General & Others The Problem With Post Timeskip
- Thread starter Uncle Van
- Start date
But there is a difference though. One is a flashback about Kyros as the toy soldier (which only lasted part of a chapter), the other is a flashback about Dressrosa in general.
I feel like Paulie got just as much, if not more panel time than Kyros did, I'm not sure why this is being stated. There were less characters in Water 7/Enies Lobby and Paulie had way more panel scenes than Kyros could in Dressrosa, where he had to share panel space with 30 other protagonist characters.
How is this any different from pre-timeskip?
I feel like Paulie got just as much, if not more panel time than Kyros did, I'm not sure why this is being stated. There were less characters in Water 7/Enies Lobby and Paulie had way more panel scenes than Kyros could in Dressrosa, where he had to share panel space with 30 other protagonist characters.
How is this any different from pre-timeskip?
Oda has forsaken the development of the SHs by developing only side characters.
Hence Dressrosa was entirely about the conflict of Kyros and Law and Wano is entirely about the scabbards, with WCI being the only arc post skip which focused around the conflict of a SH.
And even WCI could have been done better than it was. Each chapter towards the end, felt repetitive. Why do you need to have sanji say "I will bake a cake" like 3 times. Its like Oda ran out of substance so he made filler panels so the chapter wouldn't only be 7 pages long. I don't know why he couldn't have just given another SH a main fight so that he wouldn't need to do this.
Also the cake just seemed really meaningless. I know it will likely be later important but I just felt like it was so underwhelming for the finale of the arc to be Big Mom having a foodgasm.
Also, chopper did absolutely nothing in WCI, and Brooke and Nami, despite contributing a lot, didn't have meaningful subplots.
Hence Dressrosa was entirely about the conflict of Kyros and Law and Wano is entirely about the scabbards, with WCI being the only arc post skip which focused around the conflict of a SH.
And even WCI could have been done better than it was. Each chapter towards the end, felt repetitive. Why do you need to have sanji say "I will bake a cake" like 3 times. Its like Oda ran out of substance so he made filler panels so the chapter wouldn't only be 7 pages long. I don't know why he couldn't have just given another SH a main fight so that he wouldn't need to do this.
Also the cake just seemed really meaningless. I know it will likely be later important but I just felt like it was so underwhelming for the finale of the arc to be Big Mom having a foodgasm.
Also, chopper did absolutely nothing in WCI, and Brooke and Nami, despite contributing a lot, didn't have meaningful subplots.
because pre-skip was actually about the SHs, so while they had quirks, they also had meaningful subplots. Like Usopp in water 7.
The SHs don't get such attention post-skip, and hence they are essentially defined by their quirks. What's the most meaningful thing chopper has done since punk hazard? he's literally just become Luffy's mascot.
The SHs don't get such attention post-skip, and hence they are essentially defined by their quirks. What's the most meaningful thing chopper has done since punk hazard? he's literally just become Luffy's mascot.
I'm confused by this. Alabasta was exactly like this, except that Vivi was a pseudo strawhat. The conflict was about Vivi and her Kingdom. The reason why 90% of the arcs pre-timeskip felt "personal" was because it usually revolved around potential Strawhat.
- Orange Village
- Baratie
- Arlong
- Drum
- Alabasta and its smaller Boroque Works arcs
- Water 7/Enies Lobby
- Thriller Bark
ALL felt personal because the strawhats were personally attacked in some way. Post-Timeskip has been more about helping those in need. Whether or not that had disconnected you from the arc as a whole is another problem. But, making every arc personal just makes the world feel that much smaller. To me, it feels huge now because:
- Skypiea focused on 2 warring factions
- Fishman Island focused on Jinbe, racism of the fishkind.
- Punk Hazard focused on child experimentation
- Dressrosa focused on Kyros and Law
- Zou and Wano focus on the Scabbards and Momonosuke.
Oda sacrificed more "personal" stories for more grandiose ones, and IMO, it has made the stories richer. They worked 100% for pre-timeskip as the number of main characters increased, but would entirely make every arc feel redundant with inner conflict.
