General & Others Zoro s confirmed to be the deuteragonist.
- Thread starter L57
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He's a side kick, and often times side kicks are very different from the main character because it plays very well to have some contrast.
When I hear the word deuteragonist I think of someone like Sasuke, someone who gets just as much panel time & plot relevance as the protagonist, even when they're seperated.
What is Zoro's story? Sulks around and fights 2nd best. How is he shaping his world? How relevant is he, how much development does he get? He's just the strongest subordinate of a man who's actually shaping his world.
Maybe if 40% of the manga was Koby's story, and he had more medal worthy moments other than rocky port. We'd be on to something like a deuteragonist. Or maybe if Zoro's story was actually interesting and relevant enough to take up even 30% of the manga plot, we'd be on to something.
When I hear the word deuteragonist I think of someone like Sasuke, someone who gets just as much panel time & plot relevance as the protagonist, even when they're seperated.
What is Zoro's story? Sulks around and fights 2nd best. How is he shaping his world? How relevant is he, how much development does he get? He's just the strongest subordinate of a man who's actually shaping his world.
Maybe if 40% of the manga was Koby's story, and he had more medal worthy moments other than rocky port. We'd be on to something like a deuteragonist. Or maybe if Zoro's story was actually interesting and relevant enough to take up even 30% of the manga plot, we'd be on to something.
Lmao no
On that I'm a lost cause
No but for real. Put yourself in my shoes for one second.
You have studied storytelling through different means and medias for almost 20 years. You spend a decade analysing the works of the greatest script doctors on the planet. You investigated and deconstructed your entire life the work of the best manga author on the planet based on your knowledge....
And then...
You tell a random storytelling fact and 15 rando who think the story with their testosterone tell you that you are a fraud because you are analysing the story of a bunny girl.
If you don't become a little bit arrogant after that, you are a saint mate.
On that I'm a lost cause
No but for real. Put yourself in my shoes for one second.
You have studied storytelling through different means and medias for almost 20 years. You spend a decade analysing the works of the greatest script doctors on the planet. You investigated and deconstructed your entire life the work of the best manga author on the planet based on your knowledge....
And then...
You tell a random storytelling fact and 15 rando who think the story with their testosterone tell you that you are a fraud because you are analysing the story of a bunny girl.
If you don't become a little bit arrogant after that, you are a saint mate.
Lmao no
On that I'm a lost cause
No but for real. Put yourself in my shoes for one second.
You have studied storytelling through different means and medias for almost 20 years. You spend a decade analysing the works of the greatest script doctors on the planet. You investigated and deconstructed your entire life the work of the best manga author on the planet based on your knowledge....
And then...
You tell a random storytelling fact and 15 rando who think the story with their testosterone tell you that you are a fraud because you are analysing the story of a bunny girl.
If you don't become a little bit arrogant after that, you are a saint mate.
On that I'm a lost cause
No but for real. Put yourself in my shoes for one second.
You have studied storytelling through different means and medias for almost 20 years. You spend a decade analysing the works of the greatest script doctors on the planet. You investigated and deconstructed your entire life the work of the best manga author on the planet based on your knowledge....
And then...
You tell a random storytelling fact and 15 rando who think the story with their testosterone tell you that you are a fraud because you are analysing the story of a bunny girl.
If you don't become a little bit arrogant after that, you are a saint mate.
Lmao no
On that I'm a lost cause
No but for real. Put yourself in my shoes for one second.
You have studied storytelling through different means and medias for almost 20 years. You spend a decade analysing the works of the greatest script doctors on the planet. You investigated and deconstructed your entire life the work of the best manga author on the planet based on your knowledge....
And then...
You tell a random storytelling fact and 15 rando who think the story with their testosterone tell you that you are a fraud because you are analysing the story of a bunny girl.
If you don't become a little bit arrogant after that, you are a saint mate.
On that I'm a lost cause
No but for real. Put yourself in my shoes for one second.
You have studied storytelling through different means and medias for almost 20 years. You spend a decade analysing the works of the greatest script doctors on the planet. You investigated and deconstructed your entire life the work of the best manga author on the planet based on your knowledge....
And then...
You tell a random storytelling fact and 15 rando who think the story with their testosterone tell you that you are a fraud because you are analysing the story of a bunny girl.
