Best Character Development Round 1 Bracket 1

WHO WINS EACH FIGHT?


  • Total voters
    46
  • Poll closed .

Marimo_420

The Honoured One
โ€Ž
#41
My honour demands I vote for Zuko.
:endthis:
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Jaime went back to Kingโ€™s Landing to go die with his sister. So basically he went back to the way he was at the start of the show. I thought character development meant that we were supposed to see some change? ๐ŸŒš
Consistency is key.
 

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#42
Cersei is so damn dumb Its unbelievable. You finished the show and still say that lol.
What?

Cersei is the farthest thing away from dumb.

She plotted the death of her husband and King in order to give her child the throne, and succeeded in it.

She was the first one to notice that the Tyrell's are plotting to marry off Sansa to Loras in order to get the North for them and even had to warn Tywin of it. While Tywin didn't even consider it and was made to look dumb.

She was able to take care off a problem she herself created with the Sparrow and at the same time take out a threat in Margaery, who had ample control of Tommen. Cersei was the first to notice how Tommen was becoming Margaery's pet and she managed to solve that. Taking out both the Sparrow and his followers as well as Margaery and other enemies such as Pycelle all in one swoop.

Even after the death of her children she remained strong and in power. She succeeded in getting to the Iron Throne and took control of the city and the Kingdom.

She successfully predicted Tyrion's and Daeny's moves and ambushed them and succeeded in taking out a dragon and crippling the enemies' forces. She tricked Daeny Jon and Tyrion and sent them to fight death itself while she made her army stronger. She succeeded in evening out the odds even though she was vastly outnumbered.

Her strategy of using the innocent against Daeny and her forces was also brilliant. The Breaker of Chains and the protector of innocents and the woman that wanted to create a better world shouldn't have slaughtered all those people.


Cersei is very very very smart. And that's off the top of my head. I am sure I forgot something. @Zara chime in.
 
#43
What?

Cersei is the farthest thing away from dumb.

She plotted the death of her husband and King in order to give her child the throne, and succeeded in it.

She was the first one to notice that the Tyrell's are plotting to marry off Sansa to Loras in order to get the North for them and even had to warn Tywin of it. While Tywin didn't even consider it and was made to look dumb.

She was able to take care off a problem she herself created with the Sparrow and at the same time take out a threat in Margaery, who had ample control of Tommen. Cersei was the first to notice how Tommen was becoming Margaery's pet and she managed to solve that. Taking out both the Sparrow and his followers as well as Margaery and other enemies such as Pycelle all in one swoop.

Even after the death of her children she remained strong and in power. She succeeded in getting to the Iron Throne and took control of the city and the Kingdom.

She successfully predicted Tyrion's and Daeny's moves and ambushed them and succeeded in taking out a dragon and crippling the enemies' forces. She tricked Daeny Jon and Tyrion and sent them to fight death itself while she made her army stronger. She succeeded in evening out the odds even though she was vastly outnumbered.

Her strategy of using the innocent against Daeny and her forces was also brilliant. The Breaker of Chains and the protector of innocents and the woman that wanted to create a better world shouldn't have slaughtered all those people.


Cersei is very very very smart. And that's off the top of my head. I am sure I forgot something. @Zara chime in.
Nah, she dumb.
 
#45
What?

Cersei is the farthest thing away from dumb.

She plotted the death of her husband and King in order to give her child the throne, and succeeded in it.

She was the first one to notice that the Tyrell's are plotting to marry off Sansa to Loras in order to get the North for them and even had to warn Tywin of it. While Tywin didn't even consider it and was made to look dumb.

She was able to take care off a problem she herself created with the Sparrow and at the same time take out a threat in Margaery, who had ample control of Tommen. Cersei was the first to notice how Tommen was becoming Margaery's pet and she managed to solve that. Taking out both the Sparrow and his followers as well as Margaery and other enemies such as Pycelle all in one swoop.

