will become the Emperor to replace Kaido.
My expected scenario for ZKK is Kaido losing to Luffy in their current 1 vs 1. After Kaido's defeat, he later recovers and stands up again. Out of spite, he decides to destroy the Flower Capital.
He turns into an even bigger dragon and unleashes a massive Boro Breath to erase the capital. Zoro cuts the Boro Breath and mortally wounds the dragon with Hiryuu Kaen.
Luffy wouldn't fail to defeat Kaido, Kaido will just recover again after his defeat.
It's not just to parallel Ryuma. When Zoro first came to Wano, he was scorned as a murderer and grave robber:
Someone who stole Wano's national treasure and caused misfortune to befall the country as they incurred the wrath of the Sword God:
Even the person most sympathetic to Zoro (Hiyori) insisted that he return their treasure:
Stressing that it's revered as a relic:
He is going to visit Ryuma's grave after the end of the war:
Before that visit, he needs to be acknowledged as a hero to the people of Wano. He must be vindicated. Ryuma's soul and Shusui itself personally chose Zoro after all:
Saving Wano in its most dire moment and coincidentally replicating Ryuma's legend does that.
Defeating King does not do that. None of the people in the Flower Capital care about King. King is not the source of their torment and oppression. He was never a threat to them.
ZKK isn't necessary to get a Ryuma parallel. It doesn't need to happen for the fanservice of Zoro cutting a dragon. It's actually important for Zoro's character that he's vindicated in this way to the people of Wanokuni.
This is what I mean by: "you don't even understand ZKK". Your complaints don't actually engage with the theory. You're refuting and debunking a caricature of the theory, not the actual theory.
Here's a thorough explanation of the Ryuma argument for ZKK.
Aside from Ryuma, Kaido's words of a "monster samurai" of the likes of Kozuki Oden still haven't been addressed:
Kaido on Zoro/Enma:
Pray tell, what was the purpose of these scenes?
And he will indeed defeat Kaido.
Answered above.
Wrong. If Linlin falls at all, it would be to Kidd and Law. Luffy's fight is with Kaido.
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It's not just to parallel Ryuma. When Zoro first came to Wano, he was scorned as a murderer and grave robber:
Someone who stole Wano's national treasure and caused misfortune to befall the country as they incurred the wrath of the Sword God:
Even the person most sympathetic to Zoro (Hiyori) insisted that he return their treasure:
Stressing that it's revered as a relic:
He is going to visit Ryuma's grave after the end of the war:
Before that visit, he needs to be acknowledged as a hero to the people of Wano. He must be vindicated. Ryuma's soul and Shusui itself personally chose Zoro after all:
Saving Wano in its most dire moment and coincidentally replicating Ryuma's legend does that.
Defeating King does not do that. None of the people in the Flower Capital care about King. King is not the source of their torment and oppression. He was never a threat to them.
ZKK isn't necessary to get a Ryuma parallel. It doesn't need to happen for the fanservice of Zoro cutting a dragon. It's actually important for Zoro's character that he's vindicated in this way to the people of Wanokuni.
This is what I mean by: "you don't even understand ZKK". Your complaints don't actually engage with the theory. You're refuting and debunking a caricature of the theory, not the actual theory.
Here's a thorough explanation of the Ryuma argument for ZKK.
Before that visit, he needs to be acknowledged as a hero to the people of Wano. He must be vindicated. Ryuma's soul and Shusui itself personally chose Zoro after all:
Defeating King does not do that. None of the people in the Flower Capital care about King. King is not the source of their torment and oppression. He was never a threat to them.
ZKK isn't necessary to get a Ryuma parallel. It doesn't need to happen for the fanservice of Zoro cutting a dragon. It's actually important for Zoro's character that he's vindicated in this way to the people of Wanokuni.
This is what I mean by: "you don't even understand ZKK". Your complaints don't actually engage with the theory. You're refuting and debunking a caricature of the theory, not the actual theory.
Here's a thorough explanation of the Ryuma argument for ZKK.
