Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler
- Thread starter Guan Yu
- Start date
- Tags cruzeiro > your fav team kaneki & mutin kouen > all ousen ousen>cruzeiro riboku>ousen shin > ouhon wingdom
I agree that the general weight is important in the show and the inherited will too.
But the Houken fight really has some problems in it.
The fight in itself : Shin took so much hit was thrown left and right and managed to fight even without being conscious : this is a little bit bullshit.
I don't mind if he wins by will but this was done to an extent that bothered me. Shin was already fighting for days and was already injured.
This was too much.
My second problem was the moment of the fight : Houken manage to fight with Ouki and when he gave it all he was nearly equal to Ouki. Ouki managed to win because of his will and his weight. Houken managed to win against Hyou even if Hyou hurt him Houken was never really in the loosing end and Hyou had weight and was mad strong too.
I don't think Shin was at that level already and an half conscious injured Shin to do that I don't really understand.
Houken was also one of the main enemy of Shin since the beginning of the story. I think it was bit too early to fight and defeat Houken. Shin has much room to grow physically skills weight etc. Houken was for me an endgame character.
And for Houken himself I find it a bit sad that Houken ended like that.
It would have been more interesting for Houken to understand the battlefield and maybe changed his view and his bushido.
The fact also that we were introduced to Houken philosophy and people (the guys who want to ge beyond humanity) and just after that Houken was defeated. It was too quick.
I wanted Houken to be endgame to understand a bit what he lacked and to have a great fight with Prime Shin.
But the Houken fight really has some problems in it.
The fight in itself : Shin took so much hit was thrown left and right and managed to fight even without being conscious : this is a little bit bullshit.
I don't mind if he wins by will but this was done to an extent that bothered me. Shin was already fighting for days and was already injured.
This was too much.
My second problem was the moment of the fight : Houken manage to fight with Ouki and when he gave it all he was nearly equal to Ouki. Ouki managed to win because of his will and his weight. Houken managed to win against Hyou even if Hyou hurt him Houken was never really in the loosing end and Hyou had weight and was mad strong too.
I don't think Shin was at that level already and an half conscious injured Shin to do that I don't really understand.
Houken was also one of the main enemy of Shin since the beginning of the story. I think it was bit too early to fight and defeat Houken. Shin has much room to grow physically skills weight etc. Houken was for me an endgame character.
And for Houken himself I find it a bit sad that Houken ended like that.
It would have been more interesting for Houken to understand the battlefield and maybe changed his view and his bushido.
The fact also that we were introduced to Houken philosophy and people (the guys who want to ge beyond humanity) and just after that Houken was defeated. It was too quick.
I wanted Houken to be endgame to understand a bit what he lacked and to have a great fight with Prime Shin.
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Summary by Jeeswag from Kingdom Community
Gyou:
The citizens overpowered the soldiers and opened up the gates to Gyou to escape. The Kanki army commanders were planning on waiting for the flow to slow down to make their way in while the Riboku army was thinking of just fending off the Kanki army right at the gate so they can close it again after the citizens ran out. But, the citizens broke the mechanism to close the gate in an effort to get out so the Gyou soldiers sent a message asking for time to fix it. However, the Zenou clan went right in looking for something to eat without giving anyone a chance to go with their plan. Raido's pissed because Zenou left his army to fend for themselves but he says there's no need for Zenou anymore.
Inside Gyou:
While the Kanki army begins to loot Gyou the Riboku army can't get past the Raido unit and can only watch demoralised and unable to do anything. The nobles are planning to escape but the lord of Gyou is nowhere to found. The child sees him up on top of the tower and as he says to himself that he couldn't protect Gyou and jumps off.
Outside Gyou:
Riboku's army gets with the refugees and retreats from Gyou together. The Ousen army arrives to see Kanki's army inside Gyou and Ousen meets with Kanki. Kanki says Ousen took longer than he expected to which Ousen replies saying it wasn't an easy battle. Ousen tells his army to head in too and Kanki says it's probably cleared out by now but the thing they need most is nowhere to be found. Ousen says it's probably one of the reasons why Riboku retreated. The HSU is celebrating but Ouhon and Mouten says it's not time for that due to the food problem. Gyou has no food so that's why the citizens ran out in the first place. Ten mentions that Ousen should've been the first one to know about that issue and the rest wants to believe he has a way but they can't think of a solution to this problem.
Narration box at the end:
However, Ousen solved this major problem in a very surprising way.
No break next week!
