General & Others Oden was a shit leader and deserved to die

And he did it once a week for 5years(with a year having roughly 52weeks)



So that means they had more than 52000hostages
No one note 52,000 people have been dissapeared before hand?

:sus:

As I said he was not allowed to go to prison,port ,factories, etc....places where ppl could die/being exported.
Way fooled by the Orochi...
:catcry:

Still his intentions were legit no doubt.
:catpole:
 
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Them: “Oden is a SHIT leader, terrible character, because reasons! Treason! Incompetent!”

Story: Every time Oden danced, he saved 100 lives. If Oden danced once a week, every week for a year, he saves. 5,200 lives. If he did so for five years straight, he saved 26,000 lives.

“TerRIbLE lEAdEr!”
It makes Oden a bit more reasonable, but it still doesn't change the facts.

At the very least he should have told someone what was going on. But nope, the man didn't tell his most trusted subordinates who would literally die for him what the plan was, he didn't even tell his wife.

And I still cannot understand his rationale. Why did he think that Orochi would stop just because he said he would. Orochi was obviously a madman and Kaido was a pirate. They were extremely untrustworthy.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
It makes Oden a bit more reasonable, but it still doesn't change the facts.

At the very least he should have told someone what was going on. But nope, the man didn't tell his most trusted subordinates who would literally die for him what the plan was, he didn't even tell his wife.

And I still cannot understand his rationale. Why did he think that Orochi would stop just because he said he would. Orochi was obviously a madman and Kaido was a pirate. They were extremely untrustworthy.
Cause of the fact that orochi had a point in wano citizens being bastards and chasing down and killing every kurozumi even the innocent ones or kids.
He probably let all past transgressions lie and gave him one chance.
 
and if we just look at what happened, I don't see how you can say that Oden was a good leader when his actions ultimately lead to Kaido securing his hold on wano. A thing that most likely lead to far more than a couple thousand deaths.

Wano was undergoing a mass famine. Things like that are known to kill millions. Lets not forget the fact that Orochi has a literal gulag in Udon, and that thousands more were enslaved after Oden's death.

Couldn't Oden have figured out some way to save the hostages? In any case, there's a reason why its a bad idea to bargain with terrorists
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Cause of the fact that orochi had a point in wano citizens being bastards and chasing down and killing every kurozumi even the innocent ones or kids.
He probably let all past transgressions lie and gave him one chance.
couldn't he have found some way to compensate Orochi without giving him control over wano?


couldn't he have just given Orochi a ton of money and wealth?
 


Doesn't this mean that Oden was indeed ensuring that the citizens of Wano were living (relatively) in peace, much more as compared before Oden's arrival, as a part of the deal? On top of having 100 hostages freed per dance which he would also check upon. With the fact that otherwise the causalities would be tremendous and Oden might lose the war anyways, and with his desire to solve this problem in a pacifist way.

So morally, Oden did the right thing according to Oda and (as we will see in the next chapter) according to the citizens of Wano themselves. So if the citizens of Wano themselves will appreciate what Oden has done, how won't the fandom itself appreciate it?

:cheers:
 
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couldn't he have found some way to compensate Orochi without giving him control over wano?


couldn't he have just given Orochi a ton of money and wealth?
he made clear this was his ravage on all the people of wano for persecuting him and his family even if he was just a kid and his grandpa was already dead for a long time.

He had money he had the power oden could not offer him anything, but by humiliating himself he tried to get orochi's hate just on him since he was a the son of the ruling shogun and the reason his grandpa plan has failed.

He danced and saved thousands of lifes if he attacked in that moment with all the retainers there was no certitude he would win and by died at the beginning he would not have saved 52 thousand people and in the process also his family. By doing this he had the chance of them going away in five years.
 
It makes Oden a bit more reasonable, but it still doesn't change the facts.

At the very least he should have told someone what was going on. But nope, the man didn't tell his most trusted subordinates who would literally die for him what the plan was, he didn't even tell his wife.