The Ryuma argument for ZKK was never solely about Zoro paralleling Ryuma by slaying a dragon.
- It's a conclusion to Zoro's plot threads with Shusui, Ryuma and Enma.
- Plot threads that began long ago in Thriller Bark.
- It's a vindication of Zoro's character.
- He'll transform from a grave robber and murderer to a National Hero.
- And it's an important step in the forging of Zoro's own legend.
- He'll be recognised as the "Second Ryuma":
Zoro's connection to Ryuma was already highlighted at the start of his battle with King:
So Zoro being the Second Ryuma is a deliberate decision on Oda’s part and not something that he has abandoned.
- He'll be recognised as the "Second Ryuma":
@Den_Den_Mushi, @KiriNigiri.
@Garp the Fist, @Nidai_Kitetsu.
I'd like you guys to read the entire thing, but I'm curious what you think about Oda further reinforcing the connection between Zoro and Kaido with this scene:
Is it evidence that he has not yet discarded the Monster Samurai plot line?
@Garp the Fist, @Nidai_Kitetsu.
I'd like you guys to read the entire thing, but I'm curious what you think about Oda further reinforcing the connection between Zoro and Kaido with this scene:
Is it evidence that he has not yet discarded the Monster Samurai plot line?
No it doesn't.
Zoro hasn't even reached Oden's mastery of Enma yet. He says that fighting with Enma fully unleashed would kill him:
Meanwhile, Oden could wield Enma as if it were as light as a feather:
The Dragon Slaying moment in Monsters is not Ryuma's Dragon Slaying moment in One Piece.
In One Piece, Ryuma slayed a dragon over the Flower Capital.
The town in Monsters was a Western town, and it wasn't ever mentioned to be a capital city, let alone Wano's.
No, Onigashima is not flying over the Flower Capital:
The above is the latest scan of Onigashima's position we have (from 1034).
A random Western Town is not the Flower Capital.
See above. The Monsters dragon slaying scene isn't exactly how it played out in One Piece history. For one, the settings are very different.
It would be funny if Enma turned black after defeating King next chapter.
Meanwhile, Oden could wield Enma as if it were as light as a feather:
The Dragon Slaying moment in Monsters is not Ryuma's Dragon Slaying moment in One Piece.
In One Piece, Ryuma slayed a dragon over the Flower Capital.
The town in Monsters was a Western town, and it wasn't ever mentioned to be a capital city, let alone Wano's.
No, Onigashima is not flying over the Flower Capital:
The above is the latest scan of Onigashima's position we have (from 1034).
A random Western Town is not the Flower Capital.
See above. The Monsters dragon slaying scene isn't exactly how it played out in One Piece history. For one, the settings are very different.
IDC about most of the stuff being said here but here are a few of my thought.
Defeating King is never going to make Zoro the Sword God. That is an incredible title and no way he gets it for beating someone like King. If he beats Mihawk EOS and gets it, sure, I mean Mihawk is WSS so that is a big opponent. Remember that Mihawk is WSS not sword god, Ryuma is the only one to get it. To get that, Zoro needs an insane feat. Also, I dont think he is getting that title in Wano. But beating King does add to his legacy, people will talk about how Zoro beat a Lunarian a.k.a. god's race.
Also, I don't think King is much more durable than Kaido. He is not taking the abuse that Kaido took and surviving. I am sorry, that is just not how I see it. He is insanely durable though but not as durable as Kaido. About that Kaido's neck durability... I don't get this man, this kinda makes it more of a logical argument which I am not a fan of with regards to OP. Zoro beheading Kaido is not about just cutting Kaido's neck, I know that sounds weird but I believe it is more symbolic as in you are killing an unkillable yonko. If Zoro beheads Kaido, it will be one of the greatest feats in OP history. You are basically giving Zoro an attack that can kill someone who is arguable strongest in the OP verse or Top 1-5 cuz I believe Top 5 in OP are very close with not much difference. My personal belief is that if Zoro is killing Kaido he will use a new B.O.A.T technique to cut or burn Kaido's soul itself. Understand the life force of Kaido and his will and cut it. The fire thing is related to how Ryuma burned after Zoro cut him, Kaido's soul will burn after Zoro cut him.
