Best Character Development Round 1 Bracket 1

[Zara]

Honestly I still don't see what makes her smarter than Tywin.

Yeah no worries. We can agree to disagree, enough debating for one day.

 

[Doggo]

If people think that House Lannister played committed the biggest sin in Westeros history, then yes their reputation is taking a dump. You can't even give a single example of a character thinking the Lannisters had nothing to do with the Red Wedding.

Again, this isn't rocket science. Walder Frey is not a bold man. All of a sudden, House Lannisters enemies are dropping like flies in the Frey castle, then afterwards House Lannister is giving House Frey rewards. Anyone with two brain cells can do the math. How stupid do you think the people of Westeros are?

Find a single quote of someone thinking that the Lannisters had nothing to with the Red Wedding. You can't.

And that ignores my entire point, which was that Tywin had no good reason to do any of this in the first place. The war could have easily been won without the Red Wedding now that he had the Tyrells carrying him on their backs.

You have a little misconception.
They are not "lannister enemies".
They are enemies of the Crown.
And the King, for the public knowledge, is much a Baratheon as he's a Lannister. Common people in Westeros don't delve into these political matters much. Minor houses have others things to care about.
House Lannister is known for being ruthless, that's nothing new for them. Their have a theme song about how they completely obliterate a minor House that tried to rebel against them.
Again, House Lannister reputation suffers nothing from the Red Wedding.

 

[Zara]

You have a little misconception.
They are not "lannister enemies".
They are enemies of the Crown.
And the King, for the public knowledge, is much a Baratheon as he's a Lannister. Common people in Westeros don't delve into these political matters much. Minor houses have others things to care about.
House Lannister is known for being ruthless, that's nothing new for them. Their have a theme song about how they completely obliterate a minor House that tried to rebel against them.
Again, House Lannister reputation suffers nothing from the Red Wedding.

Every high lord/lady knows Joffrey is a bastard. What do you mean it's common knowledge that he's a Baratheon? Are you talking about the peasants and illiterate smallfolk? I wasn't referring to those people, they can't read or write so of course they know nothing. I'm talking about the lords and ladies of Westeros. Joffrey being a bastard is common knowledge among them and so is Tywin's role in the Red Wedding.

And House Lannister has never had a reputation for participating in breaking Guest Right bro. So to say this is nothing new for them isn't true. There's a big difference between destroying two rebel houses (what Tywin is famous for) and participating in a Guest Right plot.

And you're still ignoring the big elephant in the room. What did Tywin gain from the Red Wedding that he couldn't have gained on the battlefield with his new giant Lannister/Tyrell army? What was the point?

 

[Doggo]

Every high lord/lady knows Joffrey is a bastard. What do you mean it's common knowledge that he's a Baratheon? Are you talking about the peasants and illiterate smallfolk? I wasn't referring to those people, they can't read or write so of course they know nothing. I'm talking about the lords and ladies of Westeros. Joffrey being a bastard is common knowledge among them and so is Tywin's role in the Red Wedding.

And House Lannister has never had a reputation for participating in breaking Guest Right bro. So to say this is nothing new for them isn't true. There's a big difference between destroying two rebel houses (what Tywin is famous for) and participating in a Guest Right plot.

And you're still ignoring the big elephant in the room. What did Tywin gain from the Red Wedding that he couldn't have gained on the battlefield with his new giant Lannister/Tyrell army? What was the point?

They didn't know.
Remember that Ned got fucked because he discovered it by analyzing a bunch of registers and figuring out that Baratheon's hair color have the dominant genes. Then, he got fucked because he wanted to tell Robert, but decided to warn Cersei first.
And what you mean "what Tywin gained"?
Tywin saved TONS of resources. Wars are not like Onigashima or Marineford, that are resolved in less than a day.
It takes men power, it takes provisions, money, etc.
Robb's rebellion was a war a attrition.
Who knows how long this war would last.
There were still the Greyjoys, Daenerys assembling forces in the East, etc.
He gained QUITE A LOT.

 

[Zara]

They didn't know.
Remember that Ned got fucked because he discovered it by analyzing a bunch of registers and figuring out that Baratheon's hair color have the dominant genes. Then, he got fucked because he wanted to tell Robert, but decided to warn Cersei first.

You're talking about Book 1? I thought since we were discussing the Red Wedding we were discussing Book 3 at minimum.

