I'm talking about the inherence of violence that is false. Killing stuff to survive doesn't make one inherently violent, it's a simple material necessity. You should be careful using evo-psy and pre-neolithical societies to justify bad political takes. Primitive human societies were actually a lot less violent and pushed toward less domination systems than today.

If anything, what prehistoric groups can teach us, it's the value of shared ressources/task and group management through needs.


Which is exactly what I'm telling you. Violence is not a question of intelligence, it's a question of domination.

As such, people with empathy and intelligence can be violent, rape or murder because they can.

The point is : The problem of violence is not our nature, it's our systems.


No. You took anthropology and twisted it to make a point about human nature. Yes the brain most likely developped because of the accesibilities to more calories and a change of diet, but it didn't make us violent. Simply more conscious and intelligent.



The first step to understand horrible action in order to stop them is to stop dehumanizing ourselves or the people who commit these actions.

Human who do horrible stuff are human like me and you, not less intelligent and not less wired. While they might dehumanize their victims, they will empathize with their own group just as well as you or me.

So the first step to stop these behavior is to stop treating people who do horrible stuff like monsters that appear out of nowhere and understand that they are every day humans that act based on a combinaison of material interests and behaviors related to domination systems..
Primitive humans societies were less violent? Brother we have proof of actual cannibalism amongst primtivie humans lmao

This is a simple case of selective bias. We have 0 idea what kind of warfare they engaged with each other because we don’t have any historical records of it. All we can do is look at bones and a lot of them have proof of human to human violence
 
Members of the Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power) party on the Knesset National Security Committee wore noose-shaped pins during a discussion on a bill to execute Palestinian detainees.
Makes me fucking sick to be (forcibly) associated with ghoulish shit like this…wait…Jews wearing yellow-colored symbols of hatred and racial discrimination…I think I’ve seen something like this before…can’t quite remember how it turned out last time…



 
Primitive humans societies were less violent? Brother we have proof of actual cannibalism amongst primtivie humans lmao
Indeed. And we have proof of actual out group cooperation also and deep shared and organized in-groups. This is not a case for the inherent violence of humans.

And if you think cannibalism is bad, wait until I teach you a things or two about the horror that can be done under capitalism..

Humans are social sponges. Meaning that they will act through material interests based on their material condition of existence and will picked on the behavior related to the social domination system they live in.

Nothing more, nothing less. We are not violent or bad by nature. We are not good either. We are a potential of both.


Makes me fucking sick to be (forcibly) associated with ghoulish shit like this…wait…Jews wearing yellow-colored symbols of hatred and racial discrimination…I think I’ve seen something like this before…can’t quite remember how it turned out last time…
Don't worry, the world can clearly make the difference between zionist and jews now. (and I think.. frankly, that we collectively learned something from history, and this makes me happy)

As for them.. yeah.. crazy how they repeat everything..
 
Don't worry, the world can clearly make the difference between zionist and jews now. (and I think.. frankly, that we collectively learned something from history, and this makes me happy)

As for them.. yeah.. crazy how they repeat everything..
One thing I absolutely do NOT trust the world to do is make the distinction between Jews and Zionists, that’s kinda what’s gotten us into this whole fucking mess in the first place…it’s especially hard to tell when the oppressed suddenly become the oppressors, most people I’ve seen think it’s great that Jews are the ones committing war crimes for a change after centuries of being the victims of same :risicheck:
 
Here we go again with “capitalism bad”. It’s impressive how hard you try to push the same trite argument in unrelated conversations :suresure:

we should make a bingo card @AverageBuggyEnjoyer
If you prefer we can talk about any other systems. But it would be more rationnal for you to look at the difference between our logic:

- You think people do bad because they bad by nature.
- I think people do bad because of domination systems, material interests and material conditions

EVEN in the case where you would not understand what I say or not believe me, you should understand that you would gain a lot by listening to me here as my vision is filled with the optimism and complexity that yours is completely lacking.


Logiko is a fucking robot that's obsessed with stroking it's own ego
Or you could simply say "I don't understand, please explain more".


One thing I absolutely do NOT trust the world to do is make the distinction between Jews and Zionists, that’s kinda what’s gotten us into this whole fucking mess in the first place…it’s especially hard to tell when the oppressed suddenly become the oppressors, most people I’ve seen think it’s great that Jews are the ones committing war crimes for a change after centuries of being the victims of same :risicheck:
I don't know, maybe we look at different things, but in the big protest and manifestations of political understanding and actions or empathy, I see a real understanding of what zionism is.

I'm obviously talking about the left here. Most rightists are not even on the "there is a genocide happening" step yet.
 