How many times do you want to see the crew fighting? How many times do you want to see a member leave? There's....not much you can do here lol. NOW, Wano's war should solidify Luffy's crews resolve and make each fight feel personal because this is the next step to achieving their dreams.
And honestly....don't fret, because the stories are about to get more personal again:
- Sabo, Vivi, and Alabasta are in the thick of shit right now in the story. We don't know what it means but we know it isn't good and we know the Strawhats will take it personally.
- Eventually Luffy will meet his father, Blackbeard and Shanks
- Eventually every Strawhat will be confronted by their dream, unless Oda intends to not finish his story
- Franky meeting Vegapunk/Kuma could be very personal
- Robin confronting CP-0 could be very personal
- Brook may have some big insight into Rocks and older pirates that we will find out about going into the end of the story.\
Just some examples I can think of.
I think a big problem people have is just the building and building and building to Wano the manga has done for almost 8 years now. I think once that is over, and Big Mom/Kaido are out of the picture, it will get more personal again, we just need to be patient.
Trust me, I agree, but read my latest post in this thread. It was certainly sacrificed for Oda to build his world up. Whether or not you like that is totally your opinion and I respect it.
And god, I absolutely hate Chopper right now. He was so good during Fishman Island, I am very confused as to what happened to the character after this point.
Just want to point out: Neither of these claims are true. All of the strawhats have been developing and being fleshed out over the course of the Timeskip. They haven't been ignored. Aside from Sanji their arcs or development just haven't been at the forefront of the story like they were preskip. It's been more subtle because they've taken a back seat to some of the larger stories being told.
Doesn't negate the point that it's just a list a wants and desires from the fanbase as opposed to any actual problems with the narrative. Just to be clear: I'm not even making the claim that the narrative doesn't have actual problems. Just that the fanbase seems to think that a narrative "flaw" is literally just anything that they "don't like".
I picked one at random because I didn't feel like going over the rest. I figured it was blatantly obvious that the real exciting stuff is being withheld for later as he usually does. Now that we're getting closing to confronting the Top Tiers he's had to do this more often. Though contextually theres no reason to see a full fleshed out battle between Sanji and Page One since the point of the Alliance is to stay lowkey and avoid doing anything too drastic. This isn't the war and they should save their energy for the actual battle.
I literally just went over one small way Franky was developed from the fight. Character Development isn't always going to involve some huge drastic change in character. Sometimes it's to emphasize their best traits.
Uh, no it doesn't. The main point is that the roles of the Scabbards haven't been fulfilled because their story isn't even over yet.
That scene was meant to be comedy. To subvert their expectations. Something the story has always been doing. Your claims of "Oda knew" are nothing more than head canon. As theres no evidence of that whatsoever.
You didn't but thats the only reason one would bother compare them in the first place. Otherwise you're just comparing apples to oranges and complaining that one thing is not like the other when it isn't meant to be.
Yeah. Thats a thing that exists.....so what? He's been doing that for 20 years. It's a normal tool in his storytelling toolkit.
Doesn't negate the point that it's just a list a wants and desires from the fanbase as opposed to any actual problems with the narrative. Just to be clear: I'm not even making the claim that the narrative doesn't have actual problems. Just that the fanbase seems to think that a narrative "flaw" is literally just anything that they "don't like".
I picked one at random because I didn't feel like going over the rest. I figured it was blatantly obvious that the real exciting stuff is being withheld for later as he usually does. Now that we're getting closing to confronting the Top Tiers he's had to do this more often. Though contextually theres no reason to see a full fleshed out battle between Sanji and Page One since the point of the Alliance is to stay lowkey and avoid doing anything too drastic. This isn't the war and they should save their energy for the actual battle.
I literally just went over one small way Franky was developed from the fight. Character Development isn't always going to involve some huge drastic change in character. Sometimes it's to emphasize their best traits.
Uh, no it doesn't. The main point is that the roles of the Scabbards haven't been fulfilled because their story isn't even over yet.
That scene was meant to be comedy. To subvert their expectations. Something the story has always been doing. Your claims of "Oda knew" are nothing more than head canon. As theres no evidence of that whatsoever.
