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Alright. Usually the last thing I'd consider myself is being an Ousen fanboy but your constant downplaying of him and his forces with all their feats in this reply has me a little triggered lmao.
I consider myself a fan of Rihaku and wish he made a comeback but we clearly have not enough details on Rihaku's feat of repelling the 50K forces and even harder to put them in any relation with the feat the Ousen army have shown on the shukai plains. Wasn't that also a siege battle iirc?
Shouheikun's statement is not universal lol. It's a testament to how much he believes in Moubu's abilities which goes back to how deep their friendship is. If tactics never mattered in the first place SHK would've never made Moubu use a tactic to allow Moubu breaking through into Kanmei's HQ to 1v1 him. That was clearly confirmation that otherwise Moubu wasn't able to beat the Chu army.
This is a whole lot of baseless assumptions and disgusting downplay dude. Your Bananji downplay (which i still don't get why) is not new to me but you're clearly disregarding the fact that "shell and joint" formation was so strong that it held back three armies simultaneously. The key to conquering that tactic was to specifically target the mobile joints so that units can't just adjust it to the enemy making it an impregnable fortress for them and guess who was the one to solve that puzzle? Yes the Goat Riboku.
Now, which strategist of the Moubu army is smart enough to do that ?
Also the reason why the formation crumbled later on was because Gyou'un attacked together with Bananji at a different area so that the Akou army couldn't adjust their formation against Bananji only. Moubu is absolutely breaking through with ease even. Do you think they'll have just an easy time walking through without another OP commander creating havoc like Gyou'un has done as well?
Moubu's strongest subordinate rn is Raiki and that guy definitely doesn't look like Gyou'un/Bananji level lol.
Yes and ultimately what did that accomplish?
Like i said, Moubu may very well break through even to Ousen's HQ but what about his army?
They're getting annihilated just like against Chou sou and don't forget that Moubu admitted it was his fault that the Qin got fucked and that Ouki moved to save his ass.
You think Gyou'un the guy that was the symbol for Zhao's martial might while Prime Renpa was active is getting slapped by Moubu 1v1?
Don't think so.
I'll give you a realistic outcome what happens when Moubu tries to breach the Shell and joint formation. Moubu breaks through very deep on his own and will eventually get jumped by Akou and Makou, more than enough to stall him hell even Sou'ou could jump him because the only subordinate they gotta worry about is Raiki and Shi'Ryou who broke Batei's nose 1v1 is enough to take this guy out lmao.
So we have:
- Akou and Makou to stall Moubu
- So'ou and Shi'ryou as strong fighters each on Batei level
- Denrimi who is a solid commander in tactics
- And then fucking Ousen himself.
You Moubu fans are wild lmao. Moubu is winning because he can swing his weapon very hard? This ain't One piece or Naruto. He's getting murked and even if he ain't his army is getting annihilated which results in the same.
Let's not get into comparing fodders. There's no indication proving in any way that Moubu's forces are superior. Makou's soldiers stalled the Kisui army after their general was killed and Akou's army is especially built for frontal clashes which coincidentally is what Moubu would do lol.
All i see is that the Ousen army is superior in any way which only makes sense. Ousen wants to become a King. He's only recruiting the best of the best.
Ousen has no skill has a head on commander?
Lol why don't we ask Riboku?
Not only did Ousen get behind the secret of Riboku's Hybrid formation which he drilled into his men for years in a matter of minutes but he personally went right in the mids of the battle analysing it and giving orders on the spot while Riboku was left speechless watching Ousen turn the tides from his HQ losing to overwhelming Riboku's HQ. Again, this is the best commander in the entire series.
And then another feat of the Ousen army getting done their special formation while plowing Riboku's from the back lmao
Ousen is the sole reason why Ordo is considered a joke in the first place. Also, let's not lump someone like Moubu together with the rest of the generals.
- Renpa is the most complete general period. Strength equal to Ouki, Top Tier strategist, Head on commander, damn near portrayed fighting like an instinctual commander and he has the 4 monsters one of which is Genpou and Kyou'En.
- YTW has the strongest army potentially in the entire series.
- Duke Hyou is losing to Ousen.
- Juukou gang has a guy probably stronger than Moubu, an elite strategist and two other combat monsters.
The importance of the pawns where stressed during the Zhao campaign. Sry Moubu bros but his army is to pathetically weak to even coming close of defeating the Ousen army.
Let's talk about this again when his elite subordinates will be shown. Until then he's another trophy for Lord Ousen.
I consider myself a fan of Rihaku and wish he made a comeback but we clearly have not enough details on Rihaku's feat of repelling the 50K forces and even harder to put them in any relation with the feat the Ousen army have shown on the shukai plains. Wasn't that also a siege battle iirc?
Shouheikun's statement is not universal lol. It's a testament to how much he believes in Moubu's abilities which goes back to how deep their friendship is. If tactics never mattered in the first place SHK would've never made Moubu use a tactic to allow Moubu breaking through into Kanmei's HQ to 1v1 him. That was clearly confirmation that otherwise Moubu wasn't able to beat the Chu army.
This is a whole lot of baseless assumptions and disgusting downplay dude. Your Bananji downplay (which i still don't get why) is not new to me but you're clearly disregarding the fact that "shell and joint" formation was so strong that it held back three armies simultaneously. The key to conquering that tactic was to specifically target the mobile joints so that units can't just adjust it to the enemy making it an impregnable fortress for them and guess who was the one to solve that puzzle? Yes the Goat Riboku.
Now, which strategist of the Moubu army is smart enough to do that ?
Also the reason why the formation crumbled later on was because Gyou'un attacked together with Bananji at a different area so that the Akou army couldn't adjust their formation against Bananji only. Moubu is absolutely breaking through with ease even. Do you think they'll have just an easy time walking through without another OP commander creating havoc like Gyou'un has done as well?
Moubu's strongest subordinate rn is Raiki and that guy definitely doesn't look like Gyou'un/Bananji level lol.
Yes and ultimately what did that accomplish?
Like i said, Moubu may very well break through even to Ousen's HQ but what about his army?
