General & Others Next Strawhat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet

[Gaimon The Pirate]

I won't ignore his messages, but at this point it's clear that he's trolling or is arguing in bad faith, so whoever answer to his messages needs to have clear that he WON'T get an honest answer.
Goalposts will be shifted and nothing will be gained, because there is just bad faith on the other end.

I thought I couldn't give a damn to whether or not Carrot would have joined, but now I really hope she won't.

 

[Staticshadic]

I won't ignore his messages, but at this point it's clear that he's trolling or is arguing in bad faith, so whoever answer to his messages needs to have clear that he WON'T get an honest answer.
Goalposts will be shifted and nothing will be gained, because there is just bad faith on the other end.

I thought I couldn't give a damn to whether or not Carrot would have joined, but now I really hope she won't.

The fact Carrot hasn’t been shown a throughout wano. Is very telling she might not join the crew at all. She is becoming more like paulie in this instance. As well there seems to be more marketing going for Yamato throughout this arc while carrot has gotten crickets. Even though she made in top ten in poll throughout world it does not seem matter when comes to one-piece official youtube channel and to the wano cover in the anime. There are no hints future arc that will tell us anything more about her as character since she has not talk about anything regarding her past life. Yamato has talk about the dawn while carrot has remain silent what is it about. Yamato is doing more things while carrot has been MIA throughout this arc. Carrot personal trauma has resolve by non-strawhats. Yamato situation is being resolve by Luffy and the other strawhats.

 

[Pot Goblin]

Vivi literally spent 4 arcs with the SHs and bonded so much that even the author considered making her an official SH. But somehow Carrot has a better relationship with the crew despite barely being aorund half of them.

Vivi's bond with the Straw Hats was so well done that it's an unironic opinion in the community that she'll eventually rejoin the crew. Not many characters can be split from a group for more than a decade but still be considered a front runner for a crew member.

I think an arguement can be made that Carrot's interactions with the Straw Hats pre-Chapter 1006 is at the very least on par with some of the other members. But I agree that saying she's superior to even Vivi is taking it a bit too far. Especially since Carrot's campaign to be a crewmate is seriously struggling as of right now.

 

[jordin]

No

Amazing and detailed counter

I won't ignore his messages, but at this point it's clear that he's trolling or is arguing in bad faith, so whoever answer to his messages needs to have clear that he WON'T get an honest answer.
Goalposts will be shifted and nothing will be gained, because there is just bad faith on the other end.

I thought I couldn't give a damn to whether or not Carrot would have joined, but now I really hope she won't.

Don't worry, no one here has taken him seriously for months. People only talk to him for fun and since there's no other person that argues pro Carrot.

 

[Logiko]

Vivi literally spent 4 arcs with the SHs and bonded so much that even the author considered making her an official SH. But somehow Carrot has a better relationship with the crew despite barely being aorund half of them.

And Carrot spent 3 arcs with the strawhats, what's your point ? Yes, better quality relationship with half the crew. but if I'm really being honest, i'm mostly talking about the bond between Chopper/Carrot and a bit of the bond Nami/Carrot and Sanji/Carrot

I won't ignore his messages, but at this point it's clear that he's trolling or is arguing in bad faith, so whoever answer to his messages needs to have clear that he WON'T get an honest answer.
Goalposts will be shifted and nothing will be gained, because there is just bad faith on the other end.

I thought I couldn't give a damn to whether or not Carrot would have joined, but now I really hope she won't.

The more your are are going to name me a troll, the deeper into storytelling theory I will dive, and the harder for you it will be to understand.. don't tempt me.

If you are basing your point of you on the hatred you have on another fan, this is only showing you the degree of rightfulness you have in front of the story...
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The fact Carrot hasn’t been shown a throughout wano. Is very telling she might not join the crew at all. She is becoming more like paulie in this instance. As well there seems to be more marketing going for Yamato throughout this arc while carrot has gotten crickets. Even though she made in top ten in poll throughout world it does not seem matter when comes to one-piece official youtube channel and to the wano cover in the anime. There are no hints future arc that will tell us anything more about her as character since she has not talk about anything regarding her past life. Yamato has talk about the dawn while carrot has remain silent what is it about. Yamato is doing more things while carrot has been MIA throughout this arc. Carrot personal trauma has resolve by non-strawhats. Yamato situation is being resolve by Luffy and the other strawhats.