Even after the death of her children she remained strong and in power. She succeeded in getting to the Iron Throne and took control of the city and the Kingdom.

She successfully predicted Tyrion's and Daeny's moves and ambushed them and succeeded in taking out a dragon and crippling the enemies' forces. She tricked Daeny Jon and Tyrion and sent them to fight death itself while she made her army stronger. She succeeded in evening out the odds even though she was vastly outnumbered.

Her strategy of using the innocent against Daeny and her forces was also brilliant. The Breaker of Chains and the protector of innocents and the woman that wanted to create a better world shouldn't have slaughtered all those people.


Cersei is very very very smart. And that's off the top of my head. I am sure I forgot something. @Zara chime in.
Cersei is very smart. A lot of the fanbase just dislikes her so they're biased against her. At the very least even if someone considers Cersei dumb, then they have to concede that Tywin and Jaime are even dumber than Cersei. There really isn't anyway to argue that those two are smarter than Cersei. Personally, I thought it was very obvious that Tyrion and Cersei were the brains behind House Lannister while Tywin and Jaime were clearly the brawn.


If there's one thing I noticed that the show likes to do, it's to show Cersei having a conversation with someone where the other person is treating her like an idiot, when in reality, everything Cersei is saying is actually correct and the other person is the idiot. You see it very clearly in these two videos. The part where Cersei is trying to tell Jaime how Dany's dragons are vulnerable and Jaime is dismissing her by saying that the "for all we know, it's guarding her fleet" is hilarious.




Another example of Cersei's intelligence was when she was about to get her husband killed in broad daylight and make it look like an accident. If you recall there was a tournament to celebrate Ned becoming Hand of the King early on during Book 1/Season 1. Look at how Cersei was manipulating Robert and Ned in the quote below.


โ€œHow did you get past my other guards?โ€ Ned asked. Porther and Cayn had been posted outside the tower, and Alyn on the stairs.

โ€œThe Red Keep has ways known only to ghosts and spiders.โ€ Varys smiled apologetically. โ€œI will not keep you long, my lord. There are things you must know. You are the Kingโ€™s Hand, and the king is a fool.โ€ The eunuchโ€™s cloying tones were gone; now his voice was thin and sharp as a whip. โ€œYour friend, I know, yet a fool nonetheless . . . and doomed, unless you save him. Today was a near thing. They had hoped to kill him during the melee.โ€

For a moment Ned was speechless with shock. โ€œWho?โ€

Varys sipped his wine. โ€œIf I truly need to tell you that, you are a bigger fool than Robert and I am on the wrong side.โ€

โ€œThe Lannisters,โ€ Ned said. โ€œThe queen . . . no, I will not believe that, not even of Cersei. She asked him not to fight!โ€

โ€œShe forbade him to fight, in front of his brother, his knights, and half the court. Tell me truly, do you know any surer way to force King Robert into the melee? I ask you.โ€

Ned had a sick feeling in his gut. The eunuch had hit upon a truth; tell Robert Baratheon he could not, should not, or must not do a thing, and it was as good as done. โ€œEven if heโ€™d fought, who would have dared to strike the king?โ€

Varys shrugged. โ€œThere were forty riders in the melee. The Lannisters have many friends. Amidst all that chaos, with horses screaming and bones breaking and Thoros of Myr waving that absurd firesword of his, who could name it murder if some chance blow felled His Grace?โ€ He went to the flagon and refilled his cup. โ€œAfter the deed was done, the slayer would be beside himself with grief. I can almost hear him weeping. So sad. Yet no doubt the gracious and compassionate widow would take pity, lift the poor unfortunate to his feet, and bless him with a gentle kiss of forgiveness. Good King Joffrey would have no choice but to pardon him.โ€ The eunuch stroked his cheek. โ€œOr perhaps Cersei would let Ser Ilyn strike off his head. Less risk for the Lannisters that way, though quite an unpleasant surprise for their little friend.โ€
 
#46
Cersei is very smart. A lot of the fanbase just dislikes her so they're biased against her. At the very least even if someone considers Cersei dumb, then they have to concede that Tywin and Jaime are even dumber than Cersei. There really isn't anyway to argue that those two are smarter than Cersei. Personally, I thought it was very obvious that Tyrion and Cersei were the brains behind House Lannister while Tywin and Jaime were clearly the brawn.


