Powers & Abilities ACoC strength level
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Again, the manga explains characters cannot increase the strength of their CoC by training their CoC. It can only grow stronger by the user growing stronger.
Characters can only train CoC to become better at controlling it.
That means you cannot determine the strength of a character's CoC by how strong they are with their CoC. You have to look at their strength without CoC. The stronger a character is, excluding CoC haki, the stronger their CoC haki is.
The SBS doesn't debunk anything I said. Nor does it go against the manga. Rayleigh saying people usually have natural affinity for a specific type of haki and Oda confirming it in SBS just means character usually have a haki they will have an easier time learning than the others. It has nothing to do with the strength of their haki. That just hard work versus natural talent and hard work to beat out natural power.
WE don't know everything Shanks can excluding ACoC. So to say ACoCless Shanks can never beat ACoCless Kaido is just an assumption. Compared ACoCless Kaido to rooftop Zoro. Do you think ACoCless Kaido is much stronger than Zoro? And if he is how much?
Zoro's offensive power, defensive power and fighting skills pushes ACoCless Kaido to extreme diff at bare minimum. There's a great argument to make Zoro can win.
Plus Shanks is better at using ACoC than Kaido. The manga states characters can't train to control their ACoC. Even if Kaido's ACoC is stronger than Shanks' ACoC, Shanks' ACoC skills and easily makes up the difference
Characters can only train CoC to become better at controlling it.
That means you cannot determine the strength of a character's CoC by how strong they are with their CoC. You have to look at their strength without CoC. The stronger a character is, excluding CoC haki, the stronger their CoC haki is.
The SBS doesn't debunk anything I said. Nor does it go against the manga. Rayleigh saying people usually have natural affinity for a specific type of haki and Oda confirming it in SBS just means character usually have a haki they will have an easier time learning than the others. It has nothing to do with the strength of their haki. That just hard work versus natural talent and hard work to beat out natural power.
WE don't know everything Shanks can excluding ACoC. So to say ACoCless Shanks can never beat ACoCless Kaido is just an assumption. Compared ACoCless Kaido to rooftop Zoro. Do you think ACoCless Kaido is much stronger than Zoro? And if he is how much?
Zoro's offensive power, defensive power and fighting skills pushes ACoCless Kaido to extreme diff at bare minimum. There's a great argument to make Zoro can win.
Plus Shanks is better at using ACoC than Kaido. The manga states characters can't train to control their ACoC. Even if Kaido's ACoC is stronger than Shanks' ACoC, Shanks' ACoC skills and easily makes up the difference
Again, the manga explains characters cannot increase the strength of their CoC by training their CoC. It can only grow stronger by the user growing stronger.
Characters can only train CoC to become better at controlling it.
That means you cannot determine the strength of a character's CoC by how strong they are with their CoC. You have to look at their strength without CoC. The stronger a character is, excluding CoC haki, the stronger their CoC haki is.
The SBS doesn't debunk anything I said. Nor does it go against the manga. Rayleigh saying people usually have natural affinity for a specific type of haki and Oda confirming it in SBS just means character usually have a haki they will have an easier time learning than the others. It has nothing to do with the strength of their haki. That just hard work versus natural talent and hard work to beat out natural power.
WE don't know everything Shanks can excluding ACoC. So to say ACoCless Shanks can never beat ACoCless Kaido is just an assumption. Compared ACoCless Kaido to rooftop Zoro. Do you think ACoCless Kaido is much stronger than Zoro? And if he is how much?
Zoro's offensive power, defensive power and fighting skills pushes ACoCless Kaido to extreme diff at bare minimum. There's a great argument to make Zoro can win.
Plus Shanks is better at using ACoC than Kaido. The manga states characters can't train to control their ACoC. Even if Kaido's ACoC is stronger than Shanks' ACoC, Shanks' ACoC skills and easily makes up the difference
Characters can only train CoC to become better at controlling it.
That means you cannot determine the strength of a character's CoC by how strong they are with their CoC. You have to look at their strength without CoC. The stronger a character is, excluding CoC haki, the stronger their CoC haki is.
The SBS doesn't debunk anything I said. Nor does it go against the manga. Rayleigh saying people usually have natural affinity for a specific type of haki and Oda confirming it in SBS just means character usually have a haki they will have an easier time learning than the others. It has nothing to do with the strength of their haki. That just hard work versus natural talent and hard work to beat out natural power.
WE don't know everything Shanks can excluding ACoC. So to say ACoCless Shanks can never beat ACoCless Kaido is just an assumption. Compared ACoCless Kaido to rooftop Zoro. Do you think ACoCless Kaido is much stronger than Zoro? And if he is how much?
