General & Others The Problem With Post Timeskip
- Thread starter Uncle Van
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Alot of that just comes down to the shit "shonen" expectations people have of One Piece in general.
In terms of OPs post, a lot of post timeskip complaints are things I see and are generally merited, however alot of it has to do with Oda actually saving those characters, moments, powers, etc.
A big example is Ace vs. Blackbeard or the Revo's vs Admirals. Yes, Ace v. BB it showed off a signficant portion of the fight before the rest was offscreened for plot purposes, however, Ace was eventually poised to die, meaning that if he didn't have this moment, he'd have almost no action scenes in the entire series save for the point where he was introduced to the point where he died. Subsequently Oda showed off BBs powers because soon after he gained a 2nd devil fruit.
The Revolutionaries are sure to be a signficant portion of the ending/final war. So are the Admirals. What do we possibly gain from Oda blowing his load before we see how surprising or amazing these characters can be shown during actual battles in the future?
That's the entire difference between Pre and Post timeskip mainly. Pre timeskip delt with things on an arc by arc basis, having few things actually set up the future (really just Ace vs. BB or Shanks vs. Whitebeard). Post timeskip changed because it deals with all of these parties being setup for something massive in the end, or the fact that every arc seems to segue into an additional arc.
You didn't get the Aokiji vs. Akainu fight because we will see them fight eventually individually. You didn't see the payback war because we will see the former WB pirates and BB pirates fight on their own at other points (hell, WB pirates are likely to be in Wano with Neko soon). You didn't see Sabo and Fuji fight, just like youdidn't see the Revo's vs. Admirals for the same reasons.
It will all happen in due time, but the problem is people want it now. And because OP is so massive, the complaints are surely warranted because it takes so long for a tease to payoff.
Basically I get the complaints but it doesn't make post timeskip worse when you know it's eventually coming.
In terms of OPs post, a lot of post timeskip complaints are things I see and are generally merited, however alot of it has to do with Oda actually saving those characters, moments, powers, etc.
A big example is Ace vs. Blackbeard or the Revo's vs Admirals. Yes, Ace v. BB it showed off a signficant portion of the fight before the rest was offscreened for plot purposes, however, Ace was eventually poised to die, meaning that if he didn't have this moment, he'd have almost no action scenes in the entire series save for the point where he was introduced to the point where he died. Subsequently Oda showed off BBs powers because soon after he gained a 2nd devil fruit.
The Revolutionaries are sure to be a signficant portion of the ending/final war. So are the Admirals. What do we possibly gain from Oda blowing his load before we see how surprising or amazing these characters can be shown during actual battles in the future?
That's the entire difference between Pre and Post timeskip mainly. Pre timeskip delt with things on an arc by arc basis, having few things actually set up the future (really just Ace vs. BB or Shanks vs. Whitebeard). Post timeskip changed because it deals with all of these parties being setup for something massive in the end, or the fact that every arc seems to segue into an additional arc.
You didn't get the Aokiji vs. Akainu fight because we will see them fight eventually individually. You didn't see the payback war because we will see the former WB pirates and BB pirates fight on their own at other points (hell, WB pirates are likely to be in Wano with Neko soon). You didn't see Sabo and Fuji fight, just like youdidn't see the Revo's vs. Admirals for the same reasons.
It will all happen in due time, but the problem is people want it now. And because OP is so massive, the complaints are surely warranted because it takes so long for a tease to payoff.
Basically I get the complaints but it doesn't make post timeskip worse when you know it's eventually coming.
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I didnt say its a good thread because of his BB-Ace example. We all know off-paneling fights is an issue. What I liked more is how the OP compared Paulie and Kyros.
I dont mind Kyros' character, he is okay, but I like Paulie more. Probably most OP fans echoes this sentiment:
(1) After so many years, Paulie is 100 in the 6th popularity poll and Kyros is 138 after playing a big role in Dressrosa arc.
(2) Pauli was 5th in a poll: "Who people want for a protagonist in the special short story?" above the likes of Whitebeard and Mihawk.
