Controversial Powerscalers don't understand One Piece

Do you agree with my position ?


  • Total voters
    35
#1
Edit : Because some people don't seem to differenciate narrative talk and powerscalling :

It seems you've failed to understand why I used Doriki, which is probably my fault : they are a tool for Oda to explain his narrative structure when it comes to the crew's dynamic and how it impact the stories he tells. Nothing else, nothing less, nothing more.

In essence Doriki matters as much as Haki, skill, AdvCoC and Devil fruits : none at all. What matters here is that they were introduced as the one - and once - and only direct and clear measure of one's strength, so to speak. They were a narrative tool for Oda to try and convey the basic idea that Luffy was really the Main Character with all that it entails in the kind of medium one piece is (a shonen manga of the WSJ).

Oda doesn't care about the displays of power from his characters or how they can be interpretated by some members of the readership. For him the top three are set in stone and all the story around flows from it - or at least have to accomodate it, as best it can.

Powerscalers care about who has displayed the most prominent skills with weapon X, whom Haki is superior to whom, whose title crush the others, etc. What I say is that it doesn't matter, and that by using the attempt by Oda to have it understood by his readers, one can better understand his writing and how he envision his magnum opus.

And if it makes One Piece better or worse for one's is up to one's personnal opinion.
Most powerscalers (no matter whom they consider their fave, but it's mostly prevalent among Zoro and Mihawk fans as far as I can tell) don't understand how Oda sees the power dynamics in the crew, not even AFTER he wrote a whole explanation for them back in Enies Lobby with the Doriki.

Lucci : 4 000
Kaku : 2 200
Jabura : 2 180

The other ones are irrelevant here. What's matter is the following facts : the Doriki are calculated in base human form, meaning that Jabura is slightly below Kaku and Lucci extremely ahead of both.

Another fact is that carnivorous Zoans are said to be better suited for battle. Wether or not you consider it a truth or more of rumor, it doesn't change the fact that gaining claws and fangs to fight make it easier to empower the fighting-style of a non-swordman. The gap between transformed Kaku and Jabura thus remains largely the same, both displaying abilities they couldn't or wouldn't use in base form.

Therefore, Enies Lobby was an attempt - which somehow failed because of his readership's lack of comprehension, clearly - by Oda to explains how the future arc's battle would be decided and what it meant for the power dynamic in the crew's top fighters. Luffy fight the strongest, Zoro the 2nd strongest (who is serious), Sanji the third strongest (who is more of a clown/funny character, at least design wise). It was something he had done in Alabasta, kind of muddled by playing with in Skypiea but then always followed in the arcs which have followed Enies Lobby.

It doesn't mean, however, that each arc is a carbon copy of the others but that Oda has a very simple formula he uses, which can be summed as such : Luffy >>> Zoro >= Sanji.

Other characters may be extremely close to them (such as Jinbe currently) but Oda's goal is to have Luffy fight the strongest member of the opposite crew, Zoro the second strongest and Sanji the third strongest. Hence why in Wano Law and Kidd fought with Big Mom, who was the strongest member of another crew, distinct from the Beast Pirates.

Even the fabled Rooftop Five had a clear difference between the captains, who were outclassed but largely able to held their own against two Emperors, and the two vice-captains who were wheezing and panting long before the others, because while they are extremely powerful themselves, they simply don't play in the same legue than Luffy, Kidd and Law.

You could argue that the New World arcs haven't been like that, and you would be both right and wrong. Right because, indeed, on several occasions, Sanji didn't fight the third strongest (Punk Hazard, Dressrosa, Whole Cake Island). However, you'd be wrong because out of those, Sanji fought the strongest one for a time on Punk Hazard (Vergo), with the results that we know - for fairness sake, I must say I'm pretty confident he wouldn't have had such a bad showing if his body hadn't been severely damaged before hand when Nami had it -, was absent from Dressrosa when the fight started and had to flee Totto Land with half the crew, meaning that since Fishman Island, Wano was the first arc with a full crew (Punk Hazard being a mini-arc where there simply wasn't enough opponents for the crew, I don't consider it a full arc, kind of like Zou but with battles, if you will).

And in Wano, again, the formula was respected : Luffy fought Kaido (who was far stronger than King and Queen), Zoro fought the serious one and Sanji the funny one.

Anyone willing to read One Piece without preconception will of course notice that it wasn't always the case. At first, Zoro was more clearly Luffy's equal (just look at Whiskey Peak, the whole fight with Mihawk being basically Zoro's Shanks, going as far as being depicted as a "friend" of Shanks, etc.). Early arcs even had some surprising twist and turns (Hacchi being probably weaker than Kuroobi - or at least far more funny than the latter, which in nowadays' arcs would make him an opponent for Sanji). However, by Little Garden, another arc largely designed to highlight this rivalry, was probably the moment Oda decided that Zoro and Sanji would be real rivals, just like Dorry and Broggy.

But what about the bounties ?

The truth of the matter is that it isn't the exact numbers on it which matters (otherwise Zoro would have been weaker than Robin from Alabasta to Enies Lobby, or than Sanji during Wano) but rather a matter of range. Is your bounty in the low decades ? You're super weak, except if you're a rookie starting in East Blue. It's in the high decades/reach a hundred or even several on Paradise ? You're somewhat strong for a pirate on the first part of Grand Line. If you're bounty is between 500 000 000 and 1 billion you are already a legendary pirate. Above, you're in a very select club of monsters who could pretend to someday become an Emperor.

Above 2 billion, you are an Emperor or at least on their level in term of fighting abilities (Buggy not being concerned by it, of course).

Does it mean that Oda is great or terrible because he clings to this formula and makes sure it remains true no matter what power-ups are needed by the characters for it to remain in place ? The answer depends on everyone's opinion about what the core of One Piece is. For me, it's not the combat so the crew's dynamics remaining largely the same is perfect for me. For someone who considers battles to be the main attraction of One Piece, of course the answer would be vastly different.

But it doesn't change the fact that most discussions about powerscalling or some theories (ZKK most notably but it isn't the only one) can be pretty firmly debunked when one consider One Piece through those very simple lenses : Luffy >>> Zoro >= Sanji.
 
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#5
In a simple way. Luffy > Zoro > Sanji was always the case and anybody who believes this will change is out of his mind.

The real problem is that there are few Zoro fans who trully believes that he is equal to Luffy but the majority of Sanji fans cannot accept the fact that he will be in the 3rd place in the crew no matter what and they desperately trying to downgrade Zoro's opponents.
 
#7
"Powerscalers don't understand One Piece"
*Proceeds to powerscale*

Don't worry, we will help you understand One Piece
The irony of saying that power scalers dont understand what they are doing and then bringing up doriki... :crazwhat:
It seems you've failed to understand why I used Doriki, which is probably my fault : they are a tool for Oda to explain his narrative structure when it comes to the crew's dynamic and how it impact the stories he tells. Nothing else, nothing less, nothing more.

In essence Doriki matters as much as Haki, skill, AdvCoC and Devil fruits : none at all. What matters here is that they were introduced as the one - and once - and only direct and clear measure of one's strength, so to speak. They were a narrative tool for Oda to try and convey the basic idea that Luffy was really the Main Character with all that it entails in the kind of medium one piece is (a shonen manga of the WSJ).

Oda doesn't care about the displays of power from his characters or how they can be interpretated by some members of the readership. For him the top three are set in stone and all the story around flows from it - or at least have to accomodate it, as best it can.

Powerscalers care about who has displayed the most prominent skills with weapon X, whom Haki is superior to whom, whose title crush the others, etc. What I say is that it doesn't matter, and that by using the attempt by Oda to have it understood by his readers, one can better understand his writing and how he envision his magnum opus.

And if it makes One Piece better or worse for one's is up to one's personnal opinion.
 
#9
There's a reason why Luffy almost died to Lucci after using both G2 and G3 and was out for many days while both Zoro and Sanji took a shit on their opponents as soon as they used their PUs.

Nevermind pretending that Oda made Jyabura explicitly say Dorikis don't mean much outside of strength for no reason.

Your logic is literally reddit. Dumbing down manga and ignoring statements Oda explicitly put in is bad. Specially with bounties, when Oda went out of his way to talk about inflations.
 
#10
In a simple way. Luffy > Zoro > Sanji was always the case and anybody who believes this will change is out of his mind.

The real problem is that there are few Zoro fans who trully believes that he is equal to Luffy but the majority of Sanji fans cannot accept the fact that he will be in the 3rd place in the crew no matter what and they desperately trying to downgrade Zoro's opponents.
Which is something which always bugged me (both cases mind). Yes Sanji is weaker than Zoro... in the same way than 5000 is lower than 5005. Is it really that impactful ? To me it doesn't seem to be the case. And it focus on a matter of ranking in prowesses when what matters is how Oda will craft stories around that fact.

Being angry because Oda have Sanji fighting weaker opponents than Zoro is dumb. Being angry because his fights sucks is perfectly valid, basically.
 
#13
The difference b/w power scalers and the people who pretend to understand the manga is that proper power scalers don't just look at Doriki numbers and then completely ignore Jabra's statement about what Doriki actually represents.
And what I'm saying is that what Jabura says about the Doriki is irrelevant, because what matters is what Oda wanted the Doriki to be, ie an indicator of how he sees the crew's dynamics. He could have used apples and bananas, it would have amounted to the same (if in a less obvious way).

Of course battle prowesses are not tied to Doriki. That's the point of it all : Oda doesn't build up his dynamics and stories about the strength and growth of his characters. He does make them grow in strength to fit the stories and dynamics he wants to have.

If, let's say, in the next chapter he reveled that Sanji actually had perfect mastery of AdvCoC it still wouldn't change the fact that Zoro and Luffy would be stronger than him, even without displaying new abilities and any Sanji Kicks Shanks theory wouldn't hold water based on the narrative structure Oda uses.

Displays of power, feats, all of those are like Doriki. Irrelevant to determine the strength of someone, because what matters is not the intradiegetic events but the extradiegetic choices of Oda.
 
#19
*Makes thread on why powerscaling is bad
*proceeds to powerscale
You need to read about powerscalling if you can't see the difference between a talk about the narrative structure and the power of the characters...

What this thread is about, using the Doriki because they are the clearest tool Oda used to convey that message, is that strength comes not from events in the story, but from choices from Oda from which he won't deviate. Doriki were his attemps to set in stone that there was a hierarchy in the crew which wouldn't change, and that theories which basically state "in Elbaf Usopp will become stronger than X" are plain wrong because of it. Not because it couldn't happen, but because it wouldn't fit the narrative Oda is pursuing.

That's why even a fruit like the bari bari no mi matters absolutely not. On paper it seems like a broken fruit, impervious to any attack. Having it would make one of the strongest fighter out there, if the story revolved on such things.

Except that it doesn't, because it doesn't matter narratively. It stopped Oden's slash because it's what mattered narratively, but Bartolomeo can't use it to defeat an Emperor, basically.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#20
You need to read about poerscalling if you can't see the difference between a talk about the narrative structure and the power of the characters...

What this thread is about, using the Doriki because they are the clearest tool Oda used to convey that message, is that strength comes not from events in the story, but from choices from Oda from which he won't deviate. Doriki were his attemps to set in stone that there was a hierarchy in the crew which wouldn't change, and that theories which basically state "in Elbaf Usopp will become stronger than X" are plain wrong because of it.

That's why even a fruit like the bari bari no mi matters absolutely not. On paper it seems like a broken fruit, impervious to any attack. Having it would make one of the strongest fighter out there, if the story revolved on such things.

Except that it doesn't, because it doesn't matter narratively. It stopped Oden's slash because it's what mattered narratively, but Bartolomeo can't use it to defeat an Emperor, basically.
Luffy has advanced coc
Advanced coa
Advanced coo

Zoro has Advanced coc
Advanced coa


Sanji has ....
Basic haki


But Doriki !
 
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