Yes of course in Book 1, it's not public knowledge that Joffrey is a bastard. That changes at the start of Book 2 when Stannis sends everyone a raven saying "my brother got cucked T_T". As soon as that letter is sent, it's common knowledge among all the lords and ladies that Joffrey is a bastard. Just like it's common knowledge among the lords and ladies that Tywin was part of the Red Wedding.

And what you mean "what Tywin gained"?
Tywin saved TONS of resources. Wars are not like Onigashima or Marineford, that are resolved in less than a day.
It takes men power, it takes provisions, money, etc.
Robb's rebellion was a war a attrition.
Who knows how long this war would last.
There were still the Greyjoys, Daenerys assembling forces in the East, etc.
He gained QUITE A LOT.

So if Tywin cared about saving man power, provisions, money, and resources, then why did he start a war that he didn't need to start in the first place during Book 1?

You can't paint Mr. Starts Wars for No Good Reason as someone who cares about saving man power and resources.


Also as I said in my previous post, all those are short term gains with long term consequences. With the Tyrells carrying Tywin on his back, he doesn't need to worry about money, food, or man power. Tyrells have all of that and more. Tyrells got the largest army and the most food. What resources does Tywin need to worry about with the Tyrells at his side?

The Red Wedding was silly no matter what angle you try looking at it from. It ruined House Lannister and House Frey's reputation. I'll say it again, it had very short term gains with very long term consequences. If the author ever decides to continue the books, I promise you'll continue to see people in the books showing disgust at the Freys and Lannisters over the Red Wedding.

 

[Doggo]

You're talking about Book 1? I thought since we were discussing the Red Wedding we were discussing Book 3 at minimum.

Yes of course in Book 1, it's not public knowledge that Joffrey is a bastard. That changes at the start of season 2 when Stannis sends everyone a raven saying "my brother got cucked T_T". As soon as that letter is sent, it's common knowledge among all the lords and ladies that Joffrey is a bastard. Just like it's common knowledge among the lords and ladies that Tywin was part of the Red Wedding.




So if Tywin cared about saving man power, provisions, money, and resources, then why did he start a war that he didn't need to start in the first place during Book 1?

You can't paint Mr. Starts Wars for No Good Reason as someone who cares about saving man power and resources.


Also as I said in my previous post, all those are short term gains with long term consequences. With the Tyrells carrying Tywin on his back, he doesn't need to worry about money, food, or man power. Tyrells have all of that and more. Tyrells got the largest army and the most food. What resources does Tywin need to worry about with the Tyrells at his side?

The Red Wedding was silly no matter what angle you try looking at it from. It ruined House Lannister and House Frey's reputation. I'll say it again, it had very short term gains with very long term consequences. If the author ever decides to continue the books, I promise you'll continue to see people in the books showing disgust at the Freys and Lannisters over the Red Wedding.

Tywin started a war in Book 1?

 

[Zara]

Tywin started a war in Book 1?

Yes?

Lannister vs Tully/Stark started in Book 1/Season 1.

“Don’t trouble yourself, Father, I’ve acquired a few of my own.” He tried a swallow of the ale. It was brown and yeasty, so thick you could almost chew it. Very fine, in truth. A pity his father had hanged the innkeep. “How is your war going?”

His uncle answered. “Well enough, for the nonce. Ser Edmure had scattered small troops of men along his borders to stop our raiding, and your lord father and I were able to destroy most of them piecemeal before they could regroup.”

“Your brother has been covering himself with glory,” his father said. “He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds.”

“Your father and I have been marching on each in turn,” Ser Kevan said. “With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens . . . ”

 

[Doggo]

Yes?

Lannister vs Tully/Stark started in Book 1/Season 1.

Didn't it actually start because Catelyn took Tyrion hostage? (not considering the fact that Littlefinger actually was the one who plot the whole thing by manipulating Lisa into killing her husband, then sending a letter blaming the Lannisters, and the "dagger incident").

 

[Zara]

Didn't it actually start because Catelyn took Tyrion hostage? (not considering the fact that Littlefinger actually was the one who plot the whole thing by manipulating Lisa into killing her husband, then sending a letter blaming the Lannisters, and the "dagger incident").

Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage means that she kidnapped Tyrion, it doesn't mean she started a war. At best this is a huge diplomatic scandal but nothing that can't be solved with words. Tywin sending forces in the Riverlands to kill people and set the land on fire is clearly when the war starts, because that's the first act of actual warfare. Killing a bunch of innocent people and burning their homes to the ground isn't an appropriate response to one person being kidnapped lol. Especially when the king is your son in law and you can solve this with one message.

 

[Doggo]

Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage means that she kidnapped Tyrion, it doesn't mean she started a war. At best this is a huge diplomatic scandal but nothing that can't be solved with words. Tywin sending forces in the Riverlands to kill people and set the land on fire is clearly when the war starts, because that's the first act of actual warfare. Killing a bunch of innocent people and burning their towns to the ground isn't an appropriate response to one person being kidnapped lol. Especially when the king is your son in law and you can solve this with one message.

In westeros, it kinda is a proper response.
Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna made a bunch of people ride to King's Landing to kill Rhaegar.

 

[Zara]

In westeros, it kinda is a proper response.
Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna made a bunch of people ride to King's Landing to kill Rhaegar.

Brandon went to King's Landing wanting to kill Rhaegar only, he didn't start randomly burning houses in King's Landing and murdering innocent people in the city. What Brandon did and what Tywin did are very different.

Also that's not an appropriate response at all. Hoster Tully called Brandon a fool when he said he's riding out to King's Landing and Brandon's father didn't declare war when he heard his daughter was kidnapped. The appropriate thing to do is to speak with the King and let the King dispense justice. Lords aren't supposed to just take matters into their own hands. It's hypocritical of Tywin because Tywin actually punishes lords in his land that solve their problems on their own instead of bringing the problems to House Lannister to solve.

Anyways you want to know what the ironic part is? When Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, Ned/Cersei/Robert were all mad at Catelyn. There was a very high chance that Tyrion was going to be freed and Catelyn was going to be punished if Jaime/Tywin waited a bit. But instead both Jaime and Tywin decided that slaughtering innocent people was the solution to Tyrion's kidnapping.

House Lannister started the war bro. The first blood was spilled by Jaime and Tywin. If Tywin told Robert to free Tyrion and punish Catelyn, that's what would have happened. Even Ned wasn't on his wife's side when he heard she kidnapped Tyrion. There was no need for Jaime or Tywin to do what they did. The only reason people stopped caring about what Catelyn did is because what Jaime and Tywin did was way worse and it escalated things into all out war.

Anyways, this is gonna be my last reply about this.

 

[Adam 🍎]

Cersei isnt dumb but she is far from smart like she thinks she is. Tywin perfectly summed up what is wrong about her.

She first fucked up because she couldnt keep it up in her pants during Winterfel trip. Her and Jamies actions led to the assassination of Bran which resulted in Tully/Stark and Lannister conflict.

Her 2nd problem was Ned Stark. Removing Ned Stark is one thing, but killing him? Absolute dumb. She lost the control over Joffrey because her lack of love for him resulted in him growing up like a turd. On top of that she lost Arya and treated Sansa like shit. If it wasnt for Cait Stark she would lost Jamie or maybe even the war.

During invasion from Stannis she was literally useless. Even keeping secreta from Tyrion - her hand of the king.

During Trial by Combat she didnt instruct Mountain not to kill Oberyin which is DUMB because her DAUGHTER is at Dorne court. Killing Oberyn would litetally call for revenge and put her daughter in mortal danger - which happened

After the murder of Tywin we can trully see just how dumb she is. Joffrey was a shit king and created an even shittier Kingdom. And her briliant idea to combat Martell's influence is to arm the people that literally hate them. What did she think will happen?

So bcs she was dumb she lost Joffrey, Mycela and only the young left. She cant possibly do anything dumb to make her son kill himself - like killing his wife to be he actually likes.

Oh wait she did just that. Not only did she kill her own family, her own best generals and statesmen, she also killed Martell family - literally her own allies that supply her food and troops. Her youngest kill himself in the process

Fast forward, she ignored white walker threat and doesnt give a flying shit about common threat. She allies with fucking EURON, dude that literally did patricide and betrayed EVERYONE.

Cersei was a failure and she degraded even more as the story went on

 

[Fujishiro]

Cersei isnt dumb but she is far from smart like she thinks she is. Tywin perfectly summed up what is wrong about her.

She first fucked up because she couldnt keep it up in her pants during Winterfel trip. Her and Jamies actions led to the assassination of Bran which resulted in Tully/Stark and Lannister conflict.