If there's one thing I noticed that the show likes to do, it's to show Cersei having a conversation with someone where the other person is treating her like an idiot, when in reality, everything Cersei is saying is actually correct and the other person is the idiot. You see it very clearly in these two videos. The part where Cersei is trying to tell Jaime how Dany's dragons are vulnerable and Jaime is dismissing her by saying that the "for all we know, it's guarding her fleet" is hilarious.




Another example of Cersei's intelligence was when she was about to get her husband killed in broad daylight and make it look like an accident. If you recall there was a tournament to celebrate Ned becoming Hand of the King early on during Book 1/Season 1. Look at how Cersei was manipulating Robert and Ned in the quote below.
Nah she dumb.

Arming religious fanatics and giving them power when you have been engaging in sinful behaviour will remain one of the most retarded things Ive ever saw someone do.

Or letting Tywin win the war for her while sheโ€™s losing control over Joffrey.

Tywin is not the brawn, Tywin is smart too. Smarter than Cersei for damn sure. He orchestrated a big ass low diff in history against the north.

Or how could I forget her genius move of saying fuck you to the Iron Bank and stopping any more payment towards them.

Result: They go to Stannis and fund his war.
 
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Light D Lamperouge

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#47
Cersei is very smart. A lot of the fanbase just dislikes her so they're biased against her. At the very least even if someone considers Cersei dumb, then they have to concede that Tywin and Jaime are even dumber than Cersei. There really isn't anyway to argue that those two are smarter than Cersei. Personally, I thought it was very obvious that Tyrion and Cersei were the brains behind House Lannister while Tywin and Jaime were clearly the brawn.


If there's one thing I noticed that the show likes to do, it's to show Cersei having a conversation with someone where the other person is treating her like an idiot, when in reality, everything Cersei is saying is actually correct and the other person is the idiot. You see it very clearly in these two videos. The part where Cersei is trying to tell Jaime how Dany's dragons are vulnerable and Jaime is dismissing her by saying that the "for all we know, it's guarding her fleet" is hilarious.




Another example of Cersei's intelligence was when she was about to get her husband killed in broad daylight and make it look like an accident. If you recall there was a tournament to celebrate Ned becoming Hand of the King early on during Book 1/Season 1. Look at how Cersei was manipulating Robert and Ned in the quote below.
I absolutely agree. Jamie is deffo dumber. No contest there lmao. Cersei even calls him the dumbest Lannister. :milaugh:


Jamie fans should do like their fave and bow down to the superiority of Cersei and her fans :jordanmf:
 
#49
Arming religious fanatics and giving them power when you have been engaging in sinful behaviour will remain one of the most retarded things Ive ever saw someone do.
That was a dumb decision on Cersei's part, nobody is claiming that she's flawless and never made mistakes before. However, I can point out to you even dumber decisions that Tywin and Jaime did if you want.

Or letting Tywin win the war for her while sheโ€™s losing control over Joffrey.
What do you mean by letting Tywin winning the war? Were you expecting her to put on armor and grab a sword and fight alongside her father? Cersei was the Queen Regent and her job was to prepare King's Landing for an invasion and she did that.

Not to mention, you do know it was Tywin and Jaime who escalated the situation that made war happen in the first place right? It was Jaime who attacked Ned and his men in the street, and it was Tywin who started raiding the Riverlands and killing everyone. It was also Jaime who pushed Bran out of a window when Cersei begged him not to do something so silly. Cersei's idea was just to lie to Bran and tell him he didn't see what he thought he saw. Because Bran actually just thought that they were wrestling at the time.

