Fanclub Islam Group

BleakAsh · Aug 12, 2022

Yusuf Estes i have seen him being more humorous talking about certain regulations and Islamic traditions.. it does depend on innate temperament... Yusuf Estes is more Soft and calm.. Zakir Naik is more technical and straight forward and at times provocative against non-Muslims..

And then you have Speakers like Muhammad Hoblos that render their face beet red in speeches through loud and passionate emphasis dealing with worldly problems we have as individuals which honestly you don't see Speakers like Zakir Naik do much on that.. Zakir Naik is the Mild Shiekh Assim Al Hakeem of India.. they just give you ruling and the opinions of the 4 schools and that's it.. they don't become emotionally involved in the dialog..

coz then again they just answer questions while folks like Muhammad Hoblos and many others give speeches with real emotional vigor who also logically excel at touching people's understanding and feeling.

NikaInParis · Aug 12, 2022

BleakAsh said:

My personal preference, and this might be a cultural thing, is to only be presented facts by speakers. Becoming too emotional in anything you do can lead one away from facts and leave the door open for personal interpretations of things that are already unanimously accepted by the community.

But at the end of the day they are just videos. We have the two most important things to guide us already available to us, that's enough elhamdulillah

BleakAsh · Aug 12, 2022

NikaInParis said:

That is true but when it comes to existing realities like Iman there is no way else you can understand how grave the problem of iman and internal unrest is unless its presented as intuitive facts from people of knowledge who actually understand that problem you face and present it in a fashion that is profound to you.

The matter of halal and Haram we already know.. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) has told us that Halal has been made obvious and haram is made obvious and its best to not approach whats in the middle..
We mashallah have out schools of thoughts to learn from Alhumduillah.

NikaInParis · Aug 12, 2022

BleakAsh said:

Idk if you or anyone else will agree with me, but the problem is the word schools. The plural. Why is there a need for schools when there is only one true way?
This division in our religion (even in christianity) just opens up the door for different people to say "well, this can acutally be interpreted in this way so you should do it like this" and then someone answers "no no, that is wrong, what was meant was this and you should do it like that". And that opens up a third opinion, and that a fourth.

The Qur'an and the sunnet of the Prophet are explicitly mentioned as the sole sources of solutions for us. Does that mean we don't need scholars at all? Of course we do! Seeking knowledge is an obligation for us. But to rely entirely on their interpretation of another person's problems isn't necessarily good. But Allah knows best

BornInAbyss · Aug 12, 2022

Wow here are people muslim I never thought they would be. I too am muslim. Selam brothers.

BleakAsh · Aug 12, 2022

NikaInParis said:

I'll try to explain this in the best way possible that i personally can if anyone finds mistake in what i say they are up for correction obviously

Btw Jummah Mubarak to you and Other here @BornInAbyss @ranady @VisualKei

this is actually a pretty lengthy topic to discuss
So starting off you should understand the basics of the time of out Prophet's (SAW) and the later 4 rightly guided Caliph's (RA) times

During their time Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the leader who would give Fatwas or speeches dealing the issues of people and regarding what is halal snd haram and during his time many Sahabah's would memorize and write down the words of the prophet and preach it to people.

After the death of our Prophet (PBUH) the next leader was Abu Bakr Assidiq (RA) the best friend of the Prophet (SAW) and since he was chosen by all the Sahabah to lead the Ummah After the Prophet people then started to come to him to give rulings..now you will ask me.. who gave Abubakr the right to make ruling when he isn't the Prophet.. first off he knew Prophet (SAW) more than anyone on the planet that every met the Prophet

And Prophet Muhammad (Saw) told us in a sound Hadith you can just read the highlights if you want to but it states

"Hadith 28, 40 Hadith an-Nawawi
On the authority of Abu Najeeh al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said:
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) gave us a sermon by which our hearts were filled with fear and tears came to our eyes. So we said, “O Messenger of Allah! It is as though this is a farewell sermon, so counsel us.” He (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “I counsel you to have taqwa (fear) of Allah, and to listen and obey [your leader], even if a slave were to become your ameer. Verily he among you who lives long will see great controversy, so you must keep to my Sunnah and to the Sunnah of the Khulafa ar-Rashideen (the rightly guided caliphs), those who guide to the right way. Cling to it stubbornly [literally: with your molar teeth]. Beware of newly invented matters [in the religion], for verily every bidah (innovation) is misguidance.”

[Abu Dawud]
It was related by at-Tirmidhi, who said that it was a good and sound hadeeth.

in another Hadith :
Prophet (pbuh) himself when he said, “The caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom to whom He wishes” (Abu Dawud).