Paulie's reaction was so genuine when he found out traitors among his nakama. I will take that moment over all the melodrama related to Kyros's flashbacks. Paulie's scope and potential was limited compared to Kyros, and he fulfilled his role perfectly. The main strawhats can shine more when they are supported by such relatable characters who are only human.
Oda tried really hard to create a direct emotional storyline for Kyros and Rebecca through his flashbacks, which at least didnt work for me.
I cant remember the relation and interaction between Kyros and the strawhats. In case of Paulie, I can at least remember him telling Nami to cover up! With Kyros, it almost felt like he was created to outshine the strawhats, not to support their development, a totally isolated entity from the original story. As OP pointed out:
I dont mind Kyros' character, he is okay, but I like Paulie more. Probably most OP fans echoes this sentiment:
(1) After so many years, Paulie is 100 in the 6th popularity poll and Kyros is 138 after playing a big role in Dressrosa arc.
(2) Pauli was 5th in a poll: "Who people want for a protagonist in the special short story?" above the likes of Whitebeard and Mihawk.
Paulie's reaction was so genuine when he found out traitors among his nakama. I will take that moment over all the melodrama related to Kyros's flashbacks. Paulie's scope and potential was limited compared to Kyros, and he fulfilled his role perfectly. The main strawhats can shine more when they are supported by such relatable characters who are only human.
Oda tried really hard to create a direct emotional storyline for Kyros and Rebecca through his flashbacks, which at least didnt work for me.
I cant remember the relation and interaction between Kyros and the strawhats. In case of Paulie, I can at least remember him telling Nami to cover up! With Kyros, it almost felt like he was created to outshine the strawhats, not to support their development, a totally isolated entity from the original story. As OP pointed out:
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I see your point, but is not a bit stupid to critisize something that it's not over... I'll rather wait until it's over, to do it for real, I like pre-ts though it's to soon to be judgy, I really disliked One Piece until W7... If I wouldn't continue reading it, my opinion would be pointless... As pointless as it yous now 
we follow Luffys story. the side characters are just meant to show the emotional impact on a selected few.
Luffy never asks about backstory. Luffy does not care. only we viewers get to know this.
wether there is payoff at the end or not for the sidecharacters does not matter. its a tangent at best.
revo army fighting in Marie Geoisie is irrelevant for Luffy. only the outcomes has impact on his story so its the only thing we need to know.
fights do not matter. this applies to all the other off panel fights aswell.
if this is what you want to see first and foremost then OP is the wrong manga for you.
bottom line.
post skip suffers from impatient readers with false expectations.
Luffy never asks about backstory. Luffy does not care. only we viewers get to know this.
wether there is payoff at the end or not for the sidecharacters does not matter. its a tangent at best.
revo army fighting in Marie Geoisie is irrelevant for Luffy. only the outcomes has impact on his story so its the only thing we need to know.
fights do not matter. this applies to all the other off panel fights aswell.
if this is what you want to see first and foremost then OP is the wrong manga for you.
bottom line.
post skip suffers from impatient readers with false expectations.
I have a problem with the pacing of Post time skip.
Fights are dragged on for too long.
multiple flashbacks in one arc, some of them good and do the job, some of them just meh. I never cared about or was super into the big mom backstory and the scarabs/oden flashbacks, decent but just wasn't my thing.
lots of inconclusive and incomplete plot points, some get resolved, some don't and are just forgotten. We don't know what happened to the vinsmokes. Jinbe was left with a cliff hanger back in WCI, but then reappeared in Wano like noting happened, no explanation whatsoever, so why didn't he leave with the straw hats in the first place? I know jinbe stayed to help the sun pirates but Oda could have done something different.
Lots of false hype that end up becoming nothing impressive(although this i feel like has more to do with the fans expecting too much rather than Oda showing too little). Bobbins first mate, judge top 5, sanji vs katakuri, big mom downfall, the list goes on. All of these were hyped to hell but never happened, waste of time.