There didn't even need to be a war in the first place if Tywin and Jaime weren't acting wild.

Tywin is not the brawn, Tywin is smart too. Smarter than Cersei for damn sure. He orchestrated a big ass low diff in history against the north.
Tywin didn't low diff anyone. Tywin lost every battle to Rob on the battlefield. It was Rob breaking his vow to Frey by getting horny over a new girl and Stannis killing Renly that led to House Lannister winning the war, not because of Tywin. A war that Tywin started for no good reason at all I might add. Tyrion getting kidnapped isn't a good excuse to start a war, especially when the king is your son in law. All Tywin had to do was send Robert a message saying "catelyn stark is a retard, please release my son", and the problem would have been solved. We even see Robert ordering Ned to tell Catelyn to release Tyrion, so there really was no need for any war.

I mean think about it, at the start of the war in season 1/book 1 Tywin was up against House Stark and House Tully. House Arryn was ruled by the daughter of the Lord of House Tully, so Tywin would assume they are his enemies also. House Greyjoy burned down the Lannister fleet a decade ago so there's another potential enemy. Renly's marriage to Margaery means that House Baratheon and House Tyrell are against the Lannisters also. So basically...every Great House has an issue with House Lannister, and Tywin still decides to declare war. Far worse than any dumb decision Cersei has ever made. Especially knowing that Tywin didn't need to declare war to begin with. House Lannister almost got wiped off the map during Season 1 and 2 all because of Tywin.

This gets further explained in the first book when one of Rob's men tells Rob to bend the knee to King Renly, because then that will mean it will be House Lannister versus everybody else.

โ€œRenly is crowned,โ€ said Marq Piper. โ€œHighgarden and Stormโ€™s End support his claim, and the Dornishmen will not be laggardly. If Winterfell and Riverrun add their strength to his, he will have five of the seven great houses behind him. Six, if the Arryns bestir themselves! Six against the Rock! My lords, within the year, we will have all their heads on pikes, the queen and the boy king, Lord Tywin, the Imp, the Kingslayer, Ser Kevan, all of them! That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?โ€


Even Tywin's own brother asks him to sue for peace because their situation is hopeless. Tywin didn't low diff anyone. Stannis killing Renly with a magical shadow baby and Rob falling inlove is how the Lannisters won the war. If Stannis didn't kill his brother, then every Lannister would be dead and Renly would be sitting on the Iron Throne now.



Since you praise Tywin's intelligence so much, then explain how declaring a war when you don't need to and when you got so many enemies is such a smart decision. Tywin should thank Stannis and Rob's wife for carrying him on their backs. Those two won the war for House Lannister, not Tywin.
 
#50
That was a dumb decision on Cersei's part, nobody is claiming that she's flawless and never made mistakes before. However, I can point out to you even dumber decisions that Tywin and Jaime did if you want.



What do you mean by letting Tywin winning the war? Were you expecting her to put on armor and grab a sword and fight alongside her father? Cersei was the Queen Regent and her job was to prepare King's Landing for an invasion and she did that.

Not to mention, you do know it was Tywin and Jaime who escalated the situation that made war happen in the first place right? It was Jaime who attacked Ned and his men in the street, and it was Tywin who started raiding the Riverlands and killing everyone. It was also Jaime who pushed Bran out of a window when Cersei begged him not to do something so silly. Cersei's idea was just to lie to Bran and tell him he didn't see what he thought he saw. Because Bran actually just thought that they were wrestling at the time.

There didn't even need to be a war in the first place if Tywin and Jaime weren't acting wild.



Tywin didn't low diff anyone. Tywin lost every battle to Rob on the battlefield. It was Rob breaking his vow to Frey by getting horny over a new girl and Stannis killing Renly that led to House Lannister winning the war, not because of Tywin. A war that Tywin started for no good reason at all I might add. Tyrion getting kidnapped isn't a good excuse to start a war, especially when the king is your son in law. All Tywin had to do was send Robert a message saying "catelyn stark is a retard, please release my son", and the problem would have been solved. We even see Robert ordering Ned to tell Catelyn to release Tyrion, so there really was no need for any war.

