Speculations Akainu The Last Hope
- Thread starter Blazing Lion
- Start date
We are explicitly shown Blackbeard telling Kuzan "You are a free man". Kuzan's fate is not necessarily (or even probably) tied to Blackbeard, so I don't see a reason to downplay Kuzan's importance because of that (yet).
That's what I am saying, Yonko are gatekeepers themselves, so they are in the same box, as far as that is concerned.
That's what I am saying, Yonko are gatekeepers themselves, so they are in the same box, as far as that is concerned.
As far as that is concerned, yes. But that doesn't automatically mean that a Yonko = Admiral. Fact is that each of the Yonkou is ruler of an empire for himself - an empire which needs to be able to individually contend with the Navy - including all the admirals - because it would not get help from any of the other Yonkou. Basically, if average Admiral was equal to average Yonko, there will have been no Yonkou, because Navy will have crushed them long time ago.
1 Yonko Empire =~ Navy + 7 Warlords. While I don't think anybody but Whitebeard could have made the Navy pull out all the stops the way they did at Marineford, each Yonko has to be strong enough that going after him will have left the Navy basically helpless against other threats, or at least, severely undermanned. And that means they have to be well above Admiral level, as we see that Navy can in fact spare an Admiral - or even two - to go after even pirates of far lower rank than a Yonko.
1 Yonko Empire =~ Navy + 7 Warlords. While I don't think anybody but Whitebeard could have made the Navy pull out all the stops the way they did at Marineford, each Yonko has to be strong enough that going after him will have left the Navy basically helpless against other threats, or at least, severely undermanned. And that means they have to be well above Admiral level, as we see that Navy can in fact spare an Admiral - or even two - to go after even pirates of far lower rank than a Yonko.
Nice try lmao. Come back when an admiral gets a strongest title, throws away the yonko title, makes a literal clown another yonko just by being his subordinate, gets a 3.6 billion bounty, considered as a legendary rival of Shanks, grouped with Whitebeard by Oda etc etc. The list goes on.
You people are not reading properly. You read a story where Greenbull gets a blackblade, all admirals have CoC, etc. In your version, Akainu is the final enemy, not a pirate lmao.
You people are not reading properly. You read a story where Greenbull gets a blackblade, all admirals have CoC, etc. In your version, Akainu is the final enemy, not a pirate lmao.
It was nice not responding at any of my points save one (Akainu being the final enemy, which I did not say). I said the final enemy is not a pirate (is Imu) and that Akanu vs Luffy is sure, Luffy even have Akainu's scar, and in OP scar are and always will be quite self explanatory (Shanks-BB, Kaido-Oden, Zoro-Mihawk etc and yes, unfortunately, Akainu-Luffy)
But again, I said that I did not want to convince anybody. We'll see.
But again, I said that I did not want to convince anybody. We'll see.
This is 2023. The idea that 1 Yonko crew is meant to be equivalent to the entire Navy was silly from the start and is just worse even now.
We just had a portion of the Warlords form a Yonko crew, so that idea is simply dead and buried.
The Yonko just have to be enough of an issue that the Navy would need a sizeable force to deal with them that’s not worth the effort.
At the end of the day, it’s the Navy that has to be able to deal with all of the Yonko, hence the established balance. That being said, obviously they would need individuals to contend with them, otherwise the Yonko could just do whatever they want.
The “they would just wipe out the Yonko” excuse has been addressed to death at this point.
The entire point has always been that the top tiers are comparable, so none of them want any of the others in their business. That’s why it’s just common practice to send an Admiral to break up 2 Great Pirates clashing, whether in the past or present.
We even have the current arc with 1 Admiral and a fleet dealing with 1 Yonko. It should be obvious that the entire Navy & Warlords would have simply been overkill.
When did Oda say any such thing? Doesn’t having to lie or make up stuff all the time just show the claim is empty to begin with? That effort wouldn’t be needed otherwise.
If the Yonko are so strong why they didn’t stop the Admirals long time ago instead of hiding in their homes?
We just had a portion of the Warlords form a Yonko crew, so that idea is simply dead and buried.
The Yonko just have to be enough of an issue that the Navy would need a sizeable force to deal with them that’s not worth the effort.
At the end of the day, it’s the Navy that has to be able to deal with all of the Yonko, hence the established balance. That being said, obviously they would need individuals to contend with them, otherwise the Yonko could just do whatever they want.
The “they would just wipe out the Yonko” excuse has been addressed to death at this point.
The entire point has always been that the top tiers are comparable, so none of them want any of the others in their business. That’s why it’s just common practice to send an Admiral to break up 2 Great Pirates clashing, whether in the past or present.
We even have the current arc with 1 Admiral and a fleet dealing with 1 Yonko. It should be obvious that the entire Navy & Warlords would have simply been overkill.
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When did Oda say any such thing? Doesn’t having to lie or make up stuff all the time just show the claim is empty to begin with? That effort wouldn’t be needed otherwise.
If the Yonko are so strong why they didn’t stop the Admirals long time ago instead of hiding in their homes?
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I never said that 1 Yonko crew can match the entire Navy in war, so you can rest that particular horse. Whitebeard Pirates and their allies did manage to (barely) match the entire Navy + the Warlords for a time, but even old Whitebeard may well be on a different level compared to the other Yonkou. FFS, guy was basically uncrowned Pirate King in his prime, and even in his old age he firmly held the door closed to any upcoming prospective candidates. And Whitebeard Pirates lost in the end. (On the flip side, Whitebeard couldn't even tap into his Conqueror's Haki, so one may argue for him being weaker than other Yonkos at Marineford - but personally I don't think that is the case). Yet Whitebeard defeated Akainu. And after Whitebeard himself died, we saw that Akainu could not defeat Whitebeard Commanders on his own - he defeated Curiel, but failed to advance one inch from where the fight had started.
Of course, how applicable Marineford really is is not clear. Both sides were kinda holding back, after all, and Whitebeard was essentially hakiless (his Observation Haki was so crap he didn't notice Squard).
"Portion of Warlords" is mostly Mihawk, who is the World's Strongest Swordsman and likely match for an Emperor himself. Mihawk who joined the Warlords simply because he wanted to live in peace instead of being chased around by the Navy, and otherwise gave no shit about what the Navy wanted. And when we are at the topic of warlords, Doflamingo didn't mind fighting Fujitora and didn't seem that scared of Aokiji (though that was clearly a fight he didn't want to get into), yet even the mere prospect of an angry Kaido made him shit his pants. And of course, if Admiral = Yonkou, why did Navy need to bust out seven Warlords on top of the four (really five) admirals against Whitebeard?
Even pre-timeskip Supernovas showed little fear when facing prospect of an Admiral arriving. Compare that to their reaction to Kaido.
Blackbeard has a former Admiral as his subordinate. This means that he clearly believes he can beat Aokiji should guy try anything.
In Chapter 867, Mother Carmel stated that Linlin - based off her performance as a five years old - had the power to be an Admiral or a Fleet Admiral.
When Shiki attacked Marineford, it took Garp and Sengoku to stop him. When Green Bull attacked Wano, he declared that had Kaido still been alive, he would have never dared step foot inside Wano. Then he immediately backed off when Shanks used long-range Conqueror's haki. Shanks, who didn't dare make a move for One Piece while Kaido and Big Mom were still alive - and both of them didn't dare try and seek One Piece while Whitebeard was still alive.
We also see that Yonkou performed much better against Yonko Commanders than Admirals did. Big Mom rather quickly grabbed and immobilized Marco. She also wrecked Queen like nothing. Meanwhile on Marineford, Admirals (excepting Akainu) only really defeated the Commanders when latter were caught off-guard. Marco was able to block both Kizaru and Aokoji (though not damage them). Kizaru also admitted that he could not defeat Rayleight without making certain preparations, whereas Rayleigh admitted that he had to rely on his reputation against Blackbeard and that he had no hope of defeating the Emperor. And no, Kizaru was not holding back against Rayleigh - he captured hundred pirates to "vent his rage" afterwards.
And saying that "it’s the Navy that has to be able to deal with all of the Yonko" is just wrong. Yonko are not allies. Yonko are enemies. Even when Whitebeard and Shanks - the most friendly Yonkos of the old crop - met at Moby Dick, Shanks was quite clear that he considered Moby Dick enemy territory. Yonkos are not going to band up together if attacked by the Navy - not unless at least some of them have fallen. And if the Navy truly can match all the Yonkos, then why was Shanks and Whitebeard meeting such a big deal? Why did Garp say that Navy was not ready to face Whitebeard and Rayleigh at the same time? Why did Navy basically crap themselves at Kaido and Big Mom alliance?
Navy needs to be stronger than individual Yonko crew, yes. And it is a fact that Navy forces as a whole far outclass those of any individual Yonko. But Navy having five Yonko-level combatants (at Marineford, you have Sengoku, Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru and Garp who are all Admiral-level combatants) simply makes no bloody sense within the story. If Navy Admiral = Yonko, then the Navy can send out two or three Admirals and their fleets, kill a single Yonko at basically no risk, rinse and repeat until the Yonko are all gone. Any Yonko can solo their entire crew. If a Navy Admiral is equal to that, two Admirals will have been more than enough to defeat any Yonko crew. Send in three Admirals and it is a slaughter, while still leaving two Admiral-level fighters (pre-TS) to hold the fort against any potential attempt to exploit the situation. And having subordinate crews will not have helped, because these take time to gather.
But if you assume that two Admirals are needed to ensure kill against a Yonko? Then you'd need to have two Admirals for Yonko, another Admiral for Yonko Commanders, and another for any contingencies - leaving no Admirals and perhaps one Admiral-level commander to hold the fort. Which would rather handily explain why the Navy and the Yonko are at stalemate.
And there are few other factors to consider.
First, Conqueror's Haki. Conqueror's Haki is a prerequisite to become a top tier fighter. Yet what is it awakened by? Will to power, will to freedom, will to protect. It just makes sense that most of the prospective Conquerors will be pirates, and that Emperors are more likely to have strong Conqueror's Haki than Admirals. In fact, we don't even know if any Admirals have Conquerors' Haki (Sengoku and Garp do for sure, and I assume Akainu and Aokiji also do, but those are all question marks).
Second, the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. First top-tier opponent Luffy fought post-timeskip was an Admiral Fujitora in Chapter 798. He only faced Kaido in Chapter 923 (and got one-shotted). This is not conclusive evidence, but does indicate that Emperors are indeed stronger than Admirals.
Third, again the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. Luffy will be Pirate King, and we know the ultimate goal will be to defeat the World Government (likely after learning the truth of the world and Void Century). But main opponents in that scenario will be the Gorosei, not the Admirals. If Admirals truly are Yonko level then Luffy will have to be a hitherto-unprecedented monster to handle the Gorosei... I just don't think that will be the case. Gorosei > Yonkou > Admirals.
I also thought that Admirals may end up being Yonko level until we learned of the Gorosei and their devil fruits (even though I never thought their portrayal justified that idea - but this is Oda's story, he can do whatever the hell he wants). But considering the Gorosei are there, Admirals are kinda superfluous as EoS opponents, except Akainu who is intimately connected to Luffy.