Her 2nd problem was Ned Stark. Removing Ned Stark is one thing, but killing him? Absolute dumb. She lost the control over Joffrey because her lack of love for him resulted in him growing up like a turd. On top of that she lost Arya and treated Sansa like shit. If it wasnt for Cait Stark she would lost Jamie or maybe even the war.

During invasion from Stannis she was literally useless. Even keeping secreta from Tyrion - her hand of the king.

During Trial by Combat she didnt instruct Mountain not to kill Oberyin which is DUMB because her DAUGHTER is at Dorne court. Killing Oberyn would litetally call for revenge and put her daughter in mortal danger - which happened

After the murder of Tywin we can trully see just how dumb she is. Joffrey was a shit king and created an even shittier Kingdom. And her briliant idea to combat Martell's influence is to arm the people that literally hate them. What did she think will happen?

So bcs she was dumb she lost Joffrey, Mycela and only the young left. She cant possibly do anything dumb to make her son kill himself - like killing his wife to be he actually likes.

Oh wait she did just that. Not only did she kill her own family, her own best generals and statesmen, she also killed Martell family - literally her own allies that supply her food and troops. Her youngest kill himself in the process

Fast forward, she ignored white walker threat and doesnt give a flying shit about common threat. She allies with fucking EURON, dude that literally did patricide and betrayed EVERYONE.

Cersei was a failure and she degraded even more as the story went on

Agree on all points except for her not loving Joffrey.

 

[Rhea]

The worst Lannister.

It’s beyond awesome

Cersei>Tyrion>Tywin>>>Jamie.

Jaime>Tyrion>= Tywin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lancel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cersei.

Tyrion > Tywin > Jaime >>>> Cersei

This post validates the fact that Cersei is the GOAT.

Cersei is so damn dumb Its unbelievable. You finished the show and still say that lol.

Cersei is the farthest thing away from dumb.

Nah, she dumb.

Cersei is very smart.

Nah she dumb.

Cersei isnt dumb but she is far from smart like she thinks she is.

 

[Seth]

Stark especially MCU version loses to fucking Endeavor because he stopped beating up his wife and kids.

This is why I should fucking reconsider participating in these like 3 to 10 times before making the decision.

 

[Adam 🍎]

Stark especially MCU version loses to fucking Endeavor because he stopped beating up his wife and kids.

This is why I should fucking reconsider participating in these like 3 to 10 times before making the decision.

Either you dont see Endeavors growth or you dont wanna see it.

 

[Seth]

Either you dont see Endeavors growth or you dont wanna see it.

I saw it. But comparing it to Stark's growth over all films is beyond fucking laughable.

Endeavor's development is simple from abuser to not abuser anymore. All his development is about is stopping to harm his family and try to connect with them more. Cliche as fuck.

 

[Kagu Nyan]

Zuko and Vegeta in the same bracket. I’m going for Zuko ;-; but I like Vegeta too.

 

[Adam 🍎]

I saw it. But comparing it to Stark's growth over all films is beyond fucking laughable.

Endeavor's development is simple from abuser to not abuser anymore. All his development is about is stopping to harm his family and try to connect with them more. Cliche as fuck.

Oh please. Tony Stark was still egoistical and arrogant cuck whos arrogance and ego almost destroyed the world because of Ultron

He said he is stopping weapons production only to create an army of Iron Soldiers and Ultron. Likewise his Arc reactor could solve energy problem of the world but he never wanted to give it bcs it would mean other nations making Iron Men.

During Infinity war his ego was so big he persuaded Dr. Strabge to go and fight thanos, just 2 of them.

 

[Seth]

Oh please. Tony Stark was still egoistical and arrogant cuck whos arrogance and ego almost destroyed the world because of Ultron

He said he is stopping weapons production only to create an army of Iron Soldiers and Ultron. Likewise his Arc reactor could solve energy problem of the world but he never wanted to give it bcs it would mean other nations making Iron Men.

During Infinity war his ego was so big he persuaded Dr. Strabge to go and fight thanos, just 2 of them.

You just pointed out the flaws that were still present despite his development. His development is bigger than anyone's in MCU. You wanted him to completely drop his traits and become a soft-ass bitch?

Thanos sit in his head for fucking years, you can't blame him for losing sanity once the dude shows up to destroy everything.

Still don't understand how Endeavor from abuser to loving daddy is bigger than any of this but okay. You do you.