Character Discussion Can Oda write Zoro becoming WSS without winning the fight?

[Celestial D. Dragon]

No I mean Mihawk has better skill techniques and style, But the swordsman he is fighting is massively faster than him and massively stronger than him and he simply gets SPEED BLITZED AND ONE SHOT

is that possible? For Mihawk to lose a sword fight against another swordsman simply because they have better stats than him?

Even thought that would never happen, you have to remember that strength without proper application is wasted energy, and speed without accuracy is wasted motion.

So even if by some miracle Mihawk came across a Swordsman with superior stats, he's still not losing because his skill would allow for him to avoid the much sloppier opponents movements, and even though that opponent is physically stronger, his non wasted energy makes for much more powerful attacks.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

What makes someone win in OP is the narrative / plot. Zoro must win by narrative, not due to detailed stats, or which stat he is stronger than Mihawk in. Thus by plot, Zoro will be both a stronger overall than Mihawk (shown by Zoro winning the fight) and also the stronger swordsman (shown by Zoro having greater technique that wins the fight). Thats what i think, if you wanna discuss about Zoro vs Mihawk related to WSS.

Well then can’t the plot/narrative just as easily say “Zoro has lost the fight but because of XYZ skill, he is now WSS”… Right? Zoro’s goal is WSS… The only thing that MUST happen is Zoro becoming WSS… Can’t Oda just decide that Zoro losing the fight doesn’t matter and that becoming WSS is simply random nonsense he comes up with at the end

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2023

So, yeah, he can become WSS without fighting Mihawk.

@Doggo
The problem with your analogy is that there is no such thing as Second strongest swordsman… zippo only gets the title because he has been world recognized as the runner up… There are mechanisms in the ippo universe to decide that Ippo is the second strongest and so he becomes the champion by default

There is no such thing in OP. If Zoro loses that’s that… There is nothing in the story to justify him being the closest to mihawk… nothing… All that matters is the win

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2023

Even thought that would never happen, you have to remember that strength without proper application is wasted energy, and speed without accuracy is wasted motion.

So even if by some miracle Mihawk came across a Swordsman with superior stats, he's still not losing because his skill would allow for him to avoid the much sloppier opponents movements, and even though that opponent is physically stronger, his non wasted energy makes for much more powerful attacks.

@Celestial D. Dragon
Is this indefinite? Can mihawk do this for people who are indefinitely faster and stronger than him?

what’s the gap?

can mihawk do this if they are 10x faster and stronger? 50x? 100x? 1000x?

you might think I’m exaggerating here but if you were for example to take the argument that Mihawk is Vista level, then any yonko level swordsman can in fact be OVER 1000x stronger than mihawk because the power gap between commanders and yonko is monolithic.

Do you think Mihawk’s skill can overcome infinite power gap differences? Where does it stop?


Also on your idea that someone can be massively faster than Mihawk and just MISS their attack because they are inaccurate or something, okay, what if the don’t miss? What then?

 

[matt245]

Yes. They are going to cut some melons who are standing completely still and whoever cuts it into more pieces faster wins

 

[uyuu]

Well then can’t the plot/narrative just as easily say “Zoro has lost the fight but because of XYZ skill, he is now WSS”… Right? Zoro’s goal is WSS… The only thing that MUST happen is Zoro becoming WSS… Can’t Oda just decide that Zoro losing the fight doesn’t matter and that becoming WSS is simply random nonsense he comes up with at the end

I dont think so since we're talking about a shonen manga here, and Zoro as one of the protags must win against his final opponent.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Well then can’t the plot/narrative just as easily say “Zoro has lost the fight but because of XYZ skill, he is now WSS”… Right? Zoro’s goal is WSS… The only thing that MUST happen is Zoro becoming WSS… Can’t Oda just decide that Zoro losing the fight doesn’t matter and that becoming WSS is simply random nonsense he comes up with at the end

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2023

@Doggo
The problem with your analogy is that there is no such thing as Second strongest swordsman… zippo only gets the title because he has been world recognized as the runner up… There are mechanisms in the ippo universe to decide that Ippo is the second strongest and so he becomes the champion by default

There is no such thing in OP. If Zoro loses that’s that… There is nothing in the story to justify him being the closest to mihawk… nothing… All that matters is the win

Post automatically merged: Jan 20, 2023

@Celestial D. Dragon
Is this indefinite? Can mihawk do this for people who are indefinitely faster and stronger than him?

what’s the gap?

can mihawk do this if they are 10x faster and stronger? 50x? 100x? 1000x?

you might think I’m exaggerating here but if you were for example to take the argument that Mihawk is Vista level, then any yonko level swordsman can in fact be OVER 1000x stronger than mihawk because the power gap between commanders and yonko is monolithic.