1 Admiral, a Cipher Pol agent, a fleet, and an Elder. Somehow you had forgotten that last part.
And Luffy isn't even properly recognized as a Yonko yet. He technically is one, but Lucci was clear that the title means nothing to the Navy.
Of course, how applicable Marineford really is is not clear. Both sides were kinda holding back, after all, and Whitebeard was essentially hakiless (his Observation Haki was so crap he didn't notice Squard).
"Portion of Warlords" is mostly Mihawk, who is the World's Strongest Swordsman and likely match for an Emperor himself. Mihawk who joined the Warlords simply because he wanted to live in peace instead of being chased around by the Navy, and otherwise gave no shit about what the Navy wanted. And when we are at the topic of warlords, Doflamingo didn't mind fighting Fujitora and didn't seem that scared of Aokiji (though that was clearly a fight he didn't want to get into), yet even the mere prospect of an angry Kaido made him shit his pants. And of course, if Admiral = Yonkou, why did Navy need to bust out seven Warlords on top of the four (really five) admirals against Whitebeard?
Even pre-timeskip Supernovas showed little fear when facing prospect of an Admiral arriving. Compare that to their reaction to Kaido.
Blackbeard has a former Admiral as his subordinate. This means that he clearly believes he can beat Aokiji should guy try anything.
In Chapter 867, Mother Carmel stated that Linlin - based off her performance as a five years old - had the power to be an Admiral or a Fleet Admiral.
When Shiki attacked Marineford, it took Garp and Sengoku to stop him. When Green Bull attacked Wano, he declared that had Kaido still been alive, he would have never dared step foot inside Wano. Then he immediately backed off when Shanks used long-range Conqueror's haki. Shanks, who didn't dare make a move for One Piece while Kaido and Big Mom were still alive - and both of them didn't dare try and seek One Piece while Whitebeard was still alive.
We also see that Yonkou performed much better against Yonko Commanders than Admirals did. Big Mom rather quickly grabbed and immobilized Marco. She also wrecked Queen like nothing. Meanwhile on Marineford, Admirals (excepting Akainu) only really defeated the Commanders when latter were caught off-guard. Marco was able to block both Kizaru and Aokoji (though not damage them). Kizaru also admitted that he could not defeat Rayleight without making certain preparations, whereas Rayleigh admitted that he had to rely on his reputation against Blackbeard and that he had no hope of defeating the Emperor. And no, Kizaru was not holding back against Rayleigh - he captured hundred pirates to "vent his rage" afterwards.
And saying that "it’s the Navy that has to be able to deal with all of the Yonko" is just wrong. Yonko are not allies. Yonko are enemies. Even when Whitebeard and Shanks - the most friendly Yonkos of the old crop - met at Moby Dick, Shanks was quite clear that he considered Moby Dick enemy territory. Yonkos are not going to band up together if attacked by the Navy - not unless at least some of them have fallen. And if the Navy truly can match all the Yonkos, then why was Shanks and Whitebeard meeting such a big deal? Why did Garp say that Navy was not ready to face Whitebeard and Rayleigh at the same time? Why did Navy basically crap themselves at Kaido and Big Mom alliance?
Navy needs to be stronger than individual Yonko crew, yes. And it is a fact that Navy forces as a whole far outclass those of any individual Yonko. But Navy having five Yonko-level combatants (at Marineford, you have Sengoku, Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru and Garp who are all Admiral-level combatants) simply makes no bloody sense within the story. If Navy Admiral = Yonko, then the Navy can send out two or three Admirals and their fleets, kill a single Yonko at basically no risk, rinse and repeat until the Yonko are all gone. Any Yonko can solo their entire crew. If a Navy Admiral is equal to that, two Admirals will have been more than enough to defeat any Yonko crew. Send in three Admirals and it is a slaughter, while still leaving two Admiral-level fighters (pre-TS) to hold the fort against any potential attempt to exploit the situation. And having subordinate crews will not have helped, because these take time to gather.
But if you assume that two Admirals are needed to ensure kill against a Yonko? Then you'd need to have two Admirals for Yonko, another Admiral for Yonko Commanders, and another for any contingencies - leaving no Admirals and perhaps one Admiral-level commander to hold the fort. Which would rather handily explain why the Navy and the Yonko are at stalemate.
And there are few other factors to consider.
First, Conqueror's Haki. Conqueror's Haki is a prerequisite to become a top tier fighter. Yet what is it awakened by? Will to power, will to freedom, will to protect. It just makes sense that most of the prospective Conquerors will be pirates, and that Emperors are more likely to have strong Conqueror's Haki than Admirals. In fact, we don't even know if any Admirals have Conquerors' Haki (Sengoku and Garp do for sure, and I assume Akainu and Aokiji also do, but those are all question marks).
Second, the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. First top-tier opponent Luffy fought post-timeskip was an Admiral Fujitora in Chapter 798. He only faced Kaido in Chapter 923 (and got one-shotted). This is not conclusive evidence, but does indicate that Emperors are indeed stronger than Admirals.
Third, again the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. Luffy will be Pirate King, and we know the ultimate goal will be to defeat the World Government (likely after learning the truth of the world and Void Century). But main opponents in that scenario will be the Gorosei, not the Admirals. If Admirals truly are Yonko level then Luffy will have to be a hitherto-unprecedented monster to handle the Gorosei... I just don't think that will be the case. Gorosei > Yonkou > Admirals.
I also thought that Admirals may end up being Yonko level until we learned of the Gorosei and their devil fruits (even though I never thought their portrayal justified that idea - but this is Oda's story, he can do whatever the hell he wants). But considering the Gorosei are there, Admirals are kinda superfluous as EoS opponents, except Akainu who is intimately connected to Luffy.
1 Admiral, a Cipher Pol agent, a fleet, and an Elder. Somehow you had forgotten that last part.
And Luffy isn't even properly recognized as a Yonko yet. He technically is one, but Lucci was clear that the title means nothing to the Navy.
:cheers:You literally said: “1 Yonko empire =~Navy + Warlords.” Those are your on words, you actually doubled down on it.
They didn’t match the Navy at any time. We had some of the top fighters of the Navy doing little to nothing throughout (Garp & Sengoku), others disappearing at convenient times (the Admirals), and others bumming around not pulling their weight (Warlords).
That’s like saying that half the Strawhats that infiltrated WCI matched the entire Big Mom pirates for a time. Trying to use the forces for Marineford is like saying “1 Yonko fleet is equal to half a Supernova crew.” It’s so terribly transparent and dishonest…and the fact that those who try to downplay the Navy with that never do the same with WCI just shows it comes from plain double standards and disingenuousness.
The conquerors Haki excuse doesn’t work because conquerors coating wasn’t a thing at that time, and even if were used it wasn’t visualized to argue either way. Also pointless since the Navy side simply had more users to begin with.
WB attacked Akainu from behind and suffered a fatal injury despite that. He temporarily removed him from the battlefield but Akainu returned to nearly accomplish his goal anyway. If those are the loose parameters of a defeat, then one may as well argue that Akainu defeated him in their 1st fight, so it’s just back to square one.
Besides that…why would you expect Akainu to defeat all the remaining WB Commanders in just a couple of minutes? The implication was the Commanders would eventually lose if it dragged on, so that doesn’t do them any favours considering it’s 1 out of 4 Admirals and they were on the back foot.
WB was the only one that really had to worry about holding back on the WB side, while there were several individuals that had to do so on the Navy side. The pirates are still badly outmatched regardless. That works for any single angle you want to take.
All that’s besides even considering that basically half the Warlords were helping the WB pirates and they still lost that badly,
Oh lord….the Doflamingo excuse in 2023? Kinemon didn’t mind fighting Kaido but ran from Fujitora. So according to you, Admirals must be stronger than Yonko, right?
Why did Law blackmail Doffy with having Kaido or an Admiral come after him if they weren’t comparable threats?
Mihawk was still a Warlord, so I’m not sure what that explanation is supposed to change. That just emphasizes how terrible the claim that 1 Yonko crew is in anyway comparable to the Navy and Warlords is…when even the ancillary force has someone supposedly comparable.
Pre-time skip Supernova tried to avoid an Admiral showing up as much as possible but had no problems aiming for the Yonko to begin with. You also have current members of a Yonko crew freaking out at an Admiral showing up while having no issues with raiding a Yonko to take them out.
That sort of cherrypicking won’t help you.
We already see the reasons for Kuzan joining the BB pirates, and it obviously wasn’t because he considered himself inferior in any way. It also works both ways with Teach not wanting to upset him even with all his men for support against him.
Not sure what the Linlin line is supposed to change. It just emphasizes again that the Admirals are considered the strongest individuals for the other side of the balance.
Nothing suggests that Garp or Sengoku couldn’t have taken on Shiki individually. It obviously just makes more sense for both to do so together. It’s not a video game, their base and men’s lives were at stake.
Greenbull never said any such thing. He simply said that he wouldn’t have gone to Wano if Kaido was around, just as everyone else including the other Yonko did not. Does that mean that Kaido is the only one that can be called a Yonko since none of the rest did so? Greenbull was going after the man who beat Kaido as well. Even the Pirate King himself avoided fighting 1 Yonko crew, and a Yonko (Kaido) did the same when he avoided the Red Hair Pirates. So why is Greenbull held to a higher standard and supposed to face 2 Yonko crews on his own? Seems a bit silly.
Only an Admiral has killed a Commander in 1 hit, so I’m not sure where you are getting better performance from. Linlin did not even damage Marco unlike Kizaru did, and she grabbed him so that her son could attack him for her. Kizaru never asked anyone to attack Marco for him.
Kizaru never said that he needed preparations to defeat Rayleigh either, only to capture him. Even in their short bout, Kizaru was tiring him out despite restricting himself to swordfighting. Yonko BB on the other hand avoided an even older Rayleigh completely, so Kizaru arguably had the better performance.
Kizaru was betrayed by Kuma who sent the Strawhats beyond his reach. Obviously he was in a rage because they’d have caught the Strawhats anyway even with Rayleigh’s interference as Kizaru himself implied. It was Kuma that screwed them.
Of course the Navy has to be able to deal with all the Yonko. Why did you think the Yonko being friends mattered? Does Big Mom and WB being friends matter if the Navy has to respond to both causing issues in different places? Did you think that the Yonko could only make a move 1 at a time…like they have a set schedule or something?
And did you think they should be throwing a party for Yonko joining forces? That makes no sense. What was once a quarter of their forces has now doubled to half, and you think no military on the planet would be concerned about that?
Why would you think that they would want more problems to deal with?
And no, not a single of the Navy’s higher ups “crapped themselves” with the Rocks duo team up. On the other hand, even after forming an alliance, the Rocks duo were still seeking the Ancient Weapons just for the Navy replacing the unruly Shichibukai. They obviously didn’t consider their own forces enough.
What makes you think that Shanks could solo the Red Hair pirates? Even besides that, war is not a game. Big Mom was nearly drowned by King alone. Fighting a Yonko crew isn’t a structured match where they are obligated to keep things 1 on 1.
Sending 2 or 3 Admirals after 1 Yonko crew is just dumb because:
- The Yonko has no obligation to wait around for them and could just lead them on a merry goose chase across the seas.
- Just 2 Admirals can still get outnumbered. Some of the Yonko’s men can interfere in a fight with 1 to give the Yonko an edge while others stall the other one.
