Chapter Discussion One Piece - Chapter 971: Sentenced to Boil

[dirtyLarry]

lol Oda tried to make us think this Orochi betrayal was something out of this world bad

In reality Orochi was just making smart plays while Oden kept going full retard...like im not even mad at Orochi here... dude just outworked Oden at every step

Instead of me having deep hate for Orochi i gained some respect for him while Oden lost a ton in my eyes

You can disagree with Oden's decision and call him naive if you like to.
You can also love Orochi as a villain (I do for example).

However, "respecting" someone like Orochi (toxic, cruel, arrogant, cowardish, whiny, dishonest) while disrespecting Oden (honorable, caring, good-hearted, brave, cool, relaxed) really is just bullshit.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

We just see things differently. That's alright. For me he made a big mistake, that's it. It happens. Everybody's got the right to be a sucker once.

You're making it seem like my problem with this is "Oden made a mistake". Ive tried to explain in detail that my issue isn't that simple. I even gave an example of Hiruluk where "mistakes" don't mean the characer is badly written.

Post automatically merged: Feb 14, 2020

Spoiler

Orochi wanting to build factories in kuri is seemingly a breach of the deal, which apparently leads oden to ask about the ship

That's a "seeming" interpretation until the narrator literally says nothing changed in Wano so nothing changed. Including the factories

Post automatically merged: Feb 14, 2020

You can disagree with Oden's decision and call him naive if you like to.
You can also love Orochi as a villain (I do for example).

However, "respecting" someone like Orochi (toxic, cruel, arrogant, cowardish, whiny, dishonest) while disrespecting Oden (honorable, caring, good-hearted, brave, cool, relaxed) really is just bullshit.

Don't people respect Doflamingo for his machinations and diss Rebecca for being a cry baby who tried so hard and failed to beat Doflamingo.

Im not saying I do this. I like both Rebecca and Doflamingo. But the general community does take this sort of stance.

And yes, I much more respect Orochi than Oden.

 

[dirtyLarry]

You're making it seem like my problem with this is "Oden made a mistake". Ive tried to explain in detail that my issue isn't that simple. I even gave an example of Hiruluk where "mistakes" don't mean the characer is badly written.

Post automatically merged: Feb 14, 2020

That's a "seeming" interpretation until the narrator literally says nothing changed in Wano so nothing changed. Including the factories

Post automatically merged: Feb 14, 2020

Don't people respect Doflamingo for his machinations and diss Rebecca for being a cry baby who tried so hard and failed to beat Doflamingo.

Im not saying I do this. I like both Rebecca and Doflamingo. But the general community does take this sort of stance.

And yes, I much more respect Orochi than Oden.

A few things wrong with your post imho.

First of all: Oda has been perfectly consistent in writing Oden as a character. Literally the only reason to get mad is if you don't like Oden's flaw of believing in Orochi's word.

And another thing: What you mean isn't called "respect". It's acknowledging one's skills. In Orochi's case it's his cunning and scheming nature and even that is mostly relying on his helpers. I acknowledge that, too, which is why I love Orochi as a villain (while absolutely hating him at the same moment).
In terms of good qualities and moral, Oden tops him in every regard. He really has many respectable traits, Orochi has none. Zero.

 

[Diamond]

I'll say one thing about this chapter, it changed my view of Orochi. He's still despicable villain, don't get me wrong, but the people of Wano created a monster. They should have just stopped at the grandfather and any of his conspirators and then left the rest of his family alone. They probably wouldn't be in this predicament if they had. Orochi and Kaido make quite the villainous team.

I also really like Shinobu now. She was always kind of a fun character, but she's turning out to be one of the best characters in this flashback so far. Those 20 years must have been the toughest for her.

 

[Garp the Fist]

For god sake HIS BUSINESS INTERESTS ARE THE WRAPONS

His business interest is war. Weapons, soldiers, ships, supplies, they are all part of his plan to start the greatest war the world has ever seen. Wano's his staging ground for that.

you are making up an entirely new motivation for the man just for this argument. Trade works in specifiic ways. He wants weapons, he creates a Newtork of manufacturing and distrubiting weapons and then he gets ships??? What the fuck are you talking about man?