Do you think Mihawk’s skill can overcome infinite power gap differences? Where does it stop?


Also on your idea that someone can be massively faster than Mihawk and just MISS their attack because they are inaccurate or something, okay, what if the don’t miss? What then?

It's not happening, because it has to fall into the realm of believability, and rules set within the manga.

Mihawk already exists with Top Tier physical stats. He's the benchmark. You can't just say "what if Mihawk was X amount weaker", because in that instance, the benchmark for WSS gets lowered dramatically.

You have to use Shonen logic here, and that dictates that the sharper and more refined a Swordsmans skills become, the stronger and/or faster they become. There is no instance in the manga of a highly skilled Swordsman lagging in the physical stats department. Their skill is always relatively proportionate to their physical Stats.

Now if there was a character who was highly regarded as a skilled Swordsman, but severely lacked speed and strength, then there would be an argument to be made, but such a character doesn't exist.

 

[The White Crane]

According to ZKKboys who run crying after ZKK failure:

- Mihawk is a swordsman
- Shanks is a swordsman
- Mihawk is more skilled as a swordsman since Brannew said it.

Then how Mihawk failed to defeat Shanks despite having an edge in skill department?

Thats like 1 DF user can use awakening the other DF user can't use awakening but somehow awakening user can't beat the other, how?

If the non-awakening DF user has other techniques or greater Haki that would make sense.

Either:
- Shanks has other fighting styles that can neutralize Mihawk's skill advantage and Mihawk can't beat him.

- Or Shanks has greater Haki so he can neutralize Mihawk's skill advantage and Mihawk can't beat him.

- Or Mihawk become WGS without needing to defeat his swordsman rival, if that makes sense to you then Zolo doesn't need to defeat Mihawk as well.


Good thing I mentioned this before ZKKboys were in delusion that they believe it doesn't say ''settle''.



Its ''Strongest only in swordsmanship'', too bad ZKKboys keep spamming this 'strongest' shit but it doesn't make a different title, its only for swordsmanship, you don't become stronger in every area only in sword skill area you can become strongest.

The title is also called ''greatest swordsman'' many times for a reason, ''Dai Kengou'' not saikyo shit.

Called 'greatest' , 'dai kengou' many times:

Which is why VIZ even translate it as Greatest in here to make it consistent and not let users get confused because the title was called Greatest before but it says Saikyo here still VIZ called it Greatest in here because thats more accurate translation because you don't say strongest marksman in English you say greatest marksman in English. Its all same.

@nik87 Mihawk done broke this man.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Swordsmans skills become, the stronger and/or faster they become. There is no instance in the manga of a highly skilled Swordsman lagging in the physical stats department.

Tashigi. And Kuina. The manga makes it very clear that for Kuina and Tashigi, their physical stats will always lag behind whatever skill they have

Oda introduced the fact that physical stats and skills are separate things from the very beginning with the Kuina business

you’re gonna say “but Zoro said being a girl doesn’t matter yada yada yada” well Zoro was wrong. The actual manga has never supported this claim. Tashigi is in fact a weakling specifically because she’s a woman.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

Tashigi. And Kuina. The manga makes it very clear that for Kuina and Tashigi, their physical stats will always lag behind whatever skill they have

Oda introduced the fact that physical stats and skills are separate things from the very beginning with the Kuina business

you’re gonna say “but Zoro said being a girl doesn’t matter yada yada yada” well Zoro was wrong. The actual manga has never supported this claim. Tashigi is in fact a weakling specifically because she’s a woman.

Kuina didn't get to live long enough to see whether or not she would have been a great Swordsman, but even as a child, she was beating full grown adults, who should have been leaps and bounds stronger and faster than her, but they weren't. And if they were, then wouldn't that mean she beat these people who were stronger and faster... Because she was more skilled? Kind of a conundrum we got here don't we?

And not for nothing, but Kuinas mentality that women can't become strong swordsmen came from her father. But she was proving that wrong at 11 years old.

I have not seen anywhere it be stated that Tashigi is a highly skilled Swordsman. She's average at best, which again, reflects her physical stats.

 

[Cozy Sofa]

There is no instance in the manga of a highly skilled Swordsman lagging in the physical stats department. Their skill is always relatively proportionate to their physical Stats.