Gyou:
The citizens overpowered the soldiers and opened up the gates to Gyou to escape. The Kanki army commanders were planning on waiting for the flow to slow down to make their way in while the Riboku army was thinking of just fending off the Kanki army right at the gate so they can close it again after the citizens ran out. But, the citizens broke the mechanism to close the gate in an effort to get out so the Gyou soldiers sent a message asking for time to fix it. However, the Zenou clan went right in looking for something to eat without giving anyone a chance to go with their plan. Raido's pissed because Zenou left his army to fend for themselves but he says there's no need for Zenou anymore.
Inside Gyou:
While the Kanki army begins to loot Gyou the Riboku army can't get past the Raido unit and can only watch demoralised and unable to do anything. The nobles are planning to escape but the lord of Gyou is nowhere to found. The child sees him up on top of the tower and as he says to himself that he couldn't protect Gyou and jumps off.
Outside Gyou:
Riboku's army gets with the refugees and retreats from Gyou together. The Ousen army arrives to see Kanki's army inside Gyou and Ousen meets with Kanki. Kanki says Ousen took longer than he expected to which Ousen replies saying it wasn't an easy battle. Ousen tells his army to head in too and Kanki says it's probably cleared out by now but the thing they need most is nowhere to be found. Ousen says it's probably one of the reasons why Riboku retreated. The HSU is celebrating but Ouhon and Mouten says it's not time for that due to the food problem. Gyou has no food so that's why the citizens ran out in the first place. Ten mentions that Ousen should've been the first one to know about that issue and the rest wants to believe he has a way but they can't think of a solution to this problem.
Narration box at the end:
However, Ousen solved this major problem in a very surprising way.
No break next week!
The tragedy of Earl Chouki. 
This should be interesting. :kizabat:
Sounds about right. I seem to recall that Shunsuiji is holed up in Retsubi with a large army (I think it was about 200,000 soldiers though I could be remembering wrong). Riboku is probably relying on the Qin Army having no food whatsoever by now and then surrounding Gyou, though it sounds like Ousen has come up with a solution faster than Riboku could mobilise another army.
This should be interesting. :kizabat:
Sounds about right. I seem to recall that Shunsuiji is holed up in Retsubi with a large army (I think it was about 200,000 soldiers though I could be remembering wrong). Riboku is probably relying on the Qin Army having no food whatsoever by now and then surrounding Gyou, though it sounds like Ousen has come up with a solution faster than Riboku could mobilise another army.
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I also read about the possibility of em being related due to their names.
But i dont think that will matter much.
Shin repeating many times he would be the one to beat Riboku, already prevails everything else.
Not only that Riboku also more or less confirmed that when in El Sei court, he openly declared none of Qin Generals were capable of Killin him, if i am not wrong he named Ou sen, Kanki, Mou bu and Tou infront of Sei and Shou hei kun.
Yes it could also be simple overconfidence from Riboku, bt i think it's hint from Hara that none of current General are capable of killing Riboku but the new ones.
Since Riboku statement doesn't apply to young Prodigies of Qin, and they so far in the story have surpassed both Riboku and everyone else expectations. Hence El Sei showed his trust in Shin, Ou hon n Mou ten at the starting of this arc.
And out of three, given Shin has most connection with Riboku, and has shown his desire of wanting to kill him since Ouki death and also being the MC, he has most claim to Kill Riboku.
But it is also hard or rather impossible to see him besting Riboku at this stage of story, that's where i think 3 of em come in.
These three have history of working together in the past using collective strategy and that's how i think they will be able to best Riboku, not alone but together and then Shin will get his opportunity to Take Riboku 1 vs 1 on.
But i dont think that will matter much.
Shin repeating many times he would be the one to beat Riboku, already prevails everything else.
Not only that Riboku also more or less confirmed that when in El Sei court, he openly declared none of Qin Generals were capable of Killin him, if i am not wrong he named Ou sen, Kanki, Mou bu and Tou infront of Sei and Shou hei kun.
Yes it could also be simple overconfidence from Riboku, bt i think it's hint from Hara that none of current General are capable of killing Riboku but the new ones.
Since Riboku statement doesn't apply to young Prodigies of Qin, and they so far in the story have surpassed both Riboku and everyone else expectations. Hence El Sei showed his trust in Shin, Ou hon n Mou ten at the starting of this arc.
And out of three, given Shin has most connection with Riboku, and has shown his desire of wanting to kill him since Ouki death and also being the MC, he has most claim to Kill Riboku.
But it is also hard or rather impossible to see him besting Riboku at this stage of story, that's where i think 3 of em come in.
