Controversial General Political Discussion

[Reborn]

Utopia is idealism. It's impossibile and steers you away from reality through blind faith.


Idea itself isn't bad but what it overlook is humans themselves.

What one human want, might not be wanted by other

What one human likes, might not be liked by other

What one human seek, might not be seeked by other

The difference in perspectives, approach, view and wants results in people being on different spectrum even on a common issue and thus the conflicts.

And, then human have vices - envy, greed and so on. Just one person with strong vice is enough to disturb the balance.


We can strive to make society better but to say utopia is realism is nothing short of day dreaming.

 

[Soyz]

Everything you say is irrelevant because you strawman to claim someone feels bad for and supports terrorists.

Glad that you conceded
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different words with different meanings overlap all the time.

Overlap doesn't make them the same, I can say war and genocide are overlapping each other but aren't the same

 

[Blax Blah]

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https://www.reddit.com/r/tankiejerk/s/cldjvqJyv2

@NAMELESS Did you see things like this?

 

[Reborn]

@Uncle Van you know government failed you when people have to hire private fire fighters during wildfire.

You know government priorities are messed up when they are focused on "Trump Proofing" and raising money for it amidst unprecedented wildfire.

 

[Zenos7]

Overlap doesn't make them the same, I can say war and genocide are overlapping each other but aren't the same

No one said that they are the same. But they simply arent mutually exclusive, contrary to what you implied.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

It’s this majority ultra orthodox Jewish town where apparently 40% of people live below the poverty level but despite them having high poverty, this town has very little crime.

I believe it’s because the ultra orthodox are somewhat communistic. Their strong community bonds helps them support one another. Not to mention I’m sure their devote religious convictions probably also play a role in effecting their behavior.

in any case it kinda makes you wonder. We’ve been told poverty causes crime, but maybe there’s more to it than that.

The standards by which poverty is defined and measured internationally are very flawed to.say the least.

The haredi jews and the Amish basically bypass this by creating a massive support system that counteracts the typical capitalist exploitation.

ALL societies used to do this. It is the NORM.

 

[Blax Blah]

https://x.com/EcoTechBro/status/1878962582838784256
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https://x.com/fiona_lali/status/1878764203672293481
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https://libcom.org/article/listen-marxist-murray-bookchin

@Logiko You may really like this writing, and @NAMELESS you may find some common ground in it, it's called Listen, marxist!,

 

[NAMELESS]

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https://www.reddit.com/r/tankiejerk/s/cldjvqJyv2

@NAMELESS Did you see things like this?

oh yeah,it's pretty much the standard behaviour. Brazilian left wingers are pretty violent and radical. The USA is the devil incarnate for them. Anything bad happens, they blame the USA. Lots of Hamas supporters too. Last year, a jew young man was lynched in a public college. Lula tried to arrest a Israeli soldier traveling here. They don't hide how anti-semtic they are.
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https://x.com/EcoTechBro/status/1878962582838784256
[automerge]1736847294[/automerge]
https://x.com/fiona_lali/status/1878764203672293481
[automerge]1736861039[/automerge]
https://libcom.org/article/listen-marxist-murray-bookchin

@Logiko You may really like this writing, and @NAMELESS you may find some common ground in it, it's called Listen, marxist!,

No, there is no common ground with this people. I don't care about their ideology. Their ideas don't matter. History has proven they never really apply whatever non sense they are spewing. I don't trust any left winger. It is all demagogy. I think you are naive, dude.
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I was reading about this town in New Jersey. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York

It’s this majority ultra orthodox Jewish town where apparently 40% of people live below the poverty level but despite them having high poverty, this town has very little crime.

I believe it’s because the ultra orthodox are somewhat communistic. Their strong community bonds helps them support one another. Not to mention I’m sure their devote religious convictions probably also play a role in effecting their behavior.

in any case it kinda makes you wonder. We’ve been told poverty causes crime, but maybe there’s more to it than that.
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I do think crime is cultural, but not in a racist way. I think it’s the culture of capitalism.

Capitalism encourages exploitation. The wealthy engage in exploitation through structural violence. Meanwhile the poor do it by just robbing people.
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The haredi jews and the Amish basically bypass this by creating a massive support system that counteracts the typical capitalist exploitation.