Now if there was a character who was highly regarded as a skilled Swordsman, but severely lacked speed and strength, then there would be an argument to be made, but such a character doesn't exist.

I'd argue Fujitora is that character. Or even Big Mom - not that she is a swordsman - but both seem lacking in speed and ability to dodge.

Obviously have great DF, superb sword skills, great haki and monstrous strength but in key aspects like speed and maneuverability they seem lacking.

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

Kuina didn't get to live long enough to see whether or not she would have been a great Swordsman, but even as a child, she was beating full grown adults, who should have been leaps and bounds stronger and faster than her, but they weren't. And if they were, then wouldn't that mean she beat these people who were stronger and faster... Because she was more skilled? Kind of a conundrum we got here don't we?

How do you know those adults were physically weaker than her? Remember that Zoro was superhuman as a kid… Kuina probably was too

the fact that Kuina was scared that her physical body would eventually let her down once people of stronger physical bodies finally faced her means that it very much matters what your stats are

And I should remind you that we are 1000 chapter into the story and Oda has NOT YET refuted anything Kuina said

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

How do you know those adults were physically weaker than her? Remember that Zoro was superhuman as a kid… Kuina probably was too

the fact that Kuina was scared that her physical body would eventually let her down once people of stronger physical bodies finally faced her means that it very much matters what your stats are

And I should remind you that we are 1000 chapter into the story and Oda has NOT YET refuted anything Kuina said

I said Kuina was stronger than them, in response to you saying Kuina was an example of a skilled Swordsman with weak physical stats. She can't have weak physical stats, if at 11 years old, she's beating adults. And the older she got, she would have become much stronger. Her self doubt came at the hands of her father.

I said if she didn't have strong physical stats, then that means she was beating people who were stronger and faster with just skill. That answers your question you've been asking.

 

[Blazing Lion]

This is for the people who think WSS is about skill and not strength

If Skill is what makes WSS then winning the fight against WSS isn’t important right?

That means it’s possible for Oda to write Zoro losing his final fight as long as he is still given the title of WSS simply because he has MORE SKILL…right?

They are just mad copers because they base everything on general shonen logic where the MC becomes so powerful that he can solo the verse EoS. All SHPs except Jinbe have a dream/an ambition, some are vague (Nami, Usopp, Chopper, Jinbe) and some not so much. The clearer ones have a goal which can be seen and it will be definite when they have achieved it e.g. Luffy becomes PK when he reaches Laugh Tale and finds One Piece (of course there is also the secondary hidden dream). Robin learns the true history when she reaches Laugh Tale and finds One Piece. Franky achieves his when Sunny reaches Laugh Tale. Sanji achieves his when he finds All Blue (whatever that is however it happens). Jinbe probably achieves his when Fishman Island is raised to the surface (ending racism is too vague).

But when it comes to Zoro achieving his of becoming WSS ever by beating Mihawk everybody has a problem with it. And the one and only reason for it is that Zoro's dream is a power related dream and the goal is defeating a character. Most fans can't digest that when Zoro will become WSS ever, he will also be stronger than Roger (the PK), who till now is the strongest character in the series. Zoro's dream is one the clear, definite dreams which can be shown exactly when it was achieved. I am not even going into all the parallels and number of places where they have been shown/stated as equals. Luffy's dream is not of acquiring power though he needs to be strong to achieve it and being the shonen MC there is every chance that he will be one of the strongest EoS. Zoro's dream though is specifically a dream of acquiring/becoming the strongest ever in the best combat discipline.

 

[nik87]

They are just mad copers because they base everything on general shonen logic where the MC becomes so powerful that he can solo the verse EoS. All SHPs except Jinbe have a dream/an ambition, some are vague (Nami, Usopp, Chopper, Jinbe) and some not so much. The clearer ones have a goal which can be seen and it will be definite when they have achieved it e.g. Luffy becomes PK when he reaches Laugh Tale and finds One Piece (of course there is also the secondary hidden dream). Robin learns the true history when she reaches Laugh Tale and finds One Piece. Franky achieves his when Sunny reaches Laugh Tale. Sanji achieves his when he finds All Blue (whatever that is however it happens). Jinbe probably achieves his when Fishman Island is raised to the surface (ending racism is too vague).