And historians calculate that to be around the time of the Reign of Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Ali.. (Radiyallah Anhum)

So basically after Abu Bakr (Ra) died the next caliph followed who would direct people with rulings and so on and son on until the last caliph Ali bin Abi Talib was Martyred..

So the question is.. who would people go to next for rulings on things from prophetic narrations and what the Caliphs Commanded..

after the time of the Caliphs passed the were no proper bodies or councils of people that would direct people and make rulings accordingly.. the only thing left was prophetic narration that was taught by Sahaba to their students and then Those students to their potential students and ruling were made by the scholars and their understanding and evidence of the way of the prophet

So here is where the 4 schools of thought come in.

to summarize the rest of it without going into huge details..

The 4 schools of thought were each created by Imam MaliK (RA), Imam Abu Hanifa (RA), Imam Shafi'i (Ra), and Imam Ahmad bin Hambal (RA)

These people were certified Mammoths of their times.. they memorized Hundreds of thousands of hadith with their chain if narration and had backing of the students of Sahaba or their Students..

Now the problem was no one knew what rulings should be directed like i said again there was nothing to get guidelines from..for example the way prophet (saw) prayed.. the way he made Wuduo.. what about the beard he had.. what did he recite during prayer etc etc.. they just had prophet's narrations but not their practical implementation or guidance

So Basically Imam MaliK the Creator of the Maliki Fiqh used the actions of the people of Madina where Prophet spent most of in and the a thousand narrations that he got from over a 100,000 hadith he memorized and complied it into his book called Muwatta Imam Malik.. which is a book of islamic law and ruling based on quran and sunnah

Similarly the Imam abu Hanifa who was in Kufa (Iraq or syria ig) faced a similar problem and unlike Imam Malik Kufa wasn't a fertile soil for prophetic tradition's implementation.. so he had his way of dealing with Islamic ruling

and the rest 2 Imam's (Imama Shafi'i and Imama Ahma) followed making their own fiqh after observing the fiqkh of Imama Mailk and Imam Abu hanifa.. in the attempt to make a much more conservative and uncompromising jurisprudential body that is true to Prophet's teachings and his companions

They all have differences but not such that they directly contradict Islam and Quran in general which they should have consensus on coz note that Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifa used to meet each other... Imama Shafi'i was a student of Imam Malik and Imam Ahmad was a student of imam Shafi'i..... Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmad used to travel extensively unlike Imama Malik amd Imama Abu Hanifa.. so they gathers more Hadiths that were spread across the arabian peninsula ( as alot of the sahaba were sperad around arabia.. like some in iraq and in Egypt and had their students there.. and niw there were scholars there too) than Imam Malik who was in Madina only and Imama Abu hanifa who was in Kufa .. they just have their own way of approaching rulings of Islam

And the vast majority of the scholars agree that following the one you prefer is alright.. and these 4 imam had respect for each other and eveb if their ways of approaching Islamic law and rules differed

so no one in their right mind who would know theseu things woukd come up to and say.. Imam abu hanifa was wrong

if someone say that you shoukd realize that they are ignorant and had an IQ of a toe nail to call the geniuses of their times WRONG..

the flipin ballz people have smh

any way i think i went on for too long but hopefully this helped in your understanding to why schools of thoughts exist.

VisualKei · Aug 12, 2022

BornInAbyss said:

Walaikum Salam brothers

BleakAsh said:

Jummah Mubarak to everyone in here as well

NikaInParis · Aug 12, 2022

BleakAsh said:

I'll try to explain this in the best way possible that i personally can if anyone finds mistake in what i say they are up for correction obviously

Btw Jummah Mubarak to you and Other here @BornInAbyss @ranady @VisualKei

this is actually a pretty lengthy topic to discuss
So starting off you should understand the basics of the time of out Prophet's (SAW) and the later 4 rightly guided Caliph's (RA) times

During their time Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the leader who would give Fatwas or speeches dealing the issues of people and regarding what is halal snd haram and during his time many Sahabah's would memorize and write down the words of the prophet and preach it to people.

After the death of our Prophet (PBUH) the next leader was Abu Bakr Assidiq (RA) the best friend of the Prophet (SAW) and since he was chosen by all the Sahabah to lead the Ummah After the Prophet people then started to come to him to give rulings..now you will ask me.. who gave Abubakr the right to make ruling when he isn't the Prophet.. first off he knew Prophet (SAW) more than anyone on the planet that every met the Prophet

And Prophet Muhammad (Saw) told us in a sound Hadith you can just read the highlights if you want to but it states

"Hadith 28, 40 Hadith an-Nawawi
On the authority of Abu Najeeh al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said:
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) gave us a sermon by which our hearts were filled with fear and tears came to our eyes. So we said, “O Messenger of Allah! It is as though this is a farewell sermon, so counsel us.” He (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “I counsel you to have taqwa (fear) of Allah, and to listen and obey [your leader], even if a slave were to become your ameer. Verily he among you who lives long will see great controversy, so you must keep to my Sunnah and to the Sunnah of the Khulafa ar-Rashideen (the rightly guided caliphs), those who guide to the right way. Cling to it stubbornly [literally: with your molar teeth]. Beware of newly invented matters [in the religion], for verily every bidah (innovation) is misguidance.”