You're really not getting that Oden returning simply fucked up Kaido's plans and he had to change tactic.

It's really pretty simple
-Oden came back. This fucked up Kaido and Orochi's plans
-Orochi and Kaido said to him that they would use the workforce of Wano to produce ships for them, then leave
-Oden went touring around Wano for five years checking on this.
-them breaking their word and planning to build weapons factories again is part of the reason why Oden turned on them

Now, do you think Oden is literally retarded? That on his weekly trips to check up on what was happening in Wano, he somehow didn't notice that Orochi was not in fact building ships, but was just making weapons? That the bells weren't starting to ring for Oden after two years? He didn't stop to think "hold on a minute, where the fuck are the ships those two said they were making?"

Now, I know Oden has shown himself to be naive, but that would be idiocy beyond the pale. The ships must have been getting built. And why wouldn't they be- Kaido can still use them after he gets rid of Oden.

Wano weapons and craftsmen were literally highlighted as far as Dressrosa with shy like Liquor iron ore and all these Meito swords coming from Wano. They are so far the leading weapon manufacturers on the planet.

Yeah, and Kaido did use that originally, and he went back to it afterwards

But Oden showing up changed things. His plan was screwed over.

When Fuckin Water seven exists? That could y that has lasted 1000 years making seesevemhips and cornering the market and has ancient ship builder families and techniques and is so influential in this regard that Both pirates and marines get their ships made there and WG can't even protest this?

Uh, the World Gov did protest it. Quite vigorously. Ended up with Tom being executed.

And at that time Water 7 was a shit hole. It's only after the Puffing Tom and Iceberg uniting the seven shipyards that Water 7 turned into the shipbuilding powerhouse we saw, and that happened years after Oden's death.

And then Kaido after setting up his entire weapons operation to corner an untapped market, he fuckin pivots to ships because of course he somehow has the means to compete in this market without any preparations.

He "pivots" because of the unforeseen arrival of a guy who could end up destroying his entire operation. You seem under the impression that Kaido was in control the entire time. He was not. He openly admitted last chapter that he didn't want a war, because he was at a disadvantage five years ago. So he changed tactic. Bided his time. And that's why's it's only five years after Oden arrived back that he felt it was safe enough to provoke him into battle, which is essentially what the attack on Hyo was always going to end up doing.

 

[dirtyLarry]

Btw ... realized yet what "the hour of the legends" really is after the chapter?

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

A few things wrong with your post imho.

First of all: Oda has been perfectly consistent in writing Oden as a character. Literally the only reason to get mad is if you don't like Oden's flaw of believing in Orochi's word.

And another thing: What you mean isn't called "respect". It's acknowledging one's skills. In Orochi's case it's his cunning and scheming nature and even that is mostly relying on his helpers. I acknowledge that, too, which is why I love Orochi as a villain (while absolutely hating him at the same moment).
In terms of good qualities and moral, Oden tops him in every regard. He really has many respectable traits, Orochi has none. Zero.

I wasn't talking about writing or morals or whatever.

I was talking about who people like more and want to see on screen more. When people diss Rebecca they dont actually care about her character writing or morals, they just don't want to see her around.

And I said I for one much prefer Orochi to Oden because I want to see more ofbhim than of Oden.

Of course the reasons for that is because Orochi is better character BUT that's not what was arguing about when I replied. That's a whole other duscussion

 

[Diamond]

Honestly, I think it's time to give arguing over Oden. The character is just divisive. Personally Oden is a character that didn't work for me, and that's fine. I'm not going to find every character to be likable, and the opposite is true for others. A lot of people here really like Oden and find his actions admirable. So arguing in circles isn't going to achieve much at this rate.

I'm of worried about Momo in the future now though. I mean the people of Wano are pretty awful. I don't think they respect the Kozuki clan in anyway, and were disrespectful of Oden in his hour of torture to the point where poor Shinobu broke down. They also created Orochi the monster. Have these people changed much in these 20 years? Only time will tell I guess.

 

[Garp the Fist]

Honestly, I think it's time to give arguing over Oden. The character is just divisive. Personally Oden is a character that didn't work for me, and that's fine. I'm not going to find every character to be likable, and the opposite is true for others. A lot of people here really like Oden and find his actions admirable. So arguing in circles isn't going to achieve much at this rate.

