Controversial RELIGIONS & SPIRITUALITIES : Conversations

This is a self-defeating argument though when we take it to its zenith. What do you mean by evidence? And what constitutes that your standards for evidence are sound to begin with?
Surely a perfect being would know what evidence he should leave us to concince everyone, right?
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This is a self-defeating argument though when we take it to its zenith. What do you mean by evidence? And what constitutes that your standards for evidence are sound to begin with?
And what is the alternative?

Not believing in anything because nothing is sufficient anyway?

Or just believing what makes me feel comfortable? Believing what i happened to have been indoctrinated into as a kid? Then congrats, im a christian again
Sorry for your precious islam, came too late
 
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Surely a perfect being would know what evidence he should leave us to concince everyone, right?
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And what is the alternative?

Not believing in anything because nothing is sufficient anyway?

Or just believing what makes me feel comfortable? Believing what i happened to have been indoctrinated into as a kid? Then congrats, im a christian again
Sorry for your precious islam, came too late
Splendid job dodging the question and deflecting to other issues instead of clarifying what you mean.
 
Splendid job dodging the question and deflecting to other issues instead of clarifying what you mean.
Ye i know this philosophy of science game.

I dont really care about it. We have a good method called science to use empirical evidence, repeatedly, on predictions via hypotheses to make conclusions about how things in our world behave. It works really well. Us communicating right now is a testament to that.

And im sure you will then tell me science has limits. Sure, there are things we dont know and might never know, doesnt diminish what we do and can know.

And if god is one of these these things we cant know about through science, i dont see any good reason to believe in his existence on bad or no evidence. And its not like i didnt try. But i also dont actively disbelieve in gods existence..at least not generally. The abrahamic god is different as his supposed revelations are lackluster to say the least.

Also interesting considering its theistic apologists trying to convince others with supposed scientific evidence from the bible/quran
I wonder whether you would ask them the same question ;)


But also please tell me: whats the alternative to using evidence? Because you also 'dodged' that question
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It is kinda sad though that @Logiko of all peeps is one of the few actually valuing science and evidence :risicheck:
 
Because the universe has a starting point and came into existance after major energy was put into tge Big Bang. Meaning something was there before to initiate the process, something that can produce that necessary energy.
Everything in nature follows mathematical order, this implies there is reason in nature and that some intelligence that preceded creation made the world the way it is.
 
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jews remove their foreskin too??
Circumcision is how God established a covenant with Abraham. So circumcision is like baptism for Jews.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=55114
Gen.17
[1] And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
[2] And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
[3] And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
[4] As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
[5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
[6] And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[8] And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
[9] And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
[10] This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
[11] And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
[12] And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
[13] He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
[14] And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
[15] And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
[16] And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
[17] Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
[18] And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
[19] And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
[20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
[21] But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
[22] And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
[23] And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
[24] And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
[25] And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
[26] In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
[27] And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Christians don't cause we are told to "circumcise your heart" instead. Meaning, to change from within.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2:25-29&version=HCSB
25 For circumcision benefits you if you observe the law, but if you are a lawbreaker, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if an uncircumcised man keeps the law’s requirements, will his uncircumcision not be counted as circumcision? 27 A man who is physically uncircumcised, but who fulfills the law, will judge you who are a lawbreaker in spite of having the letter of the law and circumcision. 28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh. 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter.[a] That man’s praise[b] is not from men but from God.
https://www.gotquestions.org/circumcision-of-the-heart.html
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-6.htm
 

AL sama

Red Haired
Circumcision is how God established a covenant with Abraham. So circumcision is like baptism for Jews.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=55114
Gen.17
[1] And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
[2] And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
[3] And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
[4] As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
[5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
[6] And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[8] And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
[9] And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
[10] This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
[11] And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
[12] And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
[13] He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
[14] And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
[15] And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
[16] And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
[17] Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
[18] And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
[19] And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
[20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
[21] But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
[22] And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
[23] And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
[24] And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
[25] And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
[26] In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
[27] And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Christians don't cause we are told to "circumcise your heart" instead. Meaning, to change from within.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2:25-29&version=HCSB
25 For circumcision benefits you if you observe the law, but if you are a lawbreaker, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if an uncircumcised man keeps the law’s requirements, will his uncircumcision not be counted as circumcision? 27 A man who is physically uncircumcised, but who fulfills the law, will judge you who are a lawbreaker in spite of having the letter of the law and circumcision. 28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh. 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter.[a] That man’s praise[b] is not from men but from God.
https://www.gotquestions.org/circumcision-of-the-heart.html
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-6.htm
how bored can you be to quote a year old post by me
 