- Sending so many Admirals after 1 Yonko leaves them unable to respond to the other 3 (those don’t just disappear, remember?) or the Dragon of the Revolutionaries. That just leaves the Fleet Admiral who stays at HQ, so only 1 Admiral that can’t be 3 different places at once.
- it’s not a game, so a win would have to be guaranteed, meaning 2 Admirals at least for one Yonko, a force twice as much as the Yonko’s Commanders, then ditto for the fodder (that 40,000 soldiers for the Beast Pirates who had 20,000 for example).
It’s just dumb all around when the Yonko do part of their work for them in preventing anyone else or themselves from becoming Pirate King without the WG having to waste their own resources.
Also, needing 2 Admirals to guarantee a win is always the case regardless of if the Admirals are slightly stronger, weaker of exactly equal. That excuse only works if you somehow think that an Admiral is much weaker to the point of being barely over half the strength of a Yonko which is obviously silly.
When was it stated that conquerors Haki is a prerequisite to be a top tier? The same conquerors Haki that couldn’t kill Kinemon? Lmao!
Did they measure Blackbeard’s conquerors Haki before allowing him to become a Yonko?
The next one is…just kind of dumb. Luffy barely fought Fujitora and had to run. By that reasoning, since Luffy defeated a Yonko first, then the Admirals are stronger by that algorithm.
Lastly, nothing suggests that the Gorosei have to be significantly stronger than the current top tiers. They have no bearing on how the Admirals & Yonko relate to each other at all. It is still an Admiral sent to deal with a Yonko when they’re acting up. So in the end, you’d just have the Gorosei being stronger than both groups who are still just comparable to each other. Nothing changes.
Luffy is regarded as a Yonko, we literally already see the Navy acknowledge that and even acknowledge he beat Kaido. The excuse that he needs to establish himself just because Lucci personally didn’t accept his status is silly.
Saturn was along for the ride to deal with Vegapunk’s countermeasures. Remove Vegapunk and it only gets worse for the Strawhat pirates with half the Seraphim and an Admiral with a fleet against them.
It’s still overkill no matter how you look at it. It’s not like replacing Saturn with the 2 other Admirals makes things much better for them.
Oh boy! You went through the entire gamut of awful or terrible arguments used in this topic. Isn’t it telling that it’s always the same illogical excuses (with little variation now and then) that are always used?
I compiled a list like nearly 3 years ago and you used practically majority of them!
Even classics like the Doflamingo one or the “why don’t they just wipe out the Yonko” which is probably the most popular yet one of the silliest.
They didn’t match the Navy at any time. We had some of the top fighters of the Navy doing little to nothing throughout (Garp & Sengoku), others disappearing at convenient times (the Admirals), and others bumming around not pulling their weight (Warlords).
That’s like saying that half the Strawhats that infiltrated WCI matched the entire Big Mom pirates for a time. Trying to use the forces for Marineford is like saying “1 Yonko fleet is equal to half a Supernova crew.” It’s so terribly transparent and dishonest…and the fact that those who try to downplay the Navy with that never do the same with WCI just shows it comes from plain double standards and disingenuousness.
The conquerors Haki excuse doesn’t work because conquerors coating wasn’t a thing at that time, and even if were used it wasn’t visualized to argue either way. Also pointless since the Navy side simply had more users to begin with.
WB attacked Akainu from behind and suffered a fatal injury despite that. He temporarily removed him from the battlefield but Akainu returned to nearly accomplish his goal anyway. If those are the loose parameters of a defeat, then one may as well argue that Akainu defeated him in their 1st fight, so it’s just back to square one.
Besides that…why would you expect Akainu to defeat all the remaining WB Commanders in just a couple of minutes? The implication was the Commanders would eventually lose if it dragged on, so that doesn’t do them any favours considering it’s 1 out of 4 Admirals and they were on the back foot.
WB was the only one that really had to worry about holding back on the WB side, while there were several individuals that had to do so on the Navy side. The pirates are still badly outmatched regardless. That works for any single angle you want to take.
All that’s besides even considering that basically half the Warlords were helping the WB pirates and they still lost that badly,
Oh lord….the Doflamingo excuse in 2023? Kinemon didn’t mind fighting Kaido but ran from Fujitora. So according to you, Admirals must be stronger than Yonko, right?
Why did Law blackmail Doffy with having Kaido or an Admiral come after him if they weren’t comparable threats?
Mihawk was still a Warlord, so I’m not sure what that explanation is supposed to change. That just emphasizes how terrible the claim that 1 Yonko crew is in anyway comparable to the Navy and Warlords is…when even the ancillary force has someone supposedly comparable.
Pre-time skip Supernova tried to avoid an Admiral showing up as much as possible but had no problems aiming for the Yonko to begin with. You also have current members of a Yonko crew freaking out at an Admiral showing up while having no issues with raiding a Yonko to take them out.
That sort of cherrypicking won’t help you.
We already see the reasons for Kuzan joining the BB pirates, and it obviously wasn’t because he considered himself inferior in any way. It also works both ways with Teach not wanting to upset him even with all his men for support against him.
Not sure what the Linlin line is supposed to change. It just emphasizes again that the Admirals are considered the strongest individuals for the other side of the balance.
Nothing suggests that Garp or Sengoku couldn’t have taken on Shiki individually. It obviously just makes more sense for both to do so together. It’s not a video game, their base and men’s lives were at stake.
Greenbull never said any such thing. He simply said that he wouldn’t have gone to Wano if Kaido was around, just as everyone else including the other Yonko did not. Does that mean that Kaido is the only one that can be called a Yonko since none of the rest did so? Greenbull was going after the man who beat Kaido as well. Even the Pirate King himself avoided fighting 1 Yonko crew, and a Yonko (Kaido) did the same when he avoided the Red Hair Pirates. So why is Greenbull held to a higher standard and supposed to face 2 Yonko crews on his own? Seems a bit silly.
Only an Admiral has killed a Commander in 1 hit, so I’m not sure where you are getting better performance from. Linlin did not even damage Marco unlike Kizaru did, and she grabbed him so that her son could attack him for her. Kizaru never asked anyone to attack Marco for him.
Kizaru never said that he needed preparations to defeat Rayleigh either, only to capture him. Even in their short bout, Kizaru was tiring him out despite restricting himself to swordfighting. Yonko BB on the other hand avoided an even older Rayleigh completely, so Kizaru arguably had the better performance.
Kizaru was betrayed by Kuma who sent the Strawhats beyond his reach. Obviously he was in a rage because they’d have caught the Strawhats anyway even with Rayleigh’s interference as Kizaru himself implied. It was Kuma that screwed them.
Of course the Navy has to be able to deal with all the Yonko. Why did you think the Yonko being friends mattered? Does Big Mom and WB being friends matter if the Navy has to respond to both causing issues in different places? Did you think that the Yonko could only make a move 1 at a time…like they have a set schedule or something?
And did you think they should be throwing a party for Yonko joining forces? That makes no sense. What was once a quarter of their forces has now doubled to half, and you think no military on the planet would be concerned about that?
Why would you think that they would want more problems to deal with?
And no, not a single of the Navy’s higher ups “crapped themselves” with the Rocks duo team up. On the other hand, even after forming an alliance, the Rocks duo were still seeking the Ancient Weapons just for the Navy replacing the unruly Shichibukai. They obviously didn’t consider their own forces enough.
What makes you think that Shanks could solo the Red Hair pirates? Even besides that, war is not a game. Big Mom was nearly drowned by King alone. Fighting a Yonko crew isn’t a structured match where they are obligated to keep things 1 on 1.
Sending 2 or 3 Admirals after 1 Yonko crew is just dumb because:
- The Yonko has no obligation to wait around for them and could just lead them on a merry goose chase across the seas.
- Just 2 Admirals can still get outnumbered. Some of the Yonko’s men can interfere in a fight with 1 to give the Yonko an edge while others stall the other one.
- Sending so many Admirals after 1 Yonko leaves them unable to respond to the other 3 (those don’t just disappear, remember?) or the Dragon of the Revolutionaries. That just leaves the Fleet Admiral who stays at HQ, so only 1 Admiral that can’t be 3 different places at once.
- it’s not a game, so a win would have to be guaranteed, meaning 2 Admirals at least for one Yonko, a force twice as much as the Yonko’s Commanders, then ditto for the fodder (that 40,000 soldiers for the Beast Pirates who had 20,000 for example).
It’s just dumb all around when the Yonko do part of their work for them in preventing anyone else or themselves from becoming Pirate King without the WG having to waste their own resources.
Also, needing 2 Admirals to guarantee a win is always the case regardless of if the Admirals are slightly stronger, weaker of exactly equal. That excuse only works if you somehow think that an Admiral is much weaker to the point of being barely over half the strength of a Yonko which is obviously silly.
When was it stated that conquerors Haki is a prerequisite to be a top tier? The same conquerors Haki that couldn’t kill Kinemon? Lmao!
Did they measure Blackbeard’s conquerors Haki before allowing him to become a Yonko?
The next one is…just kind of dumb. Luffy barely fought Fujitora and had to run. By that reasoning, since Luffy defeated a Yonko first, then the Admirals are stronger by that algorithm.
Lastly, nothing suggests that the Gorosei have to be significantly stronger than the current top tiers. They have no bearing on how the Admirals & Yonko relate to each other at all. It is still an Admiral sent to deal with a Yonko when they’re acting up. So in the end, you’d just have the Gorosei being stronger than both groups who are still just comparable to each other. Nothing changes.
Luffy is regarded as a Yonko, we literally already see the Navy acknowledge that and even acknowledge he beat Kaido. The excuse that he needs to establish himself just because Lucci personally didn’t accept his status is silly.
Saturn was along for the ride to deal with Vegapunk’s countermeasures. Remove Vegapunk and it only gets worse for the Strawhat pirates with half the Seraphim and an Admiral with a fleet against them.
It’s still overkill no matter how you look at it. It’s not like replacing Saturn with the 2 other Admirals makes things much better for them.
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Oh boy! You went through the entire gamut of awful or terrible arguments used in this topic. Isn’t it telling that it’s always the same illogical excuses (with little variation now and then) that are always used?
I compiled a list like nearly 3 years ago and you used practically majority of them!
Even classics like the Doflamingo one or the “why don’t they just wipe out the Yonko” which is probably the most popular yet one of the silliest.
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First, fucking learn to quote.
Second, Yonko Empire.
Meaning Yonko crew + their allied crews.
Third, =~ means "approximately equal".
Capisci?
Then why didn't Navy just wipe them out? That was the goal, after all. And we saw that Admiral can handle a Commander, or even literally all of them, just fine.
LOL! I am probably the first who will tell you that Big Mom is frankly useless, so you can stop bullshitting now.
Armament haki was a thing since Water 7 at least. And Whitebeard couldn't use even basic Observation Haki at the time of Marineford.
And? Akainu is a Logia and Whitebeard was barely able to use Haki if at all. Of course Akainu wouldn't die just from a quake punch.
And yes, Commanders will have lost in the end. Akainu's Haki is superior to theirs, and being a Logia, that means he is essentially invulnerable. And when you look at how even Big Meme performed against Yonko Commanders, and Akainu had significant backup... yeah.