Stop repeating the same BS. Carrot's personnal conflict has NOT been resolved yet. If you want to talk about storytelling, talk about it correctly at least.
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Amazing and detailed counter

Don't worry, no one here has taken him seriously for months. People only talk to him for fun and since there's no other person that argues pro Carrot.

I know.. And that why you are still blinded by your bias on Yamato.. and this is also why you won't understand the choice Oda will make for her at the end of the arc.

Only one personn is clever enough here to actually listen to me without too much bias and it's @Sigran101

 

[Sigran101]

 

[Logiko]

:cheers:

 

[Staticshadic]

And Carrot spent 3 arcs with the strawhats, what's your point ? Yes, better quality relationship with half the crew. but if I'm really being honest, i'm mostly talking about the bond between Chopper/Carrot and a bit of the bond Nami/Carrot and Sanji/Carrot





The more your are are going to name me a troll, the deeper into storytelling theory I will dive, and the harder for you it will be to understand.. don't tempt me.

If you are basing your point of you on the hatred you have on another fan, this is only showing you the degree of rightfulness you have in front of the story...
[automerge]1641067711[/automerge]


Stop repeating the same BS. Carrot's personnal conflict has NOT been resolved yet. If you want to talk about storytelling, talk about it correctly at least.
[automerge]1641067832[/automerge]


I know.. And that why you are still blinded by your bias on Yamato.. and this is also why you won't understand the choice Oda will make for her at the end of the arc.

Only one personn is clever enough here to actually listen to me without too much bias and it's @Sigran101

Carrot spent three arcs only of two of them showing herself as a supportive role pushing the other characters along. Rather than being the voice reason for Luffy and rest strawhats. Her flashback is like paulie, otama, chew chew and bartolomeo. Whole cake island was not center around her as a character showing her importance within the arc. The only big shiny moment that fans look back on in whole cake island is her transformation into suslong avoiding slash by daifku and taking out random fodder in that state.



When wano came around she was push to the background and has been sideline throughout this arc. She was never officially called a member of the team. Yamato stole her thunder. Yamato talks about dawn pedro spoke of. Her flashback more extendable. Her zone transformation is basically 24/7 suslong already. She is outcast and she would be heavily discriminate by the world around her. Not just because she is Oni but she also the daughter one of the four emperors of the sea. She has been advertised in the one-piece YouTube channel. Hell, the girl even knows more about Luffy’s hidden goal that most of strawhats are unaware of. She has insert herself into the plot before she met Luffy in the first place. Yamato might not be crew member just yet. But The fact is she is a lot more common outlines with the rest of crew. The only thing she is missing specific role on the team.

For you

Carrot does not need a sad past to flesh her character out even more
she does not have to do anything important throughout wano she just has to smile look pretty
Luffy or none strawhats do not have change her life on personal level to motivate to get stronger
She does not have talk about dawn pedro spoke of.
All she needs to do is sneaked aboard on Luffy's ship
look at her supportive role in whole cake island. Do not pay attention surrounding absence throughout wano.
There are no personal conflicts carrot has in store for us.
All her Personal enemies have already been defeated by non strawhats members.
That's makes perfect being member of grand fleet.

 

[Logiko]

Thanks @Mods finally some action.
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Carrot spent three arcs only of two of them showing herself as a supportive role pushing the other characters along. Rather than being the voice reason for Luffy and rest strawhats. Her flashback is like paulie, otama, chew chew and bartolomeo. Whole cake island was not center around her as a character showing her importance within the arc. The only big shiny moment that fans look back on in whole cake island is her transformation into suslong avoiding slash by daifku and taking out random fodder in that state.