Zoro's offensive power, defensive power and fighting skills pushes ACoCless Kaido to extreme diff at bare minimum. There's a great argument to make Zoro can win.
Plus Shanks is better at using ACoC than Kaido. The manga states characters can't train to control their ACoC. Even if Kaido's ACoC is stronger than Shanks' ACoC, Shanks' ACoC skills and easily makes up the difference
Rayleigh says the only way to strengthen it is through your own personal growth.
But characters have affinities for specific haki types as Rayleigh and Oda said. They don't start off with the same level of CoC to begin with.
There's no correlation between overall strength and aCoC strength. Yes stronger characters tend to have stronger CoC as they've completed their growth but Shanks having stronger aCoC than Kaido does NOT mean he is stronger than him if you exclude CoC. It means Shanks has an affinity towards CoC that is stronger than Kaido's.
If you think overall strength excluding CoC determines your CoC level then you better pray BB never gets it because good luck explaining how he wouldnt have BY FAR the strongest CoC in the manga with 3 fruits to boost his overall strength
Roger vs Whitebeard completely disprove this. The peak of Whitebeards power is touted as being able to destroy the World. He can create Earthquakes that can be felt on the other side of the planet. Roger can do anything even remotely close to that, even with AdCoC. However, him and Whitebeard's AdCoC is equal.
And I find it hilarious that you are using just physical strength to justify your reasoning. One second it's the overall strength and abilities of the person, and the next it's "well G4 is as physically as strong as Kaido." You can't use Luffy at his peak at the time (G4) and compare it to a watered down Kaido. It you take both of them at their peaks, there is still a huge gap between Kaido and G4 Luffy due to their abilities. That's the whole reason Oda had to have Luffy go G5 in order to beat Kaido.
You guys are mistaken by what Rayleigh said. Rayleigh explains that CoC haki, is the embodiment of the users spirit. So when he says it grows when the user gets stronger, he's talking about the stronger their spirit/will becomes the stronger their Conquerors Haki becomes.
Now could it be possible that the stronger someone becomes, the more confident they become, and thus their spirit grows as well? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean you have to be at equal levels of strength, or even strong at all to have a high level of willpower. Usopp is a prime example of this. He was able to withstand Rayleigh's CoC in the auction house, despite being 10000 times weaker than Rayleigh. That's because even though Usopp is a weakling, he has an extremely high level of willpower.
And I find it hilarious that you are using just physical strength to justify your reasoning. One second it's the overall strength and abilities of the person, and the next it's "well G4 is as physically as strong as Kaido." You can't use Luffy at his peak at the time (G4) and compare it to a watered down Kaido. It you take both of them at their peaks, there is still a huge gap between Kaido and G4 Luffy due to their abilities. That's the whole reason Oda had to have Luffy go G5 in order to beat Kaido.
You guys are mistaken by what Rayleigh said. Rayleigh explains that CoC haki, is the embodiment of the users spirit. So when he says it grows when the user gets stronger, he's talking about the stronger their spirit/will becomes the stronger their Conquerors Haki becomes.
Now could it be possible that the stronger someone becomes, the more confident they become, and thus their spirit grows as well? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean you have to be at equal levels of strength, or even strong at all to have a high level of willpower. Usopp is a prime example of this. He was able to withstand Rayleigh's CoC in the auction house, despite being 10000 times weaker than Rayleigh. That's because even though Usopp is a weakling, he has an extremely high level of willpower.
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kaido's haki literally got stronger during the fight, its possible to just have straight up stronger haki.
base luffy split the skies with 1 fist vs hybrid kaido.
+ we are slowly learning about some random haki magic that shanks has, like "observation killer". 99% likely roger had some haki magic shit to match wb's gura, garps physical strength etc.
base luffy split the skies with 1 fist vs hybrid kaido.
+ we are slowly learning about some random haki magic that shanks has, like "observation killer". 99% likely roger had some haki magic shit to match wb's gura, garps physical strength etc.
Roger vs Whitebeard doesnt disprove this.
Just because Gura is destructive, it doesnt mean Roger has to match that.
It doesnt work that way, no other ability is as destructive as Gura so it is not scaled by destructivity when it comes down to how strong an user is without aCoC. For example, Luffy's ID may as well be more effective than Gura on a humanoid target, he doesnt have to match its destructivity to the environment.
