[FNZ] Salem of Lies Round 09: Throne of Lies

[Natalija]

What I think happened is this;

Scum hit Flower with an ability last night, forcing her to sus me / do as much as she can to get me lynched.

This has been something I've been hit with in other Mafia games. It's plausible, especially considering how faulty Flower's case is. What seals this isn't the fact you called her out on it, it's that @NeutralWatcher is claiming she's wrong about the enemy faction.

There is no benefit for Flower, if she is Cult, to call me Unseen. Because we stressed how Paladin/Sheriff in these games will be unique to either opponent. Calling anyone Unseen is a red light and tells Invests to speak up / something is wrong.

Worst thing is... I don't trust you, but I think you are right.

There is no benefit for her to do this, because it'd probably get her killed. Which is what the evil faction wants. And then probably get me killed if she is Blue Dragon.
I already made a mistake with Dark Admiral because he looked guilty. :') She looks guilty too :') But alas, next time we play, I promise I will be better.

 

[Finalbeta]

Judging from the way Neutral asserted that Flower is lying because he has got a specific role, he probably has hinted at Paladin, which would indeed put Flower in a corner.

The way Cinera objected NW doesn't convince me much, it looked flimsy since all NW did yesterday was trying to look into DA and why he had mentioned the Unseen.

On top of taking this into account.

 

[krogothwolf]

@krogothwolf Corrected me on this point—neither faction has automatic Day 1 kill. They need to convert to get the kill mechanic.

No matter who is lynched—myself or Flowers—the information is exactly the same. The only reason you have to press a lynch on me in this situation is if you believe Flowers here. Which is becoming less and less believable, considering the claims of two townies which contradicts her on two points. But you ignore that.

Your push on me is way too hard for the information present.

Based on what information I have from drago's setup yeah, the converting faction needs(Unseen if we go by invest results of Neutral) to find a role that provides the killing in this game.

Also if you were Jailed and its similar to ToS Flower couldn't have gotten results from you.

 

[krogothwolf]

Worst thing is... I don't trust you, but I think you are right.

There is no benefit for her to do this, because it'd probably get her killed. Which is what the evil faction wants. And then probably get me killed if she is Blue Dragon.
I already made a mistake with Dark Admiral because he looked guilty. :') She looks guilty too :') But alas, next time we play, I promise I will be better.

There is also the option she was redirect, that is possible in this game as well.

There are a lot of possible things here

(Also don't worry about mistakes, towns always get lynched D1 like 99% of the time)

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

I'm on the phone with a good friend! So sorry for leaving anyone hanging in the thread for a bit!

Worst thing is... I don't trust you, but I think you are right.

There is no benefit for her to do this, because it'd probably get her killed. Which is what the evil faction wants. And then probably get me killed if she is Blue Dragon.
I already made a mistake with Dark Admiral because he looked guilty. :') She looks guilty too :') But alas, next time we play, I promise I will be better.

Well, I'd ask you do trust me if Scum is trying to push me (which they are thru Flower) but I understand. Best to stay on your toes.

But yeah—the push from Flowers makes no sense. I reiterated it a lot, but it seems designed to get me and or Flower killed.

Judging from the way Neutral asserted that Flower is lying because he has got a specific role, he probably has hinted at Paladin, which would indeed put Flower in a corner.

The way Cinera objected NW doesn't convince me much, it looked flimsy since all NW did yesterday was trying to look into DA and why he had mentioned the Unseen.

On top of taking this into account.

What do you feel about my theory Beta? You played a lot of these, so you probably came across this before. Does it look like Flower is being forced into this? No reason for scum to leave such an obvious tell that can be called out on, right?

Based on what information I have from drago's setup yeah, the converting faction needs(Unseen if we go by invest results of Neutral) to find a role that provides the killing in this game.

Also if you were Jailed and its similar to ToS Flower couldn't have gotten results from you.

Yup. Jailed last night and had a brief convo with the Jailer. So any night ability targetting me would be foiled.

Which means Flower didn't.

And Flower's case is full of apparent holes no real scum should make. Which is why I think this is a scum ability forcing Flowers to vote / try to get me lynched or she'll get mod killed.

 

[Reborn]

Good morning you all

I noticed some contradicting posts and some votes already been casted....hmmm

There is definitely one person lying here or is scum but seeing the degree of contradictions I feel there could be two.

I will be making a detail post on that in an hour or so

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Good morning you all

I noticed some contradicting posts and some votes already been casted....hmmm

There is definitely one person lying here or is scum but seeing the degree of contradictions I feel there could be two.

I will be making a detail post on that in an hour or so

I'm very happy you're here, because I think I've made a connection.