You are right, Carrot (in surface) doesn't seems to be in the center of the narration of Whole cake. But when you look closer:

- The Themes of parenthood and inherited Will
- The representation of Wonder and the discovery of a welcoming yet extremelly dangerous world
- The different reference to Carrot symbolims (The moon rabbit, Alice etc.)
- The way she slowly takes her place as a look-out
- The way Pedro's death is protrayed..

and many other little things.. shows that in fact, Carrot is indeed in the center of the story, just under the surface. Like a ghost story. And that's one of the thing that made me so interested in Carrot's story. Something is their, you can't really put your hand on it, but Oda drew and wrote Carrot with purpose on this arc.

When wano came around she was push to the background and has been sideline throughout this arc. She was never officially called a member of the team. Yamato stole her thunder. Yamato talks about dawn pedro spoke of. Her flashback more extendable. Her zone transformation is basically 24/7 suslong already. She is outcast and she would be heavily discriminate by the world around her. Not just because she is Oni but she also the daughter one of the four emperors of the sea. She has been advertised in the one-piece YouTube channel. Hell, the girl even knows more about Luffy’s hidden goal that most of strawhats are unaware of. She has insert herself into the plot before she met Luffy in the first place. Yamato might not be crew member just yet. But The fact is she is a lot more common outlines with the rest of crew. The only thing she is missing specific role on the team.

Yamato only has similarities with the reste of the crew on the surface.. when you add things up (like I did here in my blog), that's not what really appears.

For you

Carrot does not need a sad past to flesh her character out even more
she does not have to do anything important throughout wano she just has to smile look pretty
Luffy or none strawhats do not have change her life on personal level to motivate to get stronger
She does not have talk about dawn pedro spoke of.
All she needs to do is sneaked aboard on Luffy's ship
look at her supportive role in whole cake island. Do not pay attention surrounding absence throughout wano.
There are no personal conflicts carrot has in store for us.
All her Personal enemies have already been defeated by non strawhats members.
That's makes perfect being member of grand fleet.

I swear.. people should really listen to what I'm saying because I can't keep repeating myself over and over again.. all the more so when all of you are deforming what I say.

- No. I did NOT say that Carrot does not need a sad past. I said that Carrot's tragedy (a tragedy in one piece serves a purpose, it setup the needs of the characters, the desire of the character, and the moral pillar) didn't need to be set in the past. In other words, Carrot sad past, ALREADY happened.

- Luffy and the others already changed her life by giving her the strenght to get out of her confort zone. But a personnal conflict NEEDS to be solved by the character, and that's what I'm interested in right now.

- Carrot did not talk about the Dawn yet, but it's in the subtext of her character arc.

- Yes, you can look at Carrot's lack of presence in Wano but it doesn't change anything about what happen in whole cake. In other words, take that as a scale.

Carrot begun at 0 of importance on Zou.. then went up to 10 in Whole cake.. The fact that the importance of Carrot in Wano is 2 or 3 doesn't change the number at the end. Do you understand ? in a story like One Piece you can't just erease the importance of a character because this character was not present in a single arc. in fact you should instead ask yourself WHY this character was not present. And the answer might surprise you.. literrally.

- Yes all we need for Carrot, now, is for her to sneak on the ship, nothing more. And that's a narrative fact.

- There IS a personnal conflict written in subtext with Carrot right now. I've talk about it long enough right above those post.

- Carrot's ennemy is not Perospero, it's the danger of the seas.

- Grand fleet ?

No for three reason:

- There won't be any more fleet member for THIS reason (this is a link to one of my twitter threads) about the creation of the SH G fleet.
- Carrot is TOO important to become a secondary character in the mink fleet. She has been the representation of the mink tribe for years now, so the only place for her is not as a member, but as a captain... BUT...
- Carrot cahracterization is the opposite of the one of a leader. NEver Carrot was depicted leading anyone or anything. Carrot is a follower. And by the principle of storytelling, you can't just make a character a leader or independant if they were not depicted like it first?

Conclusion: Carrot can't either be a captain nor a simple member of a fleet or a crew on the fleet.

Her only future can be therefore either :

- Zou
- Wano.
- The strawhats.

By logic, Wano is not a real possibility as Carrot was not depicted having that much fun or appreciation for it. Which leave Zou and the Strawhat. I have made THIS thread (again twitter) about the constant argument of "Carrot coming back to ZOu" and I will soon write an article about it. The conclusion is that a return to Zou is veruy unliekly as Carrot is still young and eager to discover new things.