And I still cannot understand his rationale. Why did he think that Orochi would stop just because he said he would. Orochi was obviously a madman and Kaido was a pirate. They were extremely untrustworthy.
Because he knew that he couldn’t tell them? The entire purpose of it, from Orochi’s side, as Shonobu said, was for him to trade his standing for the lives of the people of Wano. Shinobu has zero relevance to Oden at the time of this chapter. She only just personally met him a few chapters ago. And yet, at the very first moment somebody shit on him in front of her, she snapped and ran her mouth, saying that he traded his dignity for their lives. What do you think would have happened had the people around him for years, that had traveled the world with him, would have done the first time they heard him getting shit on? And what would have the people thought about him after they learned the truth? Again, it was about him losing standing. Telling people was antithetical to him saving lies.

Yes, he did. Because he is a good person, and Wano people, good or evil, had typically displayed a sense of honor in their endeavors. He dealt based on what he knew.
and if we just look at what happened, I don't see how you can say that Oden was a good leader when his actions ultimately lead to Kaido securing his hold on wano. A thing that most likely lead to far more than a couple thousand deaths.

Wano was undergoing a mass famine. Things like that are known to kill millions. Lets not forget the fact that Orochi has a literal gulag in Udon, and that thousands more were enslaved after Oden's death.

Couldn't Oden have figured out some way to save the hostages? In any case, there's a reason why its a bad idea to bargain with terrorists
His actions directly saved the lives of at least 26,000 people. His actions indirectly saved the lives of many more for a period of five years, as there was zero guarantee that he could beat Kaido, and that his underlings could beat Kaido’s forces. Kaido was probably stronger, and probably would have won regardless. The risk of losing Wano then was unacceptable, because many more lives could have been lost at an earlier period. Knowing that, and that a wrong action could make things monumentally worse, Oden tried to save as many lives as he could. He had a difficult choice, and chose wisely.

You were premature in trashing him.
 

Jew D. Boy

I Can Go Lower


Doesn't this mean that Oden was indeed ensuring that the citizens of Wano were living (relatively) in peace, much more as compared before Oden's arrival, as a part of the deal? On top of having 100 hostages freed per dance which he would also check upon. With the fact that otherwise the causalities would be tremendous and Oden might lose the war anyways, and with his desire to solve this problem in a pacifist way.

So morally, Oden did the right thing according to Oda and (as we will see in the next chapter) according to the citizens of Wano themselves. So if the citizens of Wano themselves will appreciate what Oden has done, how won't the fandom itself appreciate it?

:cheers:
Because we aren’t cartoon characters drawn by the man who wants us to believe in Oden, but actual human beings with the capacity for critical thinking and analyzation?? Because we know more about Oden’s experience outside of Wano and the opportunities he missed both during and after his absence?? Because the onus is on Oda to effectively make Oden sympathetic in light of the evidence against him, and for a sizable portion of his fan base, what we’ve seen so far doesn’t exactly do that??
 

Uncle Van

Taxes Are a Sickness
Oden's character is pretty basic and straight forward, that being a leader who bares everything alone, which is presented as a flaw. We see this contrast with Luffy in Udon in comparison to Oden and the Mountain Boar. Luffy would embrace the pain of others and rally them to fight together....Oden would instead bare all the anger and pain alone and go straight for the source of the problem.

With Orochi and Kaido, Oden once again took on all of the pressure alone. He told no one which eventually came back to bite him as Hyougoro rebelled, not knowing why Oden was complacent. If Oden informed Hyou of the circumstances, surely Hyou would have went along with it given his loyalty.

That however is where the problem lies...for 5 years Oden didnt plan on Kaido or Orochi going back on their word? For 5 years, even though everyone was growing more n' more frustrated and aching for rebellion, Oden said nothing? Even with the execution scene, Oden STILL asks Kaido, the guy who previously went back on his word big time, to keep his word and not harm the scabbards(Oden could have a plan but right now we know nothing)...it just makes Oden seem unbelievably gullible and incompetent.
 