Doesn't mean that Admiral = Yonko.
Lost badly? Whitebeard Pirates damn nearly accomplished their goal despite everything, and only Ace's stupidity prevented that.
Kinemon was obliged to fight Kaido regardless of whether he lives or dies. There is such a thing as honor, you know. What would he have accomplished fighting Fujitora at the time? Different contexts.
Doflamingo' situation however was basically 1 for 1 comparison.
Because they are comparable where he is concerned? Doflamingo is fucking dead regardless of whether Kaido or an Admiral comes after him (as far as Law knows, at least), but that doesn't mean that Emperor = Admiral.
Mihawk was a pirate outside the Navy ranks. How strong he is is a question that has no relevance to question of how strong Admirals are.
Yet when pre-timeskip Supernova - or even post-timeskip ones - actually came face-to-face with Yonko, they generally didn't even try to fight. And when they did, it didn't last long.
Post-timeskip Luffy managed to fight Fujitora for some time before being dragged away by his own crew. Kaido defeated him in one hit upon their first meeting.
This falls apart on multiple levels.
First, why Kuzan wanted to join the Blackbeard Pirates has no relevance to question of strength. Rather, question is why would Blackbeard accept somebody whose loyalties he cannot be certain of if said someone is also stronger than him?
Second, Teach also didn't want to upset Ace when they faced each other, so that particular argument has no relevance to how strong Admirals are relative to Emperors. Teach was one of the weaker Emperors until Kaido's defeat at least, and he is trying to recruit as strong crew as possible to become the Pirate King.
Third, you forget that Kuzan had frozen his entire crew. You can't be an Emperor without a crew, and Teach fighting Kuzan will have killed them all. In fact, Teach was ready to fight Kuzan; Kuzan stopped him by pointing out his crew is frozen.
Fourth, Teach is generally a coward. He will never fight a strong opponent if he can avoid it.
They are. But we are talking here about estimating potential of a five year old with no Devil Fruit.
Probably.
Because other Yonko did go to hostile Yonko territories?
Big Mom outright invaded Onigashima. Yeah, it didn't go well but she clearly had no issue coming there with Kaido local.
Shanks went to meet Whitebeard knowing he may have to fight him.
Yonko obviously will not seek trouble with each other, but at no point was there any inference that one Yonko's territory is a no-go zone for the other Yonkos the way Greenbull inferred Kaido's territory was for him.
No, he just had that spider vice-Admiral cuff Marco with seastone cuffs. Meanwhile Linlin overpowered Marco and only asked Pero to shoot Marco because Marco's flames are specifically effective against her homies.
She literally manhandled Marco the moment she decided to stop relying on her Devil Fruit:
And? Blackbeard is a coward who will avoid fighting strong opponents if he can at all. He ran away because of Rayleigh's reputation, but Rayleigh was quite clear that Blackbeard will have won had it come to actual fight:
That is not what Sentomaru said:
He is quite clear that it was Rayleigh who stopped Kizaru. And Kizaru then went and captured 500 pirates just to vent his rage.
Honestly, have you even read the manga?
Except the Navy clearly doesn't deal with all the Yonko.
If Navy was capable of matching all the Yonko at the same time, Yonko would not exist. Yonko making alliances would not be considered major news.
Yes, Big Mom and Whitebeard being friends would matter. If Big Mom and Whitebeard are acting separately, Navy can just concentrate forces and deal with them separately (and in event, they generally don't do even that - Navy avoids interfering with the Yonko so long as they are not threatening the Navy or the World Government itself). If they are acting together, then Navy has to treat them as a single threat.
Yonko who are not allies will interfere with each other, which means that 90% of the time Navy doesn't have to do anything - any threat will simply peter out by itself. And if a Yonko makes a move against the Navy, then Navy can focus all of its forces on dealing with a single Yonko. Other Yonko will not attack, or may even attack each other or attack the Yonko who is making a move. In short, so long as all the Yonko are not allies, Navy only needs to have enough strength to deal with one Yonko at a time.
This also means that if Navy could truly match all the four Emperors at the same time, Emperor system would not be viable as Navy could take them out one by one. And Navy isn't even the only force World Government is employing against the Yonkou, as we had the Warlords until the timeskip, then the Pacifista and the Seraphim, and also Cipher Pol agents.
I am saying that they shouldn't be panicking that much.
Navy has four Admiral-level fighters at the time. And despite post-timeskip Navy having been stated to be stronger overall than it was under Sengoku, Akainu was quite clear that Navy does not have the manpower to face Kaido and Big Mom at the same time:
"We don't have the manpower to tear apart those two!"
And the same argument you used for why Admirals don't wipe out the Yonkou individually works here: even if Kaido - Big Mom alliance is stronger than combined forces of the Navy, fighting the Navy would leave them open to attacks from other sides.
Moreover, Navy is not the only threat they would have to face if they go against the World Government, either. Both Kaido and Big Mom were part of the Rocks Pirates. This means that they would know about the God's Knights and perhaps also the Gorosei. Even if Kaido and Big Mom could alone beat all the Admirals, that still would not have been enough to win against the World Government.
Hence the need for ancient weapons.
And that is precisely why Admiral = Yonko makes no sense.
1) Any rookie can do that, so it is hardly an argument.
2) Navy also has vice admirals, and they would logically go along with any Admiral sent to face a Yonko crew.
3) Navy doesn't NEED to respond to the other 3. Yonko are not some sort of a grand alliance. Other three are not going to move just because one did. Remember when Whitebeard attacked Marineford? Kaido went to attack Whitebeard, not the Navy. You could just as well say that Navy Admirals are completely irrelevant.
4) And? You need two Admirals either way. But if one Admiral = one Yonko, then they can literally set one Admiral and a couple of Vice Admirals to kill a Yonko, and another Admiral or a bunch of Vice Admirals to slaughter the Commanders. If however one Yonko is >1 Admiral, then two Admirals would still guarantee a win, but you would need two Admirals for that.
Yet Yonko are still people who refuse the authority of the World Government. You really think any government would tolerate that unless it has to?
Two words: Vice Admirals. If Admirals are exactly equal to Yonko, then you don't need to shift two Admirals to face a single Yonko.
Vice Admirals can stalemate the commanders just fine. Even if a high-ranking Yonko Commander would be far above a Vice Admiral, there are still many more Vice Admirals than Yonko Commanders. And average Yonko Commander is likely not that much stronger than average Vice Admiral.
As for whether "Admiral is barely over half the strength of a Yonko", that depends. If we take a particularly strong Yonko (e.g. Primebeard) and a particularly weak Admiral (Greenbull and Fujitora), then that may be the case. But average Admiral against average Yonko? I'd put it closer to Admiral being 75% - 90% of Yonko's strength. And a strong Admiral will be stronger than a weak Yonko.
But Yonko have to be stronger than Admirals on average, simply due to nature of their respective positions.
You can see this in bounties:
Navy bounties:
Luffy: 3 000 000 000
Buggy: 3 189 000 000
Blackbeard: 3 996 000 000
Shanks: 4 048 900 000
Big Mom: 4 388 000 000
Kaido: 4 611 100 000
Whitebeard: 5 046 000 000
Roger: 5 564 800 000
Cross Guild bounties:
Admirals: 3 000 000 000
Garp: 3 000 000 000
Coby: 500 000 000
Captain: 100 000 000
Bounties are hardly a decisive argument - for example, Whitebeard and Roger were equals in their prime despite Roger's slightly higher bounty - but they do relate to strength at least to an extent (Buggy's bounty is really Mihawk's). And trend here is clear: only the weakest of Yonko are equal to Admirals, but no Yonko is worth two Admirals.
It is not prerequisite to be a "top tier" - I believe I had stated before that I don't think Blackbeard has Conqueror's Haki - but Conqueror's Haki user will nearly always be stronger than a non-CH user.
ALL Emperors except for Blackbeard are known Conqueror's Haki users.
Both known Fleet Admirals - Sengoku and Akainu - are known Conqueror's Haki users.
You can LMAO all you want, but Plot Armor is something neither Conqueror's Haki nor Devil Fruits can overcome. Akainu failed to kill Luffy, failed to kill Jinbei, failed to kill Ivankov, failed to kill Marco, failed to kill Kuma, didn't even try to kill Blackbeard who had just stolen Whitebeard's fruit... if it weren't for plot-related death of Ace he would be on the level of Big Meme, yet calling him weak would obviously be ridiculous.
Luffy wanted to stay and fight. Him running from Fujitora had absolutely nothing to do with Fujitora himself.
Of course, we don't know how the fight will have ended had he stayed and fought. Chances are, he would have been defeated... just as he was when he fought Kaido.
Narrative does.
Yes, Gorosei have no bearing on how the Admirals and the Yonko relate to each other. But they are the ultimate villains, and ones who control the world.
It would be weird if the ultimate villains (Gorosei) ended up weaker than "gatekeeping" villains such as the Admirals and the Yonko.
He is recognized as a Yonko, yes. But he clearly does not command the respect of the old pre-timeskip Yonko did.
No, it does not. And Akainu did originally expect Kizaru to be enough to deal with Luffy.
But as I said: not all Emperors are equal and not all Admirals are equal. A newly forged Emperor like Luffy would obviously not have the respect of somebody like Whitebeard or Kaido.
He will have to earn it.
We also saw that Luffy didn't even treat Aramaki like a threat, despite he himself being beat up from the fight. Granted, he did have allies there, but I doubt he wouldn't try and fight him one-on-one.
Only thing terrible here is your understanding of the manga...
That being said, this entire discussion is irrelevant. In the end, Oda will do what he believes he needs to do for the story to progress, regardless of how much sense it may or may not make.
Second, Yonko Empire.
Meaning Yonko crew + their allied crews.
Third, =~ means "approximately equal".
Capisci?
Then why didn't Navy just wipe them out? That was the goal, after all. And we saw that Admiral can handle a Commander, or even literally all of them, just fine.
LOL! I am probably the first who will tell you that Big Mom is frankly useless, so you can stop bullshitting now.
Armament haki was a thing since Water 7 at least. And Whitebeard couldn't use even basic Observation Haki at the time of Marineford.
And? Akainu is a Logia and Whitebeard was barely able to use Haki if at all. Of course Akainu wouldn't die just from a quake punch.
And yes, Commanders will have lost in the end. Akainu's Haki is superior to theirs, and being a Logia, that means he is essentially invulnerable. And when you look at how even Big Meme performed against Yonko Commanders, and Akainu had significant backup... yeah.
Doesn't mean that Admiral = Yonko.
Lost badly? Whitebeard Pirates damn nearly accomplished their goal despite everything, and only Ace's stupidity prevented that.
Kinemon was obliged to fight Kaido regardless of whether he lives or dies. There is such a thing as honor, you know. What would he have accomplished fighting Fujitora at the time? Different contexts.
Doflamingo' situation however was basically 1 for 1 comparison.
Because they are comparable where he is concerned? Doflamingo is fucking dead regardless of whether Kaido or an Admiral comes after him (as far as Law knows, at least), but that doesn't mean that Emperor = Admiral.
Mihawk was a pirate outside the Navy ranks. How strong he is is a question that has no relevance to question of how strong Admirals are.