So it leave us with only one possibility.. really it's just a matter of logic.

Carrot will leave with the strawhats. Now, the question is how.. and regarding her cahracterization, the best answer is by being - again - the stowaway.

Sorry for all the mistakes, i'm tired.

 

[jordin]

Thanks @Mods finally some action.
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You are right, Carrot (in surface) doesn't seems to be in the center of the narration of Whole cake. But when you look closer:

- The Themes of parenthood and inherited Will
- The representation of Wonder and the discovery of a welcoming yet extremelly dangerous world
- The different reference to Carrot symbolims (The moon rabbit, Alice etc.)
- The way she slowly takes her place as a look-out
- The way Pedro's death is protrayed..

and many other little things.. shows that in fact, Carrot is indeed in the center of the story, just under the surface. Like a ghost story. And that's one of the thing that made me so interested in Carrot's story. Something is their, you can't really put your hand on it, but Oda drew and wrote Carrot with purpose on this arc.




Yamato only has similarities with the reste of the crew on the surface.. when you add things up (like I did here in my blog), that's not what really appears.




I swear.. people should really listen to what I'm saying because I can't keep repeating myself over and over again.. all the more so when all of you are deforming what I say.

- No. I did NOT say that Carrot does not need a sad past. I said that Carrot's tragedy (a tragedy in one piece serves a purpose, it setup the needs of the characters, the desire of the character, and the moral pillar) didn't need to be set in the past. In other words, Carrot sad past, ALREADY happened.

- Luffy and the others already changed her life by giving her the strenght to get out of her confort zone. But a personnal conflict NEEDS to be solved by the character, and that's what I'm interested in right now.

- Carrot did not talk about the Dawn yet, but it's in the subtext of her character arc.

- Yes, you can look at Carrot's lack of presence in Wano but it doesn't change anything about what happen in whole cake. In other words, take that as a scale.

Carrot begun at 0 of importance on Zou.. then went up to 10 in Whole cake.. The fact that the importance of Carrot in Wano is 2 or 3 doesn't change the number at the end. Do you understand ? in a story like One Piece you can't just erease the importance of a character because this character was not present in a single arc. in fact you should instead ask yourself WHY this character was not present. And the answer might surprise you.. literrally.

- Yes all we need for Carrot, now, is for her to sneak on the ship, nothing more. And that's a narrative fact.

- There IS a personnal conflict written in subtext with Carrot right now. I've talk about it long enough right above those post.

- Carrot's ennemy is not Perospero, it's the danger of the seas.

- Grand fleet ?

No for three reason:

- There won't be any more fleet member for THIS reason (this is a link to one of my twitter threads) about the creation of the SH G fleet.
- Carrot is TOO important to become a secondary character in the mink fleet. She has been the representation of the mink tribe for years now, so the only place for her is not as a member, but as a captain... BUT...
- Carrot cahracterization is the opposite of the one of a leader. NEver Carrot was depicted leading anyone or anything. Carrot is a follower. And by the principle of storytelling, you can't just make a character a leader or independant if they were not depicted like it first?

Conclusion: Carrot can't either be a captain nor a simple member of a fleet or a crew on the fleet.

Her only future can be therefore either :

- Zou
- Wano.
- The strawhats.

By logic, Wano is not a real possibility as Carrot was not depicted having that much fun or appreciation for it. Which leave Zou and the Strawhat. I have made THIS thread (again twitter) about the constant argument of "Carrot coming back to ZOu" and I will soon write an article about it. The conclusion is that a return to Zou is veruy unliekly as Carrot is still young and eager to discover new things.

So it leave us with only one possibility.. really it's just a matter of logic.

Carrot will leave with the strawhats. Now, the question is how.. and regarding her cahracterization, the best answer is by being - again - the stowaway.

Sorry for all the mistakes, i'm tired.

So are we allowed to disagree and counter any of this or is that too biased and makes us pigeons?

 

[Sigran101]

So are we allowed to disagree and counter any of this or is that too biased and makes us pigeons?