I mean think about it, at the start of the war in season 1/book 1 Tywin was up against House Stark and House Tully. House Arryn was ruled by the daughter of the Lord of House Tully, so Tywin would assume they are his enemies also. House Greyjoy burned down the Lannister fleet a decade ago so there's another potential enemy. Renly's marriage to Margaery means that House Baratheon and House Tyrell are against the Lannisters also. So basically...every Great House has an issue with House Lannister, and Tywin still decides to declare war. Far worse than any dumb decision Cersei has ever made. Especially knowing that Tywin didn't need to declare war to begin with. House Lannister almost got wiped off the map during Season 1 and 2 all because of Tywin.

This gets further explained in the first book when one of Rob's men tells Rob to bend the knee to King Renly, because then that will mean it will be House Lannister versus everybody else.





Even Tywin's own brother asks him to sue for peace because there situation is hopeless. Tywin didn't low diff anyone. Stannis killing Renly with a magical shadow baby and Rob falling inlove is how the Lannisters won the war. If Stannis didn't kill his brother, then every Lannister would be dead and Renly would be sitting on the Iron Throne now.



Since you praise Tywin's intelligence so much, then explain how declaring a war when you don't need to and when you got so many enemies is such a smart decision. Tywin should thank Stannis and Rob's wife for carrying him on his back.
Tywin won the war that mattered, he styled on the starks at the red wedding.

She dumb. Why you ignoring the Iron bank situation? Or her giving waters a fleet? Or her thinking her handmaidens are plotting against her because her robe shrank? :suresure:

She's a naive woman who thinks she's smarter than she really is:

His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted. She had been giddy as a maiden when she learned that Stannis had abandoned Dragonstone, certain that he had finally given up the fight and sailed away to exile. When word came down from the north that he had turned up again at the Wall, her fury had been fearful to behold. She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience. "You need a strong Hand to help you."
 

Doggo

Welcome to the House of Hope
โ€Ž
#51
Cersei is smart. I give her that.
And the book gives her a much needed backstory for us to understand her as a person.
Having said that, "show Cersei" is EXTREMELY narrow minded. She fucking blew one of the most important buildings in king's landing, but thank the gods the showrunners are complete incompetents and make her face no consequences at all.
Even more lucky for her, the showrunners decided to take one of the most menacing, interesting, and fucking awesome characters in the book, Euron Greyjoy, and turn him into some horny ass mercenary clown "i waNnA FocK ThE qUeeN" that works for her for who knows what reason.
Book Cersei was traumatized by a witch's prophecy that said one of her brothers was gonna kill her. She was gonna lose her children. Some other younger and more beautiful queen would take her place.
These are all important pieces to understand why Cersei acts the way she acts. Why she despises Tyrion (since she believes Jaime loves her and would never hurt her), why she can't raise her children properly, the fear of losing them, why she views every single "queen candidate" as a huge menacing. She's constantly trying to fight the prophecy.
Show Cersei is a bad constructed cringe "girl power villain" BS that the garbage showrunners decided to put together to appeal to some audience and when being pointed at, they could spit a bunch of "you hate her because she woman" nonsense. Hiding their incompetence behind some fake "cancel culture" plot.
There isn't a SINGLE character after season 5 that is GOOD. Definitely not that filler kid that, for some reason, the internet decided to adopt and say she's badass or whatever.
Fuck that show.
Defending that pile of garbage should be illegal.
 