They're getting annihilated just like against Chou sou and don't forget that Moubu admitted it was his fault that the Qin got fucked and that Ouki moved to save his ass.
You think Gyou'un the guy that was the symbol for Zhao's martial might while Prime Renpa was active is getting slapped by Moubu 1v1?
Don't think so.
I'll give you a realistic outcome what happens when Moubu tries to breach the Shell and joint formation. Moubu breaks through very deep on his own and will eventually get jumped by Akou and Makou, more than enough to stall him hell even Sou'ou could jump him because the only subordinate they gotta worry about is Raiki and Shi'Ryou who broke Batei's nose 1v1 is enough to take this guy out lmao.
So we have:
- Akou and Makou to stall Moubu
- So'ou and Shi'ryou as strong fighters each on Batei level
- Denrimi who is a solid commander in tactics
- And then fucking Ousen himself.
You Moubu fans are wild lmao. Moubu is winning because he can swing his weapon very hard? This ain't One piece or Naruto. He's getting murked and even if he ain't his army is getting annihilated which results in the same.
Let's not get into comparing fodders. There's no indication proving in any way that Moubu's forces are superior. Makou's soldiers stalled the Kisui army after their general was killed and Akou's army is especially built for frontal clashes which coincidentally is what Moubu would do lol.
All i see is that the Ousen army is superior in any way which only makes sense. Ousen wants to become a King. He's only recruiting the best of the best.
Ousen has no skill has a head on commander?
Lol why don't we ask Riboku?
Not only did Ousen get behind the secret of Riboku's Hybrid formation which he drilled into his men for years in a matter of minutes but he personally went right in the mids of the battle analysing it and giving orders on the spot while Riboku was left speechless watching Ousen turn the tides from his HQ losing to overwhelming Riboku's HQ. Again, this is the best commander in the entire series.
And then another feat of the Ousen army getting done their special formation while plowing Riboku's from the back lmao
Ousen is the sole reason why Ordo is considered a joke in the first place. Also, let's not lump someone like Moubu together with the rest of the generals.
- Renpa is the most complete general period. Strength equal to Ouki, Top Tier strategist, Head on commander, damn near portrayed fighting like an instinctual commander and he has the 4 monsters one of which is Genpou and Kyou'En.
- YTW has the strongest army potentially in the entire series.
- Duke Hyou is losing to Ousen.
- Juukou gang has a guy probably stronger than Moubu, an elite strategist and two other combat monsters.
The importance of the pawns where stressed during the Zhao campaign. Sry Moubu bros but his army is to pathetically weak to even coming close of defeating the Ousen army.
Let's talk about this again when his elite subordinates will be shown. Until then he's another trophy for Lord Ousen.
Nani? Another Moubu vs Ousen debate?
This is perhaps the biggest lie that Worstgen has spread about Shouheikun, and I have no idea who is planting this thought into your guys’ heads. This idea that Shouheikun is biased towards Moubu’s strength because he is friends with the guy is completely wrong.
Shouheikun was the one who told Bayou Moubu that he was unable and unworthy to lead the Qin forces against the Zhao. He was the one who told Moubu to sit TF down, and that Ouki would be the one to lead the Qin because Ouki was more suited to the task than Moubu was. He said this in front of the entire Qin court for everyone to hear.
I have no idea where WorstGen has gotten the idea that Shouheikun overestimates Moubu because they are friends. Shouheikun doesn’t fuck around when it comes to organizing the Qin military, and I don’t recall one single indication that Shouheikun put his friendship with Moubu above optimal leadership decisions.
Well, this doesn’t contradict what I said about Moubu’s strength surpassing tactics. Shouheikun was trying to guarantee that Moubu would get a straight-shot to 1v1 Kanmei rather than Kanmei’s 80K engaging Moubu’s 40 and Moubu having to wear himself down to face Kanmei. (I think those were the numbers?)
Shouheikun was avoiding a tired Moubu facing a fresh Kanmei, that doesn’t debunk what I originally said about Moubu vs tactics.
I downplay Bananji? Lol this is news to me, last I checked I had him ranked equally with Kaishibou and =< to Renpa as a warrior. The worst I’ve ever said about Bananji is that Gyou Un >= him which is apparently controversial, and that Ouhon would’ve slain him which is facts. I’m an Ouhon fan you see, not a Bananji hater lol.
Well, Mouki but irrelevant:
Like I said before, Moubu will plow through Shells and Joints like nothing. This is the guy who slayed Kanmei who overwhelmingly defeated Oukotsu of the Qin 6, the guy ranked #1 of the current Qin Great Generals, the greatest offensive power in Qin history and the strongest brother in Christ in all of China.
This notion that fucking Akou would be able to stop someone of that caliber is absurd.
Yes. Moubu is on an entirely different level than Gyou’Un or Bananji. The entire point of his narrative hype is that his strength cannot be stopped by tactics. Bananji and Gyou’Un, while strong, have nothing on Moubu’s offensive might.
I seem to recall Moubu turning an army of second-stringers into a fighting force so powerful that when an elite Zhao army completely encircled them, Moubu’s army of tired old men and boys too young to fight completely eradicated the Zhao elites. While trapped in a fucking encirclement.
The rest of your argument is completely invalid to this point alone. “Moubu’s knowledge of warfare runs deep”-Ouki. And he said this about Bayou Moubu who was still in many ways an angry gorilla.
My brother in Christ, prime Renpa with angry GG weight loses a 1v1 to Moubu. Shukai Plains Gyou’Un, who was past his prime, would lose as well. Perhaps a mid/high diff fight.
Moubu will decorate the battlefield with their remains bro. I don’t see them even registering as a threat to him.
No, and I get that you are joking but this is a heavy bastardization of my argument lol. I’ve given it before in the Moubu vs Ousen thread but I’ll hit the high notes really quick:
Moubu is a character explicitly hyped as being above Q6 Great General level in ability. He is the greatest offensive power in Qin history as stated by Mouten, and before he had slain Kanmei (meaning he was still being underestimated) was compared to the Qin 6 by multiple reliable sources including Ouki. When Moubu’s full power wasn’t yet known, we were told that he was Qin 6 level. After he slayed Kanmei he was regarded as being above that level. Ousen’s best hype, is that he is 6GG tier which is great but falls short of Moubu’s explicit hype of being straight up above at least two of them. Even after Ousen’s incredible Gyou feat, not one motherfucker in this manga has distinguished him from Qin 6 level.