Just like other characters cant match Luffy, Kaido, Big Mom, Sanjuan Wolf and Sengoku in raw strength, doesnt mean their overall strength is based on that alone. However, we can compare Luffy and Kaido as they are very similar combatants. Very similar in damage tolerance, both mythical zoans, both capable of using large forms, both focused on enlarging their muscles and so on.
Luffy's aCoC is the same, regardless of the gear.
Only when he grows stronger does his aCoC grow stronger and that has happened only once.
When he awakened. There is no difference between 1010 Luffy's aCoC and skysplit Luffy. Nothing has changed, he didnt grow.
Just because Gura is destructive, it doesnt mean Roger has to match that.
It doesnt work that way, no other ability is as destructive as Gura so it is not scaled by destructivity when it comes down to how strong an user is without aCoC. For example, Luffy's ID may as well be more effective than Gura on a humanoid target, he doesnt have to match its destructivity to the environment.
Just like other characters cant match Luffy, Kaido, Big Mom, Sanjuan Wolf and Sengoku in raw strength, doesnt mean their overall strength is based on that alone. However, we can compare Luffy and Kaido as they are very similar combatants. Very similar in damage tolerance, both mythical zoans, both capable of using large forms, both focused on enlarging their muscles and so on.
Luffy's aCoC is the same, regardless of the gear.
Only when he grows stronger does his aCoC grow stronger and that has happened only once.
When he awakened. There is no difference between 1010 Luffy's aCoC and skysplit Luffy. Nothing has changed, he didnt grow.
Pre G5 Luffy's overall strength is not comparable to Kaido's overall strength. When you look at Luffy who peaks at G4, there is still a huge gap between Kaido's peak.
You can remove AdCoC from Kaido completely, and he would still comfortably beat Pre-G5 Luffy, who has AdCoC..... That's how big of a difference their overall strength is prior to G5.
CoC is the embodiment of the users will. Luffy has an absurd level of willpower. That is why his CoC can compete with Kaido's, who also has an absurd level of willpower, despite the vast difference in their strength at the time.
You can remove AdCoC from Kaido completely, and he would still comfortably beat Pre-G5 Luffy, who has AdCoC..... That's how big of a difference their overall strength is prior to G5.
CoC is the embodiment of the users will. Luffy has an absurd level of willpower. That is why his CoC can compete with Kaido's, who also has an absurd level of willpower, despite the vast difference in their strength at the time.
I agree but this is Oda we are talking about. That is how he structured the struggle between them.
Made pre-G5 Luffy match Kaido despite not being comparable to him, as you say.
Then he made a mistake with Kaido's aCoC growing stronger in Drunken states, as if he never drank before and grew into Drunken states right there and then. Even if we ignore that for the sake of fight structure bending the knee to narrative, then Luffy's aCoC matched and possibly even surpassed Kaido's after Awakening, because Kaido wasnt awakened...
Actually, if we remove aCoC from Kaido, Luffy would be stronger, aside from Blazing Bagua which he cannot match without giantification available. Other than that, Luffy would have the upper hand the whole time. He would eventually lose though, because Kaido's stamina is something else while Luffy is a 20 minute performer.
I agree with your last part but the way Oda structured the aCoC struggle between them, as I described in first part of this post is simply how Oda chose to do it narratively. Despite being technically false... And there is also Rayleigh's line about CoC growing stronger as the user grows stronger... And there is also another thing we know from the beginning, Zoro's willpower is superior to Luffy's. Are you willing to admit Zoro's CoC superior to Luffy's due to that or are you gonna make an exception here?
Made pre-G5 Luffy match Kaido despite not being comparable to him, as you say.
Then he made a mistake with Kaido's aCoC growing stronger in Drunken states, as if he never drank before and grew into Drunken states right there and then. Even if we ignore that for the sake of fight structure bending the knee to narrative, then Luffy's aCoC matched and possibly even surpassed Kaido's after Awakening, because Kaido wasnt awakened...
Actually, if we remove aCoC from Kaido, Luffy would be stronger, aside from Blazing Bagua which he cannot match without giantification available. Other than that, Luffy would have the upper hand the whole time. He would eventually lose though, because Kaido's stamina is something else while Luffy is a 20 minute performer.
I agree with your last part but the way Oda structured the aCoC struggle between them, as I described in first part of this post is simply how Oda chose to do it narratively. Despite being technically false... And there is also Rayleigh's line about CoC growing stronger as the user grows stronger... And there is also another thing we know from the beginning, Zoro's willpower is superior to Luffy's. Are you willing to admit Zoro's CoC superior to Luffy's due to that or are you gonna make an exception here?