If you prefer we can talk about any other systems. But it would be more rationnal for you to look at the difference between our logic:

- You think people do bad because they bad by nature.
- I think people do bad because of domination systems, material interests and material conditions

EVEN in the case where you would not understand what I say or not believe me, you should understand that you would gain a lot by listening to me here as my vision is filled with the optimism and complexity that yours is completely lacking.



Or you could simply say "I don't understand, please explain more".



I don't know, maybe we look at different things, but in the big protest and manifestations of political understanding and actions or empathy, I see a real understanding of what zionism is.

I'm obviousely talking about the left here. Most rightists are not even on the "there is a genocide happening" step yet.
You were just ranting about how we need to treat rapists/pedophiles/murderers/etc. like people lol.
 
If you prefer we can talk about any other systems. But it would be more rationnal for you to look at the difference between our logic:

- You think people do bad because they bad by nature.
- I think people do bad because of domination systems, material interests and material conditions
I don’t think people are bad, I think morality is subjective and violence isn’t always morally bad,

We are predispose to do bad things because we have hundreds of thousands of years of doing so in our genetic code. It’s why an enraged gorilla can’t even kill an old lady, yet a 10 year old boy is easily capable of murder
 
You were just ranting about how we need to treat rapists/pedophiles/murderers/etc. like people lol.
No. I was saying how you need to understand the world through systems rather than the result of individual behavior first. The humanization will come as a result of this switch. It's up to you to understand what your vision of others means for your vision of the world and how this vision can impact our society.

Because what can be said for "bad" people, can also be switch to talk about "good" people. Allowing your vision to see the systems instead of individuals first will make you understand how to create systems to perpetuate the good and make a real change

.. Instead of simply being surprised when someone do something horrible and doing nothing more than calling them monsters.


We predispose to do bad things because we have hundreds of thousands of years of doing so in our genetic code
Being able to do bad thing if necessary because of biases or evolutionnary urge to survive is completely different as being inherently violent or bad.

We are neither. We can do bad, we can do good. Basing a political discussion based on the notion that we are necessarily or inherently violent is a dangerous slip that can lead toward horrible systems. Our focus should be on systems. It's important.

The only way I know how to simplify this concept to the maximum is this:



As individual, the rotation influence our individual path. We can break out of the circle only partly but the circle (the system) will continue. If you want to talk about violence it's this way : Violence, in our societies, CAN be the momentum and the rotating direction of this group.

It's a social phenomenon conditioned by the material condition of the group (the system, the number of individuals, the rotation, the momentum, the strenght of each bonds etc.)

Understanding this is fundamental to understand politics.
 
No. I was saying how you need to understand the world through systems rather than the result of individual behavior first. The humanization will come as a result of this switch. It's up to you to understand what your vision of others means for your vision of the world and how this vision can impact our society.

Because what can be said for "bad" people, can also be switch to talk about "good" people. Allowing your vision to see the systems instead of individuals first will make you understand how to create systems to perpetuate the good and make a real change

.. Instead of simply being surprised when someone do something horrible and doing nothing more than calling them monsters.



Being able to do bad thing if necessary because of biases or evolutionnary urge to survive is completely different as being inherently violent or bad.

We are neither. We can do bad, we can do good. Basing a political discussion based on the notion that we are necessarily or inherently violent is a dangerous slip that can lead toward horrible systems. Our focus should be on systems. It's important.

The only way I know how to simplify this concept to the maximum is this:



As individual, the rotation influence our individual path. We can break out of the circle only partly but the circle (the system) will continue. If you want to talk about violence it's this way : Violence, in our societies, CAN be the momentum and the rotating direction of this group.

It's a social phenomenon conditioned by the material condition of the group (the system, the number of individuals, the rotation, the momentum, the strenght of each bonds etc.)

Understanding this is fundamental to understand politics.
But systems do not always make a person a certain way. You can still come out as a good person despite being raised in a bad system. This is exactly what happened with me, I was raised by people who believe queer people and women are inferior yet I don't believe that myself.
 
Don't worry, the world can clearly make the difference between zionist and jews now. (and I think.. frankly, that we collectively learned something from history, and this makes me happy)

As for them.. yeah.. crazy how they repeat everything..
One thing I absolutely do NOT trust the world to do is make the distinction between Jews and Zionists, that’s kinda what’s gotten us into this whole fucking mess in the first place…it’s especially hard to tell when the oppressed suddenly become the oppressors, most people I’ve seen think it’s great that Jews are the ones committing war crimes for a change after centuries of being the victims of same :risicheck:
The trouble is, the difference between a Zionist and a Jew tbh becomes negligible when you’re speaking about Israelis.