Shouheikun also states multiple times that he believes Moubu is the Qin’s strongest general, and remember above, Shouheikun is not biased towards Moubu and will straight up publicly put him in his place if the situation calls for it.
Therefore, we really have no choice but to face reality, Moubu > Ousen.
That’s not what I said, what I said was that his main strength was as a strategic commander. And this is the only aspect of Ousen’s warfare that has ever been hyped within the canon at all.
I’m terms of strategic warfare, I’d rank Ousen as number 2 or even number 1 of all time, right now. In terms of headon warfare, we’ve seen better GGs for sure. He’s very good, not exceptional.
And yes, I will compare Moubu to all of them because Moubu is being severely underestimated here.
-Moubu eradicated both Rihaku and Kousonryuu with a second string army. The Zhao elites literally encircled Moubu’s troops at one point, and Moubu’s troops still annihilated the encirclement, which had Ouki bewildered lol.
-Moubu defeated Kanmei, who himself had overwhelmingly defeated Oukotsu of the Qin 6, and also had achieved 99 undefeated victories for Chu (literally a service record only rivaled by Hakuki), and did possess the Weight of a Great General. Moubu defeated that guy with a numerical disadvantage. Lol
-And then Moubu stalled out Karin again for 3 years straight, again with a numerical disadvantage.
Moubu is absolutely the real deal as a General and I have no idea why people downplay him so much on WorstGen lol.
Moubu’s army? Pathetically weak?
I already mentioned how Moubu had an army of old men and children eradicate an army of Zhao elites with a massive tactical disadvantage above, imagining what Moubu can do with actual trained soldiers kind of scares me.
On the point of Moubu’s commanders: the existence of Aisen hardcore spits in the face of the idea that Moubu has weak commanders. Aisen has a strength stat above Akou if you’re into that sort of thing, and Aisen wasn’t even a core commander of Moubu, he was just an up-start lol. The idea that Moubu’s core commanders are weaker than someone like Aisen, who Moubu happily gave away to Mouten is to me, straight up ludicrous.
This is perhaps the biggest lie that Worstgen has spread about Shouheikun, and I have no idea who is planting this thought into your guys’ heads. This idea that Shouheikun is biased towards Moubu’s strength because he is friends with the guy is completely wrong.
Shouheikun was the one who told Bayou Moubu that he was unable and unworthy to lead the Qin forces against the Zhao. He was the one who told Moubu to sit TF down, and that Ouki would be the one to lead the Qin because Ouki was more suited to the task than Moubu was. He said this in front of the entire Qin court for everyone to hear.
I have no idea where WorstGen has gotten the idea that Shouheikun overestimates Moubu because they are friends. Shouheikun doesn’t fuck around when it comes to organizing the Qin military, and I don’t recall one single indication that Shouheikun put his friendship with Moubu above optimal leadership decisions.
Well, this doesn’t contradict what I said about Moubu’s strength surpassing tactics. Shouheikun was trying to guarantee that Moubu would get a straight-shot to 1v1 Kanmei rather than Kanmei’s 80K engaging Moubu’s 40 and Moubu having to wear himself down to face Kanmei. (I think those were the numbers?)
Shouheikun was avoiding a tired Moubu facing a fresh Kanmei, that doesn’t debunk what I originally said about Moubu vs tactics.
I downplay Bananji? Lol this is news to me, last I checked I had him ranked equally with Kaishibou and =< to Renpa as a warrior. The worst I’ve ever said about Bananji is that Gyou Un >= him which is apparently controversial, and that Ouhon would’ve slain him which is facts. I’m an Ouhon fan you see, not a Bananji hater lol.
Well, Mouki but irrelevant:
Like I said before, Moubu will plow through Shells and Joints like nothing. This is the guy who slayed Kanmei who overwhelmingly defeated Oukotsu of the Qin 6, the guy ranked #1 of the current Qin Great Generals, the greatest offensive power in Qin history and the strongest brother in Christ in all of China.
This notion that fucking Akou would be able to stop someone of that caliber is absurd.
Yes. Moubu is on an entirely different level than Gyou’Un or Bananji. The entire point of his narrative hype is that his strength cannot be stopped by tactics. Bananji and Gyou’Un, while strong, have nothing on Moubu’s offensive might.
I seem to recall Moubu turning an army of second-stringers into a fighting force so powerful that when an elite Zhao army completely encircled them, Moubu’s army of tired old men and boys too young to fight completely eradicated the Zhao elites. While trapped in a fucking encirclement.
The rest of your argument is completely invalid to this point alone. “Moubu’s knowledge of warfare runs deep”-Ouki. And he said this about Bayou Moubu who was still in many ways an angry gorilla.
My brother in Christ, prime Renpa with angry GG weight loses a 1v1 to Moubu. Shukai Plains Gyou’Un, who was past his prime, would lose as well. Perhaps a mid/high diff fight.
Moubu will decorate the battlefield with their remains bro. I don’t see them even registering as a threat to him.
No, and I get that you are joking but this is a heavy bastardization of my argument lol. I’ve given it before in the Moubu vs Ousen thread but I’ll hit the high notes really quick:
Moubu is a character explicitly hyped as being above Q6 Great General level in ability. He is the greatest offensive power in Qin history as stated by Mouten, and before he had slain Kanmei (meaning he was still being underestimated) was compared to the Qin 6 by multiple reliable sources including Ouki. When Moubu’s full power wasn’t yet known, we were told that he was Qin 6 level. After he slayed Kanmei he was regarded as being above that level. Ousen’s best hype, is that he is 6GG tier which is great but falls short of Moubu’s explicit hype of being straight up above at least two of them. Even after Ousen’s incredible Gyou feat, not one motherfucker in this manga has distinguished him from Qin 6 level.