#52
Cersei is smart. I give her that.
And the book gives her a much needed backstory for us to understand her as a person.
Having said that, "show Cersei" is EXTREMELY narrow minded. She fucking blew one of the most important buildings in king's landing, but thank the gods the showrunners are complete incompetents and make her face no consequences at all.
Even more lucky for her, the showrunners decided to take one of the most menacing, interesting, and fucking awesome characters in the book, Euron Greyjoy, and turn him into some horny ass mercenary clown "i waNnA FocK ThE qUeeN" that works for her for who knows what reason.
Book Cersei was traumatized by a witch's prophecy that said one of her brothers was gonna kill her. She was gonna lose her children. Some other younger and more beautiful queen would take her place.
These are all important pieces to understand why Cersei acts the way she acts. Why she despises Tyrion (since she believes Jaime loves her and would never hurt her), why she can't raise her children properly, the fear of losing them, why she views every single "queen candidate" as a huge menacing. She's constantly trying to fight the prophecy.
Show Cersei is a bad constructed cringe "girl power villain" BS that the garbage showrunners decided to put together to appeal to some audience and when being pointed at, they could spit a bunch of "you hate her because she woman" nonsense. Hiding their incompetence behind some fake "cancel culture" plot.
There isn't a SINGLE character after season 5 that is GOOD. Definitely not that filler kid that, for some reason, the internet decided to adopt and say she's badass or whatever.
Fuck that show.
Defending that pile of garbage should be illegal.
Thatโ€™s kind of the point of her character. Sheโ€™s the first born and believes that she should be Tywin's heir but obviously isnโ€™t because sheโ€™s a woman. She wants to prove that she is as smart as her world renown father. She compensates and therefore makes stupid decisions. Also her madness, paranoia, and entitlement doesnโ€™t help. This all together makes her make stupid decisions. Also She tells Ned about her bastard children before she even secures Robertโ€™s timely death or The city watch. She would have been executed if Ned wasnโ€™t an honorable man making his own stupider decision.
So Iโ€™m just not going to pay back the Iron Bank of Braavos, who we are in severe debt to, and are known to kill people who donโ€™t pay regardless of their political power.

Cersei: Also, Iโ€™m going to needlessly antagonize my sonโ€™s wife whoโ€™s family also controls the food supply for the kingdom.

Cersei: Iโ€™m so smart. Nobody is smarter than me.
Does this look like the thought of process of a genius to you?


I will say she is smart but not the smartest in the show, not by a long shot.
 

Doggo

Welcome to the House of Hope
โ€Ž
#53
Seriously.
Watch the first minute of this video.
Then try to remember the Euron Greyjoy from the series.
If you STILL wanna defend that pile of crap in any shape or form, I pray for your soul.
 
#54
Tywin won the war that mattered,
Going by this logic, I can just say Joffrey won the war. Since you're just ignoring context and declaring whoever was in charge of the winning side as the winner. You completely ignored everything I said about Tywin being in a hopeless situation at the end of Season 1/Book 1, a situation that he has no reason to put himself in. And Tywin only got out of that situation through stuff other characters did (Stannis/Rob's wife).

If you think Cersei is stupid for arming the Faith Miliant, then Tywin is even dumber for nearly causing the destruction of House Lanniser for absolutely no reason. I repeat, one letter to Robert telling him to release Tyrion would have avoided all of this. But Tywin decided to start a war and Jaime decided to start killing Ned's men in the streets. Killing people and fighting wars is one thing when you have no choice, but starting them for fun is just silly. Especially starting a war when you're completely outnumbered and have too many enemies.

Again, if Tywin is so smart, then what was his plan for dealing with Renly and Rob? What can he do without Stannis and his magical shadow baby along with Rob's wife saving the day?


he styled on the starks at the red wedding.
You mean he destroyed both House Lannister and House Frey's reputation forever by being part of something as sinful as breaking guest right when he had no reason to do that. An unnecessary short term gain with long term consequences.

Your quote about Cersei where it says "She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience." applies to the Red Wedding in all honestly. Everyone despises House Lannister and Frey and they will continue to despise them until the end of time.