"You are a pidgeon" is the new "bad faith argument"

 

[Logiko]

So are we allowed to disagree and counter any of this or is that too biased and makes us pigeons?

You can debate all you want, I love to that. The thing that tends to tikles me is when I need to repeat x1000 the same thing and being called a troll or sexist s** because of it.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Straw Hat Crew Concept Sketch

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but in the bottom left corner of this sketch, "bolero" is written and doesn't seem connected to any of the crew. Think it means anything? Jinbe was erased in an earlier version of this sketch and put back in, maybe something similar happened with another character?

 

[Logiko]

"You are a pidgeon" is the new "bad faith argument"

I mean.. when I try to explain high end storytelling point and people just call me troll.. What other choice I have lol?

 

[Sigran101]

I mean.. when I try to explain high end storytelling point and people just call me troll.. What other choice I have lol?

I don't know, maybe accept that people disagree with you and move on?

 

[Logiko]

Straw Hat Crew Concept Sketch

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but in the bottom left corner of this sketch, "bolero" is written and doesn't seem connected to any of the crew. Think it means anything? Jinbe was erased in an earlier version of this sketch and put back in, maybe something similar happened with another character?

Bolero ? I don't get what you are sayin
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I don't know, maybe accept that people disagree with you and move on?

There is a difference between a disagreament (you and me for example) and toxicity ( what happened just a few minutes ago).

I get that high end storytelling concepts are hard to understand, (the concept of internal conflict for example took myself multiple year to fully understand , reading sometimes the same book over and over again to grasp the concept).. and I guess that I should be a little more patient and explains those concept more in detail.. but when I'm called a bullshiter in the middle of an explanation.. i tend to lose patience.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Bolero ? I don't get what you are sayin

A bolero is a kind of dance, so perhaps there was an idea for a dancer-type character on the crew, just like the botanist was eventually turned into Robin.

 

[Logiko]

oh, you mean, there is written Bolero in japanese ? I can't see that

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Bolero ? I don't get what you are sayin
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There is a difference between a disagreament (you and me for example) and toxicity ( what happened just a few minutes ago).

I get that high end storytelling concepts are hard to understand, (the concept of internal conflict for example took myself multiple year to fully understand , reading sometimes the same book over and over again to grasp the concept).. and I guess that I should be a little more patient and explains those concept more in detail.. but when I'm called a bullshiter in the middle of an explanation.. i tend to lose patience.

Friend, they call you a troll because you ignore what other write, handwave everything that denies your faith, move goalpoasts, answer only what you want to answer, waltz around your points and then accuse the others of being pidgeons, biased and not smart enough to understand you.

You put extremely biased points as facts (See Vivi less connected to the crew than carrot) and then when they call you on it, you do mental gymnastic and create a false narrative that suits your biased starting opinion. You don't come to discuss, you come to be a prophet. And when called out on it, you provoke and feign ignorance.

Can you see that everybody is discussing politely, listening to each other except when they discuss with you? Do you think it's a coincidence?

Anyway, I wish Gaimon was part of the crew.

 

[Sigran101]

Bolero ? I don't get what you are sayin
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There is a difference between a disagreament (you and me for example) and toxicity ( what happened just a few minutes ago).

I get that high end storytelling concepts are hard to understand, (the concept of internal conflict for example took myself multiple year to fully understand , reading sometimes the same book over and over again to grasp the concept).. and I guess that I should be a little more patient and explains those concept more in detail.. but when I'm called a bullshiter in the middle of an explanation.. i tend to lose patience.

I agree there's a big difference, but you call bad faith arguments on plenty of things that aren't toxic, like a lot of our previous discussions. People aren't struggling to understand the concepts, we just disagree with your interperetation of the story. Like I said before, I have a bachelor's in literary analysis, none of the literary concepts you've talked about have gone over my head. It's just that the connections between the concepts you're talking about and Carrot and Yamato's place in the story are flimsy at best and completely unconvincing.

You are aware, since you have degrees relating to literature, that experts disagree on the symbolism and meaning of many works of fiction right? It doesn't mean one side doesn't understand literature, there's just different points of view that have arguments for and against them and people are allowed to disagree.