A lot of stuffed are happening in the background but never shown or revealed, a lot of new stuff introduced but only teased and not explained. The big straw hat, teased rocks D xebec but we didn't even see his real face in a flashback. Sabo infiltrated the Reverie, don't know if he personally fought Fujitora or Greenbull of if he was captured or killed. Is burgess still alive and still on Baltigo? What happened to Moria? Who the hell is Imu and why should I care? What happened to Vivi's Papa. Why does Bonney care about Kuma, and how the hell did she even escape from Akainu? Pound is alive. Why? Didn't we see Oven execute him and there was blood???
Endless mysteries, but also endless unanswered questions.
All of this can just become tiring after a while.
Now the only thing im looking forward to the Wano arc are the fights and post arc bounty updates. Pretimeskip arcs like skypiea and water 7 i was more invested in the island's history and lore, and the backstories and conflicts of the new characters. Skypiea and the golden bell, franky/cutty flam relationship, thriller bark and brook's past were all great. Some of the stuff in Wano have been meh, didn't care about Kinemon's tease of the unrevealed sccarabs, oden's flashback was too long and didn't change my indiffrent opinion to him. kanjuro's betrayal was a surprise, but kinemon didn't finish him off and now he's lost. I still don't give a crap about Momonosuke. I like the beast pirates more than the scarrabs.
Fights are dragged on for too long.
multiple flashbacks in one arc, some of them good and do the job, some of them just meh. I never cared about or was super into the big mom backstory and the scarabs/oden flashbacks, decent but just wasn't my thing.
lots of inconclusive and incomplete plot points, some get resolved, some don't and are just forgotten. We don't know what happened to the vinsmokes. Jinbe was left with a cliff hanger back in WCI, but then reappeared in Wano like noting happened, no explanation whatsoever, so why didn't he leave with the straw hats in the first place? I know jinbe stayed to help the sun pirates but Oda could have done something different.
Lots of false hype that end up becoming nothing impressive(although this i feel like has more to do with the fans expecting too much rather than Oda showing too little). Bobbins first mate, judge top 5, sanji vs katakuri, big mom downfall, the list goes on. All of these were hyped to hell but never happened, waste of time.
A lot of stuffed are happening in the background but never shown or revealed, a lot of new stuff introduced but only teased and not explained. The big straw hat, teased rocks D xebec but we didn't even see his real face in a flashback. Sabo infiltrated the Reverie, don't know if he personally fought Fujitora or Greenbull of if he was captured or killed. Is burgess still alive and still on Baltigo? What happened to Moria? Who the hell is Imu and why should I care? What happened to Vivi's Papa. Why does Bonney care about Kuma, and how the hell did she even escape from Akainu? Pound is alive. Why? Didn't we see Oven execute him and there was blood???
Endless mysteries, but also endless unanswered questions.
All of this can just become tiring after a while.
Now the only thing im looking forward to the Wano arc are the fights and post arc bounty updates. Pretimeskip arcs like skypiea and water 7 i was more invested in the island's history and lore, and the backstories and conflicts of the new characters. Skypiea and the golden bell, franky/cutty flam relationship, thriller bark and brook's past were all great. Some of the stuff in Wano have been meh, didn't care about Kinemon's tease of the unrevealed sccarabs, oden's flashback was too long and didn't change my indiffrent opinion to him. kanjuro's betrayal was a surprise, but kinemon didn't finish him off and now he's lost. I still don't give a crap about Momonosuke. I like the beast pirates more than the scarrabs.
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Yeah, often when talking about the quality of OP people refer to the entire series as if it is all at the same standard as pre timeskip. Which is interesting cause this same standard doesn't apply to series like Naruto which in its prime was just as good, if not better than OP.
Whilst the actual story post timeskip is more "hype" as we're finally fighting yonko and major factions in the world are moving and changing, the actual quality of the plot has taken a nosedive.