You didn't but thats the only reason one would bother compare them in the first place. Otherwise you're just comparing apples to oranges and complaining that one thing is not like the other when it isn't meant to be.
Yeah. Thats a thing that exists.....so what? He's been doing that for 20 years. It's a normal tool in his storytelling toolkit.
Wake me up when we have pre vs post analysis that dont revolve mainly about fight. Its like beating a dead horse atm
edit : im gonna go ham
kyros character always leans to wanting to spend his time with his family, why should he join
there goes the suspense regarding sabo, pacing, and focus of wano. that way oda can keep us guessing
except now franky use suplexes after meeting senor pink
weekly reminder that by counting chapter, we are only at the early part of enies lobby by chapter number. An apple to apple comparison that can be done is only up until water seven
How can I know someone speedread one piece is when they say chopper has no development. Now he has many situation that allowed him to call the shot of what a party should do ( like when with carrot or with big mom), but of course community want development as in power level.
edit : im gonna go ham
kyros character always leans to wanting to spend his time with his family, why should he join
there goes the suspense regarding sabo, pacing, and focus of wano. that way oda can keep us guessing
except now franky use suplexes after meeting senor pink
weekly reminder that by counting chapter, we are only at the early part of enies lobby by chapter number. An apple to apple comparison that can be done is only up until water seven
How can I know someone speedread one piece is when they say chopper has no development. Now he has many situation that allowed him to call the shot of what a party should do ( like when with carrot or with big mom), but of course community want development as in power level.
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I lost faith after Sanji vs P1. Its hard to accept....but no one that isnt called Luffy, will have more than a chapter of a fight. Even Oden, the Luffy rip-off barely got anything.
I will heavily review over the upcoming chapters till Wano's end. In terms of plot....it's already shambles and uninteresting ( you can thank Meme for that). Theres no saving it no more. If Oda cannot impress me in terms of fights. I will totally give up on him.
I will heavily review over the upcoming chapters till Wano's end. In terms of plot....it's already shambles and uninteresting ( you can thank Meme for that). Theres no saving it no more. If Oda cannot impress me in terms of fights. I will totally give up on him.
Argue? How? There's hardly anything else to say....
You'll probably be in a coma since the analysis isnt mainly about fights.
Where did I say Kyros SHOULD join the SHs or fleet?
So you just assume the pacing of Wanp would be messed up for the sake of your argument?
You also assume that I spoke as if we should have seen everything that happened with the Revos. We didnt see everything with Ace n' BB and it got the readers guessing.
[QUOTR]
except now franky use suplexes after meeting senor pink
[/QUOTE]
Almost 200 chapters after the fact. There was no visible growth during the fight.
Ok and? What does chapter by chapter have to do with the thread? Your comparing apples to oranges.
No idea what you're saying with the first half.....once again, you strawman the entire post as being about power level, and generalize everyone's opinions as being based on power levels......
Like I said....I guess it's easy to invalidate someone's perspective by screaming power levels....
You'll probably be in a coma since the analysis isnt mainly about fights.
Where did I say Kyros SHOULD join the SHs or fleet?
So you just assume the pacing of Wanp would be messed up for the sake of your argument?
You also assume that I spoke as if we should have seen everything that happened with the Revos. We didnt see everything with Ace n' BB and it got the readers guessing.
[QUOTR]
except now franky use suplexes after meeting senor pink
[/QUOTE]
Almost 200 chapters after the fact. There was no visible growth during the fight.
Ok and? What does chapter by chapter have to do with the thread? Your comparing apples to oranges.
No idea what you're saying with the first half.....once again, you strawman the entire post as being about power level, and generalize everyone's opinions as being based on power levels......
Like I said....I guess it's easy to invalidate someone's perspective by screaming power levels....
I am first to criticize and see that there are some problems of PTS, but this isn´t it chief.
Your example of Kyros vs Paulie insinuates that characters can only be focused on when there is a deeper meaning or a consequence to the characters rather than be a part of the thematic focus of an arc, which Kyros clearly was, since he is the example of DD´s reign of terror and also an emotional focus point for the audience, and with him it definitely worked. I mean you can say it is subjective, but Kyros was one of the best things of Dressrosa, and his crying face that he held back for a decade of not being able to cry, gets me every time.