[Abu Dawud]
It was related by at-Tirmidhi, who said that it was a good and sound hadeeth.

in another Hadith :
Prophet (pbuh) himself when he said, “The caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom to whom He wishes” (Abu Dawud).

And historians calculate that to be around the time of the Reign of Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Ali.. (Radiyallah Anhum)

So basically after Abu Bakr (Ra) died the next caliph followed who would direct people with rulings and so on and son on until the last caliph Ali bin Abi Talib was Martyred..

So the question is.. who would people go to next for rulings on things from prophetic narrations and what the Caliphs Commanded..

after the time of the Caliphs passed the were no proper bodies or councils of people that would direct people and make rulings accordingly.. the only thing left was prophetic narration that was taught by Sahaba to their students and then Those students to their potential students and ruling were made by the scholars and their understanding and evidence of the way of the prophet

So here is where the 4 schools of thought come in.

to summarize the rest of it without going into huge details..

The 4 schools of thought were each created by Imam MaliK (RA), Imam Abu Hanifa (RA), Imam Shafi'i (Ra), and Imam Ahmad bin Hambal (RA)

These people were certified Mammoths of their times.. they memorized Hundreds of thousands of hadith with their chain if narration and had backing of the students of Sahaba or their Students..

Now the problem was no one knew what rulings should be directed like i said again there was nothing to get guidelines from..for example the way prophet (saw) prayed.. the way he made Wuduo.. what about the beard he had.. what did he recite during prayer etc etc.. they just had prophet's narrations but not their practical implementation or guidance

So Basically Imam MaliK the Creator of the Maliki Fiqh used the actions of the people of Madina where Prophet spent most of in and the a thousand narrations that he got from over a 100,000 hadith he memorized and complied it into his book called Muwatta Imam Malik.. which is a book of islamic law and ruling based on quran and sunnah

Similarly the Imam abu Hanifa who was in Kufa (Iraq or syria ig) faced a similar problem and unlike Imam Malik Kufa wasn't a fertile soil for prophetic tradition's implementation.. so he had his way of dealing with Islamic ruling

and the rest 2 Imam's (Imama Shafi'i and Imama Ahma) followed making their own fiqh after observing the fiqkh of Imama Mailk and Imam Abu hanifa.. in the attempt to make a much more conservative and uncompromising jurisprudential body that is true to Prophet's teachings and his companions

They all have differences but not such that they directly contradict Islam and Quran in general which they should have consensus on coz note that Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifa used to meet each other... Imama Shafi'i was a student of Imam Malik and Imam Ahmad was a student of imam Shafi'i..... Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmad used to travel extensively unlike Imama Malik amd Imama Abu Hanifa.. so they gathers more Hadiths that were spread across the arabian peninsula ( as alot of the sahaba were sperad around arabia.. like some in iraq and in Egypt and had their students there.. and niw there were scholars there too) than Imam Malik who was in Madina only and Imama Abu hanifa who was in Kufa .. they just have their own way of approaching rulings of Islam

And the vast majority of the scholars agree that following the one you prefer is alright.. and these 4 imam had respect for each other and eveb if their ways of approaching Islamic law and rules differed

so no one in their right mind who would know theseu things woukd come up to and say.. Imam abu hanifa was wrong

if someone say that you shoukd realize that they are ignorant and had an IQ of a toe nail to call the geniuses of their times WRONG..

the flipin ballz people have smh

any way i think i went on for too long but hopefully this helped in your understanding to why schools of thoughts exist.

Just so there is no confussion: I never stated I am against any of the rules and regulations stated in the Qur'an or sunnet

But, when faced with questions about our faith I like to approach them from a stand point of "what would a non-muslim find here that could be illogical".

And immediately, after Prophet Muhamed savs death, the thing he warned would come began - that is the division of the Ummah. As soon as Abu Bakr assumed the position of Khaliph, there were voices who were saying "it should have been Ali". And after each Khaliph up until Ali, the same things were said "it should have been Ali". The first seeds of division were planted already from which the later schism into Sunni and Shia Islam came (and hundreds of sub branches later on).