Shouheikun also states multiple times that he believes Moubu is the Qin’s strongest general, and remember above, Shouheikun is not biased towards Moubu and will straight up publicly put him in his place if the situation calls for it.
Therefore, we really have no choice but to face reality, Moubu > Ousen.
That’s not what I said, what I said was that his main strength was as a strategic commander. And this is the only aspect of Ousen’s warfare that has ever been hyped within the canon at all.
I’m terms of strategic warfare, I’d rank Ousen as number 2 or even number 1 of all time, right now. In terms of headon warfare, we’ve seen better GGs for sure. He’s very good, not exceptional.
And yes, I will compare Moubu to all of them because Moubu is being severely underestimated here.
-Moubu eradicated both Rihaku and Kousonryuu with a second string army. The Zhao elites literally encircled Moubu’s troops at one point, and Moubu’s troops still annihilated the encirclement, which had Ouki bewildered lol.
-Moubu defeated Kanmei, who himself had overwhelmingly defeated Oukotsu of the Qin 6, and also had achieved 99 undefeated victories for Chu (literally a service record only rivaled by Hakuki), and did possess the Weight of a Great General. Moubu defeated that guy with a numerical disadvantage. Lol
-And then Moubu stalled out Karin again for 3 years straight, again with a numerical disadvantage.
Moubu is absolutely the real deal as a General and I have no idea why people downplay him so much on WorstGen lol.
Moubu’s army? Pathetically weak?
I already mentioned how Moubu had an army of old men and children eradicate an army of Zhao elites with a massive tactical disadvantage above, imagining what Moubu can do with actual trained soldiers kind of scares me.
On the point of Moubu’s commanders: the existence of Aisen hardcore spits in the face of the idea that Moubu has weak commanders. Aisen has a strength stat above Akou if you’re into that sort of thing, and Aisen wasn’t even a core commander of Moubu, he was just an up-start lol. The idea that Moubu’s core commanders are weaker than someone like Aisen, who Moubu happily gave away to Mouten is to me, straight up ludicrous.
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Somebody gotta repel those Moubu wankers. We aren't even in the Chu invasion and you guys are getting cocky as shit.
What other option did Shouheikun have but trust in Moubu to defeat Kanmei and win the battle against the Chu forces?
Using Ousen as a shield and Moubu as a sword was the one and only hope Qin had to survive the all offence of the coalition army. Why do you think was everyone in the court including SHK so relieved when the news reached them that Moubu won. It's not about SHK overrating Moubu. He had no other option than to believe in him because no general was suited for the job other than Moubu while during Bayou he did have Ouki to choose.
Should SHK have told Moubu that with 90% he's getting murked by Kanmei? Lol.
I get your point. Transferring this to Ousen vs Moubu there won't be a martial beast waiting for Moubu once he conquered all the tactics thrown at him, right?
Alright. I guess your arguments in the Gyou'un vs Bananji debates led me to believe that you downplay him. I'd actually love to have a Bananji vs Ouhon debate because Bananji would've won that battle and I'm kinda a Bananji fanboy.
Rihaku is in every way inferior to the Ousen army though in the strength of their average soldier and tactics of the commanders such as Akou. Akou's feats are definitely better.
Also, I'm pretty sure Moubu did that using his own army? I'm gonna check on that.
This doesn't make him a strategical genius capable of getting behind the mechanics of the formation devised by Ousen which it took Riboku to solve its mystery. Moubu maturing after Ouki's death clearly refers to him being a hot head that jumps into every obvious trap only because he either wants to prove something or believes in his strength so much that he doesn't think anything can beat him.
The Chousou thing might have been the eye opener for Moubu after his forces got wrecked because he was being retarded.
Agreed. In a head on clash of their forces Renpa wipes Moubu and his army out of China's history though.
No way you think Moubu is trashing both lmao. Best case scenario he's high diffing them. Banaji and Gyou'un smacked Akou around 2v1 and they were all on the same tier. You severely underestimate how dangerous it gets for Moubu 2v1. Besides, they only gotta stall him enough for the other commanders such as Ousen, Denrimi, So'ou and Shi'Ryou to do their thing. Remember, the latter were noted by Riboku to be a force to be reckoned with.
As i said before, the difference in their officers will decide the battle.
You're getting far too deep into powerscaling per portrayal here. Kingdom is one of the mangas were showings and the respective feats of the units matter much more than character statements and perceived portrayal.
We know the officers, how the armies fight, what their strengths and weaknesses are so we can vaguely simulate a battle between them.
That shit is FAR too vague bro. Doesn't Tou have the same standing as Moubu?
I remember that at some point both were put equal in terms of rank while Ousen and Kanki were below them.
- No Qin general could've killed Kanmei.
- Likewise could no Qin general have come up with the locusts strategy and remember that it was Ousen who solved the biggest issue from the very beginning which was the food supply after capturing Gyou. Not even SHK the guy that oversees the entire Qin military setting up the grand strategy for conquering China was quicker than Ousen in finding that answer.
Care to elaborate more on this?
Maybe i misunderstood what you mean with Head on general compared to a strategist.
Nobody is really undermining his feats. Moubu is one of the if not the most wanked current general.
This was mostly thanks to Moubu and his soldiers. They trained at first making Rihaku miscalculate their strength and once they started fucking his shit up the entire formation and spirit of the Zhao collapsed.
Though, I'm giving it to Moubu that he can severely strengthen an army. He also made Heki of all people into a badass. However, like i stated the Makou army have had a great feat of pushing back the Kisui army with morale alone and basically pulling a miracle. Mouten may have been the one with the idea to sacrifice one side of the army and get back the other into the fight using Makou's catch phrase, in the end that was all thanks to the strength of the soldiers though.
Sure nobody is doubting his strength 1v1.
Yeah, Karin is an opportunistic and sneaky general. I doubt she'd bother going head on with Moubu.
Bro I've rarely seen Moubu downplay lol.
Like i said. I'm sure that Moubu will have very strong commanders below him but as long as i don't get to see them I'm not assuming Moubu is pulling miracles without the proper officers to do so. No General can win a war on their own when the opossing force consists of several GG level guys. Not even during the Juuko battle we've seen anyone other than Raiki. I hope that changes.