Yet when pre-timeskip Supernova - or even post-timeskip ones - actually came face-to-face with Yonko, they generally didn't even try to fight. And when they did, it didn't last long.
Post-timeskip Luffy managed to fight Fujitora for some time before being dragged away by his own crew. Kaido defeated him in one hit upon their first meeting.
This falls apart on multiple levels.
First, why Kuzan wanted to join the Blackbeard Pirates has no relevance to question of strength. Rather, question is why would Blackbeard accept somebody whose loyalties he cannot be certain of if said someone is also stronger than him?
Second, Teach also didn't want to upset Ace when they faced each other, so that particular argument has no relevance to how strong Admirals are relative to Emperors. Teach was one of the weaker Emperors until Kaido's defeat at least, and he is trying to recruit as strong crew as possible to become the Pirate King.
Third, you forget that Kuzan had frozen his entire crew. You can't be an Emperor without a crew, and Teach fighting Kuzan will have killed them all. In fact, Teach was ready to fight Kuzan; Kuzan stopped him by pointing out his crew is frozen.
Fourth, Teach is generally a coward. He will never fight a strong opponent if he can avoid it.
They are. But we are talking here about estimating potential of a five year old with no Devil Fruit.
Probably.
Because other Yonko did go to hostile Yonko territories?
Big Mom outright invaded Onigashima. Yeah, it didn't go well but she clearly had no issue coming there with Kaido local.
Shanks went to meet Whitebeard knowing he may have to fight him.
Yonko obviously will not seek trouble with each other, but at no point was there any inference that one Yonko's territory is a no-go zone for the other Yonkos the way Greenbull inferred Kaido's territory was for him.
No, he just had that spider vice-Admiral cuff Marco with seastone cuffs. Meanwhile Linlin overpowered Marco and only asked Pero to shoot Marco because Marco's flames are specifically effective against her homies.
She literally manhandled Marco the moment she decided to stop relying on her Devil Fruit:
And? Blackbeard is a coward who will avoid fighting strong opponents if he can at all. He ran away because of Rayleigh's reputation, but Rayleigh was quite clear that Blackbeard will have won had it come to actual fight:
That is not what Sentomaru said:
He is quite clear that it was Rayleigh who stopped Kizaru. And Kizaru then went and captured 500 pirates just to vent his rage.
Honestly, have you even read the manga?
Except the Navy clearly doesn't deal with all the Yonko.
If Navy was capable of matching all the Yonko at the same time, Yonko would not exist. Yonko making alliances would not be considered major news.
Yes, Big Mom and Whitebeard being friends would matter. If Big Mom and Whitebeard are acting separately, Navy can just concentrate forces and deal with them separately (and in event, they generally don't do even that - Navy avoids interfering with the Yonko so long as they are not threatening the Navy or the World Government itself). If they are acting together, then Navy has to treat them as a single threat.
Yonko who are not allies will interfere with each other, which means that 90% of the time Navy doesn't have to do anything - any threat will simply peter out by itself. And if a Yonko makes a move against the Navy, then Navy can focus all of its forces on dealing with a single Yonko. Other Yonko will not attack, or may even attack each other or attack the Yonko who is making a move. In short, so long as all the Yonko are not allies, Navy only needs to have enough strength to deal with one Yonko at a time.
This also means that if Navy could truly match all the four Emperors at the same time, Emperor system would not be viable as Navy could take them out one by one. And Navy isn't even the only force World Government is employing against the Yonkou, as we had the Warlords until the timeskip, then the Pacifista and the Seraphim, and also Cipher Pol agents.
I am saying that they shouldn't be panicking that much.
Navy has four Admiral-level fighters at the time. And despite post-timeskip Navy having been stated to be stronger overall than it was under Sengoku, Akainu was quite clear that Navy does not have the manpower to face Kaido and Big Mom at the same time:
"We don't have the manpower to tear apart those two!"
And the same argument you used for why Admirals don't wipe out the Yonkou individually works here: even if Kaido - Big Mom alliance is stronger than combined forces of the Navy, fighting the Navy would leave them open to attacks from other sides.
Moreover, Navy is not the only threat they would have to face if they go against the World Government, either. Both Kaido and Big Mom were part of the Rocks Pirates. This means that they would know about the God's Knights and perhaps also the Gorosei. Even if Kaido and Big Mom could alone beat all the Admirals, that still would not have been enough to win against the World Government.
Hence the need for ancient weapons.
And that is precisely why Admiral = Yonko makes no sense.
1) Any rookie can do that, so it is hardly an argument.
2) Navy also has vice admirals, and they would logically go along with any Admiral sent to face a Yonko crew.
3) Navy doesn't NEED to respond to the other 3. Yonko are not some sort of a grand alliance. Other three are not going to move just because one did. Remember when Whitebeard attacked Marineford? Kaido went to attack Whitebeard, not the Navy. You could just as well say that Navy Admirals are completely irrelevant.
4) And? You need two Admirals either way. But if one Admiral = one Yonko, then they can literally set one Admiral and a couple of Vice Admirals to kill a Yonko, and another Admiral or a bunch of Vice Admirals to slaughter the Commanders. If however one Yonko is >1 Admiral, then two Admirals would still guarantee a win, but you would need two Admirals for that.
Yet Yonko are still people who refuse the authority of the World Government. You really think any government would tolerate that unless it has to?
Two words: Vice Admirals. If Admirals are exactly equal to Yonko, then you don't need to shift two Admirals to face a single Yonko.
Vice Admirals can stalemate the commanders just fine. Even if a high-ranking Yonko Commander would be far above a Vice Admiral, there are still many more Vice Admirals than Yonko Commanders. And average Yonko Commander is likely not that much stronger than average Vice Admiral.
As for whether "Admiral is barely over half the strength of a Yonko", that depends. If we take a particularly strong Yonko (e.g. Primebeard) and a particularly weak Admiral (Greenbull and Fujitora), then that may be the case. But average Admiral against average Yonko? I'd put it closer to Admiral being 75% - 90% of Yonko's strength. And a strong Admiral will be stronger than a weak Yonko.
But Yonko have to be stronger than Admirals on average, simply due to nature of their respective positions.
You can see this in bounties:
Navy bounties:
Luffy: 3 000 000 000
Buggy: 3 189 000 000
Blackbeard: 3 996 000 000
Shanks: 4 048 900 000
Big Mom: 4 388 000 000
Kaido: 4 611 100 000
Whitebeard: 5 046 000 000
Roger: 5 564 800 000
Cross Guild bounties:
Admirals: 3 000 000 000
Garp: 3 000 000 000
Coby: 500 000 000
Captain: 100 000 000
Bounties are hardly a decisive argument - for example, Whitebeard and Roger were equals in their prime despite Roger's slightly higher bounty - but they do relate to strength at least to an extent (Buggy's bounty is really Mihawk's). And trend here is clear: only the weakest of Yonko are equal to Admirals, but no Yonko is worth two Admirals.
It is not prerequisite to be a "top tier" - I believe I had stated before that I don't think Blackbeard has Conqueror's Haki - but Conqueror's Haki user will nearly always be stronger than a non-CH user.
ALL Emperors except for Blackbeard are known Conqueror's Haki users.
Both known Fleet Admirals - Sengoku and Akainu - are known Conqueror's Haki users.
You can LMAO all you want, but Plot Armor is something neither Conqueror's Haki nor Devil Fruits can overcome. Akainu failed to kill Luffy, failed to kill Jinbei, failed to kill Ivankov, failed to kill Marco, failed to kill Kuma, didn't even try to kill Blackbeard who had just stolen Whitebeard's fruit... if it weren't for plot-related death of Ace he would be on the level of Big Meme, yet calling him weak would obviously be ridiculous.
Luffy wanted to stay and fight. Him running from Fujitora had absolutely nothing to do with Fujitora himself.
Of course, we don't know how the fight will have ended had he stayed and fought. Chances are, he would have been defeated... just as he was when he fought Kaido.
Narrative does.
Yes, Gorosei have no bearing on how the Admirals and the Yonko relate to each other. But they are the ultimate villains, and ones who control the world.
It would be weird if the ultimate villains (Gorosei) ended up weaker than "gatekeeping" villains such as the Admirals and the Yonko.
He is recognized as a Yonko, yes. But he clearly does not command the respect of the old pre-timeskip Yonko did.
No, it does not. And Akainu did originally expect Kizaru to be enough to deal with Luffy.
But as I said: not all Emperors are equal and not all Admirals are equal. A newly forged Emperor like Luffy would obviously not have the respect of somebody like Whitebeard or Kaido.
He will have to earn it.
We also saw that Luffy didn't even treat Aramaki like a threat, despite he himself being beat up from the fight. Granted, he did have allies there, but I doubt he wouldn't try and fight him one-on-one.
Only thing terrible here is your understanding of the manga...
That being said, this entire discussion is irrelevant. In the end, Oda will do what he believes he needs to do for the story to progress, regardless of how much sense it may or may not make.
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Statistically, Akainu is worse than Kizaru at everything.
There is no way in hell for him to fight a full round of Snakeman and G5 without taking a single hit as Kizaru did.
The best that can happen to Akainu is to not fight Luffy.
Instantly, the tone of the fight will switch from a tension-less joke to a serious, one-step away from death type of fight.
Green Cow of White Blade(hilarious lol) is indeed a disappointment in everything he has done so far.
Kuzan is a disappointment too based on his performance against an oldtimer like Garp and thus his near-equal Akainu cant look better.
The author never had the intention of portraying Admirals as good as he portrays Yonkos because they are fundamentally different.
Yonkos are the arc bosses, it all revolves around them, they steal the spotlight even if they arent impressive like Big Mom wasnt.
Admirals are ultimately soldiers with several tiers of bosses and their fights will lose the spotlight to their bosses' fights.
There is no way in hell for him to fight a full round of Snakeman and G5 without taking a single hit as Kizaru did.
The best that can happen to Akainu is to not fight Luffy.
Instantly, the tone of the fight will switch from a tension-less joke to a serious, one-step away from death type of fight.
Green Cow of White Blade(hilarious lol) is indeed a disappointment in everything he has done so far.
Kuzan is a disappointment too based on his performance against an oldtimer like Garp and thus his near-equal Akainu cant look better.
The author never had the intention of portraying Admirals as good as he portrays Yonkos because they are fundamentally different.
Yonkos are the arc bosses, it all revolves around them, they steal the spotlight even if they arent impressive like Big Mom wasnt.
Admirals are ultimately soldiers with several tiers of bosses and their fights will lose the spotlight to their bosses' fights.
First, fucking learn to quote.
Second, Yonko Empire.
Meaning Yonko crew + their allied crews.
Third, =~ means "approximately equal".
Capisci?
Then why didn't Navy just wipe them out? That was the goal, after all. And we saw that Admiral can handle a Commander, or even literally all of them, just fine.
LOL! I am probably the first who will tell you that Big Mom is frankly useless, so you can stop bullshitting now.
Armament haki was a thing since Water 7 at least. And Whitebeard couldn't use even basic Observation Haki at the time of Marineford.
And? Akainu is a Logia and Whitebeard was barely able to use Haki if at all. Of course Akainu wouldn't die just from a quake punch.