 

[Natalija]

I'm very happy you're here, because I think I've made a connection.

The bigger problem is that you are the target of her lie. Either you're very important for Blue Dragon (Prince? Some kind of Support healer?), or this is your idea of making yourself seem like a victim, which I doubt.

Either way I think it's imperative to keep you alive, because Flower and Cinera wanted you dead.

 

[krogothwolf]

I'm on the phone with a good friend! So sorry for leaving anyone hanging in the thread for a bit!

Well, I'd ask you do trust me if Scum is trying to push me (which they are thru Flower) but I understand. Best to stay on your toes.

But yeah—the push from Flowers makes no sense. I reiterated it a lot, but it seems designed to get me and or Flower killed.


What do you feel about my theory Beta? You played a lot of these, so you probably came across this before. Does it look like Flower is being forced into this? No reason for scum to leave such an obvious tell that can be called out on, right?


Yup. Jailed last night and had a brief convo with the Jailer. So any night ability targetting me would be foiled.

Which means Flower didn't.

And Flower's case is full of apparent holes no real scum should make. Which is why I think this is a scum ability forcing Flowers to vote / try to get me lynched or she'll get mod killed.

So there isn't a role that forces people to vote like we did to you in flowers game really.

There is an illusionist/arbiter who makes framed results.

But the problem here is Flower claims to have investigated a jailed person which should be impossible I believe.
And Nat got social/support results from flower.

Nat didn't really fully out herself as inestigator but she did throw it out there that she was, so its possible her results were tampered with, ie redirected. She can't be framed is she detects class.

Flower's results though on TAC with him being jailed is wishy washy.

 

[krogothwolf]

The bigger problem is that you are the target of her lie. Either you're very important for Blue Dragon (Prince? Some kind of Support healer?), or this is your idea of making yourself seem like a victim, which I doubt.

Either way I think it's imperative to keep you alive, because Flower and Cinera wanted you dead.

He was jailed jailor is he prince so he can't be the prince. We can confirm prince exists easily enough D2 to confirm that TAC was jailed since no one else here has claimed jailed yet it does point to him being truthful right now.

 

[Finalbeta]

What do you feel about my theory Beta? You played a lot of these, so you probably came across this before. Does it look like Flower is being forced into this? No reason for scum to leave such an obvious tell that can be called out on, right?

Framing/bus driving is very common in Mafia, not sure if here as well, I imagine yes. From what I gathered still, Neutral probably hinted Paladin, which would mean even in the case scenario Flower was redirected or framed, she would still not find Unseen. She would simply have a different result on a player. And Natalija also claimed a clear result on Flower implying Flower can't invest.

Forcing wise, not sure if there's a role similar as The Witch in ToS, but that shouldn't work in this instance either way. It's a different circumstance.

In Role Madness the impossible becomes possible so something like this could be feasible, but this game has got set roles.

 

[krogothwolf]

Framing/bus driving is very common in Mafia, not sure if here as well, I imagine yes. From what I gathered still, Neutral probably hinted Paladin, which would mean even in the case scenario Flower was redirected or framed, she would still not find Unseen. She would simply have a different result on a player. And Natalija also claimed a clear result on Flower implying Flower can't invest.

Forcing wise, not sure if there's a role similar as The Witch in ToS, but that shouldn't work in this instance either way. It's a different circumstance.

In Role Madness the impossible becomes possible so something like this could be feasible, but this game has got set roles.

Illisionist/Arbiter exist that allows for framing in this game.

 

[Kiwipom]

Bussing this early in the game (especially to a player that wasn't undergoing significant suspicion) is a very big brained move. I think it's more risky when you start out the game with only two players. I do agree that it doesn't confirm Flower as Town, but it would strongly suggest it. Especially if TAC flipped Unseen in particular.

The main caveat to the low expected utility of bussing is that Unseen can convert at night (and they have a maximum number of members), so the calculus on bussing a teammate changes. If you can gain significant Town cred, sacrificing an innocuous teammate is useful.

The counter caveat would be that because of said conversion mechanics, gaining long term credibility is not a thing. Bussing a teammate gains you Town cred for maybe a day or two, but you can be converted, so you can't expect anyone to Town read you because you earlier bussed a Teammate.

One of the scenarios in which bussing is rational is when the Scum faction has reached their maximum number of members (thus, they can't convert anymore members until they lose one), but this is clearly not the case as Scum would have made at most 1 Convert by now.

Just like Beta said, Flower played a similar game in ToS before. Her scum meta is one that is willing to be taking risks.
Plus we have three players vouching against her claims. Something is really off about her.

I still think her and TAC might be buddies.

