General & Others Next Strawhat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet
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Then I don't know what to tell you
I simply can't take you seriously as a self proclaimed analyst if you read Baratie multiple times and concluded that Don Krieg had nothing to do with Sanji. This is the most straightforward battle of values in the entire series.
I simply can't take you seriously as a self proclaimed analyst if you read Baratie multiple times and concluded that Don Krieg had nothing to do with Sanji. This is the most straightforward battle of values in the entire series.
All she wanted was Pedro's death to be avenged, which is what happened. Narratively, she had to lose the fight but it was necessary for her to see Perospero defeated so that she can properly move on.
She never thought about the dawn part of his speech. There's only a panel of her remembering his words of moving on and that's now happened after the defeat. Idk for sure how Oda chooses to handle her learning about the SH's importance with the dawn. It's probably tied with the Mink/Kozuki plotline with them also working together to bring the dawn and now Zunesha being here. My theory is that there'll be a big revelation at the end of Wano of Luffy's status as Joyboy and Carrot would then decide to train so that she's able to help them when her time comes. It's obvious she isn't ready now while the SHs have shown they're ready for the final push.
She never thought about the dawn part of his speech. There's only a panel of her remembering his words of moving on and that's now happened after the defeat. Idk for sure how Oda chooses to handle her learning about the SH's importance with the dawn. It's probably tied with the Mink/Kozuki plotline with them also working together to bring the dawn and now Zunesha being here. My theory is that there'll be a big revelation at the end of Wano of Luffy's status as Joyboy and Carrot would then decide to train so that she's able to help them when her time comes. It's obvious she isn't ready now while the SHs have shown they're ready for the final push.
Fair enough. But as I said before, I provided solid proof for my definition of antagonist, and you have provided no proof of yours. It's your turn to prove yourself if you want me to entertain your definition of antagonist any further. And since you just admitted you weren't thinking when you adressed this argument, I'm going to give you one last chance. This is the fourth and last time I will say it, so pay atrention this time.
Even if your definition of antagonist was right, it's still undeniable that every strawhat has had a significant connection with the arc villain in the arc where they joined. Why is Carrot the exception to that?
Even if your definition of antagonist was right, it's still undeniable that every strawhat has had a significant connection with the arc villain in the arc where they joined. Why is Carrot the exception to that?
its crazy how all Minks who know what the DAWN is always associate it with the dukes and that they need to be alive and here for it
Pedro went out to see and infiltrated an Emporer's territory and main island to bring a poneglyph back, all in the name of the dukes and the dawn, lost a man and an eye, all in the name of the dukes and the dawn
They were ready to sacrifice their sacred and ancient country and race to protect Raizou for the Kouzuki in the name of the DAWN
and while all these minks are dying the ones that ABSOLUTELY have to survive are the Dukes
But somehow a character who had no clue this DAWN prophecy existed until Pedro died and still doesnt even know what it actually is will somehow come to a different conclusion and think its her destiny to see the DAWN and not the Dukes
Thats where my confusion comes from... and the only answer I've gotten on this is because "The Dukes had their time"
Pedro went out to see and infiltrated an Emporer's territory and main island to bring a poneglyph back, all in the name of the dukes and the dawn, lost a man and an eye, all in the name of the dukes and the dawn
They were ready to sacrifice their sacred and ancient country and race to protect Raizou for the Kouzuki in the name of the DAWN
and while all these minks are dying the ones that ABSOLUTELY have to survive are the Dukes
But somehow a character who had no clue this DAWN prophecy existed until Pedro died and still doesnt even know what it actually is will somehow come to a different conclusion and think its her destiny to see the DAWN and not the Dukes
Thats where my confusion comes from... and the only answer I've gotten on this is because "The Dukes had their time"
Careful, I did not say that I did not think, just that my words were not the one I should have used.
Now.. this is not about proof, this is about how we can create the best interaction between a protagonist and an antagonist. I can't "proove" you a storytelling rule here, I would need to make an entire book about that with multiple story analysis, that's nonsens. That's why I suggest for you some ressources like "the anatomy of story" from Truby. you will find enough ressource here to understand my point.
Ok, so here there is one thing wrong and one right, and one thing I need to explain:
(Wrong) - To mix up Joining and being recruted, you have to correct your sentence here by saying : "[...] had a significant connection with the arc villain in the arc where they were recruted".