And yes, Commanders will have lost in the end. Akainu's Haki is superior to theirs, and being a Logia, that means he is essentially invulnerable. And when you look at how even Big Meme performed against Yonko Commanders, and Akainu had significant backup... yeah.
Doesn't mean that Admiral = Yonko.
Lost badly? Whitebeard Pirates damn nearly accomplished their goal despite everything, and only Ace's stupidity prevented that.
Kinemon was obliged to fight Kaido regardless of whether he lives or dies. There is such a thing as honor, you know. What would he have accomplished fighting Fujitora at the time? Different contexts.
Doflamingo' situation however was basically 1 for 1 comparison.
Because they are comparable where he is concerned? Doflamingo is fucking dead regardless of whether Kaido or an Admiral comes after him (as far as Law knows, at least), but that doesn't mean that Emperor = Admiral.
Mihawk was a pirate outside the Navy ranks. How strong he is is a question that has no relevance to question of how strong Admirals are.
Yet when pre-timeskip Supernova - or even post-timeskip ones - actually came face-to-face with Yonko, they generally didn't even try to fight. And when they did, it didn't last long.
Post-timeskip Luffy managed to fight Fujitora for some time before being dragged away by his own crew. Kaido defeated him in one hit upon their first meeting.
This falls apart on multiple levels.
First, why Kuzan wanted to join the Blackbeard Pirates has no relevance to question of strength. Rather, question is why would Blackbeard accept somebody whose loyalties he cannot be certain of if said someone is also stronger than him?
Second, Teach also didn't want to upset Ace when they faced each other, so that particular argument has no relevance to how strong Admirals are relative to Emperors. Teach was one of the weaker Emperors until Kaido's defeat at least, and he is trying to recruit as strong crew as possible to become the Pirate King.
Third, you forget that Kuzan had frozen his entire crew. You can't be an Emperor without a crew, and Teach fighting Kuzan will have killed them all. In fact, Teach was ready to fight Kuzan; Kuzan stopped him by pointing out his crew is frozen.
Fourth, Teach is generally a coward. He will never fight a strong opponent if he can avoid it.
They are. But we are talking here about estimating potential of a five year old with no Devil Fruit.
Probably.
Because other Yonko did go to hostile Yonko territories?
Big Mom outright invaded Onigashima. Yeah, it didn't go well but she clearly had no issue coming there with Kaido local.
Shanks went to meet Whitebeard knowing he may have to fight him.
Yonko obviously will not seek trouble with each other, but at no point was there any inference that one Yonko's territory is a no-go zone for the other Yonkos the way Greenbull inferred Kaido's territory was for him.
No, he just had that spider vice-Admiral cuff Marco with seastone cuffs. Meanwhile Linlin overpowered Marco and only asked Pero to shoot Marco because Marco's flames are specifically effective against her homies.
She literally manhandled Marco the moment she decided to stop relying on her Devil Fruit:
And? Blackbeard is a coward who will avoid fighting strong opponents if he can at all. He ran away because of Rayleigh's reputation, but Rayleigh was quite clear that Blackbeard will have won had it come to actual fight:
That is not what Sentomaru said:
He is quite clear that it was Rayleigh who stopped Kizaru. And Kizaru then went and captured 500 pirates just to vent his rage.
Honestly, have you even read the manga?
Except the Navy clearly doesn't deal with all the Yonko.
If Navy was capable of matching all the Yonko at the same time, Yonko would not exist. Yonko making alliances would not be considered major news.
Yes, Big Mom and Whitebeard being friends would matter. If Big Mom and Whitebeard are acting separately, Navy can just concentrate forces and deal with them separately (and in event, they generally don't do even that - Navy avoids interfering with the Yonko so long as they are not threatening the Navy or the World Government itself). If they are acting together, then Navy has to treat them as a single threat.
Yonko who are not allies will interfere with each other, which means that 90% of the time Navy doesn't have to do anything - any threat will simply peter out by itself. And if a Yonko makes a move against the Navy, then Navy can focus all of its forces on dealing with a single Yonko. Other Yonko will not attack, or may even attack each other or attack the Yonko who is making a move. In short, so long as all the Yonko are not allies, Navy only needs to have enough strength to deal with one Yonko at a time.
This also means that if Navy could truly match all the four Emperors at the same time, Emperor system would not be viable as Navy could take them out one by one. And Navy isn't even the only force World Government is employing against the Yonkou, as we had the Warlords until the timeskip, then the Pacifista and the Seraphim, and also Cipher Pol agents.
I am saying that they shouldn't be panicking that much.
Navy has four Admiral-level fighters at the time. And despite post-timeskip Navy having been stated to be stronger overall than it was under Sengoku, Akainu was quite clear that Navy does not have the manpower to face Kaido and Big Mom at the same time:
"We don't have the manpower to tear apart those two!"
And the same argument you used for why Admirals don't wipe out the Yonkou individually works here: even if Kaido - Big Mom alliance is stronger than combined forces of the Navy, fighting the Navy would leave them open to attacks from other sides.
Moreover, Navy is not the only threat they would have to face if they go against the World Government, either. Both Kaido and Big Mom were part of the Rocks Pirates. This means that they would know about the God's Knights and perhaps also the Gorosei. Even if Kaido and Big Mom could alone beat all the Admirals, that still would not have been enough to win against the World Government.
Hence the need for ancient weapons.
And that is precisely why Admiral = Yonko makes no sense.
1) Any rookie can do that, so it is hardly an argument.
2) Navy also has vice admirals, and they would logically go along with any Admiral sent to face a Yonko crew.
3) Navy doesn't NEED to respond to the other 3. Yonko are not some sort of a grand alliance. Other three are not going to move just because one did. Remember when Whitebeard attacked Marineford? Kaido went to attack Whitebeard, not the Navy. You could just as well say that Navy Admirals are completely irrelevant.
4) And? You need two Admirals either way. But if one Admiral = one Yonko, then they can literally set one Admiral and a couple of Vice Admirals to kill a Yonko, and another Admiral or a bunch of Vice Admirals to slaughter the Commanders. If however one Yonko is >1 Admiral, then two Admirals would still guarantee a win, but you would need two Admirals for that.
Yet Yonko are still people who refuse the authority of the World Government. You really think any government would tolerate that unless it has to?
Two words: Vice Admirals. If Admirals are exactly equal to Yonko, then you don't need to shift two Admirals to face a single Yonko.
Vice Admirals can stalemate the commanders just fine. Even if a high-ranking Yonko Commander would be far above a Vice Admiral, there are still many more Vice Admirals than Yonko Commanders. And average Yonko Commander is likely not that much stronger than average Vice Admiral.
As for whether "Admiral is barely over half the strength of a Yonko", that depends. If we take a particularly strong Yonko (e.g. Primebeard) and a particularly weak Admiral (Greenbull and Fujitora), then that may be the case. But average Admiral against average Yonko? I'd put it closer to Admiral being 75% - 90% of Yonko's strength. And a strong Admiral will be stronger than a weak Yonko.
But Yonko have to be stronger than Admirals on average, simply due to nature of their respective positions.
You can see this in bounties:
Navy bounties:
Luffy: 3 000 000 000
Buggy: 3 189 000 000
Blackbeard: 3 996 000 000
Shanks: 4 048 900 000
Big Mom: 4 388 000 000
Kaido: 4 611 100 000
Whitebeard: 5 046 000 000
Roger: 5 564 800 000
Cross Guild bounties:
Admirals: 3 000 000 000
Garp: 3 000 000 000
Coby: 500 000 000
Captain: 100 000 000
Bounties are hardly a decisive argument - for example, Whitebeard and Roger were equals in their prime despite Roger's slightly higher bounty - but they do relate to strength at least to an extent (Buggy's bounty is really Mihawk's). And trend here is clear: only the weakest of Yonko are equal to Admirals, but no Yonko is worth two Admirals.
It is not prerequisite to be a "top tier" - I believe I had stated before that I don't think Blackbeard has Conqueror's Haki - but Conqueror's Haki user will nearly always be stronger than a non-CH user.
ALL Emperors except for Blackbeard are known Conqueror's Haki users.
Both known Fleet Admirals - Sengoku and Akainu - are known Conqueror's Haki users.
You can LMAO all you want, but Plot Armor is something neither Conqueror's Haki nor Devil Fruits can overcome. Akainu failed to kill Luffy, failed to kill Jinbei, failed to kill Ivankov, failed to kill Marco, failed to kill Kuma, didn't even try to kill Blackbeard who had just stolen Whitebeard's fruit... if it weren't for plot-related death of Ace he would be on the level of Big Meme, yet calling him weak would obviously be ridiculous.
Luffy wanted to stay and fight. Him running from Fujitora had absolutely nothing to do with Fujitora himself.
Of course, we don't know how the fight will have ended had he stayed and fought. Chances are, he would have been defeated... just as he was when he fought Kaido.
Narrative does.
Yes, Gorosei have no bearing on how the Admirals and the Yonko relate to each other. But they are the ultimate villains, and ones who control the world.
It would be weird if the ultimate villains (Gorosei) ended up weaker than "gatekeeping" villains such as the Admirals and the Yonko.
He is recognized as a Yonko, yes. But he clearly does not command the respect of the old pre-timeskip Yonko did.
No, it does not. And Akainu did originally expect Kizaru to be enough to deal with Luffy.
But as I said: not all Emperors are equal and not all Admirals are equal. A newly forged Emperor like Luffy would obviously not have the respect of somebody like Whitebeard or Kaido.
He will have to earn it.
We also saw that Luffy didn't even treat Aramaki like a threat, despite he himself being beat up from the fight. Granted, he did have allies there, but I doubt he wouldn't try and fight him one-on-one.
Only thing terrible here is your understanding of the manga...
That being said, this entire discussion is irrelevant. In the end, Oda will do what he believes he needs to do for the story to progress, regardless of how much sense it may or may not make.
Second, Yonko Empire.
Meaning Yonko crew + their allied crews.
Third, =~ means "approximately equal".
Capisci?
Then why didn't Navy just wipe them out? That was the goal, after all. And we saw that Admiral can handle a Commander, or even literally all of them, just fine.
LOL! I am probably the first who will tell you that Big Mom is frankly useless, so you can stop bullshitting now.
Armament haki was a thing since Water 7 at least. And Whitebeard couldn't use even basic Observation Haki at the time of Marineford.
And? Akainu is a Logia and Whitebeard was barely able to use Haki if at all. Of course Akainu wouldn't die just from a quake punch.
And yes, Commanders will have lost in the end. Akainu's Haki is superior to theirs, and being a Logia, that means he is essentially invulnerable. And when you look at how even Big Meme performed against Yonko Commanders, and Akainu had significant backup... yeah.
Doesn't mean that Admiral = Yonko.
Lost badly? Whitebeard Pirates damn nearly accomplished their goal despite everything, and only Ace's stupidity prevented that.
Kinemon was obliged to fight Kaido regardless of whether he lives or dies. There is such a thing as honor, you know. What would he have accomplished fighting Fujitora at the time? Different contexts.
Doflamingo' situation however was basically 1 for 1 comparison.
Because they are comparable where he is concerned? Doflamingo is fucking dead regardless of whether Kaido or an Admiral comes after him (as far as Law knows, at least), but that doesn't mean that Emperor = Admiral.