What other option did Shouheikun have but trust in Moubu to defeat Kanmei and win the battle against the Chu forces?
Using Ousen as a shield and Moubu as a sword was the one and only hope Qin had to survive the all offence of the coalition army. Why do you think was everyone in the court including SHK so relieved when the news reached them that Moubu won. It's not about SHK overrating Moubu. He had no other option than to believe in him because no general was suited for the job other than Moubu while during Bayou he did have Ouki to choose.
Should SHK have told Moubu that with 90% he's getting murked by Kanmei? Lol.
I get your point. Transferring this to Ousen vs Moubu there won't be a martial beast waiting for Moubu once he conquered all the tactics thrown at him, right?
Alright. I guess your arguments in the Gyou'un vs Bananji debates led me to believe that you downplay him. I'd actually love to have a Bananji vs Ouhon debate because Bananji would've won that battle and I'm kinda a Bananji fanboy.
Rihaku is in every way inferior to the Ousen army though in the strength of their average soldier and tactics of the commanders such as Akou. Akou's feats are definitely better.
Also, I'm pretty sure Moubu did that using his own army? I'm gonna check on that.
This doesn't make him a strategical genius capable of getting behind the mechanics of the formation devised by Ousen which it took Riboku to solve its mystery. Moubu maturing after Ouki's death clearly refers to him being a hot head that jumps into every obvious trap only because he either wants to prove something or believes in his strength so much that he doesn't think anything can beat him.
The Chousou thing might have been the eye opener for Moubu after his forces got wrecked because he was being retarded.
Agreed. In a head on clash of their forces Renpa wipes Moubu and his army out of China's history though.
No way you think Moubu is trashing both lmao. Best case scenario he's high diffing them. Banaji and Gyou'un smacked Akou around 2v1 and they were all on the same tier. You severely underestimate how dangerous it gets for Moubu 2v1. Besides, they only gotta stall him enough for the other commanders such as Ousen, Denrimi, So'ou and Shi'Ryou to do their thing. Remember, the latter were noted by Riboku to be a force to be reckoned with.
As i said before, the difference in their officers will decide the battle.
You're getting far too deep into powerscaling per portrayal here. Kingdom is one of the mangas were showings and the respective feats of the units matter much more than character statements and perceived portrayal.
We know the officers, how the armies fight, what their strengths and weaknesses are so we can vaguely simulate a battle between them.
That shit is FAR too vague bro. Doesn't Tou have the same standing as Moubu?
I remember that at some point both were put equal in terms of rank while Ousen and Kanki were below them.
- No Qin general could've killed Kanmei.
- Likewise could no Qin general have come up with the locusts strategy and remember that it was Ousen who solved the biggest issue from the very beginning which was the food supply after capturing Gyou. Not even SHK the guy that oversees the entire Qin military setting up the grand strategy for conquering China was quicker than Ousen in finding that answer.
Care to elaborate more on this?
Maybe i misunderstood what you mean with Head on general compared to a strategist.
Nobody is really undermining his feats. Moubu is one of the if not the most wanked current general.
This was mostly thanks to Moubu and his soldiers. They trained at first making Rihaku miscalculate their strength and once they started fucking his shit up the entire formation and spirit of the Zhao collapsed.
Though, I'm giving it to Moubu that he can severely strengthen an army. He also made Heki of all people into a badass. However, like i stated the Makou army have had a great feat of pushing back the Kisui army with morale alone and basically pulling a miracle. Mouten may have been the one with the idea to sacrifice one side of the army and get back the other into the fight using Makou's catch phrase, in the end that was all thanks to the strength of the soldiers though.
Sure nobody is doubting his strength 1v1.
Yeah, Karin is an opportunistic and sneaky general. I doubt she'd bother going head on with Moubu.
Bro I've rarely seen Moubu downplay lol.
Like i said. I'm sure that Moubu will have very strong commanders below him but as long as i don't get to see them I'm not assuming Moubu is pulling miracles without the proper officers to do so. No General can win a war on their own when the opossing force consists of several GG level guys. Not even during the Juuko battle we've seen anyone other than Raiki. I hope that changes.
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@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung Major do you really believe if there isn't someone like Riboku (capable enough to point out weakness) aiding MouBu to break Shell and Joint formation, MouBu alone can dismantle/sweep in line the whole formation on his power alone and take down Ousen ?
MouBu definitely is strongest of all china in that era but still he can't achieve such results. Otherwise what are armies for or those soldiers. MouBu alone can enter opponents HQ and bring down enemy general all by himself.
-First of all the shells in that formation are enough to bring down his speed and momentum.
-Secondly after Akou and Makou engages with MouBu, that will make a complete full stop for him. Also i don't think Ousen is like others who are honorable generals and would stop there soldiers to interfere and make it a duel between generals. Those soldiers will definitely be making distractions all the time for MouBu with there spears and arrows.
Definitely MouBu can kill both Akou and Makou at the same time but it won't be any less than mid diff fight. But Ousen won't simply give him such opportunity. He will definitely use underhanded tricks to bring down MouBu.
-Thirdly if Sou'ou and Shiryuu also backs up Akou and Makou than Ousen won't even leave a situation where MouBu could retreat.
This all is based only on one thing that MouBu doesn't have any capability to understand weakness of the formation while considering the formation, it could also be able to isolate MouBu who enters inside formation with brute strength alone while army couldn't enter as mentioned here :
To guide MouBu here, i think only SHK, Riboku or Renpa are capable enough. With someone like Riboku, MouBu could definitely razed down Ousen's HQ as formation couldn't hold there army.
MouBu definitely is strongest of all china in that era but still he can't achieve such results. Otherwise what are armies for or those soldiers. MouBu alone can enter opponents HQ and bring down enemy general all by himself.
-First of all the shells in that formation are enough to bring down his speed and momentum.
-Secondly after Akou and Makou engages with MouBu, that will make a complete full stop for him. Also i don't think Ousen is like others who are honorable generals and would stop there soldiers to interfere and make it a duel between generals. Those soldiers will definitely be making distractions all the time for MouBu with there spears and arrows.
