General & Others Kizaru vs Luffy: An Agendaless View

[Pringles]

Limit were not reached against Lucci, you got Luffy laughing his ass off, talking to Sentoumaru and moving to the vacuum rocket AFTER he sent him flying, while against Kizaru Luffy was completely immobilize the second he used WSG because he actually reached his limit there. (as he said it himself)

Did not end in the same state either, this is the first time his eyes are white (indicating at least partial unconsciousness) and is completely unable to even lift a finger after G5.

I'm literally stating facts here.

Wiwi, I know that Luffy had it easier against Lucci, that's not what I'm arguing. Luffy also looks more drained against Kizaru than against Lucci.

However, like Luffy said, he gave it all against Lucci. He also said that he reached his limit against Kizaru. He took them down temporarily and got a drawback from his fruit as a consequence in both situations.

I'm just saying that the conclusion is the same.

I'm not downplaying Kizaru by saying that, that's not what I'm doing here.

Kizaru is clearly much stronger than Lucci.

This wasn't a fight anyway, this was Tom & Jerry.

 

[RebelliousSoma]

So, it's not surprising and not anti-climatic at all that Luffy reached his limit here.

Here we'll disagree. There's no way I can be content with this fight or ending. A laser show vs rubber band would have been thousand times better. It was terrible, I expected far more from Oda. If he defeated Kaido during that extremely long fight then he shouldn't exhaust here so easily.

Oda just pausing the fight to let Saturn get the stage was utterly annoying. Expecting the entrance of another character soon. Can't even say for sure Luffy's life drain is temporary.

The biggest concern is Oda is trying to nerf Luffy now after giving him the Allmight (hero academia) powerlevel. And the life drain will likely end Luffy's life as some theorize, which is again terrible writing.

 

[Pringles]

Here we'll disagree. There's no way I can be content with this fight or ending. A laser show vs rubber band would have been thousand times better. It was terrible, I expected far more from Oda. If he defeated Kaido during that extremely long fight then he shouldn't exhaust here so easily.

Oda just pausing the fight to let Saturn get the stage was utterly annoying. Expecting the entrance of another character soon. Can't even say for sure Luffy's life drain is temporary.

The biggest concern is Oda is trying to nerf Luffy now after giving him the Allmight (hero academia) powerlevel. And the life drain will likely end Luffy's life as some theorize, which is again terrible writing.

This wasn't a fight, this was a chase of Luffy after Kizaru, Tom & Jerry. Luffy being drained after the chase is not anti-climatic, it's what you expect from him chasing a lightspeed character.

If this was a proper 1v1 fight where both opponents seek to fight each other, this would have been different.

 

[Sir Yasheen]

Robot might just be a Zunesha until it does something I don't expect anything. It's just headcanon and speculation. Just like how people speculated Saturn isn't there to fight.

The problem is Oda decided it's time for G5 to end and it didn't feel natural conclusion. It was very anti-climatic and poor writing style, very disengaging to the reader.

In the Whole Cake Island, Luffy was beaten up by Sanji, held captive for a while, went through an awful lot of damage, including from big Mom. He suffered a lot more but could still fight ...
Same with the Wano arc. Constant fights. Still won.

In fact I am not sure the power leveling was even consistent for Luffy, from the time he first faced Big Mom up to the time he finally beat Kaido. So based on that alone, he might power up mid fight and defeat Saturn too, although it's unrealistic, it's possible, because the plot isn't consistent.

I think there’s a big difference between Zunesha and the robot. The Robot was introduced as a fighter that attacked Mariejoa meanwhile Zunesha was introduced as someone who could only fight under Momos orders.

 

[Uncle Van]

The people who consider this a draw do it solely based on the fact that both Kizaru and Luffy are laying on the ground.

However, that's not what this is about.