(Right) - Each strawhat did have a connection with the main arc villain in the arc they were recruted in.
Now, the question is : what was the nature of that connection. Antagonistic (Usopp/Nami/Chopper/Robin) or because of connection through the situation (Sanji/Franky/Brook/Jinbe).. the real thing is .. in our subject.. well.. it doesn't matter at all lol.
Because if we are talking about Carrot here and a potential main villain,.. the answer canonly come from potentiality.. in the future.
So to the question "Why is Carrot an exception to that", I reply : "She is not an exception .. yet.." in fact, a strong main arc villain COULD have an interaction (and therefore a connection) with her in the future. Nothing in the story is opposing that possibility.
In fact,I talked also about Kired for a reason : this is the one villain with NO PERSONAL connection with the strawhat in the arc where he is recruited. Yeah.. Kried is just a passing bad guy. When all the strawhats have a personnal connection to the main villain, Sanji had nothing with Krieg.
And if that happenned with Sanji, it can happen again with Carrot, meaning that we could cross the road of a bad guy during the journey, and this bad guy would become the main villain at a moment when Carrot start having her final character moment and is finally accepted by the strawhats as a true member of the family.
So.. until Carrot depart from the crew, we can't say that she won't have a connection with a big villain later on in the story.
Now.. this is not about proof, this is about how we can create the best interaction between a protagonist and an antagonist. I can't "proove" you a storytelling rule here, I would need to make an entire book about that with multiple story analysis, that's nonsens. That's why I suggest for you some ressources like "the anatomy of story" from Truby. you will find enough ressource here to understand my point.
Ok, so here there is one thing wrong and one right, and one thing I need to explain:
(Wrong) - To mix up Joining and being recruted, you have to correct your sentence here by saying : "[...] had a significant connection with the arc villain in the arc where they were recruted".
(Right) - Each strawhat did have a connection with the main arc villain in the arc they were recruted in.
Now, the question is : what was the nature of that connection. Antagonistic (Usopp/Nami/Chopper/Robin) or because of connection through the situation (Sanji/Franky/Brook/Jinbe).. the real thing is .. in our subject.. well.. it doesn't matter at all lol.
Because if we are talking about Carrot here and a potential main villain,.. the answer canonly come from potentiality.. in the future.
So to the question "Why is Carrot an exception to that", I reply : "She is not an exception .. yet.." in fact, a strong main arc villain COULD have an interaction (and therefore a connection) with her in the future. Nothing in the story is opposing that possibility.
In fact,I talked also about Kired for a reason : this is the one villain with NO PERSONAL connection with the strawhat in the arc where he is recruited. Yeah.. Kried is just a passing bad guy. When all the strawhats have a personnal connection to the main villain, Sanji had nothing with Krieg.
And if that happenned with Sanji, it can happen again with Carrot, meaning that we could cross the road of a bad guy during the journey, and this bad guy would become the main villain at a moment when Carrot start having her final character moment and is finally accepted by the strawhats as a true member of the family.
So.. until Carrot depart from the crew, we can't say that she won't have a connection with a big villain later on in the story.