Definitely MouBu can kill both Akou and Makou at the same time but it won't be any less than mid diff fight. But Ousen won't simply give him such opportunity. He will definitely use underhanded tricks to bring down MouBu.
-Thirdly if Sou'ou and Shiryuu also backs up Akou and Makou than Ousen won't even leave a situation where MouBu could retreat.
This all is based only on one thing that MouBu doesn't have any capability to understand weakness of the formation while considering the formation, it could also be able to isolate MouBu who enters inside formation with brute strength alone while army couldn't enter as mentioned here :
To guide MouBu here, i think only SHK, Riboku or Renpa are capable enough. With someone like Riboku, MouBu could definitely razed down Ousen's HQ as formation couldn't hold there army.
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung Major do you really believe if there isn't someone like Riboku (capable enough to point out weakness) aiding MouBu to break Shell and Joint formation, MouBu alone can dismantle/sweep in line the whole formation on his power alone and take down Ousen ?
MouBu definitely is strongest of all china in that era but still he can't achieve such results. Otherwise what are armies for or those soldiers. MouBu alone can enter opponents HQ and bring down enemy general all by himself.
-First of all the shells in that formation are enough to bring down his speed and momentum.
-Secondly after Akou and Makou engages with MouBu, that will make a complete full stop for him. Also i don't think Ousen is like others who are honorable generals and would stop there soldiers to interfere and make it a duel between generals. Those soldiers will definitely be making distractions all the time for MouBu with there spears and arrows.
Definitely MouBu can kill both Akou and Makou at the same time but it won't be any less than mid diff fight. But Ousen won't simply give him such opportunity. He will definitely use underhanded tricks to bring down MouBu.
-Thirdly if Sou'ou and Shiryuu also backs up Akou and Makou than Ousen won't even leave a situation where MouBu could retreat.
This all is based only on one thing that MouBu doesn't have any capability to understand weakness of the formation while considering the formation, it could also be able to isolate MouBu who enters inside formation with brute strength alone while army couldn't enter as mentioned here :
To guide MouBu here, i think only SHK, Riboku or Renpa are capable enough. With someone like Riboku, MouBu could definitely razed down Ousen's HQ as formation couldn't hold there army.
MouBu definitely is strongest of all china in that era but still he can't achieve such results. Otherwise what are armies for or those soldiers. MouBu alone can enter opponents HQ and bring down enemy general all by himself.
-First of all the shells in that formation are enough to bring down his speed and momentum.
-Secondly after Akou and Makou engages with MouBu, that will make a complete full stop for him. Also i don't think Ousen is like others who are honorable generals and would stop there soldiers to interfere and make it a duel between generals. Those soldiers will definitely be making distractions all the time for MouBu with there spears and arrows.
Definitely MouBu can kill both Akou and Makou at the same time but it won't be any less than mid diff fight. But Ousen won't simply give him such opportunity. He will definitely use underhanded tricks to bring down MouBu.
-Thirdly if Sou'ou and Shiryuu also backs up Akou and Makou than Ousen won't even leave a situation where MouBu could retreat.
This all is based only on one thing that MouBu doesn't have any capability to understand weakness of the formation while considering the formation, it could also be able to isolate MouBu who enters inside formation with brute strength alone while army couldn't enter as mentioned here :
To guide MouBu here, i think only SHK, Riboku or Renpa are capable enough. With someone like Riboku, MouBu could definitely razed down Ousen's HQ as formation couldn't hold there army.
Not only would his soldiers do the same as Akou's but Denrimi could additionally detect weak and vulnerable spots and immediately fill them by either sending Shi'ryou or So'ou, that's something Akou couldn't do yet he still stopped three armies in their tracks.
I think Duke Hyou would conquer this technique tbh. He's the epitome of the instinctual type, he'd probably target the mobile joints out of pure instinct.
Akou is not only the 1st and oldest general under Ousen but also a genius and a martial beast as well. That's why Riboku said if he's not under Ousen than he also has the capability to be the Supreme commander of a large army.
Akou not only could replicate with accuracy but also could modify the formation as per the situation as it first was broken by Bananji but later GyouUn's charge utterly destroyed all of the hopes of Akou.
Ousen's version of formation and modifications (according to situation) would have been totally out of the board. That man's knowledge and experience is above Akou ’s level. Ousen's way of handling Riboku’s best hybrid formation without suffering too much casualties and time and than immediately counter it with his own formation (especially the speed with which he achieved red crane formation was totally out of the expectations and that was in front of a legendary general) clearly states his level as well as command over both warfare and his men. He didn't gave slightest chance to enemy to make any counter attack.
Definitely Duke should be able to achieve better results without any help of outstanding generals like mentioned above in case of MouBu or happened with Banaji. He did succeeded against previous best formation of Riboku at Coalition war (forgot the name but that was like rotating wheel).
At that moment his army and Shin could stay with Duke, but i doubt if his men could also keep it up with him here against Ousen's formation. That's due to the capability of formation to switch joints and rods and push back the army. Banaji succeeded after breaking further due to the interface and support of GyouUn, another martial beast and personal great army.
Akou not only could replicate with accuracy but also could modify the formation as per the situation as it first was broken by Bananji but later GyouUn's charge utterly destroyed all of the hopes of Akou.
Ousen's version of formation and modifications (according to situation) would have been totally out of the board. That man's knowledge and experience is above Akou ’s level. Ousen's way of handling Riboku’s best hybrid formation without suffering too much casualties and time and than immediately counter it with his own formation (especially the speed with which he achieved red crane formation was totally out of the expectations and that was in front of a legendary general) clearly states his level as well as command over both warfare and his men. He didn't gave slightest chance to enemy to make any counter attack.
Definitely Duke should be able to achieve better results without any help of outstanding generals like mentioned above in case of MouBu or happened with Banaji. He did succeeded against previous best formation of Riboku at Coalition war (forgot the name but that was like rotating wheel).