And for what? The Lannister/Tyrell alliance outnumbered the Starks badly. There was no need for the Red Wedding at all. You're proving my point my bringing up the Red Wedding, you know that right? Why couldn't Tywin just kill the Starks on the battlefield like everyone else does? Breaking Guest Right is the biggest sin in Westeros.

She dumb. Why you ignoring the Iron bank situation?
Both Tywin and Cersei didn't pay back the crown's debts to the Iron Bank. This isn't a Cersei only thing.

Or her giving waters a fleet?
She gave her Master of Ships a fleet. Every Master of Ships has a fleet. Is the issue that the master of Ships betrayed her? Because if that's the issue, then how do you feel about Tywin promoting the guy who killed his grandson as Lord Protector of the Vale?

Or her thinking her handmaidens are plotting against her because her robe shrank? :suresure:
lmao cmon bro what is this :milaugh:

You're using Cersei being insecure about her weight as an argument?

She's a naive woman who thinks she's smarter than she really is:
That quote you posted about her having no patience and no judgement is rich coming from Jaime. The guy with such little patience and judgement that he lost his hand and his claim to Casterly Rock over having no patience and no judgement.

:milaugh:
 
#55
Seriously.
Watch the first minute of this video.
Then try to remember the Euron Greyjoy from the series.
If you STILL wanna defend that pile of crap in any shape or form, I pray for your soul.
Fuck that Jack Sparrow wannabe.
Post automatically merged:

Going by this logic, I can just say Joffrey won the war. Since you're just ignoring context and declaring whoever was in charge of the winning side as the winner. You completely ignored everything I said about Tywin being in a hopeless situation at the end of Season 1/Book 1, a situation that he has no reason to put himself in. And Tywin only got out of that situation through stuff other characters did (Stannis/Rob's wife).

If you think Cersei is stupid for arming the Faith Miliant, then Tywin is even dumber for nearly causing the destruction of House Lanniser for absolutely no reason. I repeat, one letter to Robert telling him to release Tyrion would have avoided all of this. But Tywin decided to start a war and Jaime decided to start killing Ned's men in the streets. Killing people and fighting wars is one thing when you have no choice, but starting them for fun is just silly. Especially starting a war when you're completely outnumbered and have too many enemies.

Again, if Tywin is so smart, then what was his plan for dealing with Renly and Rob? What can he do without Stannis and his magical shadow baby along with Rob's wife saving the day?




You mean he destroyed both House Lannister and House Frey's reputation forever by being part of something as sinful as breaking guest right when he had no reason to do that. An unnecessary short term gain with long term consequences.

Your quote about Cersei where it says "She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience." applies to the Red Wedding in all honestly. Everyone despises House Lannister and Frey and they will continue to despise them until the end of time.

And for what? The Lannister/Tyrell alliance outnumbered the Starks badly. There was no need for the Red Wedding at all. You're proving my point my bringing up the Red Wedding, you know that right? Why couldn't Tywin just kill the Starks on the battlefield like everyone else does? Breaking Guest Right is the biggest sin in Westeros.



Both Tywin and Cersei didn't pay back the crown's debts to the Iron Bank. This isn't a Cersei only thing.



She gave her Master of Ships a fleet. Every Master of Ships has a fleet. Is the issue that the master of Ships betrayed her? Because if that's the issue, then how do you feel about Tywin promoting the guy who killed his grandson as Lord Protector of the Vale?



lmao cmon bro what is this :milaugh:

You're using Cersei being insecure about her weight as an argument?



That quote you posted about her having no patience and no judgement is rich coming from Jaime. The guy with such little patience and judgement that he lost his hand and his claim to Casterly Rock over having no patience and no judgement.

:milaugh:
Littlefinger's role in killing Joffrey wasn't known nor was it easy to detect whereas Waters thing was thought to be a bad deal even by her incompetent ass council.


My quotes are only trying to paint her as this naive woman who while smart isnt the genius you think she is.


Never said Tywin was a genius, but he is smarter than her. Yes he made mistakes but he kept his family alive and helped his house prosper under his rule. Cersei played a huge role in imploding it.
 