The four imams who established those schools of thought - no one can take away their knowledge or reputation from them.

But the fact that we have 4 schools and not 1 already speaks true to the controversy (or beginning of it, anyway) Muhamed savs spoke of.

If there were NO differences between them, then there would be no 4 schools but only one, unanimos school. Why not adhere to the first one that was established? Or the most extensive one? Because division had already taken place.

"Yes Imam Malik was a great scholar, amazing human. He raised very good points etc etc. But THIS school of thought I came up with, oh boy, this is the real stuff. How is it different from Malik's? Well some minor stuff mostly, but it's amazing, trust me."

And now, as I write this response, I realize the irony of talking about division while arguing with another muslim.

BleakAsh · Aug 12, 2022

NikaInParis said:

Sunni shia is whole diffene topic that honestly even thi ik gist of.. i'd say I'm nit qualified to talk about it

but just know that Sunni's and Shia's have fundamental differences in Aqeda.. they put Ali (RA) higher than prophets.. some would even argue that to a divine nature (Audhubillah)

bro like its simple 4 schools of thought have similarities and differences in how they approach Islamic jurisprudence

Its 4 different ways to approach how prophet's actions commands and formulating ruling on them based on Quran

They don't divide Muslims.... i can have my way prayer be hambali...and have the parts of my everyday life like Wudu derived from other schools of thought that i see fit.

so basically they are options for you to choose from depending on what you believe is the most accurate way

Again these 4 school of thought are for individuals to choose from.. you'll honestly see people like Sheikh Assim al hakim quote each School of thought and whether its more accurate or not or whether its ideal or not

Look you should understand that nit all the schools of thoughts existed simultaneous.. Imam Shafi'i's and Imam Ahmads came later.. the reason why that was the case is becuz the previous 2 schools of thought were limited by their hadith and region they were founded in

Imama malik used people of madina who were pious followers of Prophet's sunnah to create his own ruling that weren't limited to him... but also the first ever collection of Hadith that he got form the people of madina that were checked by his greatest contemporary scholars..

so he based it upon limited hadith of his region and the implementation of the actions of people of madinah

Imam ABu hanifa was no different.. he was regionally restricted and used the tools he possessed with what hadith there was in a the region to make his own islamic Fiqh based on the resources he had.

So now you'd ask why did Imam Shafi'i and Imama Ahmad made their own Fiqh

its becuz they understood that Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifa have limited resourced and devised their own way of "reasoning" with the resources they had

Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmad gathered much more ahadith from around the Arabian peninsula and used that with methods of interpretation and reasoning to form judgments thats.. Imam Shafi' wanted to authenticate a hadith and Imam Ahmad gathered a bigger Muwatta than Imam Malik apparent so there is less room for opinions and more rulings.. ofc he had his way of approaching the ruling

but there is a reason why there are only 4 schools of thoughts.. its becuz scholars unanimously agree that they are best standard of islamic law that is present

this doesn't divide Muslims honestly it just gives you lenses of some of the best scholarly lenses to to look at Islamic law from.. and these have evolved as time went on corrected as hadith and Quran prove and disprove things in them

The main issue of diff fence between the 4 schools was this

Imam abu hanifa had less hadith so he used rational judgement more.. but also said that if there is an hadith going against what i said then choose the hadith over me

Imam malik had the standard of people of madina where prophet lived his last days and many sahabah were here.. so he complied hadith of topics and Judged based on the actions of people of Madina

Imam Shafi'i didn't want the customs of people to determine what prophet was so he wanted to verify hadith and actions...he made his school of thought surrounding that.

These are just lenses to look from.. and they exist becuz people have being using and developing upon them in their reigions the imam's didn't comeup with them out of a whim.. they saw a necessity for a view that is more accurate and more suitable for judging rulings in quran and sunnah.

King D WIldfire · Aug 14, 2022

NikaInParis said:

if you’re looking Islamic books use kalamullah.com ; you can find everything (fiqh, seerah, aqeedah, tafsir, Hadith etc.)

Akuma_Law · Aug 14, 2022

This guy is entertaining as hell :gokulaugh:

He’s so proud of his Muslim identity too and doesn’t care about the racists

BleakAsh · Aug 14, 2022

Akuma_Law said:

He's hilarious LOL
arab 101

Kafka Crimson · Aug 14, 2022

Count me in

BleakAsh · Aug 14, 2022

Kafka Crimson said:

Gotta get the Muslims check

iterate the Shahada

Kafka Crimson · Aug 14, 2022

BleakAsh said:

I bear witness that there's no God in this universe except Allah SWT and I bear witness that Muhammad SAW is Allah's messenger.