I'm of worried about Momo in the future now though. I mean the people of Wano are pretty awful. I don't think they respect the Kozuki clan in anyway, and were disrespectful of Oden in his hour of torture to the point where poor Shinobu broke down. They also created Orochi the monster. Have these people changed much in these 20 years? Only time will tell I guess.

I don't think they are awful. Just very broken down and resentful after years of Orochi's rule and their great hope, Oden, seemingly doing nothing to help them. They seem to be changing their minds after Shinobu's speech, and apparently the nation will weep for Oden with his death.

Also keep in mind it's just the people of the Flower Capital we're seeing right now, and they live in Orochi's power base anyway. Years later, we'll see Tama, who has never known a Kozuki, praying for their return. We have all the people with crescent moon tattoos willing to fight for them. And the samurai who tried to avenge Oden thirteen years ago and died to a man.

Sure, the ones who killed Orochi's parents were shits. But that's realistic. Generally speaking, you'll get bad apples on both sides of any conflict.

It's similar to the Fishman situation. The ones who killed the Kurozumi's are probably like Arlong and co. Have certainly been wronged in their life, and its made them like their persecutors. Or just violent opportunists like Hody. And the citizens are like the ones watching the Strawhats, unable to cheer because it was humans doing the fighting, unwilling to give Luffy blood despite them owing him their life. They weren't bad people, not really. But their lives had been rough, and it had its effect.

 

[Finalbeta]

Orochi is the best Wano character. Periodt.

Oda always loves making the wacky characters competent. Perospero, Apoo and Orochi are all Kings !!!

Why do you place him as the best fellow nakama. He was even helped by the power of the Bari Bari. That felt cowardish to me.

 

[Ice devil slayer]

Orochi is the best Wano character. Periodt.

Oda always loves making the wacky characters competent. Perospero, Apoo and Orochi are all Kings !!!

Yeah I agree here
He became one if the best wano characters
A mastermind
Feels like the main villain to me

 

[JerAx]

Btw ... realized yet what "the hour of the legends" really is after the chapter?

Duh its the offscreenes fight, 1/5 oda is a hack

 

[Diamond]

It's similar to the Fishman situation. The ones who killed the Kurozumi's are probably like Arlong and co. Have certainly been wronged in their life, and its made them like their persecutors. Or just violent opportunists like Hody. And the citizens are like the ones watching the Strawhats, unable to cheer because it was humans doing the fighting, unwilling to give Luffy blood despite them owing him their life. They weren't bad people, not really. But their lives had been rough, and it had its effect.

Fishmen Island was about racism though. If Luffy was a fishman they would have saved him. Wano has more of a cultural problem. People either mistrusting, not caring or just being plain awful even to their own royalty. If someone can't conform, they are persecuted. Plus I don't think their lives have always been rough. Oden's father seemed to be a decent ruler, but the people just have this self-destructive mindset overall that lead to their unfortunate circumstances now. I think that's why Oden was determined to get borders opened. He wanted to change their views by introducing new ideas and cultures.

 

[dirtyLarry]

I wasn't talking about writing or morals or whatever.

I was talking about who people like more and want to see on screen more. When people diss Rebecca they dont actually care about her character writing or morals, they just don't want to see her around.

And I said I for one much prefer Orochi to Oden because I want to see more ofbhim than of Oden.

Of course the reasons for that is because Orochi is better character BUT that's not what was arguing about when I replied. That's a whole other duscussion

But why didn't you just say so from the start?
There is nothing wrong with disliking a character or simply liking others better or wanting to see more of them.
I personally don't love some well-written characters, too. I can still acknowledge that their writing has been very good though.

 

[Xione]

So let's see what the "idiot lord" did here:

1. He danced as an apology to the Kurozumi clan, who had a genocide committed against them by the people of Wano, under the reign of Oden's father. Respect.

2. In doing so he was also able to save the lives of various peoples, so things were stable for 5 years where he danced, with harm coming to no citizens. Respect.

3. Orochi kept his promise for 5 years, Oden constantly checking the provinces weekly that the promise was being kept. Hence Oden had no actual reason to believe the promise wouldn't kept, considering they had been keeping it for 5 years.