If you don't become a little bit arrogant after that, you are a saint mate.
Doesn't matter you have 20 years experience or 10... you are always on learning path. And, you getting things wrong about carrot was an indication for you that you need to learn more.
But here you are...
Quote us when you predict one single thing right which we not so expert aren't able to
I actually predicted the fact that Carrot would become a important character mate.
And she did
But again, you are talking about prediction. This is theorizing. I could theorize about anything and be right, it would not mean that I know storytelling.
Here, I'm talking about storytelling, not theories. Storytelling is a craft, with rules. And one of those rules is the following :
The antagonist of a story is always the second most important character after the protagonist(s) in term of narration
And she did
But again, you are talking about prediction. This is theorizing. I could theorize about anything and be right, it would not mean that I know storytelling.
Here, I'm talking about storytelling, not theories. Storytelling is a craft, with rules. And one of those rules is the following :
The antagonist of a story is always the second most important character after the protagonist(s) in term of narration
I actually predicted the fact that Carrot would become a important character mate.
And she did
But again, you are talking about prediction. This is theorizing. I could theorize about anything and be right, it would not mean that I know storytelling.
Here, I'm talking about storytelling, not theories. Storytelling is a craft, with rules. And one of those rules is the following :
The antagonist of a story is always the second most important character after the protagonist(s) in term of narration
And she did
But again, you are talking about prediction. This is theorizing. I could theorize about anything and be right, it would not mean that I know storytelling.
Here, I'm talking about storytelling, not theories. Storytelling is a craft, with rules. And one of those rules is the following :
The antagonist of a story is always the second most important character after the protagonist(s) in term of narration
And, let me remind you - the basis on which the arguments you gave for carrot was exactly what you are saying rn - "you know art of story telling".
So, we all are well versed with your art of story telling lol
You are the same person who said oda got it wrong when carrot didn't join...
Yes you are arrogant...so no need to play "people don't understand card" with us.
And it does not make you raise questions ?
Completely yes. And I stand by everything that I said all those years.
The storytelling doesn't lie, Carrot is an alien in the current storyline. The ONLY things that I got wrong are the predictions I made based on those storytelling facts.
You need to realize that analysis and theorizing are two very different domain. Let me give you an example:
- If I say that Zoro's characterization is revolving around the notions of honor, death and grief and inferiority complex, that statement is a storytelling fact. I can say that because of multiple elements spreaded all over his storyline.
- Now if I say that because of that, Zoro might have to face his final opponent as a woman to overcomes ALL of that, then this would be the realm of theorization. I have no way to be sure that it will happen, but that's highly probable.
This is why you need to prevent the confusion when I say that Carrot was build like a strawhat (storytelling fact) and when I say that Carrot will join the crew (theorization).
I can be completely wrong on the second but be completely right on the first. Simply because I'm not the one in command of the story, Oda is.
Not yet. He COULD be wrong and make a storytelling mistake, but for now, he is not. I will have to wait the end of the story to be sure about that.
The problem is that people REALLY don't understand what I'm talking about. I sound arrogant because I'm stating stuff and I'm trying to explain my reasonning, but if you understood what I say, you would find that completely normal.
When I say that I'm not the average poster on storytelling, its because I noticed that usually, people don't understand the basic storytelling rules and stuff. Things that are normal to me because I've spent years trying to understand the craft.
Like... take for example this thread.
If I say that it is useless and unproductive, I would sound arrogant, but the reality is that it REALLY is unproductive. In fact its even damaging for the narrative comprehension of everyone.
People took a ancient storytelling term "deuteragonism", and are trying to sound clever by pushing it on modern day characters like Zoro or Sasuke.
The problem is that they don't realize that the term literally means "second actor" because in ancient greek plays, there were only three actors playing. Its not the second most important character because of the story but because of the support the actors are playing on.
Stories have evolved since then and the role of the deuteragonist will be found in other characters that can acts as allies or as important for the development of the character.
BUT
This doesn't mean that those character are - in present stories - the most important characters after the protagonists. It just mean that they are important FOR the development and relationships of the character.
In present stories, the most important character for the narration - after the protagonist - is the antagonist. Simply because the story is build around the challenge between the antagonist and protagonist's battle for a common goal.