These three have history of working together in the past using collective strategy and that's how i think they will be able to best Riboku, not alone but together and then Shin will get his opportunity to Take Riboku 1 vs 1 on.
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Really? Friends?
Sei Kyou was at best, an ally of convenience to Shin, Rinko was an enemy that respected Shin but an enemy nonetheless and Mangoku hated Shin and straight up threatened to haunt him if he did not keep his promise.
Or are we taking “friendship power” to mean any form of inner strength that is sourced from a character’s relationship to any other character, past or present? Does that mean characters who are motivated by the loss of their loved ones have “friendship power”?
Do characters that are motivated by revenge such as Guts, Goblin Slayer, The Punisher etc. now have “friendship power”? Lol.
It does. If the concept was first introduced in the Shin vs Houken dual then we would all be calling it a complete arse pull. Lol.
I wholeheartedly disagree. People will always push themselves to their limit in order to protect what and (in the case of the concept we are now discussing) who they hold most dear.
It is not an inherently bad concept. It is a concept that can be difficult to execute without coming off as cheesy but if executed correctly it is a simple but heartwarming concept that strikes a relatable cord with a basic element of our human nature, the desire to protect our own.
Which brings us to a different but related point.
As @Admiral Lee Hung once eloquently said...
In a manga about humanity, could Hara actually avoid the concept of people drawing strength from their connections and relationships to others? Of our desire to protect those or the memory of those (as is the case of inherited will) who are dear to us, no matter the cost? Of one of the most basic traits that makes humanity ultimately, human?
The answer in my opinion, is no. For Hara to avoid such a basic concept that is inherently part of human nature in a manga about humanity would be akin to attempting to write a love story without romance.
Ultimately, Hara chose the spiritual route of “friendship power”/motivation through character relationships/whatever you perceive it as, through the concept of Inherited Will.
Arguing that a concept within a series is inherently bad merely because other series have explored the concept is like arguing that Burger King’s burgers are inherently bad because MacDonald’s, Supermac’s, KFC and Eddie Rocket’s also serve burgers, regardless of whatever seasoning, condiments, sauces or side dishes each outlet serves with their respective burgers.
It is not so much the basic concept within a story that matters but the execution of said concept.
No, they are absolutely not.
Shin has fought legendary Great Generals since the Wei Fire Dragon Arc. He was able to keep up with Gaimou about 2/3 arcs ago, matched Gyou’un (an individual that was credited as being “The Martial Might of Zhao” during a time when beasts like Renpa and Kaishibou were active at the same time) blow for blow and he has slayed Great Heaven Houken.
Current Shin has been above Mougou and Choutou for whole arcs now, would arguably defeat Duke Hyou during this arc and would give both Ouki and Moubu an extreme diff fight.
Current Shin i.e. the Shin that fought Houken, in terms of physical prowess, is without doubt above ordinary Great Generals (e.g. Mougou and Choutou) and is on par with Legendary Great Generals (e.g. Zhao Three, Qin Six, Wei Seven etc.).
Shin also certainly has the Weight of a General by Ouki’s definition of it.
It really does not matter when Shin literally no longer has those wounds, does it?
Riddle me this.
If Shin with life threatening wounds could overpower Houken, why can’t Shin who now no longer has those wounds, overpower literal fodder that he is attacking from behind?
Firstly, at no point is Shin portrayed as being “fresh”. Still does not change the fact he should be able to easily overpower literal fodder even in his current condition (i.e. exhausted, no wounds).
Secondly, unless Kyoukai has accidentally dabbled into the territory of necromancy and resurrected Shin as a zombie then I do not see how this “no breathing” malarkey affects anything considering that Shin will have been breathing sweet oxygen since his resurrection, no?
Seriously, what even is this argument? Lol.
Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.
Or are we taking “friendship power” to mean any form of inner strength that is sourced from a character’s relationship to any other character, past or present? Does that mean characters who are motivated by the loss of their loved ones have “friendship power”?
Do characters that are motivated by revenge such as Guts, Goblin Slayer, The Punisher etc. now have “friendship power”? Lol.
It does. If the concept was first introduced in the Shin vs Houken dual then we would all be calling it a complete arse pull. Lol.
I wholeheartedly disagree. People will always push themselves to their limit in order to protect what and (in the case of the concept we are now discussing) who they hold most dear.
It is not an inherently bad concept. It is a concept that can be difficult to execute without coming off as cheesy but if executed correctly it is a simple but heartwarming concept that strikes a relatable cord with a basic element of our human nature, the desire to protect our own.
Which brings us to a different but related point.
As @Admiral Lee Hung once eloquently said...