Jews in diaspora have varying connections to Israel. Many strongly identify as Zionist, but many don’t give a shit about middle eastern politics, some are even outspoken critics of Israel.

But it’s different in Israel. They have a highly nationalistic culture, with every citizen serving in the military. What’s more, a lot of Israeli families fled antisemitism in Europe(back in the 1900s when it was bad) or the Muslim world. They see Israel as their only home. And they certainly don’t want to live in a country where the majority is the same folks they’ve been at war with for decades.
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Honestly feel like it makes more sense to criticize Kahanism when talking about the specific ideology of folks like Ben Gvir, over Zionism.

As “Zionist” can basically refer to almost every Israeli Jew
 
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Uncle Van

Monké Don't Do Taxes
But systems do not always make a person a certain way. You can still come out as a good person despite being raised in a bad system. This is exactly what happened with me, I was raised by people who believe queer people and women are inferior yet I don't believe that myself.
Logiko is a hardcore materialist that doesnt accept any deviation from what he believes. He once claimed that anyone who had a bad encounter with cops wouldnt become one themselves yet here I am. He didn't like that response.
 
But systems do not always make a person a certain way. You can still come out as a good person despite being raised in a bad system.
Of course. If the opposite was true, there would be no hope of humans. But becoming a good person mean understanding that it is impossible to avoid the influences of the systems of dominations that we live around.

Because, here is the important part: We talk about rapist and murderers as if there were the ones who - unlike the rest - do very bad thing. But reality is different:



The reality of domination system is that depending on our material interests our lives our influences or educations or any other material conditions.. we are placing ourselves on different places on the scale but never forget:

We are ALL on the scale

And our places can go up, but they can also go down. This is why seeing rapists as monster is useless and will only confuse your understanding of the world. Humans all have the potential to do wrong and to do horribly bad things. It depends on many factors.

Politicization allows us to understand these factors.

This is exactly what happened with me, I was raised by people who believe queer people and women are inferior yet I don't believe that myself.
There is necessarily something that made you understand this. Perhaps you don't remember and it's ok. But you can't simply bypass the influence of your environment. There is necessarily something that influenced you to think the opposite way.

It could be as simple as a queer person saying hello to you in your youth.


He once claimed that anyone who had a bad encounter with cops wouldnt become one themselves yet here I am.
Van. Really. I'm sick of you constantly lying or twisting - specifically - my words when making a point.

So either you prove your point from now on and quote me the message either you shut it. But stop lying like a bad faith moderator, you are better than that. It's VERY unlikely that I said this sentence.

What probably happened, rather, is me saying something like "it is very unlikely for someone who has bad encounter with cops to become one themselves". Which would be much more rationnal and completely different from what you are trying to say.
 
Of course. If the opposite was true, there would be no hope of humans. But becoming a good person mean understanding that it is impossible to avoid the influences of the systems of dominations that we live around.

Because, here is the important part: We talk about rapist and murderers as if there were the ones who - unlike the rest - do very bad thing. But reality is different:



The reality of domination system is that depending on our material interests our lives our influences or educations or any other material conditions.. we are placing ourselves on different places on the scale but never forget:

We are ALL on the scale

And our places can go up, but they can also go down. This is why seeing rapists as monster is useless and will only confuse your understanding of the world. Humans all have the potential to do wrong and to do horribly bad things. It depends on many factors.

Politicization allows us to understand these factors.


There is necessarily something that made you understand this. Perhaps you don't remember and it's ok. But you can't simply bypass the influence of your environment. There is necessarily something that influenced you to think the opposite way.

It could be as simple as a queer person saying hello to you in your youth.



Van. Really. I'm sick of you constantly lying or twisting - specifically - my words when making a point.

So either you prove your point from now on and quote me the message either you shut it. But stop lying like a bad faith moderator, you are better than that. It's VERY unlikely that I said this sentence.

What probably happened, rather, is me saying something like "it is very unlikely for someone who has bad encounter with cops to become one themselves". Which would be much more rationnal and completely different from what you are trying to say.
The thing that you fail to understand is the context of these situations. Sure, you and I could do things like killing another person, but the context would definitely be far different from people who simply murder another person because they rubbed them the wrong way or because they enjoy killing others.
If I kill someone, it's because they tried to kill me or another person first. That's the only occasion where I'd be fine with killing someone.
Famed murderers like Ted Bundy, however, don't care about all that. The context for why they murder people is different from self defense, they actively get a thrill out of it and want to do it instead of feeling forced to. And that isn't acceptable.
 
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