Crime has to do with individual morals. In one place, poverty can mean lots of homeless people, while in other it can mean thiefs. It boils down how individuals decide to act based on their misfortune. Equating poverty with crime is a prejudice view imo. Remember correlation isn't causation. I speak based on 28 years living in Rio de Janeiro, 99.9% of people living in favelas are poor, honest and hardworking. It is that 0,1% that makes living a nightmare for others. I haven't see one criminal that was ashamed of his actions here, they all thing they were entitled to do what they did cause they were struggling. Theft is rarely caused by hunger, most of the time it is just greed. Same thing for violent crime, it is usually anger, hate and envy. Those can commit anyone in any social class. Mental illness has more to with crime than poverty.

 

[Logiko]

So you are saying you want more privileges despite being unproductive?

Usually, when you are not an a*shole, you put more care in people in need.

But of course, I don't expect you to understand that

Utopia is idealism. It's impossibile and steers you away from reality through blind faith.


Idea itself isn't bad but what it overlook is humans themselves.

What one human want, might not be wanted by other

What one human likes, might not be liked by other

What one human seek, might not be seeked by other

The difference in perspectives, approach, view and wants results in people being on different spectrum even on a common issue and thus the conflicts.

And, then human have vices - envy, greed and so on. Just one person with strong vice is enough to disturb the balance.


We can strive to make society better but to say utopia is realism is nothing short of day dreaming.

With my respesct, this is kindergarten level reflexion. It's like sayin "dream is not enough because it's just a dream"

Ok Einstein. But what you don't get is the iceberg of informations and scientific knowledge related the affirmation that a 1000x time better world than we live in today IS possible (which would be a form of Utopia).

You just give me a new proof of our conditionning. Our system made you completely reject the idea of a better world.

What I'm talking about is the opposite of idealism. It's a materialist affirmation.

On the other hand, the idea that a better world is impossible because of human nature is an idealistic and irrationnal belief.

https://libcom.org/article/listen-marxist-murray-bookchin

@Logiko You may really like this writing, and @NAMELESS you may find some common ground in it, it's called Listen, marxist!,

Thanks for sharing

 

[NAMELESS]

Usually, when you are not an a*shole, you put more care in people in need.

But of course, I don't expect you to understand that





With my respesct, this is kindergarten level reflexion. It's like sayin "dream is not enough because it's just a dream"

Ok Einstein. But what you don't get is the iceberg of informations and scientific knowledge related the affirmation that a 1000x time better world than we live in today IS possible (which would be a form of Utopia).

You just give me a new proof of our conditionning. Our system made you completely reject the idea of a better world.

What I'm talking about is the opposite of idaelism. It's a materialist affirmation.

On the other hand, the idea that a better world is impossible because of human nature is an idealistic and irrationnal belief.


Thanks for sharing

I'm 100% pro charity. What i do not support is state coercion to enforce said charity.

 

[Logiko]

I'm 100% pro charity. What i do not support is state coercion to enforce said charity.

What made you hate humans so much ?

 

[NAMELESS]

What made you hate humans so much ?

Ironically, you are the one calling for violence here. You want the government to force people to do stuff. STATE COERCION=VIOLENCE. TAXES=THEFT.

 

[Logiko]

Ironically, you are the one calling for violence here. You want the government to force people to do stuff. STATE COERCION=VIOLENCE. TAXES=THEFT.

Actually, in the utopia I'm talking about, there is no need for state. It would be as close as you possible as what we know as Anarchism.

In a normal society, people understand the need for them to give to help to others. In other words, in a functionning and highly positive society, people don't exclude themselves from the social process and the pression to give to others is social and not created by violence.

Hence why I'm asking you: What made you hate other human, or in other words : What made you think that you should exclude yourself from society and social relationships ?

 

[NAMELESS]

Actually, in the utopia I'm talking about, there is no need for state. It would be as close as you possible as what we know as Anarchism.

In a normal society, people understand the need for them to give to help to others. In other words, in a functionning and highly positive society, people don't exclude themselves from the social process and the pression to give to others is social and not created by violence.

Hence why I'm asking you: What made you hate other human, or in other words : What made you think that you should exclude yourself from society and social relationships ?

If you believe such fantasies, i can only think of you as a kid, not a man. Also, get off your high horse. Anyone that isn't blind and has 2 functioning neurons knows that all this humanistic talk you left people preach is just demagogy to get money out their pockets. Leftism is a cult of thieves veiled as a humanistic political ideology.