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Doggo

Welcome to the House of Hope
โ€Ž
#56
You mean he destroyed both House Lannister and House Frey's reputation forever by being part of something as sinful as breaking guest right when he had no reason to do that. An unnecessary short term gain with long term consequences.
House Frey took the blame alone. There isn't a "public knowledge" that Tywin plotted the Red Wedding.
As far as people know, Walder Frey got mad because Robb Stark betrayed him, so he betrayed Robb back and decided to ally himself with the Crown.
Only a handful of people "know" that Tywin had anything to do with it. House Lannister reputation did not take a hit from that.
 
#57
My quotes are only trying to paint her as this naive woman who while smart isnt the genius you think she is.
I don't think she is a genius at all bro. I just think she's the second smartest member of House Lannister, that's all. I consider Tyrion to be smarter (at least in the books), and it's clear Littlefinger and Varys are playing a game of chess far above the rest of the cast.


House Frey took the blame alone. There isn't a "public knowledge" that Tywin plotted the Red Wedding.
As far as people know, Walder Frey got mad because Robb Stark betrayed him, so he betrayed Robb back and decided to ally himself with the Crown.
Only a handful of people "know" that Tywin had anything to do with it. House Lannister reputation did not take a hit from that.

You're underestimating people's intelligence. Bryden and Tyrion were instantly able to figure out that Tywin was involved with the Red Wedding. Pretty sure a bunch of other characters realize it as well, it's not exactly a hard deduction to make.

"Frey's work, not mine."

"Call it what you will. It stinks of Tywin Lannister."

Jaime could not deny that. "My father is dead as well."
โ€œSo Lord Walder slew him under his own roof, at his own table?โ€ Tyrion made a fist. โ€œWhat of Lady Catelyn?โ€

โ€œSlain as well, Iโ€™d say.A pair of wolfskins . Frey had intended to keep her captive, but perhaps something went awry.โ€

โ€œSo much for guest right.โ€

โ€œThe blood is on Walder Freyโ€™s hands, not mine.โ€

โ€œWalder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights heโ€™s suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection.โ€
 

Doggo

Welcome to the House of Hope
โ€Ž
#58
I don't think she is a genius at all bro. I just think she's the second smartest member of House Lannister, that's all. I consider Tyrion to be smarter (at least in the books), and it's clear Littlefinger and Varys are playing a game of chess far above the rest of the cast.





You're underestimating people's intelligence. Bryden and Tyrion were instantly able to figure out that Tywin was involved with the Red Wedding. Pretty sure a bunch of other characters realize it as well, it's not exactly a hard deduction to make.
A couple of people making a correct assumption is way WAAAAAAAAAAAAY different from "house Lannister reputation taking a dump".
 
#59
A couple of people making a correct assumption is way WAAAAAAAAAAAAY different from "house Lannister reputation taking a dump".
If people think that House Lannister played committed the biggest sin in Westeros history, then yes their reputation is taking a dump. You can't even give a single example of a character thinking the Lannisters had nothing to do with the Red Wedding.

Again, this isn't rocket science. Walder Frey is not a bold man. All of a sudden, House Lannisters enemies are dropping like flies in the Frey castle, then afterwards House Lannister is giving House Frey rewards and castles. How stupid do you think the people of Westeros are if you think they can't come to such a simple conclusion?

Find a single quote of someone thinking that the Lannisters had nothing to with the Red Wedding. You can't.

And that ignores my entire point, which was that Tywin had no good reason to do any of this in the first place. The war could have easily been won without the Red Wedding now that he had the Tyrells carrying him on their backs.
 
#60
I don't think she is a genius at all bro. I just think she's the second smartest member of House Lannister, that's all. I consider Tyrion to be smarter (at least in the books), and it's clear Littlefinger and Varys are playing a game of chess far above the rest of the cast.
Honestly I still don't see what makes her smarter than Tywin.
 
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