Controversial General Political Discussion

[Monkey D Theories]

Don't worry, the world can clearly make the difference between zionist and jews now. (and I think.. frankly, that we collectively learned something from history, and this makes me happy)

As for them.. yeah.. crazy how they repeat everything..

One thing I absolutely do NOT trust the world to do is make the distinction between Jews and Zionists, that’s kinda what’s gotten us into this whole fucking mess in the first place…it’s especially hard to tell when the oppressed suddenly become the oppressors, most people I’ve seen think it’s great that Jews are the ones committing war crimes for a change after centuries of being the victims of same :risicheck:

The trouble is, the difference between a Zionist and a Jew tbh becomes negligible when you’re speaking about Israelis.

Jews in diaspora have varying connections to Israel. Many strongly identify as Zionist, but many don’t give a shit about middle eastern politics, some are even outspoken critics of Israel.

But it’s different in Israel. They have a highly nationalistic culture, with every citizen serving in the military. What’s more, a lot of Israeli families fled antisemitism in Europe(back in the 1900s when it was bad) or the Muslim world. They see Israel as their only home. And they certainly don’t want to live in a country where the majority is the same folks they’ve been at war with for decades.
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Honestly feel like it makes more sense to criticize Kahanism when talking about the specific ideology of folks like Ben Gvir, over Zionism.

As “Zionist” can basically refer to almost every Israeli Jew

 

[Uncle Van]

But systems do not always make a person a certain way. You can still come out as a good person despite being raised in a bad system. This is exactly what happened with me, I was raised by people who believe queer people and women are inferior yet I don't believe that myself.

Logiko is a hardcore materialist that doesnt accept any deviation from what he believes. He once claimed that anyone who had a bad encounter with cops wouldnt become one themselves yet here I am. He didn't like that response.

 

[Logiko]

But systems do not always make a person a certain way. You can still come out as a good person despite being raised in a bad system.

Of course. If the opposite was true, there would be no hope of humans. But becoming a good person mean understanding that it is impossible to avoid the influences of the systems of dominations that we live around.

Because, here is the important part: We talk about rapist and murderers as if there were the ones who - unlike the rest - do very bad thing. But reality is different:

The reality of domination system is that depending on our material interests our lives our influences or educations or any other material conditions.. we are placing ourselves on different places on the scale but never forget:

We are ALL on the scale

And our places can go up, but they can also go down. This is why seeing rapists as monster is useless and will only confuse your understanding of the world. Humans all have the potential to do wrong and to do horribly bad things. It depends on many factors.

Politicization allows us to understand these factors.

This is exactly what happened with me, I was raised by people who believe queer people and women are inferior yet I don't believe that myself.

There is necessarily something that made you understand this. Perhaps you don't remember and it's ok. But you can't simply bypass the influence of your environment. There is necessarily something that influenced you to think the opposite way.

It could be as simple as a queer person saying hello to you in your youth.

He once claimed that anyone who had a bad encounter with cops wouldnt become one themselves yet here I am.

Van. Really. I'm sick of you constantly lying or twisting - specifically - my words when making a point.

So either you prove your point from now on and quote me the message either you shut it. But stop lying like a bad faith moderator, you are better than that. It's VERY unlikely that I said this sentence.

What probably happened, rather, is me saying something like "it is very unlikely for someone who has bad encounter with cops to become one themselves". Which would be much more rationnal and completely different from what you are trying to say.

 

[Logiko]

But yeah, I'm a materialist. Which includes all deviations of your potential reasoning.

 

[Uncle Van]

What probably happened, rather, is me saying something like "it is very unlikely for someone who has bad encounter with cops to become one themselves". Which would be much more rationnal and completely different from what you are trying to say.

Calling me a liar when you yourself aren't sure about what you said?

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Of course. If the opposite was true, there would be no hope of humans. But becoming a good person mean understanding that it is impossible to avoid the influences of the systems of dominations that we live around.

Because, here is the important part: We talk about rapist and murderers as if there were the ones who - unlike the rest - do very bad thing. But reality is different:

The reality of domination system is that depending on our material interests our lives our influences or educations or any other material conditions.. we are placing ourselves on different places on the scale but never forget:

We are ALL on the scale

And our places can go up, but they can also go down. This is why seeing rapists as monster is useless and will only confuse your understanding of the world. Humans all have the potential to do wrong and to do horribly bad things. It depends on many factors.

Politicization allows us to understand these factors.


There is necessarily something that made you understand this. Perhaps you don't remember and it's ok. But you can't simply bypass the influence of your environment. There is necessarily something that influenced you to think the opposite way.

It could be as simple as a queer person saying hello to you in your youth.



Van. Really. I'm sick of you constantly lying or twisting - specifically - my words when making a point.