In a manga about humanity, could Hara actually avoid the concept of people drawing strength from their connections and relationships to others? Of our desire to protect those or the memory of those (as is the case of inherited will) who are dear to us, no matter the cost? Of one of the most basic traits that makes humanity ultimately, human?
The answer in my opinion, is no. For Hara to avoid such a basic concept that is inherently part of human nature in a manga about humanity would be akin to attempting to write a love story without romance.
Ultimately, Hara chose the spiritual route of “friendship power”/motivation through character relationships/whatever you perceive it as, through the concept of Inherited Will.
Arguing that a concept within a series is inherently bad merely because other series have explored the concept is like arguing that Burger King’s burgers are inherently bad because MacDonald’s, Supermac’s, KFC and Eddie Rocket’s also serve burgers, regardless of whatever seasoning, condiments, sauces or side dishes each outlet serves with their respective burgers.
It is not so much the basic concept within a story that matters but the execution of said concept.
No, they are absolutely not.
Shin has fought legendary Great Generals since the Wei Fire Dragon Arc. He was able to keep up with Gaimou about 2/3 arcs ago, matched Gyou’un (an individual that was credited as being “The Martial Might of Zhao” during a time when beasts like Renpa and Kaishibou were active at the same time) blow for blow and he has slayed Great Heaven Houken.
Current Shin has been above Mougou and Choutou for whole arcs now, would arguably defeat Duke Hyou during this arc and would give both Ouki and Moubu an extreme diff fight.
Current Shin i.e. the Shin that fought Houken, in terms of physical prowess, is without doubt above ordinary Great Generals (e.g. Mougou and Choutou) and is on par with Legendary Great Generals (e.g. Zhao Three, Qin Six, Wei Seven etc.).
Shin also certainly has the Weight of a General by Ouki’s definition of it.
It really does not matter when Shin literally no longer has those wounds, does it?
Riddle me this.
If Shin with life threatening wounds could overpower Houken, why can’t Shin who now no longer has those wounds, overpower literal fodder that he is attacking from behind?
Firstly, at no point is Shin portrayed as being “fresh”. Still does not change the fact he should be able to easily overpower literal fodder even in his current condition (i.e. exhausted, no wounds).
Secondly, unless Kyoukai has accidentally dabbled into the territory of necromancy and resurrected Shin as a zombie then I do not see how this “no breathing” malarkey affects anything considering that Shin will have been breathing sweet oxygen since his resurrection, no?
Seriously, what even is this argument? Lol.
Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.
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I want you guys to check this video out, and keep an open mind while watching it.
I recently stumbled upon this YouTuber “live via satellite”, and his Kingdom content is pretty high quality.
But the reason I want you guys to watch this video, is because LVS does a fantastic job at actually talking about every instance in Kingdom where Hara explores spiritualism and lays the ground work for recent events (Shin’s “death” lol). LVS cites and talks about every past instance of spiritualism in Kingdom and how Hara has been building towards a bigger spiritual aspect to the manga.
It’s like I said before, Kingdom is NOT specifically a manga about War or Politics, it’s a manga that is at its core about humanity with spiritualism being an aspect of humanity (keep in mind, I myself am not a spiritual or religious person, but I can still respect this aspect of the story that Hara is establishing.)
I recently stumbled upon this YouTuber “live via satellite”, and his Kingdom content is pretty high quality.
But the reason I want you guys to watch this video, is because LVS does a fantastic job at actually talking about every instance in Kingdom where Hara explores spiritualism and lays the ground work for recent events (Shin’s “death” lol). LVS cites and talks about every past instance of spiritualism in Kingdom and how Hara has been building towards a bigger spiritual aspect to the manga.
It’s like I said before, Kingdom is NOT specifically a manga about War or Politics, it’s a manga that is at its core about humanity with spiritualism being an aspect of humanity (keep in mind, I myself am not a spiritual or religious person, but I can still respect this aspect of the story that Hara is establishing.)
It was really a good video and this guy is quite good for reviewing Kingdom.
I didn't really complain about the mystical part and the land of the dead part.
Yes in Kingdom there are some mystic aspects since the beginning. I am generally not a huge fan in itself of that type of thing, I prefer realistic things, especially in a universe like Kingdom (blood, death, war etc). It is like in GOT : the universe was quite "realistic" and yet Snow was brought back from the dead, in the universe there was magic so it is not completely bullshit in universe.
The moments with the dead commanders who helped KyouKai was good too and hit right in the feelings. And I really like that Kyou Kai didn't come back unscathed from the trip, she is now weaker than before.