Mihawk was a pirate outside the Navy ranks. How strong he is is a question that has no relevance to question of how strong Admirals are.
Yet when pre-timeskip Supernova - or even post-timeskip ones - actually came face-to-face with Yonko, they generally didn't even try to fight. And when they did, it didn't last long.
Post-timeskip Luffy managed to fight Fujitora for some time before being dragged away by his own crew. Kaido defeated him in one hit upon their first meeting.
This falls apart on multiple levels.
First, why Kuzan wanted to join the Blackbeard Pirates has no relevance to question of strength. Rather, question is why would Blackbeard accept somebody whose loyalties he cannot be certain of if said someone is also stronger than him?
Second, Teach also didn't want to upset Ace when they faced each other, so that particular argument has no relevance to how strong Admirals are relative to Emperors. Teach was one of the weaker Emperors until Kaido's defeat at least, and he is trying to recruit as strong crew as possible to become the Pirate King.
Third, you forget that Kuzan had frozen his entire crew. You can't be an Emperor without a crew, and Teach fighting Kuzan will have killed them all. In fact, Teach was ready to fight Kuzan; Kuzan stopped him by pointing out his crew is frozen.
Fourth, Teach is generally a coward. He will never fight a strong opponent if he can avoid it.
They are. But we are talking here about estimating potential of a five year old with no Devil Fruit.
Probably.
Because other Yonko did go to hostile Yonko territories?
Big Mom outright invaded Onigashima. Yeah, it didn't go well but she clearly had no issue coming there with Kaido local.
Shanks went to meet Whitebeard knowing he may have to fight him.
Yonko obviously will not seek trouble with each other, but at no point was there any inference that one Yonko's territory is a no-go zone for the other Yonkos the way Greenbull inferred Kaido's territory was for him.
No, he just had that spider vice-Admiral cuff Marco with seastone cuffs. Meanwhile Linlin overpowered Marco and only asked Pero to shoot Marco because Marco's flames are specifically effective against her homies.
She literally manhandled Marco the moment she decided to stop relying on her Devil Fruit:
And? Blackbeard is a coward who will avoid fighting strong opponents if he can at all. He ran away because of Rayleigh's reputation, but Rayleigh was quite clear that Blackbeard will have won had it come to actual fight:
That is not what Sentomaru said:
He is quite clear that it was Rayleigh who stopped Kizaru. And Kizaru then went and captured 500 pirates just to vent his rage.
Honestly, have you even read the manga?
Except the Navy clearly doesn't deal with all the Yonko.
If Navy was capable of matching all the Yonko at the same time, Yonko would not exist. Yonko making alliances would not be considered major news.
Yes, Big Mom and Whitebeard being friends would matter. If Big Mom and Whitebeard are acting separately, Navy can just concentrate forces and deal with them separately (and in event, they generally don't do even that - Navy avoids interfering with the Yonko so long as they are not threatening the Navy or the World Government itself). If they are acting together, then Navy has to treat them as a single threat.
Yonko who are not allies will interfere with each other, which means that 90% of the time Navy doesn't have to do anything - any threat will simply peter out by itself. And if a Yonko makes a move against the Navy, then Navy can focus all of its forces on dealing with a single Yonko. Other Yonko will not attack, or may even attack each other or attack the Yonko who is making a move. In short, so long as all the Yonko are not allies, Navy only needs to have enough strength to deal with one Yonko at a time.
This also means that if Navy could truly match all the four Emperors at the same time, Emperor system would not be viable as Navy could take them out one by one. And Navy isn't even the only force World Government is employing against the Yonkou, as we had the Warlords until the timeskip, then the Pacifista and the Seraphim, and also Cipher Pol agents.
I am saying that they shouldn't be panicking that much.
Navy has four Admiral-level fighters at the time. And despite post-timeskip Navy having been stated to be stronger overall than it was under Sengoku, Akainu was quite clear that Navy does not have the manpower to face Kaido and Big Mom at the same time:
"We don't have the manpower to tear apart those two!"
And the same argument you used for why Admirals don't wipe out the Yonkou individually works here: even if Kaido - Big Mom alliance is stronger than combined forces of the Navy, fighting the Navy would leave them open to attacks from other sides.
Moreover, Navy is not the only threat they would have to face if they go against the World Government, either. Both Kaido and Big Mom were part of the Rocks Pirates. This means that they would know about the God's Knights and perhaps also the Gorosei. Even if Kaido and Big Mom could alone beat all the Admirals, that still would not have been enough to win against the World Government.
Hence the need for ancient weapons.
And that is precisely why Admiral = Yonko makes no sense.
1) Any rookie can do that, so it is hardly an argument.
2) Navy also has vice admirals, and they would logically go along with any Admiral sent to face a Yonko crew.
3) Navy doesn't NEED to respond to the other 3. Yonko are not some sort of a grand alliance. Other three are not going to move just because one did. Remember when Whitebeard attacked Marineford? Kaido went to attack Whitebeard, not the Navy. You could just as well say that Navy Admirals are completely irrelevant.
4) And? You need two Admirals either way. But if one Admiral = one Yonko, then they can literally set one Admiral and a couple of Vice Admirals to kill a Yonko, and another Admiral or a bunch of Vice Admirals to slaughter the Commanders. If however one Yonko is >1 Admiral, then two Admirals would still guarantee a win, but you would need two Admirals for that.
Yet Yonko are still people who refuse the authority of the World Government. You really think any government would tolerate that unless it has to?
Two words: Vice Admirals. If Admirals are exactly equal to Yonko, then you don't need to shift two Admirals to face a single Yonko.
Vice Admirals can stalemate the commanders just fine. Even if a high-ranking Yonko Commander would be far above a Vice Admiral, there are still many more Vice Admirals than Yonko Commanders. And average Yonko Commander is likely not that much stronger than average Vice Admiral.
As for whether "Admiral is barely over half the strength of a Yonko", that depends. If we take a particularly strong Yonko (e.g. Primebeard) and a particularly weak Admiral (Greenbull and Fujitora), then that may be the case. But average Admiral against average Yonko? I'd put it closer to Admiral being 75% - 90% of Yonko's strength. And a strong Admiral will be stronger than a weak Yonko.
But Yonko have to be stronger than Admirals on average, simply due to nature of their respective positions.
You can see this in bounties:
Navy bounties:
Luffy: 3 000 000 000
Buggy: 3 189 000 000
Blackbeard: 3 996 000 000
Shanks: 4 048 900 000
Big Mom: 4 388 000 000
Kaido: 4 611 100 000
Whitebeard: 5 046 000 000
Roger: 5 564 800 000
Cross Guild bounties:
Admirals: 3 000 000 000
Garp: 3 000 000 000
Coby: 500 000 000
Captain: 100 000 000
Bounties are hardly a decisive argument - for example, Whitebeard and Roger were equals in their prime despite Roger's slightly higher bounty - but they do relate to strength at least to an extent (Buggy's bounty is really Mihawk's). And trend here is clear: only the weakest of Yonko are equal to Admirals, but no Yonko is worth two Admirals.
It is not prerequisite to be a "top tier" - I believe I had stated before that I don't think Blackbeard has Conqueror's Haki - but Conqueror's Haki user will nearly always be stronger than a non-CH user.
ALL Emperors except for Blackbeard are known Conqueror's Haki users.
Both known Fleet Admirals - Sengoku and Akainu - are known Conqueror's Haki users.
You can LMAO all you want, but Plot Armor is something neither Conqueror's Haki nor Devil Fruits can overcome. Akainu failed to kill Luffy, failed to kill Jinbei, failed to kill Ivankov, failed to kill Marco, failed to kill Kuma, didn't even try to kill Blackbeard who had just stolen Whitebeard's fruit... if it weren't for plot-related death of Ace he would be on the level of Big Meme, yet calling him weak would obviously be ridiculous.
Luffy wanted to stay and fight. Him running from Fujitora had absolutely nothing to do with Fujitora himself.
Of course, we don't know how the fight will have ended had he stayed and fought. Chances are, he would have been defeated... just as he was when he fought Kaido.
Narrative does.
Yes, Gorosei have no bearing on how the Admirals and the Yonko relate to each other. But they are the ultimate villains, and ones who control the world.
It would be weird if the ultimate villains (Gorosei) ended up weaker than "gatekeeping" villains such as the Admirals and the Yonko.
He is recognized as a Yonko, yes. But he clearly does not command the respect of the old pre-timeskip Yonko did.
No, it does not. And Akainu did originally expect Kizaru to be enough to deal with Luffy.
But as I said: not all Emperors are equal and not all Admirals are equal. A newly forged Emperor like Luffy would obviously not have the respect of somebody like Whitebeard or Kaido.
He will have to earn it.
We also saw that Luffy didn't even treat Aramaki like a threat, despite he himself being beat up from the fight. Granted, he did have allies there, but I doubt he wouldn't try and fight him one-on-one.
Only thing terrible here is your understanding of the manga...
That being said, this entire discussion is irrelevant. In the end, Oda will do what he believes he needs to do for the story to progress, regardless of how much sense it may or may not make.
Either way, I’ll try to keep the points short:
1. That’s pointless prevarication. Yonko allies are already considered included when referring to Yonko crews. It makes no difference anyway, so that’s just a pathetic excuse. Eustass Kid alone could wipe out all the Red Hair Pirates allies. Did you think a bit more fodder somehow bridged the massive gap between the Navy & Warlords and 1 Yonko crew?
They’re simply nowhere close to equal. The Navy & Warlords counter all 4 Yonko empires. Just 1 obviously falls far short.
2. Marineford was a plan to entrap the pirates and minimize casualties. The purpose was to lure the pirates into the bay and have an Admiral wipe them out with his attack. That only failed because of the outside interference of Luffy. Luffy allowed the pirates to escape into the plaza.
From there it was just plot convenience making Admirals disappear on and off, and Garp & Sengoku doing nothing.
3. You may call Big Mom useless, but I bet you would never say the entire Big Mom Pirates =~ half the Strawhats. Still a blatant double standard.
4. You were using conquerors Haki as an excuse, so why switch to talking about armament and observation? Neither was it ever stated that WB couldn’t use observation Haki facing enemies.
5. Akainu is a logia…and? How does that change that he was attacked from behind? And of course WB could use Haki or he wouldn’t be able to damage him in the first place. Trying to dismiss the context already exposes the paucity of your claim.
Akainu was backed up by fodder. Not sure why you consider that significant. He took down the Commander with his own hands after all.
It doesn’t mean Yonko > Admiral either…so you’d have to explain why you’re treating that as some sort of default.
6. Yes the WB pirates lost badly. If events continued, they’d have been wiped out to a man without a single notable casualty among the top fighters of the Navy. And that’s with many of them doing little or some barely anything at all. They only reason Ace was freed was because of the external help of Luffy’s group. Without Luffy, it would only be much worse with all the pirates boiled alive in the bay without even making it into the plaza. There are a dozen instances when it would have been game over for the pirates:
- Hancock gave Luffy the key to Ace’s cuffs
- Jimbe protected Luffy from Moriah
- Hancock protected Luffy from Smoker
- Ivankov gave Luffy a hormone injection to keep him going
- Mr. 3 replicated Ace’s key after Kizaru destroyed it
- Crocodile stopped the 1st execution attempt on Ace
- Luffy stopped the 2nd execution attempt
- Hancock protected Luffy from the pacifista
- Garp allowed Luffy to pass him to the platform
- Crocodile protected Luffy from Mihawk
I’m sure you get the idea by now…
7. Ah…the double standards. You remembered context when it came to Kinemon but not Doflamingo.
Doffy was a former Celestial Dragon that blackmailed the government to keep Fujitora off him, but he obviously couldn’t do the same for Kaido. If only you’d remembered context when it came to the Admiral.