So either you prove your point from now on and quote me the message either you shut it. But stop lying like a bad faith moderator, you are better than that. It's VERY unlikely that I said this sentence.

What probably happened, rather, is me saying something like "it is very unlikely for someone who has bad encounter with cops to become one themselves". Which would be much more rationnal and completely different from what you are trying to say.

The thing that you fail to understand is the context of these situations. Sure, you and I could do things like killing another person, but the context would definitely be far different from people who simply murder another person because they rubbed them the wrong way or because they enjoy killing others.
If I kill someone, it's because they tried to kill me or another person first. That's the only occasion where I'd be fine with killing someone.
Famed murderers like Ted Bundy, however, don't care about all that. The context for why they murder people is different from self defense, they actively get a thrill out of it and want to do it instead of feeling forced to. And that isn't acceptable.

 

[Midnight Delight]

But yeah, I'm a materialist. Which includes all deviations of your potential reasoning.

Typical Trotskyism

 

[Uncle Van]

@Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier found it.

No. It's called "having good enough material conditions of existence"

If you were to be controlled every week of your life by the police because you are black in a poor neighborhood, you would also have only massive resentment in your mind.

Trust me on that.

Not only did I end up with no resentment, I became a popo myself. Gotta ease up on the assumptions there buddy

For a psychiatrized like me, it would be similar as getting out of a psychiatric institution where I was systematically violented just to apply for a post in the same institution a few years later.

Can see where a little mix up happened, but the context and point is exactly the same.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Typical Trotskyism

what's your political alignment anyway

 

[Logiko]

The thing that you fail to understand is the context of these situations.

I mostly care about the context mate. That's why I talk about material conditions and ethics so much. I don't think you understand just how much I care about the context.

Sure, you and I could do things like killing another person, but the context would definitely be far different from people who simply murder another person because they rubbed them the wrong way or because they enjoy killing others.

And there is context in both situation. Me killing someone for a specific context doesn't mean that there is no context in a situation where a rando kills someone because they "rub them the wrong way". In reality, there are many contextual factor related to domination systems that can explain this action.

But to understand that, what you know as "context" must be extended, because the context in this situation is much bigger than the situation itself.

If I kill someone, it's because they tried to kill me or another person first. That's the only occasion where I'd be fine with killing someone.

Oh, really? What If I told you that to save the entire humanity, you need to kill a racist supremacist ? Wouldn't you at least hesitate ?

The context for why they murder people is different from self defense, they actively get a thrill out of it and want to do it instead of feeling forced to. And that isn't acceptable.

You oppose an ethical action against an unethical one here. Why?

Of course killing in self defense is more justifiable than killing out of the blue. It's not even a question. The point that we are talking about here are unethical actions. And in the case of unethical actions, we are ALL on the scale. And there are many scales

When someone says "you are retarded", well they are creating an ableist climate, it's a form of violence against people like me. When they say "Trany", it's a form of cissexism, same for others forms of violences.

Nobody here is perfect, not even me, we are ALL on the scale, sometimes high, sometimes low, but we all participate in violence, simply because our system created this violence. People will be out of the scale the day there will be an education where these domination systems won't exist. But this day is nowhere near.

Saying "rapist or murderers or wife beaters are monsters" is the same as saying "they are on the scale, but not me".

Typical Trotskyism

Marxism*
Trotskyism, today, is too fuzy and confusionnistic to be a relevant label

Can see where a little mix up happened, but the context and point is exactly the same.

So you did twisted my words, but to a reasonnable ammount this time
Ok. I take that back







Ok, so you are a racialized man that:

- Lived in a poor neighborhood
- Was constantly harassed by the police weekly
- Faced the consequences of systemic racism on a daily basis

And..

You became a cop. A weapon of this system

Well... yeah..

Indeed, I failed to take that possibility of this kind of behavior into account. Which is crazy since Fanon made a text specifically about it, something I mentionned clearly arond that time. Lucky mistake.

 

[Midnight Delight]

Trotskyism
Neoliberalism
Salafism

The Materialism trio

 

[Logiko]

Trotskyism
Neoliberalism
Salafism

The Materialism trio

Kamoulox?
(chouffinism)

 

[Midnight Delight]

If only Uncle Joe was still around

 

[Uncle Van]

So you did twisted my words, but to a reasonnable ammount this time
Ok. I take that back







Ok, so you are a racialized man that:

- Lived in a poor neighborhood
- Was constantly harassed by the police weekly
- Faced the consequences of systemic racism on a daily basis

And..

You became a cop. A weapon of this system

Well... yeah..

Indeed, I failed to take that possibility of this kind of behavior into account. Which is crazy since Fanon made a text specifically about it, something I mentionned clearly arond that time. Lucky mistake.

Generalization much? You're again showing your lack of understanding of nuance, society, and the individual.

 

[Jew D. Boy]

The trouble is, the difference between a Zionist and a Jew tbh becomes negligible when you’re speaking about Israelis.