The series has got too big and lost a lot of what made it special in the first place. A tremendous lack of emotion, poor pacing, increased off panelling, hardly any crew interactions (and when there are, they're often poorly placed), weak supporting characters, etc.
Oda was capable of achieving much, much better in far less time, with far fewer characters. It's no secret that Oda reuses arc structures, simply reskinning old arcs but changing themes and characters around. So why is it that the reskinned copy is so much worse than the original? Guess working on a single thing for 20+ years naturally takes its toll.
Pre timeskip OP is like a 9/10 compared to post timeskip which is like a 5/10.
Whilst the actual story post timeskip is more "hype" as we're finally fighting yonko and major factions in the world are moving and changing, the actual quality of the plot has taken a nosedive.
The series has got too big and lost a lot of what made it special in the first place. A tremendous lack of emotion, poor pacing, increased off panelling, hardly any crew interactions (and when there are, they're often poorly placed), weak supporting characters, etc.
Oda was capable of achieving much, much better in far less time, with far fewer characters. It's no secret that Oda reuses arc structures, simply reskinning old arcs but changing themes and characters around. So why is it that the reskinned copy is so much worse than the original? Guess working on a single thing for 20+ years naturally takes its toll.
Pre timeskip OP is like a 9/10 compared to post timeskip which is like a 5/10.
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One of my biggest problems with Post TS is how Law is overshadowing and getting a ton more panel time than the crew. Don’t get me wrong, I like Law, but he’s not a SH and there’s no reason he should get more spotlight and panel time than our “main characters”, if you can even call them that anymore.
I think most people just got bored with One Piece cause the themes are similar, so it became repetitive
I remember always disliking Vivi, never once have I cared for her, hated Camie, hated the blonde bimbo from Skypiea, hated the little mantra girl
I don't like Oden either, but he's better than Dalton or Wiper
Shitenmaru & Denjiro are better than Iceburg & the rope guy working for iceburg
Fishman Island sucked imo, Arlong was better, other than that I prefer post timeskip
I remember always disliking Vivi, never once have I cared for her, hated Camie, hated the blonde bimbo from Skypiea, hated the little mantra girl
I don't like Oden either, but he's better than Dalton or Wiper
Shitenmaru & Denjiro are better than Iceburg & the rope guy working for iceburg
Fishman Island sucked imo, Arlong was better, other than that I prefer post timeskip
Excellent topic!!!
I'll be real, my main issue with Post-TS One Piece is that there are just,,, too many characters. And only a handful of them are interesting.
It pretty much started in Dressrosa, where we suddenly had so many fights and storylines happening at the same time and constantly switched from one character's perspective to the next that some conclusions felt... well, underwhelming in my opinion.
Another issue I personally have is the overuse of tropes and twists you can see coming from a mile away xD Best example imo is the Komurasaki and Kyoshiro reveal. I mean to be fair, the first wasn't really a twist since it's been hinted at forever, but still.... the way it was build up/hyped made the actual reveal feel kind of underwhelming to me, since it was pretty predictable.
Personally I also think Oda isn't writing characters the way he used to anymore. Especially in Oden's case I felt that he was trying way too hard to get fans to like him (whether it be by characters giving patronizing speeches about his greatness, or having the MC crying over his tragic backstory)
And talking of which,,,, sometimes it also feels like Oda isn't really thinking certain storyplots through or just settles for underwhelming conclusions. My favorite example of that is Pudding, who worked pretty well as twist-villain until suddenly she gets a sad backstory to justify all of her terrible behaviour and is played as supportive side-character. Given how it was never even remotely hinted that she was redeemable or had body-issues because of her third eye, it really felt like Oda wasn't originally planning to turn her character around. And to be frank, the way he did it was also extremely cheap and unbelievable. (I could rant about just her/the fall of the second half of WCI and how underdeveloped it felt for hours bcause OH BOI do I have strong feelings about it, but this probably ain't the place lol)
Pre-TS usually had rather small casts with clear storylines and most things were happening in a linear order, which made the fights more entertaining and engaging. Now One Piece feels a little all over the place, especially when it suddenly brings in NEW PLOTLINES outside of the current arc (aka Moria/Blackbeard, Reverie thrown in again...) for a chapter or two and then they're just not mentioned again for an undisclosed amount of time. I get that it's supposed to be hype but tbh One Piece is currently not at the state where it can sustain that kind of hype for long....