It wasn't until old man Hyou's wife got killed, that shit went downhill. That's when Orochi broke the promise and that's when Oden took action against him. And he would've effectively killed Kaido, then gotten rid of Orochi, and become the Shogun, without the need of any war and making pointless sacrifices, all with just 10 people.

So what was wrong with his plan? He didn't know there was a traitor among his comrades. It's the classic fall of a hero, who does everything he can for his country & people only to be stabbed in the back by his own.

Now should we hold Oden responsible for the traitor? Idk how you would, seems pretty idiotic to do that.
So does that equate to Oden's plan being stupid? idk how you would say that, when in his plan he would've gotten rid of everything with just 10 people, no bloodshed of citizens of Wano.


Like I said in the spoilers thread, man is proving himself to be a smart & dependable leader.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

I personally don't love some well-written characters, too. I can still acknowledge that their writing has been very good though.

Well yeah now this is the other argument.

I don't think he's even this.

See theres a few things I'd like to point about this. Under "well written" I'd like to split this into being "well characterised" and "well developed"

I'll try and give an example. Oden is "well characterised" as wanting freedom because he says it, first of all, then multiple times his actions show he wants it like trying to leave the country and enjoying his freedom when on adventure and rounding up the kuri bandits because apparently they were "stifling people's freedoms".

On the flip side, Oden is NOT well developed. We don't know WHY he wants freedom so much, we don't know why he decides to be daimyo of Kuri since his original motivation of rounding up bandits doesn't mean he has to be their ruler. He could've taken them to prison in the capital or whatever. We don't know WHY he wants to open the borders of Wano since the reason is a mystery and so the development he went through there is unknown. We don't know why he trusts Kaido or orochi to keep their word.

I think the most development Oden got like clearly on screen is him moving from being thirsty for adventure to him quenching that thirst and finally being content with how much adventuring he had done and returning home. The problem is NONE IT MATTERED. There's no actual plot line that affected by Oden being satisfied in his adventure. The only one that could possibly be it is Toki actually caring about Oden finishing his journey but we don't get closure for this like why Toki wanted that to begin with or her commenting on Oden having finished afterwards. So it again didn't matter.

These are of course loose terms but I hope you get what I mean. Characterisation is what makes a character a character but development adds dimensions. You can actually trace the source of changes in characterisation or reasons for actions or reactions all from very good development. The reasons Oden is doing some thing like trusting Orochi could possibly traced back to him also having trusted Orochi before with the whole Money lending thing BUT where can that now be traced back to? Like why is Oden so quick to trust? There's nothing. Oden is characterised well as a trusting guy since we see it a number of times but is not developed well enough in that regard.

Now I should say, It's not bad to just be characterised well and not overly developed. That happens alot with the strawhats and it's fine. The problem comes in when the story is trying to justify things when they haven't been well established enough as to how or why they happen. Oden is a trusting guy okay. But Orochi just told him he lied to his for years about the money, killed his father, stole his throne, is killing random civilians over a psychopathic grudge. And then Oden still agrees to make a deal with him. Now we've reached a point where simply being characterised as trusting is no longer good enough and you've lost my suspension of disbelief as to why anything is now happening the way it's happening.

Oden would've been a fine character even without development since he was characterised so well IF he wasn't involved in such a complicated story. If this was like story focused on a single straight forward event that directly highlights a specific personality quirk of his then this would've worked. But this is trying to tell his whole life story with twists and turns that Oda hasnt written Oden well enough to be involved in.

 

[sanjikun]

Orochi a mastermind? Are people trolling? He's being used by the Kurozomi elders who were clearly part of Rox' crew along with Kaido.

Kaido and the Kurozomi elders are using this dude as a puppet for their own benefit simply because of who his grandfather was.

This dude literally has Kyoshiro under his nose undermining his every step and calling him a coward. Kyoshiro (a.k.a. Denjiro) will overthrow his entire kingdom now that Orochi left for Onigashima.

 

[Fujishiro]

Shinobu doesnt sound like a traitor at all.
Calamities are so irrelevant lol

Orochi is the one who fooled Oden
Kaido is right to call him a foolish lord.