Jews in diaspora have varying connections to Israel. Many strongly identify as Zionist, but many don’t give a shit about middle eastern politics, some are even outspoken critics of Israel.

But it’s different in Israel. They have a highly nationalistic culture, with every citizen serving in the military. What’s more, a lot of Israeli families fled antisemitism in Europe(back in the 1900s when it was bad) or the Muslim world. They see Israel as their only home. And they certainly don’t want to live in a country where the majority is the same folks they’ve been at war with for decades.
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Honestly feel like it makes more sense to criticize Kahanism when talking about the specific ideology of folks like Ben Gvir, over Zionism.

As “Zionist” can basically refer to almost every Israeli Jew

That’s kinda the point, isn’t it?? Israelis are Zionists purely based on their geographical location and allegiance, being Jewish is almost besides the point for them except when they can use that as a shield from criticism…those of us outside of that place can look at it differently and see the chinks in Bibi’s armor, but even then, the two concepts have been conflated so much that most Jews wanna defend an illegally occupied state that they don’t have any real connection with.

 

[Logiko]

Generalization much? You're again showing your lack of understanding of nuance, society, and the individual.

What generalization? You mean that cops being a weapon of the system?

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

I mostly care about the context mate. That's why I talk about material conditions and ethics so much. I don't think you understand just how much I care about the context.


And there is context in both situation. Me killing someone for a specific context doesn't mean that there is no context in a situation where a rando kills someone because they "rub them the wrong way". In reality, there are many contextual factor related to domination systems that can explain this action.

But to understand that, what you know as "context" must be extended, because the context in this situation is much bigger than the situation itself.



Oh, really? What If I told you that to save the entire humanity, you need to kill a racist supremacist ? Wouldn't you at least hesitate ?



You oppose an ethical action against an unethical one here. Why?

Of course killing in self defense is more justifiable than killing out of the blue. It's not even a question. The point that we are talking about here are unethical actions. And in the case of unethical actions, we are ALL on the scale. And there are many scales

When someone says "you are retarded", well they are creating an ableist climate, it's a form of violence against people like me. When they say "Trany", it's a form of cissexism, same for others forms of violences.

Nobody here is perfect, not even me, we are ALL on the scale, sometimes high, sometimes low, but we all participate in violence, simply because our system created this violence. People will be out of the scale the day there will be an education where these domination systems won't exist. But this day is nowhere near.

Saying "rapist or murderers or wife beaters are monsters" is the same as saying "they are on the scale, but not me".



Marxism*
Trotskyism, today, is too fuzy and confusionnistic to be a relevant label


So you did twisted my words, but to a reasonnable ammount this time
Ok. I take that back







Ok, so you are a racialized man that:

- Lived in a poor neighborhood
- Was constantly harassed by the police weekly
- Faced the consequences of systemic racism on a daily basis

And..

You became a cop. A weapon of this system

Well... yeah..

Indeed, I failed to take that possibility of this kind of behavior into account. Which is crazy since Fanon made a text specifically about it, something I mentionned clearly arond that time. Lucky mistake.

I don't care for your dumb little hypotheticals about me having to save the world by killing a dude (which I would do, btw, one life gone for the lives of billions of others to stay is a small price to pay). They're not relevant to the topic at hand.
People who beat their wife, or rape children, or mass murder people, or whatever else, they aren't humans. Maybe they are humans in a literal sense, but from a psychological/emotional standpoint, they aren't. They don't have the same logical tendencies as normal human beings, their brains are warped beyond repair.
Also, you shouldn't say slurs against trans people like that. I'm not calling you transphobic or anything, but I just wouldn't do it, personally. There's a reason why I never say the n word, hard r or not, here despite me being african american.

 

[Midnight Delight]

People who beat their wife, or rape children, or mass murder people, or whatever else, they aren't humans. Maybe they are humans in a literal sense, but from a psychological/emotional standpoint, they aren't. They don't have the same logical tendencies as normal human beings, their brains are warped beyond repair.

You have a better view of humanity than me in that case tbh

Because that was "normal" for 99% of human history,

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

You have a better view of humanity than me in that case tbh

Because that was "normal" for 99% of human history,

Slavery was also "normal" for a good while. I don't have a good view of you in general, but I think it'd be low for even you to think slavery was fine just because the majority of people either supported it or turned a blind eye to it back then.
Me and you both know you likely won't say that. So let's not use "it was seen as normal for a large part of history" as an excuse.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

People who beat their wife, or rape children, or mass murder people, or whatever else, they aren't humans. Maybe they are humans in a literal sense, but from a psychological/emotional standpoint, they aren't. They don't have the same logical tendencies as normal human beings, their brains are warped beyond repair.

You’re just redefining what is human to exclude people you (understandably) dislike