Why people say this is a Luffy win:
- Luffy took down Kizaru (temporarily) with 1 single punch, Luffy is having Nika drawback
- Kizaru was escaping Luffy going after Vegapunk and weaker characters, Luffy ran after him and took him down
- Kizaru's mission was to assassinate Vegapunk and he did not achieve his mission because of Luffy
- Saturn understands why Kizaru failed his mission and is temporarily down: Nika (Luffy)
- Saturn had to land on Egghead to take over Kizaru's mission

Why people say this is a draw:
- Luffy and Kizaru are both laying on the ground

Now take everything together and think about who took the win here.

Fight was blatantly shown as a draw.

-Luffy himself said that he's always serious and fighting hard while as Kizaru canonically wasn't.
-Kizaru kept leaving the fight and used distractions to focus on killing Vegapunk.
-Luffy caught up because Kizaru literally stopped moving
-Kizaru won all exchanges except 1 without getting a scratch
-Luffy barely managed to land a blow by suddenly increasing his speed.
-Both men are down with Luffy saying he's at his limit

Y'all keep mixing the fight itself with the goal. Yamato "beat" Kaido cause she achieved her goal of stalling Kaido until Luffy bounces back. Don't see anyone pushing her above Kaido cause of it.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Robot might just be a Zunesha until it does something I don't expect anything. It's just headcanon and speculation. Just like how people speculated Saturn isn't there to fight.

The problem is Oda decided it's time for G5 to end and it didn't feel natural conclusion. It was very anti-climatic and poor writing style, very disengaging to the reader.

In the Whole Cake Island, Luffy was beaten up by Sanji, held captive for a while, went through an awful lot of damage, including from big Mom. He suffered a lot more but could still fight ...
Same with the Wano arc. Constant fights. Still won.

In fact I am not sure the power leveling was even consistent for Luffy, from the time he first faced Big Mom up to the time he finally beat Kaido. So based on that alone, he might power up mid fight and defeat Saturn too, although it's unrealistic, it's possible, because the plot isn't consistent.

It's all Oda, all the time. The thing is that he's a little unhinged now. Luffy somehow jumped a level every time he lost to Kaido, but now he's used Gear 5 a second time in EH and he actually looks worse than he did on first awakening.

WCI was actually fine to me in comparison, especially because Nami pointed out his exhaustion before getting hurt by Sanji and then it was to the point of getting pancaked by scrubs when the mob came. He had some decent recovery before the wedding as well. Not that the writing in that arc didn't take dramatic liberties.

 

[Pringles]

Fight was blatantly shown as a draw.

-Luffy himself said that he's always serious and fighting hard while as Kizaru canonically wasn't.
-Kizaru kept leaving the fight and used distractions to focus on killing Vegapunk.
-Luffy caught up because Kizaru literally stopped moving
-Kizaru won all exchanges except 1 without getting a scratch
-Luffy barely managed to land a blow by suddenly increasing his speed.
-Both men are down with Luffy saying he's at his limit

Y'all keep mixing the fight itself with the goal. Yamato "beat" Kaido cause she achieved her goal of stalling Kaido until Luffy bounces back. Don't she anyone pushing her above Kaido cause of it.

Who punched who?
Who failed his mission?

Based on your logic, Luffy vs Kaido was a draw too, I would even call it a loss for Luffy since he lost almost all of his exchanges before bajrang gun. Yet, we both know who won there.

Luffy vs Katakuri was also a draw/loss for Luffy, same for Luffy vs Doflamingo.

You realize that calling it a win for Luffy does not invalidate the points you made, right?

You realize you guys can put your ego aside, acknowledge this is a win for Luffy, and yet still acknowledge that Kizaru pushed Luffy to his limit?

"The victor needs no epithet".

 

[RebelliousSoma]

I think there’s a big difference between Zunesha and the robot. The Robot was introduced as a fighter that attacked Mariejoa meanwhile Zunesha was introduced as someone who could only fight under Momos orders.

I'd be happy to see the robot not be useless, lol, but won't get my hopes up and I need to see it happen first before I could come close to believing it.