So yeah.
I'll be real, my main issue with Post-TS One Piece is that there are just,,, too many characters. And only a handful of them are interesting.
It pretty much started in Dressrosa, where we suddenly had so many fights and storylines happening at the same time and constantly switched from one character's perspective to the next that some conclusions felt... well, underwhelming in my opinion.
Another issue I personally have is the overuse of tropes and twists you can see coming from a mile away xD Best example imo is the Komurasaki and Kyoshiro reveal. I mean to be fair, the first wasn't really a twist since it's been hinted at forever, but still.... the way it was build up/hyped made the actual reveal feel kind of underwhelming to me, since it was pretty predictable.
Personally I also think Oda isn't writing characters the way he used to anymore. Especially in Oden's case I felt that he was trying way too hard to get fans to like him (whether it be by characters giving patronizing speeches about his greatness, or having the MC crying over his tragic backstory)
And talking of which,,,, sometimes it also feels like Oda isn't really thinking certain storyplots through or just settles for underwhelming conclusions. My favorite example of that is Pudding, who worked pretty well as twist-villain until suddenly she gets a sad backstory to justify all of her terrible behaviour and is played as supportive side-character. Given how it was never even remotely hinted that she was redeemable or had body-issues because of her third eye, it really felt like Oda wasn't originally planning to turn her character around. And to be frank, the way he did it was also extremely cheap and unbelievable. (I could rant about just her/the fall of the second half of WCI and how underdeveloped it felt for hours bcause OH BOI do I have strong feelings about it, but this probably ain't the place lol)
Pre-TS usually had rather small casts with clear storylines and most things were happening in a linear order, which made the fights more entertaining and engaging. Now One Piece feels a little all over the place, especially when it suddenly brings in NEW PLOTLINES outside of the current arc (aka Moria/Blackbeard, Reverie thrown in again...) for a chapter or two and then they're just not mentioned again for an undisclosed amount of time. I get that it's supposed to be hype but tbh One Piece is currently not at the state where it can sustain that kind of hype for long....
So yeah.
Think my biggest problem with the post timeskip era is that it coincided with my 20s, a period in which I expected the story I’d been reading since before I was a teenager to grow and mature alongside me. I’m not talking about the diminished focus on childish humor - that’s long been my favorite aspect of One Piece - but the seeming lack of character development. I can’t add much more to your phenomenal opening post, @Van, other than to say it has been HUGELY disappointing that Sanji is as big a pervert as ever even after the humbling experience he had in WCI; Zoro is still a one-note curmudgeon after showing real presence of mind when Usopp left in Water 7; the long nose himself was still cowering with Nami and Chopper as the crew entered Onigashima despite them all having faced Yonko crews in the recent past; Robin and Franky have been almost completely ignored outside of Dressrosa; Brook and Jinbe have had some cool moments, but by virtue of how late they joined the SHP, there’s still a lot of untapped potential for both. It’s difficult to look at these characters, however powerful they might actually be, and see a group that’s poised to topple the Emperors and uncover the true history of the world as they are right now, and it’s getting a little late in the game for them to reasonably improve to the level they need to be at without some real asspulling by the author.
Postskip actually uses the same arc to arc story telling with all the self contained stories in each arc. It's just contained under one giant saga.
Alabasta for example was just a big saga made up of different arcs.
I chose Paulie to compare to Kyros instead of characters like Wiper because I felt Paulie was the perfect example of how to achieve so much with so little using supporting characters. I didnt even know of those polls.
I'm sorry but that's a really dumb and unfair stance to have. Anything is exempt from judgment cause its not finished? That's like saying DBZ cant be judged by anyone cause the series is still ongoing....or that Star Wars as a franchise cant be judged cause there might be more movies.