But I can acept this thing if it is the last time they do it. If not the deaths, the wars, and danger won't have any meaning anymore.
It doesn't change the fact that I think Houken Vs Shin fight was not really good and too much.
I think people also didn't like the mystical aspect and said it an asspul because it came just after Houken fight and people were already a bit mad, so they might have thought that Hara went too far again.
I didn't really complain about the mystical part and the land of the dead part.
Yes in Kingdom there are some mystic aspects since the beginning. I am generally not a huge fan in itself of that type of thing, I prefer realistic things, especially in a universe like Kingdom (blood, death, war etc). It is like in GOT : the universe was quite "realistic" and yet Snow was brought back from the dead, in the universe there was magic so it is not completely bullshit in universe.
The moments with the dead commanders who helped KyouKai was good too and hit right in the feelings. And I really like that Kyou Kai didn't come back unscathed from the trip, she is now weaker than before.
But I can acept this thing if it is the last time they do it. If not the deaths, the wars, and danger won't have any meaning anymore.
It doesn't change the fact that I think Houken Vs Shin fight was not really good and too much.
I think people also didn't like the mystical aspect and said it an asspul because it came just after Houken fight and people were already a bit mad, so they might have thought that Hara went too far again.
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Have any of you read Romance of Three Kingdoms? It is a novel based on history of ancient China taking place during 200 AD just like Kingdom. Novel is 70% fact and 30% fiction (according to some sources). It took place after 6 kingdoms power struggle (power struggle between Qin and other kingdoms which is the main story in Kingdom manga).
I think there are some mystic part in that novel. Like Zuo Ci.
Here is the description of Zuo Ci in the novel from wikipedia.
Zuo Ci was a Taoist known under the name of Master Black Horn (烏角先生). The novel describes Zuo Ci's fictional attainment of Taoist powers and his subsequent mission to persuade Cao Cao to follow Taoism.
Zuo Ci wielded amazing Taoist power and was described as a psychic. He studied on Mount Emei in Sichuan, where he found The Book of Concealing Method (遁甲天書), from which he learned to "ascend to the clouds astride the wind, to sail up into the great void itself;" and how "...to pass through mountains and penetrate rocks; ...to float light as vapor, over the seas, to become invisible at will or change his shape, to fling swords and project daggers so as to decapitate a man from a distance."
So I think it's not far fetched that mystic power exists in Kingdom. And this is also manga so some things might get exaggerated
I think there are some mystic part in that novel. Like Zuo Ci.
Here is the description of Zuo Ci in the novel from wikipedia.
Zuo Ci was a Taoist known under the name of Master Black Horn (烏角先生). The novel describes Zuo Ci's fictional attainment of Taoist powers and his subsequent mission to persuade Cao Cao to follow Taoism.
Zuo Ci wielded amazing Taoist power and was described as a psychic. He studied on Mount Emei in Sichuan, where he found The Book of Concealing Method (遁甲天書), from which he learned to "ascend to the clouds astride the wind, to sail up into the great void itself;" and how "...to pass through mountains and penetrate rocks; ...to float light as vapor, over the seas, to become invisible at will or change his shape, to fling swords and project daggers so as to decapitate a man from a distance."
So I think it's not far fetched that mystic power exists in Kingdom. And this is also manga so some things might get exaggerated
like Yo Tan Wa and Kyoukai are female even though they are male historically.
Anyone remembered this panel !?? LMAO, SHK might be the one coming with miraculous strategy for food supply..... lol
@Owl Ki @Admiral Lee Hung @Yo Tan Wa @RayanOO @Dark Admiral @Patryipe @Greenbeard @Hiragaro etc...
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Just 90%. I don't remember much about Northern Campaign lol. Up till Yi Ling I remember what happened.
After Yi Ling if I summarize Wu was on the defensive, Shu launched continuous Northern Campaign against Wei and failed. Exhausted Shu got conquered by Wei. Then rebellion in Wei happened and Wei turned to Jin. Jin and Wu were on peace and years later Jin conquered Wu.
Mystic power are common in that novel IIRC. Zhang Jiao controlled wind, Yu Ji and Zuo Ci turned into crow.
After Yi Ling if I summarize Wu was on the defensive, Shu launched continuous Northern Campaign against Wei and failed. Exhausted Shu got conquered by Wei. Then rebellion in Wei happened and Wei turned to Jin. Jin and Wu were on peace and years later Jin conquered Wu.
Mystic power are common in that novel IIRC. Zhang Jiao controlled wind, Yu Ji and Zuo Ci turned into crow.