8. Yet you tried to use Doffy’s reaction to Kaido whom he couldn’t blackmail vs an Admiral answering to the WG which he could. So you should have known that doesn’t mean Yonko > Admiral, yet you tried to use it. Why the hypocrisy?
Also, that was more for the point of Law also considering them comparable.
9. Mihawk is literally part of the Warlords…the same ones you included in 1 Yonko empire =~ Navy & Warlords. If you considered him comparable to a Yonko, then that equation obviously doesn’t work. Sounds like you confused yourself.
10. That’s just incorrect. All the Supernova minus Hawkins & Apoo tried to fight the Yonko they encountered. It didn’t last long when they tried to fight an Admiral either…so what was the point of mentioning it?
You’re also doing that “pretending to forget context thing” again. You can’t pretend to have forgetting Fujitora fanboying for Luffy and even being reluctant to go after him at all. Why the dishonesty?
11. Blackbeard himself already stated that he doesn’t care for loyalties to begin with, everyone has their own agenda. It’s also pointless because all the top tiers generally believe that they can beat each other anyway. Blackbeard considers himself to be the strongest. So does that mean the other Yonko aren’t comparable?
Besides that, Teach not wanting to lose his crew ( though he’s shown he doesn’t mind if needed) has no bearing on Kuzan’s strength or why he joined the crew. You were disingenuously trying to act like Kuzan joining was a sign he considered himself inferior which is simply not the case. He only joined because it’s convenient for his own agenda.
12. Yes, a 5 year old freak of nature had Carmel dreaming of Admirals. That only emphasizes the point of the strength standard.
13. Ah, good ole cherrypicking. Big Mom went to Wano, but WB who was even stronger didn’t. Shanks didn’t either. So does that mean that the latter 2 aren’t “Yonko level?” That’s why trying to use that as some measure of strength is silly.
Also, Greenbull’s words apply to the other Yonko as well. It’s not until 20 years after that Big Mom decided to go (conveniently when the Navy was already busy), so that’s the exception, not the rule.
It also doesn’t work since Greenbull was going after the man who beat Kaido anyway. Kaido was part of the balance of the world that they were trying to maintain, so why randomly go after him in the first place? Is that more reason than WB or Shanks had to go, when their beloved Oden’s children were likely suffering there? Double standards never work.
14. Linlin still asked someone else to attack Marco for her and then fled when that person was attacked. By her very own words it would take too much of her power to deal with Marco…so why didn’t you give the same consideration to Kizaru?
He certainly didn’t have Perospero beside him to attack Marco for him, so why would he grab Marco like Linlin? He still damaged Marco, making him use his regen unlike Linlin as well.
How does either case put one over the other which you were clearly trying to do?
15. You were the one trying to use Blackbeard and Rayleigh to put the Yonko over the Admirals, don’t look at me. In the same manner, Kizaru said that they would accomplish their goal despite Rayleigh’s interference. The main difference is that Kizaru deigned to actually fight while Blackbeard just ran.
16. Um….how is what Sentomaru said supposed to be relevant? Rayleigh indeed was the one who stopped Kizaru, but Kuma is the reason the Strawhats escaped. Nowhere did Sentomaru say that the 500 pirates Kizaru captured was directly because of Rayleigh.
Do you even read the manga? Kizaru with his own words makes it clear that they expected to catch the Strawhats anyway despite Rayleigh’s interference. It’s Kuma’s betrayal that screwed them over.
17. Well obviously. Most of the Yonko hardly leave their territories to begin with. The Navy can only deal with them when they obviously need to be dealt with…does that even need to be explained? The point is that the Navy doesn’t have the luxury of expecting a turn by turn rpg. They have to be prepared to deal with all of them making moves.
How would that mean that Yonko making alliances would somehow not be major news? That’s just silly. Even Law teaming up with Luffy was major news. That excuse doesn’t even make sense in the real world. Even something basic as crime families teaming up is major news for the police even if they are far more powerful than them individually.
What stops other Yonko from making a move if one is already doing so? Again, did you think they had some kind of law stopping them? Other Yonko can most certainly attack regardless of another is already doing so.
That’s just so silly. Imagine telling the US Army that their enemies can only attack 1 at a time and they shouldn’t be prepared for multiple potentially taking action. That’s just common sense beyond manga.
18. Fodder would always panic. That’s a goddamn given. You only have yourself to blame for taking it that seriously. It’s also still just a blatant double standard because by your reasoning, Strawhats like Usopp and Nami shouldn’t have been panicking that much when a single Admiral entered the Labophase and they outnumbered him.
19. You should read your panels. Akainu says “we don’t have the manpower for now,” obviously referring to the present circumstances…not that they couldn’t once that had passed.
The other excuse about Gorosei or God’s Knights doesn’t work when they’re specifically talking about the Navy when mentioning the Ancient Weapons. The alliance simply didn’t have enough on their own to hope to overthrow the Navy…especially when they lost to a force much weaker than that in the first place.
20. Um…no. You were the one claiming that Yonko must be stronger than Admirals otherwise 2 Admirals would go wipe out a Yonko crew. Pointing out that it isn’t a structured match only shows why that claim makes no sense.
21. - “Any rookie can do that” is completely irrelevant. What’s that supposed to change? That the Navy shouldn’t then consider the Yonko simply leaving for some reason?
Then you just repeat the silly “the other 3 must be magically bound to their territories” excuse. The other 3 Yonko certainly don’t need your permission to move. They can do so if they want to. Being prepared for that is just basic military 101.
Besides that, nice try pretending that just Vice Admirals would be sufficient for all Yonko Commanders. The Warlords would obviously be needed to keep those occupied.
Your scenario also doesn’t work unless the Navy force greatly outnumbers the Yonko crew’s in the first place. The greater force is the one that can dictate who gets assigned to who.
22. Well duh! Trying to wipe out the Yonko is a pointless waste of resources for the WG when the Yonko can just do part of their work for them. Again, do you even read the manga? The WG is always trying to maintain the balance of the world for a reason.
It’s like asking why the US doesn’t try to wipe out the mafia…or ancient European empires the pirates. Just because you can doesn’t mean it’s a wise decision or worth the cost.
That’s precisely why the “why don’t they wipe out the Yonko” excuse is one of the silliest of them all.
23. “Vice Admirals can stalemate the Commanders just fine.” That just a big LOL. Vice Admirals with a fleet of warships couldn’t handle Crocodile and Mr. 1. Come on now…
And in case you were unaware, Cross Guild bounties aren’t WG bounties. The fact that you even tried to use that in earnest is laughable. Even entertaining that, CG bounties are barely weeks old and the Admirals starting bounties are already comparable or higher than Yonko starting bounties.
Most of the Yonko have built up bounties by several years. One of the newest (BB) went from 2.24 to 3.99 in 2 years, so one could just say the Admiral bounties would follow a similar pattern and likewise rise to be beyond 4 billion in 2 years.
The excuse falls apart either way.
24. Akainu isn’t a known conquerors Haki user. Are you just making up facts now? Even Sengoku is only listed in a databook and not in the manga itself. Nothing stops a non user from being stronger than one, so that while excuse is just irrelevant. Neither Kid nor Law needed it to be breaking the bones of a CoC user.
Akainu failed to kill Jimbe & Luffy because a world-class surgeon showed up to save them. Without Law they’d have died by his own words. He never intended to kill Marco or Ivankov, so that’s just irrelevant.
The point is that you trying to place conquerors Haki on a pedestal doesn’t work since there are other abilities and strengths, not that it’s weak.
25. Of course Luffy would have been defeated if he tried to stay to fight Fuji. Luffy hardly ever runs from anyone, so again it’s just a moot point.
26. What respect do old pre-skip Yonko command that Luffy isn’t getting? Is it just the baseless assumption that the WG wouldn’t just carry out their operation anyway? The only difference so far in comparison is Luffy’s longevity in the role, but he’s a Yonko through and through. Also even more feared than the rest due to the Nika connection. The WG would have preferred him dying to Kaido than the other way around.
27. Yes it obviously gets worse for the Strawhats with no Vegapunk. There would be no bubble guns to trap the Seraphim, so they’d have to deal with both them and the fleet. Then the Pacifista get thrown in there too. It just becomes an unmitigated slaughter.
Luffy has gotten respect as the man that even beat Kaido, so what does Kaido have on him? WB is the one that’s a different case.
Luffy leaving the middle of a party to go stand watch is the definition of considering something a threat btw.
I think it’s pretty clear that all your double standards, prevarications, ignoring context (wilfully in some cases), mistakes, disingenuous claims and even basic lack of military sense are all terrible. It’s just the same with all attempts to try and elevate the Yonko because they always just boil down to some illogical base or fabricated nonsense.
The “military forces must not consider all their enemies attacking but should always just assume they can only go 1 at a time” is the most basic example. It’s really not that hard…
@Aldarion at the very least if you don’t answer anything else, answer why your basic math doesn’t add up even using your very own reasoning.
Comparing Navy & Warlords to Big Mom pirates:
- Big Mom = 4.3 billion
Vs
Sengoku = 3 billion
Akainu = 3 billion
- Katakuri = 1.06 billion
Vs
Aokiji = 3 billion
- Smoothie = 932 million
Vs
Kizaru = 3 billion
- Cracker = 865 million
Vs
Mihawk = 3.59 billion
- Perospero = 700 million
Vs
Garp = 3 billion
Then with the next couple you have:
BMP = 600 mil, 425 mil, 332 mil, 300 mil, etc (exact numbers may be incorrect cuz I’m going offhand)
N & W = 1.95 bil, 1.65 bil, 1.1 bil, 500 mil (x 24 for known Vice Admirals), etc.
And then the Navy has at current best guess 5 times the fodder.
So how on God’s green earth did you end up with both of those forces being anywhere near comparable?
This is with disingenuously using CG bounties as well, the very same that you tried to use.
Comparing Navy & Warlords to Big Mom pirates:
- Big Mom = 4.3 billion
Vs
Sengoku = 3 billion
Akainu = 3 billion
- Katakuri = 1.06 billion
Vs
Aokiji = 3 billion
- Smoothie = 932 million
Vs
Kizaru = 3 billion
- Cracker = 865 million
Vs
Mihawk = 3.59 billion
- Perospero = 700 million
Vs
Garp = 3 billion
Then with the next couple you have:
BMP = 600 mil, 425 mil, 332 mil, 300 mil, etc (exact numbers may be incorrect cuz I’m going offhand)
N & W = 1.95 bil, 1.65 bil, 1.1 bil, 500 mil (x 24 for known Vice Admirals), etc.
And then the Navy has at current best guess 5 times the fodder.
So how on God’s green earth did you end up with both of those forces being anywhere near comparable?
This is with disingenuously using CG bounties as well, the very same that you tried to use.
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