Now answering the ZKK theory. I got no idea. I believe in the foreshadowing and the hints that point to it. But if Oda says Zoro is done, alright, imma move on and think about another theory. I just believe in the theory based on what I have seen, how it happens is anyone's guess. And personally, right now, I don't see why Zoro would want to kill Kaido. I have been of this opinion since the start, Zoro needs an emotional reason to kill Kaido. He needs it much more badly now that he is away from Kaido, and Luffy did tell him he is going to take care of it. So why will Zoro go back now? He needs a strong reason and emotional attachment to it. If Oda doesn't build that then my confidence in ZKK will slowly diminish, I mean it is already diminishing but imma wait till the end. IMO, the next few chapters will give us a definitive answer to that. Oda will make it clear if Zoro has anything left to do in Wano.
Defeating King is never going to make Zoro the Sword God. That is an incredible title and no way he gets it for beating someone like King. If he beats Mihawk EOS and gets it, sure, I mean Mihawk is WSS so that is a big opponent. Remember that Mihawk is WSS not sword god, Ryuma is the only one to get it. To get that, Zoro needs an insane feat. Also, I dont think he is getting that title in Wano. But beating King does add to his legacy, people will talk about how Zoro beat a Lunarian a.k.a. god's race.
Also, I don't think King is much more durable than Kaido. He is not taking the abuse that Kaido took and surviving. I am sorry, that is just not how I see it. He is insanely durable though but not as durable as Kaido. About that Kaido's neck durability... I don't get this man, this kinda makes it more of a logical argument which I am not a fan of with regards to OP. Zoro beheading Kaido is not about just cutting Kaido's neck, I know that sounds weird but I believe it is more symbolic as in you are killing an unkillable yonko. If Zoro beheads Kaido, it will be one of the greatest feats in OP history. You are basically giving Zoro an attack that can kill someone who is arguable strongest in the OP verse or Top 1-5 cuz I believe Top 5 in OP are very close with not much difference. My personal belief is that if Zoro is killing Kaido he will use a new B.O.A.T technique to cut or burn Kaido's soul itself. Understand the life force of Kaido and his will and cut it. The fire thing is related to how Ryuma burned after Zoro cut him, Kaido's soul will burn after Zoro cut him.
Now answering the ZKK theory. I got no idea. I believe in the foreshadowing and the hints that point to it. But if Oda says Zoro is done, alright, imma move on and think about another theory. I just believe in the theory based on what I have seen, how it happens is anyone's guess. And personally, right now, I don't see why Zoro would want to kill Kaido. I have been of this opinion since the start, Zoro needs an emotional reason to kill Kaido. He needs it much more badly now that he is away from Kaido, and Luffy did tell him he is going to take care of it. So why will Zoro go back now? He needs a strong reason and emotional attachment to it. If Oda doesn't build that then my confidence in ZKK will slowly diminish, I mean it is already diminishing but imma wait till the end. IMO, the next few chapters will give us a definitive answer to that. Oda will make it clear if Zoro has anything left to do in Wano.
@Den_Den_Mushi you know what it strike me also this line: The ending of Wano are will be "surprising".
What does that mean? Well that the fan (casual reader) will not get the classic Luffy defeat the bad guy with just his best shot because that the normality for One Piece. One Piece never had an antagonist that died, well that could be the main surprise that Shimizu is saying in this interview. Especially in an arc about Samurai,Dragons and legends connected to Wano.
Look luffy using some new epic form is certain but that is not an ending surprise for Wano.
Shanks arriving to Wano, could be but doesnt make sense in term of narrative because he is after black beard.
We have the CP0 in Wano, but also that is not a surprise ending.
Seeing a dragon flying over the capital and getting chop that is a surprising ending for casual reader (because it would connect Wanted aka Monster one of the first art work of Oda with One Piece).
a tag team between Luffy&Zoro to end Wano main bady isnt bad for Luffy and neither Zoro.