That's definitely one of Oda's problems, that being he builds up something so much making it impossible to meet expectations, since the results he had in mind wasnt so great to begin with.
As a result, Oda has a lost trust in the reader as he's conditioned them to not expect much. Raizo and Kawamatsu reveals were completely underwhelming and Kanjuro being the traitor flopped hard.
That SHs as a whole has gotten so little attention postskip. Has Nami ever talked about her world map postskip? And as you said, there is no way the lowrt SHs can take on guys like the F6 without some strong plot which shouldn't have been the case. Luffy has been hogging most of the power ups.
Alabasta for example was just a big saga made up of different arcs.
I chose Paulie to compare to Kyros instead of characters like Wiper because I felt Paulie was the perfect example of how to achieve so much with so little using supporting characters. I didnt even know of those polls.
I see your point, but is not a bit stupid to critisize something that it's not over... I'll rather wait until it's over, to do it for real, I like pre-ts though it's to soon to be judgy, I really disliked One Piece until W7... If I wouldn't continue reading it, my opinion would be pointless... As pointless as it yous now
I'm sorry but that's a really dumb and unfair stance to have. Anything is exempt from judgment cause its not finished? That's like saying DBZ cant be judged by anyone cause the series is still ongoing....or that Star Wars as a franchise cant be judged cause there might be more movies.
That's definitely one of Oda's problems, that being he builds up something so much making it impossible to meet expectations, since the results he had in mind wasnt so great to begin with.
As a result, Oda has a lost trust in the reader as he's conditioned them to not expect much. Raizo and Kawamatsu reveals were completely underwhelming and Kanjuro being the traitor flopped hard.
That SHs as a whole has gotten so little attention postskip. Has Nami ever talked about her world map postskip? And as you said, there is no way the lowrt SHs can take on guys like the F6 without some strong plot which shouldn't have been the case. Luffy has been hogging most of the power ups.
Yes, the focus on the main character's interactions is blurred post time skip. It's lacking and you can feel it, they are hardly ever together, and even when they are, it's hard to combine interactions of so many. But I don't blame the time skip, this already started with Franky for me. Now Franky and Brook just exist for sssssssssuper ~ and insert bone jokes.
A lot of characters are Oda's biggest virtue AND flaw. Sometimes they're a hit, other times they're a miss. But, to say something positive about it: more crew members allows for more balanced team splits, which I enjoy. I enjoy having a Sanji retrieval team, and resting from the others for a while. Then actually missing them and wanting to see them. I like having two plot lines, and it makes me happy when they come together. Might be my inner child, but Zoro and Luffy reuniting in Wano made a bigger smile on my face than on theirs :yasu:
Also, I enjoy an arsenal of new characters like Law, Doffy, Barto, Cavendish, Sabo (no, he is not a copy) etc. Doffy and Law have the best story arc in the entire series so far, if you ask me.
Then don't even get me started on design. WCI showed that Oda can get even better at it since it's his best crew portrayal so far.
All in all, I think he's becoming better at some things, and neglecting other things. But I'm cool with it.
A lot of characters are Oda's biggest virtue AND flaw. Sometimes they're a hit, other times they're a miss. But, to say something positive about it: more crew members allows for more balanced team splits, which I enjoy. I enjoy having a Sanji retrieval team, and resting from the others for a while. Then actually missing them and wanting to see them. I like having two plot lines, and it makes me happy when they come together. Might be my inner child, but Zoro and Luffy reuniting in Wano made a bigger smile on my face than on theirs :yasu:
Also, I enjoy an arsenal of new characters like Law, Doffy, Barto, Cavendish, Sabo (no, he is not a copy) etc. Doffy and Law have the best story arc in the entire series so far, if you ask me.
Then don't even get me started on design. WCI showed that Oda can get even better at it since it's his best crew portrayal so far.
All in all, I think he's becoming better at some things, and neglecting other things. But I'm cool with it.