Her actions could have been redirected. I agree that a newbie challenging a claim right of the bat would be very surprising if they didn't have reasons to doubt the claim.

That could be possible. But with NW and TAC's affirmations that Flower's claims are wrong, it is most likely that Natalija is saying the truth about Flower lying.

Hitherto unknown in these bountiful lands has been a criminal as miserable as Queen dowager @Kiwipom . For whom I withhold not but endless malice which burns hotter than a spurned son! Hereforth I declare, as chief physician of these lands that thy monarch is but wicked and unright! In body and mind, she is corrupted thoroughly! The cruelty shown to thee’s loyal subjects of whom wish to do no further than seek adoration reveals her hideous nature! I take umbrage with this tyrant for whom we have tolerated and her cadre of dopeless lackeys of Finalbeta, Queen and Cinera, for whom we can only assume has such lofty goals as removing our heads and sowing our lands with chaos! Nay! Nay I say! We shan’t be kept in such isolated doom, for I propose hope! Hope beyond the menace of Kiwipom the Cruel and the abysmal evils that fester under her treacherous tenure! For the wise and ever clear minded Al Sama is here, for whom I shall follow and name King! King of our kingdom and King of all Kings, for who all others of the Blue Dragon, mine own guild of great worship, shall follow! Beleaguered our hope may be by thyn cruel masters and forces of chaos, further strained via the foul maiden Flowa’s reads of which reek of morning manure, there be not darkness for the kingdom of the Blue Dragon! Our destiny is greater still, with which we shall claim through hands of justice! Follow me now, further into victory and cast away these chains of oppression and let not our eyes be cast towards the temptations of our vile monarch!

Off with your head, peasant.

FYI, AL is subbing out.

I was jailed last night—so anyone investigating me should probably receive "your target was jailed" message, no? I'm not entirely clear, but if it operates like Town of Salem, then that should be the conclusion drawn.


Also, @Cinera feels awfully scummy to me. He's jumping on lynching me very quickly and defending Flowa despite two other players coming out to contradict Flower's statements independently. One who claims to have looked into Flowers and another who debates Flower's entire accusation. Why Cinera believes I am the ideal lynch to validate a liar is beyond me. If anything, lynching Flower's gives us three pieces of info;

• Whether or not we have Unseen/Cult (via her role, if she is invest)
• Whether or not I am scum
• Whether or not @Natalija is scum (based on her statements about Flowa's role)
• Whether or not @NeutralWatcher is scum (based on his statements of our opposing faction)

And considering the mounting evidence that contradicts Flowers, it's baffling to see Cinera sit there and suggest I am the proper lynch.

My conclusion for this phase is thoroughly this;

Flowers is either being pressured via some ability to call me scummy. It's not unusual to see abilities in game that force a player to be very suspicious of another. I.E., if our scum faction has an ability that compels Flowers to do everything in her power to lynch me or she gets mod killed.

Flowers is jester.

Flowers is scum and is somehow thinking this is a good push. IMO, I think her push is weak and for an experienced player it doesn't make sense for her to state such a claim. I suppose she was hoping no one would have looked into her like

@Natalija claimed to? But even then—surely spouting out that I belong to a wrong faction would alert the proper investigators of what's wrong. I.E., calling me Unseen if we have Cult (which @NeutralWatcher seems to be suggesting heavily we do) is a horrible move for any scum to pull.

It is my opinion that Flowers could be town that is being forced to sus me / work her damndest to get me lynched for this player phase. What has me suspicious is how @Cinera throws logic to the wind and immediately supports her despite the controversial methods and contradictions surrounding Flowers.

I don't like how quickly you are dismissing Flower's claims against you. If she was put under some type of post restriction, she has no reason to claim an invest role. There's plenty of ways to push for someone's lynch.

If she really is invest and was put under a restriction (and assuming that you are town), then she has no reason to push for your lynch by asserting herself as invest because when you flip town, that will make her lose all credibility. She would of essentially thrown her role down a well.

If she isn't invest and was forced to lynch you, she also has no reason to claim invest for this push.

So this claim of being invest is genuine by her. And by itself is already telling me that she is scummy, especially since you said you were jailed.

The only possibility is like you said that she is jester.

Tac was jailed he said, is that a blue dragon role?

Yes. That is the role of the Prince. Assuming that it follows the role according to the Wikia, the Prince shouldn't be allowed to kill at night until N3

Choose target player to imprison tonight, occupying those targeting your prisoner. At night, you may interrogate them via chat. Usable day 1.

• Can only jail the same player 3x.
• Cannot target King.