Kaido : muscles and can take advantage of situations.
Orochi : brain and cant really fight lol

Dynamic wano duo better than Oden & Hyou duo that didn't happen coz Oden was naive to believe he can do it himself.

Orochi is the one who is also playing WG
He knows he has Kaido.

Kaido was savage and chilled this chapter.

Oden despite being naive, the man is carrying 9 huge samurai while being boiled.
His strength dura endurance are something else.

Which hypes Base Kaido AP even more, he KOed such man with nameless strike

Look at the Man blocking Oden easily, a much stronger Oden than the one that clashed evenly with Primebeard

"Kaido planned hostages , kaido need hostages to win or beat Oden "
-Orochi is the one who kidnaps people and give them to Kaido as tributes/gifts.
" base Kaido will be beaten or dominated by Oden"
"
- Enraged Oden blocked easily by Kaido.

And once again, Kaido never feared fighting Oden and Hyou alliance coz he was weaker than Oden but because of his crew being short in numbers and weaked
Same way he didnt wanna fight BM in a war coz he was unprepared.

:holdthisl:

With that said,

I cant wait for dynamism between Kaido BM and Orochi

Thank you! It was obvious that orochi/old hag who had the idea to use that momo shit, and kaido took advantage because why wouldnt he? Its fucking war, not 1vs1 me on rust type shit. I also kept telling people that judging by how fast kaido got up and covered the distance between oden who was rushing towards him and clubbed him in the instant it took for him to turn around to see momo, that it meant that even if the old lady didnt intervene that he may have in fact blocked the attack with his club.
I am sure kaido underestimated oden while in his dragon form and had to pay the price, to me they were pretty even considering the amount of dmg each on inflicted on the other. While in this very instance you see a clash of haki between them 5 years prior to the war. People are so quick to jump to conclusions in this forum.

Post automatically merged: Feb 15, 2020

Man Kaido seemed rly chill back then(a maniac but still very chill) wonder what happened during these 20 years with all that suicide stuff it rly looks like he enjoy watching someone die ,today....idk...he seem different

He wasnt a yonko back then and didnt challenge the others and marines yet as per his intro i believe. Surely something happened then? Maybe after fighting oden and realizing how close the fight was he decided to get stronger so much that he finally got to the peak only to realize no one was worth it anymore?
I have this crackpot theory that it wasnt whitebeard he was going for at marineford but the war itself. A higher chance of fighting worthy oponents and maybe dying? I mean in his intro he says that whitebeard managed to do it and then goes on to say that he will create the biggest war this world has ever seen ( i dont think oda has put that in for laugh).

 

[AriadneWyvern]

If the flashback lasts three more chapters it'll be the first one to take up an entire volume.

There's a pointless fact for everyone

Has it been that long?!

 

[Fujishiro]

Pretty good chapter.
Oda seems to be going after another legendary panel that would join WB's death panel and Zoro's nothing happened and the way it is developing he might succeed. Oden is pretty badass to withstand the torture for an entire hour, no doubt that he will succeed.

Interesting to see that he fought Kaido in the flashback when he attacked Orochi and they were pretty much equal it seems.
It was foolish to believe Orochi's and Kaido's words back then but he was in a fail-fail situation however you take it. He tried fighting Orochi, it didnt work out. He tried fighting Kaido, it didnt work out. In the war, he could have been successful if there was no Momo double but the story deems the fail necessary.

All we have to see is how Oden went out, what changed in the end that caused the entire country to weep after him.
Orochi is bad guy however you slice it but there is more to it than just being evil, he is getting revenge for what happened to him because of his grandfather's actions. I am interested if there are other surviving members of the Kurozumi family. :unsure:

This reinforces the idea that oden did indeed hit kaido off guard when he jumped him in dragon form, and kaido was clearly underestimating him. Maybe since he never got wounder in that form and the fact that they seemed pretty evenly matched when they first fought. Then when oden was going to attack him again, notice how he says: never come back to wano again. Thats not something you tell to someone youre about to kill. Kaido of course took advantage of the fact that oden got distracted by momo but i kept saying whose to say he wasnt gonna block that attack then. Altho with the fact that he got heavily wounded the fight might have been bad for him in the long run. And him choosing to end it right there is sound. It is war after all.