 

[Logiko]

If you believe such fantasies, i can only think of you as a kid, not a man. Also, get off your high horse. Anyone that isn't blind and has 2 functioning neurons knows that all this humanistic talk your left people preach is just demagogy to money out their pockets. Leftism is cult of thieves veiled as a humanistic political ideology.

Ok, I will translate your message for those who are new:

"I'm not a kid anymore, I don't believe that the world can be better"
"I don't believe when people are nice to others, it must be because of greed"
"People who talk about oppression do not care about us, they are really just wolf in sheep clothing"

What you are showing mehere, is that what you are afraid of, is people being nice just for money. You are literally expressing the fear of capitalists.

Hence why I am asking you : What made you hate humanity so much ?

 

[Uncle Van]

Utopia is idealism. It's impossibile and steers you away from reality through blind faith.


Idea itself isn't bad but what it overlook is humans themselves.

What one human want, might not be wanted by other

What one human likes, might not be liked by other

What one human seek, might not be seeked by other

The difference in perspectives, approach, view and wants results in people being on different spectrum even on a common issue and thus the conflicts.

And, then human have vices - envy, greed and so on. Just one person with strong vice is enough to disturb the balance.


We can strive to make society better but to say utopia is realism is nothing short of day dreaming.

Idealist believe that humans beings are perfectable, but in order to realize a society where everyone is singing kumbaya, you have to get rid of the individual. Ironically, that is method used by many dictatorships and cults to condition the people into being completely loyal to their ruler and cause, but it never fully worked as even the harshest of punishments and brainwashing couldn't get rid of personal desires and individualism.

Logiko is basically calling for the extreme emotional manipulation of the masses to condition them into getting rid of desire and individualism, for the betterment of the collective.

There's a reason this always appear in the horror genre lol

 

[Daniel]

You adapt to your surroundings as you grow up.

You can't expect the world to adapt to you, because there’s only so much the world can change at a time.

Having good relationships with people that lend you support instead of disrespect is best.

 

[Logiko]

Idealist believe that humans beings are perfectable, but in order to realize a society where everyone is singing kumbaya, you have to get rid of the individual.

Wrong. Anyone, with a bit of optimism, believe that humans are perfectables. Idealists AND materialists. The difference between the two is how people see human behaviors and social relationships :

- Idealists think that the world = Ideas > Behaviors > Change
- Materialists think that the world = Structures > Change > Behaviors

Idealists believe that humans are perfectable throught improving their own behavior through the power of self development.

Materialists on the other hand believe that humans are shaped by the material conditions of their existence and thus are perfectable through improving their systems and social structures.

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Your belief in free will and your missunderstanding of both materialism and idealism makes you think that what leftists want is to control people from the top in order to force change their behavior.

But it's nothing like that. While yes, the goal is to change the behaviors, the way we do it is by changing what are shaping us to do bad things to begin with not force a control

Which is exactly what I proposed on this forum. You can check, I proposed very little change on the moderation (outside more awareness of you lot), BUT what I pushed is for system that would reward positive behavior instead of pushing system that would reward negative ones.

 

[Uncle Van]

Wrong. Anyone, with a bit of optimism, believe that humans are perfectables. Idealists AND materialists. The difference between the two is how people see human behaviors and social relationships :

- Idealists think that the world = Ideas > Behaviors > Change
- Materialists think that the world = Structures > Change > Behaviors

Idealists believe that humans are perfectable throught improving their own behavior through the power of self development.

Materialists on the other hand believe that humans are shaped by the material conditions of their existence and thus are perfectable through improving their systems and social structures.

---------------

Your belief in free will and your missunderstanding of both materialism and idealism makes you think that what leftists want is to control people from the top in order to force change their behavior.

But it's nothing like that. While yes, the goal is to change the behaviors, the way we do it is by changing what are shaping us to do bad things to begin with not force a control

Which is exactly what I proposed on this forum. You can check, I proposed very little change on the moderation (outside more awareness of you lot), BUT what I pushed is for system that would reward positive behavior instead of pushing system that would reward negative ones.

I didn't say anything about leftist. You say you've changed, but you still rely on assuming things about people in an attempt to corner them morally, the #1 reason people choose not to listen to you.

This is nothing but your personal opinions and wants. Your very own individualism you could say.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]