BleakAsh · Aug 14, 2022

Kafka Crimson said:

W
@Chrono

Dnineboby · Aug 18, 2022

lol I didnt know this was a thing.

comrade said:

@comrade I just read through this whole convo/debate and wanted to say there's some verses on this.

( وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَ مِنَ ٱلْمَآءِ بَشَرًۭا فَجَعَلَهُۥ نَسَبًۭا وَصِهْرًۭا ۗ وَكَانَ رَبُّكَ قَدِيرًۭا )
(And it is He Who has created man from water, and has appointed for him kindred by blood, and kindred by marriage. And your Lord is Ever All-Powerful to do what He wills.) Surah Furqan verse 54

( وَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓا۟ إِنْ هَـٰذَآ إِلَّآ إِفْكٌ ٱفْتَرَىٰهُ وَأَعَانَهُۥ عَلَيْهِ قَوْمٌ ءَاخَرُونَ ۖ فَقَدْ جَآءُو ظُلْمًۭا وَزُورًۭا )
(Those who disbelieve say: "This (the Qur’ân) is nothing but a lie that he (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) has invented, and others have helped him at it. In fact they have produced an unjust wrong (thing) and a lie.) Surah Furqan verse 4

(وَقَالُوٓا۟ أَسَـٰطِيرُ ٱلْأَوَّلِينَ ٱكْتَتَبَهَا فَهِىَ تُمْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِ بُكْرَةًۭ وَأَصِيلًۭا)
(And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has written down: and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon.) Surah Furqan verse 5

(قُلْ أَنزَلَهُ ٱلَّذِى يَعْلَمُ ٱلسِّرَّ فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ ۚ إِنَّهُۥ كَانَ غَفُورًۭا رَّحِيمًۭا)
(Say: "It (this Qur’ân) has been sent down by Him (Allâh) (the Real Lord of the heavens and earth) Who knows the secret of the heavens and the earth. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.") Surah Furqan verse 6

(وَقَالُوا۟ مَالِ هَـٰذَا ٱلرَّسُولِ يَأْكُلُ ٱلطَّعَامَ وَيَمْشِى فِى ٱلْأَسْوَاقِ ۙ لَوْلَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مَلَكٌۭ فَيَكُونَ مَعَهُۥ نَذِيرًا)
( And they say: "Why does this Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) eat food, and walk about in the markets (as we). Why is not an angel sent down to him to be a warner with him?) Surah Furqan verse 7

(ٱنظُرْ كَيْفَ ضَرَبُوا۟ لَكَ ٱلْأَمْثَـٰلَ فَضَلُّوا۟ فَلَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ سَبِيلًۭا)
( See how they coin similitudes for you, so they have gone astray, and they cannot find a (Right) Path.) Surah Furqan verse 9

(وَلَوْ نَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ كِتَـٰبًۭا فِى قِرْطَاسٍۢ فَلَمَسُوهُ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ لَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓا۟ إِنْ هَـٰذَآ إِلَّا سِحْرٌۭ مُّبِينٌۭ)
( And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!) Surah Anaam verse 7

lol I hope I don't start any arguments about religion. btw if anyone wants to see for themselves or are interested you could find everything on quran.com

comrade · Aug 18, 2022

Dnineboby said:

Well, only the first verse seems to attempt the origins of life. But then again, different verses might offer different explanations, which is probably because the Quran was written in a span of many years and consequently, there might appear some contradictions. Apart from some mistakes you can find within the Quran, but which Muslims would never admit to but rather try to rationalize, there is nothing mind blowing in the Quran to be honest. The Quran saying man came from water, doesn't qualify the Quran to be of godly descent, really. That's why mostly only Muslims believe the Quran is a scientific miracle. While somehow science itself doesn't view the Quran as a book of scientific wisdom. Being written vague on purpose, one who believes, obviousy can interpret some scientific miracles into it. Others, who do not believe, won't buy it.

NikaInParis · Aug 18, 2022

comrade said:

For those who won't buy it - wouldn't you agree that a vast majority goes into it with the clear intention and resolve not to take anything they see/read as potential (and I use this respectfully) truth, due to preconcieved notions or bad prior experiences with Islam (or any religion for that matter)?

comrade · Aug 18, 2022

NikaInParis said:

I don't think so, because you can hardly dismiss clear evidence. If, when undergoing a scientific observation, we can say with high certainty, that the information displayed in the Quran offers knowledge humans at that time could not possibly know, you could hate on islam all you want. It's more that even haters would be convinced of the Quran's godly message. I personally cannot attest a message to be miraculous, which leaves too much room for interpratation.