At that moment his army and Shin could stay with Duke, but i doubt if his men could also keep it up with him here against Ousen's formation. That's due to the capability of formation to switch joints and rods and push back the army. Banaji succeeded after breaking further due to the interface and support of GyouUn, another martial beast and personal great army.
With good reason
Sure, so strategic warfare has to do with what battlefields you choose, where you choose to attack and why, how you choose to leak information to your enemies, how you choose to move your armies, etc…the grand scale stuff like that.
Ousen is arguably the best in the manga at this I think. His capture of Gyou was a gigantic strategic showing. He chose to seige the nine cities and send the refugees towards Gyou, he saw the two large Zhao armies that posed a threat and chose to leave Kanki at Gyou while he and Yo Tan Wa would face the Zhao armies, he chose to negotiate with Qi for reinforcements later on in the campaign, etc.. that’s all strategic stuff.
Head-on war or “open war” as it’s called in Kingdom, is how you defeat an army when it is directly in front of you and you are engaging in a traditional battle. This would be stuff like battlefield tactics, formations, martial might, leadership/morale raising, etc…and at this stuff, I think Ousen is on the lower end of the spectrum compared to other GGs like Ouki, Renpa, Moubu, Yotanwa, etc…Ousen is good at open warfare but I think he loses to all of the above, and this is what I was talking about with Ousen vs Moubu.
Shouheikun did say something to this effect directly to Moubu, something like “this will be the most difficult task of the entire Coalition War, but I think you are the only one who can achieve this” or something like that.
Yes. Shells and Joints, we can pretty much assume that is Ousen’s best defensive tactic (excluding strategic things like retreating, mountain fortresses, hiding his army like against Ordo, etc) as this was the tactic that Akou busted out when it came time to stop Gyou’Un and Bananji dead. And like I said, I doubt that this stops Moubu as I assume Shouheikun knows defensive tactics of this caliber and yet according to him, tactics still do not work on Moubu.
Tag me bro. They have equal stats and such a debate will probably go nowhere but I’m game nonetheless. Lol
No bro, Moubu did this with his second-stringers. That was the whole point of Moubu waiting until day two to attack, as his army lacked confidence due to their extreme disadvantage and waiting until day 2 drew out explosive strength from them.
Also, Rihaku’s troops and Ousen’s troops are probably pretty much the same…Ousen’s tactics may be better but an encirclement is pretty much the most devastating thing you can do to an army, and yet Moubu’s army still eradicated the encirclement which is truly a disturbingly good feat from Moubu quite frankly lol.
Perhaps. Renpa is like the open warfare goat though. No Great General we’ve seen is beating him and his Heavenly Kings. I’d be curious to see how Renpa would deal with Moubu or Kanmei.
Moubu’s feats do match the statements we got about him though, if anything all of the statements we received about him were underselling what he was actually capable of. And all of these statements were made by credible sources. I would think that the same applies to Ousen, and Moubu’s statements > Ousen’s.
Sharing a rank doesn’t equate to sharing strength lol. But regardless I don’t think Moubu is far above Tou but he is above him.
Ya like I said, truly an incredible feat from Ousen. Ousen is a huge part of the reason that the Gyou arc is my favorite in Kingdom.
Bruh, go reread the “number one Qin General” thread. The disrespect thrown at Moubu thread is thicc. Ousen also has 21 votes on the poll and Moubu has like 5 lol. I’m pretty sure Tou and Yotanwa have the same amount of votes as him.
Sure. That’s a strategist’s job is to dismantle tactics like that lol. Not to downplay Shells and Joints, but what’s the point of bringing a strategist along if the only dude in China who can dismantle an Akou level tactic is Riboku himself lol.
Regardless, that’s not my main argument, my main argument is that Moubu breaks through Shells and Joints quite easily as you said in your post.
I mean for real, in your guys’ mind when you picture the greatest offensive power in Qin history, greater offense than Ouki, Hakuki, Kyou, Oukotsu, Shibasaku and Koshou…
You look at offensive strength of that caliber and think “But can he overcome Akou?” Lol
Sure, so strategic warfare has to do with what battlefields you choose, where you choose to attack and why, how you choose to leak information to your enemies, how you choose to move your armies, etc…the grand scale stuff like that.
Ousen is arguably the best in the manga at this I think. His capture of Gyou was a gigantic strategic showing. He chose to seige the nine cities and send the refugees towards Gyou, he saw the two large Zhao armies that posed a threat and chose to leave Kanki at Gyou while he and Yo Tan Wa would face the Zhao armies, he chose to negotiate with Qi for reinforcements later on in the campaign, etc.. that’s all strategic stuff.
Head-on war or “open war” as it’s called in Kingdom, is how you defeat an army when it is directly in front of you and you are engaging in a traditional battle. This would be stuff like battlefield tactics, formations, martial might, leadership/morale raising, etc…and at this stuff, I think Ousen is on the lower end of the spectrum compared to other GGs like Ouki, Renpa, Moubu, Yotanwa, etc…Ousen is good at open warfare but I think he loses to all of the above, and this is what I was talking about with Ousen vs Moubu.
Shouheikun did say something to this effect directly to Moubu, something like “this will be the most difficult task of the entire Coalition War, but I think you are the only one who can achieve this” or something like that.
Yes. Shells and Joints, we can pretty much assume that is Ousen’s best defensive tactic (excluding strategic things like retreating, mountain fortresses, hiding his army like against Ordo, etc) as this was the tactic that Akou busted out when it came time to stop Gyou’Un and Bananji dead. And like I said, I doubt that this stops Moubu as I assume Shouheikun knows defensive tactics of this caliber and yet according to him, tactics still do not work on Moubu.
Tag me bro. They have equal stats and such a debate will probably go nowhere but I’m game nonetheless. Lol
No bro, Moubu did this with his second-stringers. That was the whole point of Moubu waiting until day two to attack, as his army lacked confidence due to their extreme disadvantage and waiting until day 2 drew out explosive strength from them.
Also, Rihaku’s troops and Ousen’s troops are probably pretty much the same…Ousen’s tactics may be better but an encirclement is pretty much the most devastating thing you can do to an army, and yet Moubu’s army still eradicated the encirclement which is truly a disturbingly good feat from Moubu quite frankly lol.