What does that mean? Well that the fan (casual reader) will not get the classic Luffy defeat the bad guy with just his best shot because that the normality for One Piece. One Piece never had an antagonist that died, well that could be the main surprise that Shimizu is saying in this interview. Especially in an arc about Samurai,Dragons and legends connected to Wano.
Look luffy using some new epic form is certain but that is not an ending surprise for Wano.
Shanks arriving to Wano, could be but doesnt make sense in term of narrative because he is after black beard.
We have the CP0 in Wano, but also that is not a surprise ending.
Seeing a dragon flying over the capital and getting chop that is a surprising ending for casual reader (because it would connect Wanted aka Monster one of the first art work of Oda with One Piece).
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a tag team between Luffy&Zoro to end Wano main bady isnt bad for Luffy and neither Zoro.
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Don't agree at all. Defeating King is nothing compared to the legend of Ryuma. No one even saw this. Zoro should become some kind of new legend for Wano country. The only way to behead Kaido before all Wano citizens, Oden's samurai, and others. For now, Zoro isn't different from Franky, Jimbe, Sanji because he just defeated one of Kaido's subordinates. It's not enough to be special in Wano. It's Wano country after all, the country of swordsmen and where is Ryuma from. It'll be stupid to end Zoro's role like this.
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Just Fyi in monsters the only person that saw Ryuma actually kill a Dragon was Flare (iirc Cyrano was already defeated by Ryuma prior to it). So the argument that the people in the capital have to see it doesn't really hold any water.
At this point, arguing ZKK will happen is just being stubborn and refusing to accept reality imo. There was really no reason for Oda to draw in King's flame dragon otherwise. Only sensible explanation for it is that he wanted to somewhat satisfy the desire for it.
Personally I feel this Ryuma parallel was already fulfilled on PH and was much better than this one but well I can somewhat understand why Oda decided to draw it again Wano given the Zoro/Ryuma parallels.
Zoro has already had is time in the sun in the Kaido with the scar he gave him, he isn't killing him.
Notion was always ridiculous imo and this chapter I think puts a nail in that coffin but well I digress
At this point, arguing ZKK will happen is just being stubborn and refusing to accept reality imo. There was really no reason for Oda to draw in King's flame dragon otherwise. Only sensible explanation for it is that he wanted to somewhat satisfy the desire for it.
Personally I feel this Ryuma parallel was already fulfilled on PH and was much better than this one but well I can somewhat understand why Oda decided to draw it again Wano given the Zoro/Ryuma parallels.
Zoro has already had is time in the sun in the Kaido with the scar he gave him, he isn't killing him.
Notion was always ridiculous imo and this chapter I think puts a nail in that coffin but well I digress
Why?
Slaying the magma dragon was utterly meaningless and only "cool". It doesn't affect the Zoro/Ryuma/Shusui plot line and doesn't contribute to Zoro forging his own legend.
When Zoro cut Pica's golem, he did so before all the people of Dressrosa and saved King Riku and everyone else on the Royal Plateau from impending doom. If Zoro defeating King was meant to parallel the Ryuma feat, then it would have happened under similar circumstances:
- It was not over the Flower Capital:
-
- It was not witnessed by the citizens of Wano.
- Thus no connection between this and Ryuma's own legend can be drawn.
- Nor can the rest of Wano notice Zoro's similarity to Ryuma.
- Zoro did not save anyone by slaying King's magma dragon.
- Thus he can't become a hero from this accomplishment.
Slaying the magma dragon was utterly meaningless and only "cool". It doesn't affect the Zoro/Ryuma/Shusui plot line and doesn't contribute to Zoro forging his own legend.
When Zoro cut Pica's golem, he did so before all the people of Dressrosa and saved King Riku and everyone else on the Royal Plateau from impending doom. If Zoro defeating King was meant to parallel the Ryuma feat, then it would have happened under similar circumstances:
