Controversial Powerscalers don't understand One Piece

[M944]

True Lucci was far than twice stronger than kaku and kabra
It's at least 5 times

 

[Uncle Van]

Yes but zoans give strength boosts even in human form right?
Along with endurance regen stamina and so on

We only saw that for Ancient Zoans and mythical zoans.

 

[U c 4 up da idly]

The gap between Luffy, Zoro and sanji was pretty small the pacifista fight showed that they're all comparable

 

[Peroroncino]

Not normal zoans, Lucci only said this when he went into his hybrid form

Strength is an athletic ability though

 

[Gol D. Roger]

Imo jabura mentioned it because he had a df that buffs up his stats making him stronger. It was his cope that Kaku was stronger than him

Yes, that's why he said what he said, but he wasn't wrong. We know for a fact that Zoans increase your physical stats to a crazy level: They increase raw physical power; make you more durable; increase endurance; sometimes make you faster; give you additional tools like claws, horns, and dentition. All of this play a role in determining how strong a Zoan user is. So we can't sit here and act like base physical strength is all that matter. Kaku, for instance, has a fruit that'd give him a way better physical boost than Lucci and Jabra, which in turn results in decreasing the gap b/w Kaku and Lucci and increasing the gap b/w Jabra and Kaku in terms of physical strength.

 

[Manos. AsuraZoro]

Yes but zoans give strength boosts even in human form right?
Along with endurance regen stamina and so on

Exactly this.
I wanted to write about this for a long time but i always left it for some reason lol.
Kaido is a perfect example of this.
Him falling from the sky or when he faced Luffy the first time and against the scabbards was in human form and his df ability was working.
The thing is that we don't know how much their abilities are enchanted in human form.
The truth is that people just go blind whatever it works for them.
Even if we ignore those facts, it was quite obvious that jabra and swordless kaku was less than kaku with swords.
I am not hoping for anything, even when queen himself admitted that king is above him, some fans putting him on equal ground with king just because......

 

[U c 4 up da idly]

Yes, that's why he said what he said, but he wasn't wrong. We know for a fact that Zoans increase your physical stats to a crazy level: They increase raw physical power; make you more durable; increase endurance; sometimes make you faster; give you additional tools like claws, horns, and dentition. All of this play a role in determining how strong a Zoan user is. So we can't sit here and act like base physical strength is all that matter. Kaku, for instance, has a fruit that'd give him a way better physical boost than Lucci and Jabra, which in turn results in decreasing the gap b/w Kaku and Lucci and increasing the gap b/w Jabra and Kaku in terms of physical strength.

Since when was it stated that Kaku's fruit gives better physical boost than Lucci and Jabra's fruit?

 

[duckman]

Imagine saying people don't understand powerscaling when you think a Wolf is stronger than a Giraffe

Doriki is literally "Power Level." And it is used seriously by Lucci, not just as a gag even though Lucci earlier pretends not to take notice.

 

[kurohime]

Triggering butthurt fandoms is the best thing to come out of the Fandom side of this manga. So bad faith arguments are the funniest

 

[Shanal]

Doriki is literally "Power Level." And it is used seriously by Lucci, not just as a gag even though Lucci earlier pretends not to take notice.

That's not power-levels, though?

It's literally just strength as explicitly stated. No shit that increasing your body's durability with muscle work would be dependent on strength lol

Lucci says "My Douriki" in the page you posted.

 

[Gol D. Roger]

Since when was it stated that Kaku's fruit gives better physical boost than Lucci and Jabra's fruit?

Huh? It's for the same reason why Dragon fruit gives Kaido the powers of a dragon or King's fruit gives him the powers of a Pteranodon. That's the nature of his devil's fruit. A giraffe is physically far more imposing than a leopard or a wolf. Hence, Kaku gets a boost in physical prowess accordingly just like how Jabra and Lucci get claws and the other tools they get in accordance with the nature of their respective fruits. Of course, the users' potential and physical powers also influence how significant these boosts are, which is why Kaku is still weaker than Lucci despite having a physically superior ability.

 

[Killer#777]

This is why I said narrative and portrayal>feats but anyway this is good shit keep up the good work.

 

[Rkitt]

You say powerscalers don't understand One Piece, but then make a thread about powerlevels. That doesn't make any sense.

From a narrative point of view if you ignore the "powerlevel".

Chapter 5: "The Pirate King & The Master Swordsman". Only crewmate Luffy actually sought out for strength.

Arlong park: Arlong is scared of Zoro's potential because of his face when facing death

Loguetown: Smoker is reminded of the PK when seeing Luffy's face when facing death. Luffy's luck is tested when a lightening bolt comes down with the sword only inches away from his neck. Zoro's luck is tested when he swing the sword up and it just goes around his arm instead of cutting it off clean. Just coincidence guys!!!!!

Post-Arlong: Wait a minute, the guy who luffy said he's surpass in chapter 1 & the guy who Zoro said he's surpass in Baratie... were rivals?

Whiskey Peak: Both Tie

Water 7: Both get put into similar situations that gain similar reactions with the wall stuck & chimney

Ennis Lobby: Zoro being mistakened as the Captain

Ennis Lobby fights: Zoro beats Lucci's inferior Kaku in a mid-diff fight. Luffy vs Lucci goes to a point where Luffy doesn't even win without Franky's interference at the start, and even then went to the point Luffy can't stand up. That shits on the entire "doriki" point of view.

Thriller Bark: Zoro gets his willpower tested by Kuma (Dragon's underling) with enduring all of Luffy's pain, where he's got only a tiny chance of making it out alive.

Saboady: Oh dang Zoro was going to cut up a Celestial Dragon if Bonney didn't step in. Oh dang Luffy punched a Celestial Dragon because nobody came to stop him like Bonney. Pure coincidence. Oh my Zoro isn't treated as your typical right hand man like Killer & Bepo, but instead it's Sanji.

Impel Down: Luffy gets his willpower tested where he's only got a very small chance in making it out alive by another one of Dragon's subordinates, Ivankov.

Timeskip: Whoa both of their training involves directly with learning of Haki. Where they're fighting superior opponent(s) while doing it.

FMI: Whoa Luffy faced off against Zoro's final opponent, and Zoro faced off against Luffy's final opponent before the final fights?

Post-FMI: Is that Zoro challenging Luffy to a competition?

Dressrosa: Is that Zoro saying Luffy should've told him about the tournament, where he would've had to compete against Luffy? Is that Luffy & Zoro who go up against the admiral in the arc at different moments of time?

Start of Wano: Oh Luffy & Zoro having side by side speed moment, sick. Both get their "duo time" before pairing up with the entire squad again.

Wano end of Act 2: Oh wow do my eyes deceive me, it's Zoro & Luffy training near each other related to Haki mastery.. where if they master it, they'd be able to damage Kaido. NO! It certainly can't be!!!

Rooftop of Wano Act 3: Luffy & Zoro doing teamwork in their rooftop fight. Zoro landing the biggest blow on Kaido in that 5 vs 2?! Zoro taking on the biggest attack from the emperors in that 5 vs 2?! It certainly can't be!

Post-Rooftop of Wano act 3: Zoro faces an opponent who's even harder to damage than Kaido?! And despite his condition he manages to cut him up after he gains the power to do it?! Wait a minute, I wonder what would've happened if Zoro got the "reset" against Kaido like Luffy did multiple times, where now he's able to 1 shot somebody who has much more harder to damage than Kaido, when the only reason he struggled against Kaido was because he couldn't damage him properly. I wonder what would happen now.

End of Wano act 3: IT CAN'T BE!!.. Zoro & Luffy are out together side by side for the same amount of time?! Oh no this doesn't mean anything at all.



You can't talk about narrative and powerscaler non-sense, and then make a claim like Luffy >>>> Zoro, which goes against the very narrative Oda has continued to establish since start of the series. That The Pirate King & The Master Swordsman will always be near each other.

Portrayal / narrative is the last thing you want to use if you want to claim Luffy >>> Zoro, stick to "feats only" for that.

 

[Herrera95]

Lucci : 4 000
Kaku : 2 200
Jabura : 2 180

First of all, Kaku Doriki was calculated before his DF. It was said that his power would increase after it. So we don't know how much his Doriki raised because of it and we don't have measures to calculate his full power before his DF and after. His Doriki could have increased almost nothing, could have come close to Lucci, could have being equal to Lucci, could have been higher to Lucci.

One thing about Oda is that he is never clear about things. He always leaves some expeculation to readers because that's what keep us interesting in his work.

Second, Zoro is the one who started fighting Jabra. And he had Usopp nerfing him. And Kaku helping Jabra. So he fought 1v2 while being nerfed until Nami unchained Zoro and Usopp and Sanji came to fight Jabra. And he was fighting equally against them while being nerfed. That means Nerfed Zoro would be at least Jabra + Kaku Doriki. So NERFED Zoro = 4 380 Doriki.

Third, Zoro had much easier fight against Kaku than Sanji against Jabra and of course Luffy against Lucci which only supports him being so much superior to his opponent unlike Sanji and Luffy that were close to them.

 

[Shanal]

This is why I said narrative and portrayal>feats but anyway this is good shit keep up the good work.

Bro your interpretation of narrative thinks Zoro after defeating Mihawk EoS will be on same level as Alabasta Luffy lol

 

[Herrera95]

Above 2 billion, you are an Emperor or at least on their level in term of fighting abilities (Buggy not being concerned by it, of course).

Law and Kid are not Emperor level individually. They are barely Emperor Level working together.

 

[M944]

Joke aside
Doriki was really introduced as a power level standard but only for Enies Lobby

The reason is CP0 who where the ennemies weren't hyped during W7 they had literrally no feats so Oda came with that Idea

It's a quick soluce to hype the remanants CP9 who we never saw and show the Dynamic inside this unity

Also Jabra's sentence got proven wrong we all know Kaku is stronger than him
Not only but he was wrong another time just after when he said no one can eat 2 df

People can't accept (mainly Zoro fans) it because destroyed their headcannons

 

[U c 4 up da idly]

Huh? It's for the same reason why Dragon fruit gives Kaido the powers of a dragon or King's fruit gives him the powers of a Pteranodon. That's the nature of his devil's fruit. A giraffe is physically far more imposing than a leopard or a wolf. Hence, Kaku gets a boost in physical prowess accordingly just like how Jabra and Lucci get claws and the other tools they get in accordance with the nature of their respective fruits. Of course, the users' potential and physical powers also influence how significant these boosts are, which is why Kaku is still weaker than Lucci despite having a physically superior ability.

That is pure headcanon the giraffes physicality was never hyped up only its wierd body

 

[Killer#777]

Bro your interpretation of narrative thinks Zoro after defeating Mihawk EoS will be on same level as Alabasta Luffy lol

Persistent one aren't you lol?

 

[[No Name]]

Edit : Because some people don't seem to differenciate narrative talk and powerscalling :



Most powerscalers (no matter whom they consider their fave, but it's mostly prevalent among Zoro and Mihawk fans as far as I can tell) don't understand how Oda sees the power dynamics in the crew, not even AFTER he wrote a whole explanation for them back in Enies Lobby with the Doriki.

Lucci : 4 000
Kaku : 2 200
Jabura : 2 180

The other ones are irrelevant here. What's matter is the following facts : the Doriki are calculated in base human form, meaning that Jabura is slightly below Kaku and Lucci extremely ahead of both.

Another fact is that carnivorous Zoans are said to be better suited for battle. Wether or not you consider it a truth or more of rumor, it doesn't change the fact that gaining claws and fangs to fight make it easier to empower the fighting-style of a non-swordman. The gap between transformed Kaku and Jabura thus remains largely the same, both displaying abilities they couldn't or wouldn't use in base form.

Therefore, Enies Lobby was an attempt - which somehow failed because of his readership's lack of comprehension, clearly - by Oda to explains how the future arc's battle would be decided and what it meant for the power dynamic in the crew's top fighters. Luffy fight the strongest, Zoro the 2nd strongest (who is serious), Sanji the third strongest (who is more of a clown/funny character, at least design wise). It was something he had done in Alabasta, kind of muddled by playing with in Skypiea but then always followed in the arcs which have followed Enies Lobby.

It doesn't mean, however, that each arc is a carbon copy of the others but that Oda has a very simple formula he uses, which can be summed as such : Luffy >>> Zoro >= Sanji.

Other characters may be extremely close to them (such as Jinbe currently) but Oda's goal is to have Luffy fight the strongest member of the opposite crew, Zoro the second strongest and Sanji the third strongest. Hence why in Wano Law and Kidd fought with Big Mom, who was the strongest member of another crew, distinct from the Beast Pirates.

Even the fabled Rooftop Five had a clear difference between the captains, who were outclassed but largely able to held their own against two Emperors, and the two vice-captains who were wheezing and panting long before the others, because while they are extremely powerful themselves, they simply don't play in the same legue than Luffy, Kidd and Law.

You could argue that the New World arcs haven't been like that, and you would be both right and wrong. Right because, indeed, on several occasions, Sanji didn't fight the third strongest (Punk Hazard, Dressrosa, Whole Cake Island). However, you'd be wrong because out of those, Sanji fought the strongest one for a time on Punk Hazard (Vergo), with the results that we know - for fairness sake, I must say I'm pretty confident he wouldn't have had such a bad showing if his body hadn't been severely damaged before hand when Nami had it -, was absent from Dressrosa when the fight started and had to flee Totto Land with half the crew, meaning that since Fishman Island, Wano was the first arc with a full crew (Punk Hazard being a mini-arc where there simply wasn't enough opponents for the crew, I don't consider it a full arc, kind of like Zou but with battles, if you will).

And in Wano, again, the formula was respected : Luffy fought Kaido (who was far stronger than King and Queen), Zoro fought the serious one and Sanji the funny one.

Anyone willing to read One Piece without preconception will of course notice that it wasn't always the case. At first, Zoro was more clearly Luffy's equal (just look at Whiskey Peak, the whole fight with Mihawk being basically Zoro's Shanks, going as far as being depicted as a "friend" of Shanks, etc.). Early arcs even had some surprising twist and turns (Hacchi being probably weaker than Kuroobi - or at least far more funny than the latter, which in nowadays' arcs would make him an opponent for Sanji). However, by Little Garden, another arc largely designed to highlight this rivalry, was probably the moment Oda decided that Zoro and Sanji would be real rivals, just like Dorry and Broggy.

But what about the bounties ?

The truth of the matter is that it isn't the exact numbers on it which matters (otherwise Zoro would have been weaker than Robin from Alabasta to Enies Lobby, or than Sanji during Wano) but rather a matter of range. Is your bounty in the low decades ? You're super weak, except if you're a rookie starting in East Blue. It's in the high decades/reach a hundred or even several on Paradise ? You're somewhat strong for a pirate on the first part of Grand Line. If you're bounty is between 500 000 000 and 1 billion you are already a legendary pirate. Above, you're in a very select club of monsters who could pretend to someday become an Emperor.

Above 2 billion, you are an Emperor or at least on their level in term of fighting abilities (Buggy not being concerned by it, of course).

Does it mean that Oda is great or terrible because he clings to this formula and makes sure it remains true no matter what power-ups are needed by the characters for it to remain in place ? The answer depends on everyone's opinion about what the core of One Piece is. For me, it's not the combat so the crew's dynamics remaining largely the same is perfect for me. For someone who considers battles to be the main attraction of One Piece, of course the answer would be vastly different.

But it doesn't change the fact that most discussions about powerscalling or some theories (ZKK most notably but it isn't the only one) can be pretty firmly debunked when one consider One Piece through those very simple lenses : Luffy >>> Zoro >= Sanji.

Facts, I don't get your title since this Is Power scaling but you explained well the impression you have while reading It, what Oda wants to tell.
It's so clear, but the one Who separate narrative/portray from Power scaling Will start Say stuff like "Zoro has adv. CoC and then this feat, this other feat, Kidd doesn't"
Kidd Is clearly above Zoro, Oda made a clear hierarchy.

Luffy -> defeating a Yonko, the main one of the saga alone
-
Kidd/Law -> the rivals of Luffy taking out the other Yonko together
-
Zoro -> taking out the right hand man of the main Yonko, the strongest calamity
Sanji -> taking out the other calamity, the second strongest, which portray Is more similar than King than to Jack (Who was bullied by both)
This portray of Zoro and Sanji Is clear, wings of pirate King, Franky saying "Zoro and Sanji are facing calamities" while no other did so.
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Jinbe -> fought the strongest Tobi toppo and defeated with ease
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Robin fought a strong Tobi roppo
Franky same as Robin