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its crazy how all Minks who know what the DAWN is always associate it with the dukes and that they need to be alive and here for it
Pedro went out to see and infiltrated an Emporer's territory and main island to bring a poneglyph back, all in the name of the dukes and the dawn, lost a man and an eye, all in the name of the dukes and the dawn
They were ready to sacrifice their sacred and ancient country and race to protect Raizou for the Kouzuki in the name of the DAWN
and while all these minks are dying the ones that ABSOLUTELY have to survive are the Dukes
But somehow a character who had no clue this DAWN prophecy existed until Pedro died and still doesnt even know what it actually is will somehow come to a different conclusion and think its her destiny to see the DAWN and not the Dukes
Thats where my confusion comes from... and the only answer I've gotten on this is because "The Dukes had their time"
Pedro went out to see and infiltrated an Emporer's territory and main island to bring a poneglyph back, all in the name of the dukes and the dawn, lost a man and an eye, all in the name of the dukes and the dawn
They were ready to sacrifice their sacred and ancient country and race to protect Raizou for the Kouzuki in the name of the DAWN
and while all these minks are dying the ones that ABSOLUTELY have to survive are the Dukes
But somehow a character who had no clue this DAWN prophecy existed until Pedro died and still doesnt even know what it actually is will somehow come to a different conclusion and think its her destiny to see the DAWN and not the Dukes
Thats where my confusion comes from... and the only answer I've gotten on this is because "The Dukes had their time"
I do think the Duke had their time, it's logical with the themes of One Piece that the new generation takes the torch of the ancestors.. PEdro saving Carrot and the strawhats.. might be a way for Oda to say : "hey ! The dawn will be really brought by the strawhats .. but at least one mink of the new generation must witness it"
Or I might be completely wrong I don't know.. the "dawn can be everything and nothing..µ
For my part, I think the dawn is simply the end of the exile for the Mink:
Sugestion for @CarrotForNakama :
Create a new blog called CarrotforZouNakama. Matches reality more
Create a new blog called CarrotforZouNakama. Matches reality more
I'm not going to continue to debate you until you stop pretending to be an authority. You literally have no understanding of Anatomy of a Story, and it shows in your arguments here and your comprehension of One Piece in general. I'm sick of you touting this, as if it makes you aware of "high end story telling concepts" that the rest of us aren't. For God's sake, you're not the only one who's read Anatomy of a Story. Your One Piece arguments are terrible because you think you know what you're talking about, but you clearly either misread, or didn't actually read "your bible". You want to debate? Let's first debate Anatomy of a Story, since you're not the only one who has a liturature degree.
"Writers often mistakenly think of the opponent, also known as the antagonist, as the character who looks evil, sounds evil, or does evil things. This way of looking at the opponent will prevent you from ever writting a good story.
Instead you must see the opponent structurally, in terms of his function in the story. A true opponent not only wants to prevent the hero from achieving his desire but is competing with the hero for the same goal.
Notice that this way of defining the opponent organically links this step to your hero’s desire. It is only by competing for the same goal that the hero and the opponent are forced to come into direct conflict and to do so againg and again throughout the story. If you give your hero and opponent two separate goals, each one can get what he wants without coming into direct conflict. And then you have no story at all."
Does Oda follow this? No he doesn't. Look at the arc villains in One Piece, and almost none of them have the same goal as Luffy. They almost always have conflicting goals instead. Helmeppo just wants Zoro dead, Luffy wants to save him. Enel wants to destroy skypeia, Luffy wants to save it. Akainu wants to end the great pirate era by killing Ace, Luffy just wants to protect Ace.
The conclusion? One Piece isn't the literary masterpiece you think it is. It's a fucking shonen manga for little kids filled with fart jokes and gag villains.
You're trying to force the story to adhere to what makes good literature, and making backwards arguments to fit that because you think Oda is a literary genius when he's not. He's just good at writing a fun story aimed at kids. The real answers to our arguments are much simpler if we don't have to force it into Truby's mold like a square block through the circle ring
I can go into tons of different ways that One Piece is nearly the opposite of what Truby would consider a good story, but hopefully this will be enough. Once you accept that your starting premise is flawed, we can have a real debate.
Honestly, anyone who knows anything about literature would laugh you out of the room if you tried to bring One Piece up in the same breath as Anatomy of a Story. Stop pretending, and learn that you are not the most educated person in the room.
"Writers often mistakenly think of the opponent, also known as the antagonist, as the character who looks evil, sounds evil, or does evil things. This way of looking at the opponent will prevent you from ever writting a good story.
Instead you must see the opponent structurally, in terms of his function in the story. A true opponent not only wants to prevent the hero from achieving his desire but is competing with the hero for the same goal.
Notice that this way of defining the opponent organically links this step to your hero’s desire. It is only by competing for the same goal that the hero and the opponent are forced to come into direct conflict and to do so againg and again throughout the story. If you give your hero and opponent two separate goals, each one can get what he wants without coming into direct conflict. And then you have no story at all."
Does Oda follow this? No he doesn't. Look at the arc villains in One Piece, and almost none of them have the same goal as Luffy. They almost always have conflicting goals instead. Helmeppo just wants Zoro dead, Luffy wants to save him. Enel wants to destroy skypeia, Luffy wants to save it. Akainu wants to end the great pirate era by killing Ace, Luffy just wants to protect Ace.
The conclusion? One Piece isn't the literary masterpiece you think it is. It's a fucking shonen manga for little kids filled with fart jokes and gag villains.