Because of how weird some of your takes are lul
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Why though?
It makes no sense for the complexity that is the universe to be the result of a random event. An intelligence orchestrating it makes much more sense.
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how bored can you be to quote a year old post by me
I was reading this thread and just decided to reply. I thought history of Judaism/Christianity was widespread among Muslims.
 
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Because of how weird some of your takes are lul
I can understand how what I say can sound weird for those are not used to the materialist approach but that funny.. because what I say in reality, is really not the next level.

I'm usually saying mostly basic leftist stuff from a materialist, progressist and anti-capitalist point of view...

It makes no sense for the complexity that is the universe to be the result of a random event. An intelligence orchestrating it makes much more sense.
Don't be so sure.

Let's tale a metaphore. Let's say that you have a magic bow that can shot 1000 arrows at once.

When you are shooting those arrows toward a target, they will scatter. And the probability to hit the center of the target will be very high.

In fact with some theories, ( @Reborn might explain that better than me), it's a multiverse that was created at the beginning. This means that the existence launch a infinite number of possibilities with an infinite number of universal constant...

... and we just happen to be the one universe (or one of those) who can remain sightly stable because our Universe just happens to have the right balance.

This does not explain the presence of nothing instead of nothing tho.. but it shows that we might just be very lucky.
 
It makes no sense for the complexity that is the universe to be the result of a random event. An intelligence orchestrating it makes much more sense.
then we get to basically the same issue @Logiko brought up with his question of who created god.

because that supernatural entity that defies time and space is more complex than the universe you claim has to have an intelligence orchestrating it.
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I can understand how what I say can sound weird for those are not used to the materialist approach but that funny
interesting because people here insinuated i was a materialist lul
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This does not explain the presence of nothing instead of nothing tho.. but it shows that we might just be very lucky.
same with the supposed argument about earth on life only being possible due to factors like the right distance to the sun and so on.

and how it cant be that random chance brought us on this planet. whereas its actually quite obvious that life only arises where the circumstances that make it possible are present.
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I thought history of Judaism/Christianity was widespread among Muslims.
it depends on the muslim really. some are just fine with knowing about their own scriptures and history, some dont even know that.
 
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interesting because people here insinuated i was a materialist lul
If you were a materialist (not simply as a doctrine, but as a political vision) you would understand everything that I say and pretty much support me on everypoints. In fact, you could even say things that goes farther than me, since I tend to always stay on the surface to remain as comprehensible as possible.

Really, that's something people don't get. But here, I'm only repeating basic stuff from materialistic leftist. What I say makes consensus in those progressive and radical circles.


and how it cant be that random chance brought us on this planet. whereas its actually quite obvious that life only arises where the circumstances that make it possible are present.
Yeah.. For all we know, life could very well be present on multiple celestial objects of the Solar system.
 
Also. Let's not push too much the Science over religion agenda here. I created this place for religious people to discuss safely together.

Let's not push the button too far.

:lusnipe:

(This forum really needs some genuine positive smilies, everytime I want to express something nice, I have the feeling that I'm making fun of everyone lol)
 
Also. Let's not push too much the Science over religion agenda here. I created this place for religious people to discuss safely together.

Let's not push the button too far.

:lusnipe:

(This forum really needs some genuine positive smilies, everytime I want to express something nice, I have the feeling that I'm making fun of everyone lol)
well people can choose to believe on bad/no evidence, but they better not expect me to join in.

other than that, i dont think science over religion needs to be the case. religion offers alot to people that they wont just find in science, and thats fine. there are also plenty irreligious people who dont value science or care about it.
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Yeah.. For all we know, life could very well be present on multiple celestial objects of the Solar system.
emphasis on "could".
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he just wanted to preach nothing else
:kayneshrug:he just posted some bible quotes on circumcision though
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@NAMELESS i have heard about one of the apocryphal gospels having jesus rejecting circumcision on the premise that humans are created in the image of god. i dont quite remember which one though. have you heard about this?
 
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