Right now it might be just a post arc conversation they will have with the robot:
"here's a power up Franky, now go on your way and support the pirate king"

 

[Grade12]

Lizaru took a huge L here. And i was supporting Admiral > Younko for years. Bad look for my agenda. But Akainu is built diffrent anyway. Akainu>Kuzan>>>other admirals

 

[Fleet Leader Fenaker]

I think everybody agrees that neither Luffy or Kizaru came out of this fight like people expected them to. And fans of both sides have been trying to cover this up with embarrassing copes.

The Luffy/Yonko fans did not expect Luffy to be completely helpless after using G5 and only landing one hit on Kizaru. And Kizaru/Admiral fans did not expect him to be incapacitated after just one hit. These are not the standards that people were shown in Wano and earlier of established top tiers.

At the end of last chapter, Luffy fans were arguing that Luffy would just restart the beat like he did against Kaido and Kizaru fans were saying that he will get back and he is still in troll mode. The result though was that Luffy had to be saved by Franky, whereas Kizaru can talk but cant move and get up.

Neither side has come out looking good in this exchange and I expect that their might not even be a rematch now, Oda will leave this as inconclusive and move on to Saturn.

Yeah a draw , mind you it's a a Kizaru who didn't give his all because of his hesitation

 

[Uncle Van]

Who punched who?
Who failed his mission?

Based on your logic, Luffy vs Kaido was a draw too, I would even call it a loss for Luffy since he lost almost all of his exchanges before bajrang gun. Yet, we both know who won there.

Luffy vs Katakuri was also a draw/loss for Luffy, same for Luffy vs Doflamingo.

You realize that calling it a win for Luffy does not invalidate the points you made, right?

You realize you guys can put your ego aside, acknowledge this is a win for Luffy, and yet still acknowledge that Kizaru pushed Luffy to his limit?

Unfortunately for your examples, Luffy was blatantly shown and portrayed as the winner. His opponents were literally knocked out or flat out dead. In this encounter with Kizaru, it was a shown as a draw.

Also seems like you're ignoring the fact that people are saying Luffy won to powerscale and downplay the admirals. Any genius knows Luffy succeeded in his mission. The mission goal is hardly the point of any of these discussions: its about judging the performance between the two in order to power scale.

 

[RebelliousSoma]

Yeah a draw , mind you it's a a Kizaru who didn't give his all because of his hesitation

Does Luffy give his all or fight at full potential? Any serious character in the verse that had the fruit in his place, let's say Zoro for example, would have mastered it by now and would have kept all fights short.

 

[Pringles]

Also seems like you're ignoring the fact that people are saying Luffy won to powerscale and downplay the admirals. Any genius knows Luffy succeeded in his mission. The mission goal is hardly the point of any of these discussions: its about judging the performance between the two in order to power scale.

In my eyes, Luffy won but this doesn't say anything about yonko vs admirals.

Like ok, Luffy landed a clean hit on an admiral and incapacitated him temporarily, and this can be seen as a powerscaling argument.

What people kinda forget however is that this is Nika and Luffy's 2nd strongest attack. Luffy's strongest attack took down a yonko.

Luffy had to use Gear 5 and use his 2nd strongest attack to even temporarily take down Kizaru.

So are the admirals really that far from the yonko? I don't think so. I still put them slightly below the yonko but the difference is not as big as some people make it seem.

I think however that Gorosei are stronger than the admirals and I think the real villain of Egghead that Nika will face is Saturn.

 

[RebelliousSoma]

Luffy loses battle IQ with each passing chapter. Oda is writing a glorified overpowered idiot at this point. Hope he gets back on track. In the earlier chapters, while Luffy was still daft at times, he was smart in battles.

This isn't the same Luffy and the character loses credibility, devaluing the story.

 

[M944]

I think he's down because of Oda more than anything else. Will Luffy die at the end of One Piece for losing out on lifespawn? That would be so lame and shit writing style but it's possible considering what's been happening so far.

Yeah I think it's a huge possibilty Luffy dies eventhough it will be lame

 

[Luffy is the mc]

Sorry, could you please link me the scan were Luffy said Lucci brought him to the limit like Kizaru?
And so why Luffy could not restart the G5 against Saturn and have to rely on Franky.