Execute Night3Execute the jailed player. If they are Blue Dragon, lose all charges of Execute. Not usable until Night 3.

This is a very powerful role and I will strongly suggest whoever the Prince is, to not out yourself unless if TAC too is lying about his claims of being jailed.

Well, I'd ask you do trust me if Scum is trying to push me (which they are thru Flower) but I understand. Best to stay on your toes.

But yeah—the push from Flowers makes no sense. I reiterated it a lot, but it seems designed to get me and or Flower killed.

You're siding with Flower too easily imo.
Almost like if this was preplanned.

 

[krogothwolf]

Just like Beta said, Flower played a similar game in ToS before. Her scum meta is one that is willing to be taking risks.
Plus we have three players vouching against her claims. Something is really off about her.

I still think her and TAC might be buddies.



That could be possible. But with NW and TAC's affirmations that Flower's claims are wrong, it is most likely that Natalija is saying the truth about Flower lying.

Off with your head, peasant.

FYI, AL is subbing out.


I don't like how quickly you are dismissing Flower's claims against you. If she was put under some type of post restriction, she has no reason to claim an invest role. There's plenty of ways to push for someone's lynch.

If she really is invest and was put under a restriction (and assuming that you are town), then she has no reason to push for your lynch by asserting herself as invest because when you flip town, that will make her lose all credibility. She would of essentially thrown her role down a well.

If she isn't invest and was forced to lynch you, she also has no reason to claim invest for this push.

So this claim of being invest is genuine by her. And by itself is already telling me that she is scummy, especially since you said you were jailed.

The only possibility is like you said that she is jester.



Yes. That is the role of the Prince. Assuming that it follows the role according to the Wikia, the Prince shouldn't be allowed to kill at night until N3



This is a very powerful role and I will strongly suggest whoever the Prince is, to not out yourself unless if TAC too is lying about his claims of being jailed.


You're siding with Flower too easily imo.
Almost like if this was preplanned.

If its similar to ToS with a faction chat there's a possiblity that if TAC and Flower are buddies one knew the other was jailed and they're playing a high risk/reward game here. Is that what you think might be happening?

Flower being outted doesnt confirm TAC as being safe though. Since Jailor doesn't get results beside what jailed will say to them.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

@Kiwipom I'm saying we shouldn't lynch Flower because the same thing happened to me in another game, as @krogothwolf (the bastard he is for doing that to me) stated. I'm suspicious because Flower's push makes no sense to me. Why would she push me and claim the opposite enemy faction, knowing TI is set up for specific factions? It's only going to be caught.

Unless Flower legit thought that would work out in her favor. But... I can't see it. It's too dumb of a move for an experienced player like Flower to make.

 

[Natalija]

I... I will just let you guys get to the bottom of this

All of that still doesn't explain Cinera logic.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

So it's not an established role / mechanic in this game for something like that to happen, according to @krogothwolf. We can tentatively scratch that off as the reasons for her trying to lynch me. Jester or scum would be the most prominent, but I still find Cinera's push on me (and a Hell of a push it was) very suspicious.

 

[krogothwolf]

So it's not an established role / mechanic in this game for something like that to happen, according to @krogothwolf. We can tentatively scratch that off as the reasons for her trying to lynch me. Jester or scum would be the most prominent, but I still find Cinera's push on me (and a Hell of a push it was) very suspicious.

You think she's the fool and is trying to get herself lynched because fools are assholes?

(also it was funny in that game doing that to you.)

 

[krogothwolf]

I... I will just let you guys get to the bottom of this

All of that still doesn't explain Cinera logic.

No one can ever explain cinera logic.

 

[Kiwipom]

If its similar to ToS with a faction chat there's a possiblity that if TAC and Flower are buddies one knew the other was jailed and they're playing a high risk/reward game here. Is that what you think might be happening?

Flower being outted doesnt confirm TAC as being safe though. Since Jailor doesn't get results beside what jailed will say to them.

Alright, it didn't occur to me that if TAC and Flower were scum, Flower would of known that TAC was jailed.

I'll have to evaluate a bit about the bussing thing. But I am still leaning towards believing that they're both scum and that Flower is playing some type of high risk game.

@Kiwipom I'm saying we shouldn't lynch Flower because the same thing happened to me in another game, as @krogothwolf (the bastard he is for doing that to me) stated. I'm suspicious because Flower's push makes no sense to me. Why would she push me and claim the opposite enemy faction, knowing TI is set up for specific factions? It's only going to be caught.

Unless Flower legit thought that would work out in her favor. But... I can't see it. It's too dumb of a move for an experienced player like Flower to make.

She has no reason to claim invest and claim fake result if she was put under a restriction.