You're trying to force the story to adhere to what makes good literature, and making backwards arguments to fit that because you think Oda is a literary genius when he's not. He's just good at writing a fun story aimed at kids. The real answers to our arguments are much simpler if we don't have to force it into Truby's mold like a square block through the circle ring
I can go into tons of different ways that One Piece is nearly the opposite of what Truby would consider a good story, but hopefully this will be enough. Once you accept that your starting premise is flawed, we can have a real debate.
Honestly, anyone who knows anything about literature would laugh you out of the room if you tried to bring One Piece up in the same breath as Anatomy of a Story. Stop pretending, and learn that you are not the most educated person in the room.
Unlike you who make ridiculous comparisons between Carrot and characters who have been on the crew since the fucking Pre timeskip and base your arguments on favoritism, here goes: Carrot was introduced 3 arcs ago, and during those 3 arcs (Zou, WCI, Wano ) she hasn't developed enough to be considered a Nakama. In Zou Momonosuke is more protagonist than her, besides that Zou is a Pre Wano and a Pre WCI that is, Carrot is a secondary in his own intro arc. In WCI (which is Sanji's arc and not Carrot's) its development only really happens at the end and because of Pedro. In Wano she was practically erased that is after the end of the alliance between minks / samurai / pirates Oda has no plans for her in the future unless she returns only in the final war. You spend so much wondering how she's going to join the crew, but never wondered if she should join the crew? what would be the relevance of Carrot to the crew at the current moment? she's not strong enough to fight New World characters (her Sulong mode only served to take down ships), she doesn't have any specialties or anything that stands out (don't you dare compare her to Usopp because he's a character that Oda writes since the beginning of the fucking series, and is much more complete than her). If she's going to be a simple and invisible character in the arcs, then go back to Zou and only return in the Final War(being very generous).:cheers::cheers:.Stop wondering how she's going to join the crew, and start asking if she should join the crew. Start to ask if Straw Hats realy NEED TO HAVE MORE MEMBERS.
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Its really amazing this irrelevant weak character is discussed so much. Its mostly because she has "special" fans. And we all know why they like Carrot... Sigh
There is nothing wrong with liking a character for whatever reason, but stop talking about her for once please! She's not even a side character anymore. Please dear god can we discuss other characters? One Piece has sooo many characters...
There is nothing wrong with liking a character for whatever reason, but stop talking about her for once please! She's not even a side character anymore. Please dear god can we discuss other characters? One Piece has sooo many characters...
After Yamato, I think Law actually has the most going for him for joining the Straw Hats of the currently known characters. He's got a new dream of learning what the Will of D is and we know that the answer is on Laugh Tale, so he's got a dream and a reason to sail with Luffy. He's already got his sad backstory and an arc antagonist that was beaten by Luffy, and he's been a major player in every arc he shows up in. We've had former leaders leave their groups behind in order to join the crew with Usopp, Franky, and Jinbe, so that won't be a problem. The biggest thing holding him back is his portrayal as a rival to Luffy given his battle with Big Mom and his potential redundancy as a doctor. He could be made a Chief of Staff since he's seemed interested in handling the alliances with Luffy, since he asked Luffy to talk to him first before forming alliances with the Minks and the Kozuki.
I would also raise the question as to what people expect the final size of the Straw Hats to be. The most common numbers thrown around are 11 and 13. 11 would match Luffy's early statement of gathering 10 members and would match Blackbeard's 10 Titanic Captains. 13 would follow the trend of recruiting 4 people in each section (East Blue, Paradise, New World) as well as the Japanese name for the crew being Mugiwara no Ichimi where ichimi could potentially be a wordplay on Ichi-mi which is 1-3, or 13. The vast majority of pirate crews are called kaizokudan, so the different wording could be a hint.
I would also raise the question as to what people expect the final size of the Straw Hats to be. The most common numbers thrown around are 11 and 13. 11 would match Luffy's early statement of gathering 10 members and would match Blackbeard's 10 Titanic Captains. 13 would follow the trend of recruiting 4 people in each section (East Blue, Paradise, New World) as well as the Japanese name for the crew being Mugiwara no Ichimi where ichimi could potentially be a wordplay on Ichi-mi which is 1-3, or 13. The vast majority of pirate crews are called kaizokudan, so the different wording could be a hint.
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