Thanks, I must have missed it.

I can link you the scan where Luffy is in the exact same state after Lucci's fight. He was in the same state after a round of G5 vs Kaido.
As I said the opponent doesn't change the drawback of G5.
Kizaru did jack shit, same as Lucci. It is on panel, and it's facts. Facts. No agenda here.
The fight was shit, Luffy was shit but Kizaru was even shittier, looked like a fodder compared to G5 Luffy. Dude is currently crying on the ground about his weakness and is apologizing to his master.

Post automatically merged: Oct 13, 2023

As I said and I will say it one more time because you are nitpicking random details, the conclusion is the same:
- Luffy reaches his limit
- He defeats his opponent (takes him down temporarily)
- He looks like an old man
- Luffy is back 32 seconds later

Of course that Luffy had it easier against Lucci, of course that Kizaru is stronger than Lucci, Luffy had to use his 2nd strongest attack against Kizaru (+aCoC) when he only used CoA against Lucci... but the conclusion is the same.

Yeah G5 has a time limit, we all know that. His limit is a time limit here, nothing else.
Kizaru did zero damage. Lucci did zero damage.
Luffy used adv CoC only once, that's the real nerf. And once was enough to knock Kizaru out.

 

[Dragon777]

I can link you the scan where Luffy is in the exact same state after Lucci's fight. He was in the same state after a round of G5 vs Kaido.
As I said the opponent doesn't change the drawback of G5.
Kizaru did jack shit, same as Lucci. It is on panel, and it's facts. Facts. No agenda here.
The fight was shit, Luffy was shit but Kizaru was even shittier, looked like a fodder compared to G5 Luffy. Dude is currently crying on the ground about his weakness and is apologizing to his master.

Then I can link you the scan of Luffy starting the G5 again against Kaido and not doing the same here and instead letting his crew face the danger because...he can't, now.

So, again, if you can link me the scan of Lucci bringing the G5 to its extreme time limit, then yeah, same result.

Tbh, if the fight ends here, then it was really shitty. However, I don't think It Will.

 

[haxxor]

I can link you the scan where Luffy is in the exact same state after Lucci's fight. He was in the same state after a round of G5 vs Kaido.
As I said the opponent doesn't change the drawback of G5.
Kizaru did jack shit, same as Lucci. It is on panel, and it's facts. Facts. No agenda here.
The fight was shit, Luffy was shit but Kizaru was even shittier, looked like a fodder compared to G5 Luffy. Dude is currently crying on the ground about his weakness and is apologizing to his master.

Post automatically merged: Oct 13, 2023

Yeah G5 has a time limit, we all know that. His limit is a time limit here, nothing else.
Kizaru did zero damage. Lucci did zero damage.
Luffy used adv CoC only once, that's the real nerf. And once was enough to knock Kizaru out.

How did he look like a fodder? Luffy is the one who was trolled despite having the goofy goofy no mi

what’s this condition now? Right it’s as shitty as you can go, went from a youth with energy to a near death experience old fart

 

[Luffy is the mc]

How did he look like a fodder? Luffy is the one who was trolled despite having the goofy goofy no mi

what’s this condition now? Right it’s as shitty as you can go, went from a youth with energy to a near death experience old fart

Kizaru was one shoted. Face reality. Luffy would be in that state vs the weakest fighter in the verse after G5.

 

[haxxor]

Kizaru was one shoted. Face reality. Luffy would be in that state vs the weakest fighter in the verse after G5.

What’s the point of that Star Gun? He needed to sacrifice all of the energy he has to focus on that move just to immobilize Kizaru

bet on it, state that Kizaru will stay down meanwhile Luffy gets up since ur confident

bet that account on it too

Post automatically merged: Oct 13, 2023

Yonko wankers start getting cheap and look for easy loopholes

break the fight down and they have no arguments left stored in their ass, so they’ll resort to being children and spam “Buh Buh he stil got OnE ShoTtT”

Desperation Moo