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I agree with both sides to a certain extent.

Oden sacrificing himself is portrayed as noble and so are the other times people have done it in the series (Sanji in WCI, Nami in Arlong Park, Robin, and even Zoro at the end of Thriller Bark)

However this could have been avoided way before the deal was made


This is the panel where I think he should have acted. Roger and his boys were already there and he left because Toki told him too? Roger, Oden, and the crew wipes Kaido and Orochi within a day and stil have time to go to Raftel. Oden should have implored for Roger's help at this moment regardless of how Toki felt
 

Rosella.Fiamingo

Peerless In History
Oden is trash.

'Saved' a bunch of hostages (who may have been enslaved, tortured or killed directly or indirectly by Orochi) only to thrust the entire country into a world of pain for 25 years during which THOUSANDS of innocent people would've died from poisoned food, overwork or the whims of Kaido's henchmen. He thought that he would really lose a war with Kaido when the samurai have been repeatedly hyped as this intimidating military force that made even Akainu hesitate? Tf?

Seriously, believing the sob story of some dude who probably assassinated Sukiyaki and deceived the Daimyos is beyond retarded. Why the fuck would Kaido and Orochi leave Wano? They have an unlimited amount of slaves, their personal skank that dances naked for money and a population too stupid or complacent to rebel. Why, why, WHY would Oden think they would leave?

The stupidity is mind-boggling.
Akainu is trash what does "even Akainu" mean? He's bitch made.
 

Bogard

You can't win
Oden's character is pretty basic and straight forward, that being a leader who bares everything alone, which is presented as a flaw. We see this contrast with Luffy in Udon in comparison to Oden and the Mountain Boar. Luffy would embrace the pain of others and rally them to fight together....Oden would instead bare all the anger and pain alone and go straight for the source of the problem.
This is actually a pretty good contrast. I think @Shura pointed this out before as well. It'd probably be used by Oda to show how Luffy will succeed in something Oden failed at. Trusting his comrades to fight alongside him instead of taking the entire burden for him
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
I dont think there are people making PMs plotting to trick people into getting thread or forum banned
:smithnie:

Not at that level yet I think
What ?
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This is actually a pretty good contrast. I think @Shura pointed this out before as well. It'd probably be used by Oda to show how Luffy will succeed in something Oden failed at. Trusting his comrades to fight alongside him instead of taking the entire burden for him
Thats the whole point of why luffy will succeed in changing the world and why hes got as far as he has. As mihawk pointed out.
His uncanny ability to make an ally out of anyone is slowly but surely stacking up.
 
Again, it's the inaction of Oden or the weird trust he places in two people who warrant zero trust that's the issue. Oden shouldn't be blindly expecting someone who spent their life lying, stealing, and cheating to the position of Shogun to honor their deal. I'm fine with Oden miscalculating, or Oden being naive and believing the best of people—but this is a new level of stupidity Oda forced on Oden. No functioning person should decide to move forward with no follow up or alternative action.

Flaws are fine. Flaws are what Oden needed. But this wasn't realistic in the least. No one is this dumb, naive or what have you. Poor writing is poor writing, can't just ignore it because it's coming from One Piece.
Only problem that this time it was picture perfect writing and totally in character with Oden (and I've called out Oda before, too, especially during WCI's second part).

The official translation once again clears a lot of stuff up. Shinobu confirms in it, that Wano was totally in peace for those 5 years and Oden checked on it every week.

Literally everything went according to Oden's plan. No citizens were kidnapped/killed anymore and people went on to live their normal lifes. It was only right before the 5 years were over, that Orochi broke the deal and killed innocents.

That's when Oden actually took action immediately and attacked, nearly winning in the process (basically only losing because of a dirty trick again).
 
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