Using the term deuteragonist in our current modern storytelling age is therefore not adapted. The concept has evolved. And it can misslead people to think that character like Zoro are most important narratively than a character like Blackbeard or Imu when its not the case.
If that's sound arrogant to you... i can't do much about that sadly..
Completely yes. And I stand by everything that I said all those years.
The storytelling doesn't lie, Carrot is an alien in the current storyline. The ONLY things that I got wrong are the predictions I made based on those storytelling facts.
You need to realize that analysis and theorizing are two very different domain. Let me give you an example:
- If I say that Zoro's characterization is revolving around the notions of honor, death and grief and inferiority complex, that statement is a storytelling fact. I can say that because of multiple elements spreaded all over his storyline.
- Now if I say that because of that, Zoro might have to face his final opponent as a woman to overcomes ALL of that, then this would be the realm of theorization. I have no way to be sure that it will happen, but that's highly probable.
This is why you need to prevent the confusion when I say that Carrot was build like a strawhat (storytelling fact) and when I say that Carrot will join the crew (theorization).
I can be completely wrong on the second but be completely right on the first. Simply because I'm not the one in command of the story, Oda is.
Not yet. He COULD be wrong and make a storytelling mistake, but for now, he is not. I will have to wait the end of the story to be sure about that.
The problem is that people REALLY don't understand what I'm talking about. I sound arrogant because I'm stating stuff and I'm trying to explain my reasonning, but if you understood what I say, you would find that completely normal.
When I say that I'm not the average poster on storytelling, its because I noticed that usually, people don't understand the basic storytelling rules and stuff. Things that are normal to me because I've spent years trying to understand the craft.
Like... take for example this thread.
If I say that it is useless and unproductive, I would sound arrogant, but the reality is that it REALLY is unproductive. In fact its even damaging for the narrative comprehension of everyone.
People took a ancient storytelling term "deuteragonism", and are trying to sound clever by pushing it on modern day characters like Zoro or Sasuke.
The problem is that they don't realize that the term literally means "second actor" because in ancient greek plays, there were only three actors playing. Its not the second most important character because of the story but because of the support the actors are playing on.
Stories have evolved since then and the role of the deuteragonist will be found in other characters that can acts as allies or as important for the development of the character.
BUT
This doesn't mean that those character are - in present stories - the most important characters after the protagonists. It just mean that they are important FOR the development and relationships of the character.
In present stories, the most important character for the narration - after the protagonist - is the antagonist. Simply because the story is build around the challenge between the antagonist and protagonist's battle for a common goal.
Using the term deuteragonist in our current modern storytelling age is therefore not adapted. The concept has evolved. And it can misslead people to think that character like Zoro are most important narratively than a character like Blackbeard or Imu when its not the case.
If that's sound arrogant to you... i can't do much about that sadly..
You know zoro fans will forever be delusional
Zkk
Zoro being deuterogonist
Even though Zoro can be away from an arc or the story for 10 years, the story will still progress
The dude is irrelevant except when it comes to some tiny battles against underlings
No deuterogonist is an underling
Ryuma isn't Zoro
And Oda himself didn't even write Zoro as he wrote Ryuma or Luffy
We don't follow Zoro's journey as something super important alongside Luffy's journey, in fact you guys cry everyday that Oda doesn't flesh out Zoro's dream and WSS path. When is the last time this 2nd MC had a real rival for his goal?
You can cope like you want,
Luffy doesn't have Sasuke/Vegeta/Killua.
He has a lapdog that praises him and follows his order aka Zoro
Zkk
Zoro being deuterogonist
Even though Zoro can be away from an arc or the story for 10 years, the story will still progress
The dude is irrelevant except when it comes to some tiny battles against underlings
No deuterogonist is an underling
Ryuma isn't Zoro
And Oda himself didn't even write Zoro as he wrote Ryuma or Luffy
We don't follow Zoro's journey as something super important alongside Luffy's journey, in fact you guys cry everyday that Oda doesn't flesh out Zoro's dream and WSS path. When is the last time this 2nd MC had a real rival for his goal?
You can cope like you want,
Luffy doesn't have Sasuke/Vegeta/Killua.
He has a lapdog that praises him and follows his order aka Zoro