Perhaps. Renpa is like the open warfare goat though. No Great General we’ve seen is beating him and his Heavenly Kings. I’d be curious to see how Renpa would deal with Moubu or Kanmei.
Moubu’s feats do match the statements we got about him though, if anything all of the statements we received about him were underselling what he was actually capable of. And all of these statements were made by credible sources. I would think that the same applies to Ousen, and Moubu’s statements > Ousen’s.
Sharing a rank doesn’t equate to sharing strength lol. But regardless I don’t think Moubu is far above Tou but he is above him.
Ya like I said, truly an incredible feat from Ousen. Ousen is a huge part of the reason that the Gyou arc is my favorite in Kingdom.
Bruh, go reread the “number one Qin General” thread. The disrespect thrown at Moubu thread is thicc. Ousen also has 21 votes on the poll and Moubu has like 5 lol. I’m pretty sure Tou and Yotanwa have the same amount of votes as him.
Sure. That’s a strategist’s job is to dismantle tactics like that lol. Not to downplay Shells and Joints, but what’s the point of bringing a strategist along if the only dude in China who can dismantle an Akou level tactic is Riboku himself lol.
Regardless, that’s not my main argument, my main argument is that Moubu breaks through Shells and Joints quite easily as you said in your post.
I mean for real, in your guys’ mind when you picture the greatest offensive power in Qin history, greater offense than Ouki, Hakuki, Kyou, Oukotsu, Shibasaku and Koshou…
You look at offensive strength of that caliber and think “But can he overcome Akou?” Lol
Argh you got me Kanki
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Btw Kanki is such a genius General.
He do such thing outside the box, i mean riboku maybe already studied all formation and how to counter that. But Kanki can change the situation 360 degree which is i think riboku cannot counter in little time.
Anyone have information based on true story how Kanki meet his end?
Back then i read he got killed in a war, but which war i dont remember.
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Btw im curious so i lookin it by my self.
Kanki Real Life
So sad i think this is the end of Kanki.
But after this battle zhao wont have greater win anymore.
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If that's what you think than forget about Ousen's formation, MouBu should be an one man army and SHK shouldn't have wasted his time and energy to prepare an strategy for tackling Chu's army. MouBu alone should have slayed all of the generals of Coalition single-handedly without any army but just the title of being strongest. Lol
Though i still believe a good formation can hold/stop MouBu's momentum and once it got stopped either opponents generals and elite soldiers or thousands of regular soldiers are enough to bring down even the strongest of whole earth.
That would be a huge spoiler, but one thing for sure that he didn't got killed in warfare.
Though i still believe a good formation can hold/stop MouBu's momentum and once it got stopped either opponents generals and elite soldiers or thousands of regular soldiers are enough to bring down even the strongest of whole earth.
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That would be a huge spoiler, but one thing for sure that he didn't got killed in warfare.
1 vs 1 army vs Army Moubu would clap Akou even if he knows Shell and joints. Why ? Because I think with sheer strength and some losses he can overcome that tactics and destroy Akou afterwards
So yeah Moubu can def overcome Akou.
But here it's Ousen vs Moubu.
Ousen also has Makou, Denrimi, Sou'ou, his chick, and Ousen can read the flow of the battle and adapt, makes traps, can attack a weak point of Moubu army to force him to help somewhere else etc etc.
I'm not saying Moubu will be trapped like a fool like in Bayou but Ousen pulling a Riboku killing Makou is not impossible at all.
Moubu is a monster but I don't see him beating Ousen for now.
hell no (but we already had that debate)
Ousen is not just your Q6, the guy was the commander in chief of the whole army for the western Zhao campaign : so a portrayal above Kanki and YTW.
So yeah Moubu can def overcome Akou.
But here it's Ousen vs Moubu.
Ousen also has Makou, Denrimi, Sou'ou, his chick, and Ousen can read the flow of the battle and adapt, makes traps, can attack a weak point of Moubu army to force him to help somewhere else etc etc.
I'm not saying Moubu will be trapped like a fool like in Bayou but Ousen pulling a Riboku killing Makou is not impossible at all.
Moubu is a monster but I don't see him beating Ousen for now.
hell no (but we already had that debate)Ousen is not just your Q6, the guy was the commander in chief of the whole army for the western Zhao campaign : so a portrayal above Kanki and YTW.
@Owl Ki @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @MarineHQ62
@Shanks
I have the feeling that Shibashou will be at least partially an instinctual commander, a sleeping wild beast that awakened. Thoughts?
Lee most definitely doesn't, as you might have noticed lol.
@Shanks
I have the feeling that Shibashou will be at least partially an instinctual commander, a sleeping wild beast that awakened. Thoughts?
Lee most definitely doesn't, as you might have noticed lol.
If it's somewhat on the level of Duke (instictually) than it would be awesome. If that happens than the confrontation between SBS and Shin would be more epic.
Though i personally like him to be like Renpa. A general who's beast in strength and genius in warfare. We haven't seen many of the generals who have both brain and brawn. So far there're only Ouki, Gekishin, SHK and Renpa who fits in this category. While rest either too much brawn or too much strategical. Note : I don't believe Tou is on same level as either of the four mentioned above.
Though i personally like him to be like Renpa. A general who's beast in strength and genius in warfare. We haven't seen many of the generals who have both brain and brawn. So far there're only Ouki, Gekishin, SHK and Renpa who fits in this category. While rest either too much brawn or too much strategical. Note : I don't believe Tou is on same level as either of the four mentioned above.
If he's instinctual, his insticts will be extremely strong, though I doubt they'll be on par with Hyou's. He'll be close, closer than anyone else.
Hyou's instinctual level will be perfectly matched and surpassed by Shin only imo.
But maybe he could also be both strategical and instinctual, like Renpa.
I'm definitely feeling the instinctual part at least.
Hyou's instinctual level will be perfectly matched and surpassed by Shin only imo.
But maybe he could also be both strategical and instinctual, like Renpa.
I'm definitely feeling the instinctual part at least.