It is certainly more difficult for Oda to stimulate an response from the audience since compared to most of pre-TS, like some already said, we are past of major Strawhat drama at this point, so in order to create an emotional context, Oda has to create new characters and focus on them more. So the comparison in regards to Paulie and Kyros simply does not fit, since they represent different roles within their respective arcs.
And let´s take Skypeia for example, you had a lot of focus on Wyper who was interconnected with the thematic structure of the entire arc, and you get a flashback which is solely connected by the thematic and metaphorical connection, with no Strawhat pretty much directly involved, and Luffy only being invested due to his friends getting hurt, but obviously also the symbolic value of Luffy vs Enel.
Regarding Ace vs BB, it was teh decisive catalyst of the first half, almost every time we cut away from the Strawhats to the overall world, it
was in connection to this, whether it´s the Shichibukai meeting, Gorosei talking about it, Rockstar meeting Whitebeard, Shanks meeting Whitebeard...
And it had two of the most important side characters involved, with Ace being the reason Luffy doubts himself the first time, and BB being his main rival for PK.
Revos vs Admirals is just another event among many events of the post-TS, and whether it´s gonna be even remotely as important as Ace vs BB remains to be seen, so at this point, not comparable.
Post-TS suffers from structural problems the most, and at times, like i said, the attempt to stimulate an emotional response does not always work (Otohim + FI good, so was Kyros, children in PH not so much for example) since it is also harder to do so, and the structural problems unfortunately have some reaching consequences in other aspects.
Your example of Kyros vs Paulie insinuates that characters can only be focused on when there is a deeper meaning or a consequence to the characters rather than be a part of the thematic focus of an arc, which Kyros clearly was, since he is the example of DD´s reign of terror and also an emotional focus point for the audience, and with him it definitely worked. I mean you can say it is subjective, but Kyros was one of the best things of Dressrosa, and his crying face that he held back for a decade of not being able to cry, gets me every time.
It is certainly more difficult for Oda to stimulate an response from the audience since compared to most of pre-TS, like some already said, we are past of major Strawhat drama at this point, so in order to create an emotional context, Oda has to create new characters and focus on them more. So the comparison in regards to Paulie and Kyros simply does not fit, since they represent different roles within their respective arcs.
And let´s take Skypeia for example, you had a lot of focus on Wyper who was interconnected with the thematic structure of the entire arc, and you get a flashback which is solely connected by the thematic and metaphorical connection, with no Strawhat pretty much directly involved, and Luffy only being invested due to his friends getting hurt, but obviously also the symbolic value of Luffy vs Enel.
Regarding Ace vs BB, it was teh decisive catalyst of the first half, almost every time we cut away from the Strawhats to the overall world, it
was in connection to this, whether it´s the Shichibukai meeting, Gorosei talking about it, Rockstar meeting Whitebeard, Shanks meeting Whitebeard...
And it had two of the most important side characters involved, with Ace being the reason Luffy doubts himself the first time, and BB being his main rival for PK.
Revos vs Admirals is just another event among many events of the post-TS, and whether it´s gonna be even remotely as important as Ace vs BB remains to be seen, so at this point, not comparable.
Post-TS suffers from structural problems the most, and at times, like i said, the attempt to stimulate an emotional response does not always work (Otohim + FI good, so was Kyros, children in PH not so much for example) since it is also harder to do so, and the structural problems unfortunately have some reaching consequences in other aspects.
The decline of the this Manga started when the show focused less on the SH.
Lack of interactions between the crew members ( He could have fixed it just by adding 1/2 lines between the SH).
Non existent Fights beside Luffy ( But Hey drawing fights is hard, so Ok. )
Side characters that became more numerous and takes panel times on interesting ones.
Lack of interactions between the crew members ( He could have fixed it just by adding 1/2 lines between the SH).
Non existent Fights beside Luffy ( But Hey drawing fights is hard, so Ok. )
Side characters that became more numerous and takes panel times on interesting ones.