But when it comes to Zoro achieving his of becoming WSS ever by beating Mihawk everybody has a problem with it. And the one and only reason for it is that Zoro's dream is a power related dream and the goal is defeating a character. Most fans can't digest that when Zoro will become WSS ever, he will also be stronger than Roger (the PK), who till now is the strongest character in the series. Zoro's dream is one the clear, definite dreams which can be shown exactly when it was achieved. I am not even going into all the parallels and number of places where they have been shown/stated as equals. Luffy's dream is not of acquiring power though he needs to be strong to achieve it and being the shonen MC there is every chance that he will be one of the strongest EoS. Zoro's dream though is specifically a dream of acquiring/becoming the strongest ever in the best combat discipline.

Zori's strength is everyone's problem and for a good reason. They wouldnt complain as much if they didnt feel the heat. Good post.
Other than Roger being the strongest character so far while Rocks, Kaido and WB were above him, at least.

 

[Blazing Lion]

Zori's strength is everyone's problem and for a good reason. They wouldnt complain as much if they didnt feel the heat. Good post.
Other than Roger being the strongest character so far while Rocks, Kaido and WB were above him, at least.

Why you rank Rocks, Kaido and WB above Roger? Isn't Roger the benchmark? WB was compared to him. Kaido said Roger was at the top due to haki. Ranking Rocks above Roger is pure speculation imo.

 

[nik87]

Why you rank Rocks, Kaido and WB above Roger? Isn't Roger the benchmark? WB was compared to him. Kaido said Roger was at the top due to haki. Ranking Rocks above Roger is pure speculation imo.

Roger has never been the benchmark, he is only the most famous character, not the strongest.
WB was World's Strongest Man in Roger's era. Not Roger himself.
Kaido was the World's Strongest Creature in Roger's era. Not Roger himself or WB.
Rocks is speculation indeed but considering that Pirates and Navy had to join hands to crush him and he was WB's and Kaido's captain...

And after Kaido and Whitebeard, it seems we are heading towards the return of the true start of Rocks pirates, a clone of Rocks himself.
Kaido only used Roger as example that Haki alone is what is required to conquer the seas in relation to Luffy showing off a DF...
He cant use anyone else because nobody else conquered the seas and certainly not with haki alone. WB has DF, Kaido has DF, he had to use Roger as an example. WSC and WB are factually above Roger regardless.

 

[Blazing Lion]

Roger has never been the benchmark, he is only the most famous character, not the strongest.
WB was World's Strongest Man in Roger's era. Not Roger himself.
Kaido was the World's Strongest Creature in Roger's era. Not Roger himself or WB.
Rocks is speculation indeed but considering that Pirates and Navy had to join hands to crush him and he was WB's and Kaido's captain...

And after Kaido and Whitebeard, it seems we are heading towards the return of the true start of Rocks pirates, a clone of Rocks himself.
Kaido only used Roger as example that Haki alone is what is required to conquer the seas in relation to Luffy showing off a DF...
He cant use anyone else because nobody else conquered the seas and certainly not with haki alone. WB has DF, Kaido has DF, he had to use Roger as an example. WSC and WB are factually above Roger regardless.

As far as we know Kaido was called the WSC during time of Oldbeard (Ace Novel), before that he was referred to as the embodiment of might by that old lady but nothing like WSC. As for WB being called the WSM during Roger's era doesn't the VC also clarify it that he was called so because of his power to destroy the world via his devil fruit. And even if WB was the WSM he did not defeat Roger (sick) when they last fought. And neither WB nor Kaido's titles are absolute like Mihawk's where he is called the WSS in name and reality.

As for WB, Kaido, BM, Shiki following Rocks, I would chalk it off to a one off event and we already have examples of characters joining captains even when they are stronger or equal to than their captains. Shiryu when he joined BB, Aokiji when he joined BB, Zoro when he joined Luffy, Mihawk and Crocodile under Buggy, probably even Ray when he joined Roger.

 

[LANJI CUCKSMOKE]

all title holders in the story in some sense have been written like that

but for one of the main characters with this much build up to a duel to prove himself
I think its impossible.

 

[BattalGazi]

He already wrote to all Zoro fanboy imaginations.

 

[nik87]

As far as we know Kaido was called the WSC during time of Oldbeard (Ace Novel), before that he was referred to as the embodiment of might by that old lady but nothing like WSC. As for WB being called the WSM during Roger's era doesn't the VC also clarify it that he was called so because of his power to destroy the world via his devil fruit. And even if WB was the WSM he did not defeat Roger (sick) when they last fought. And neither WB nor Kaido's titles are absolute like Mihawk's where he is called the WSS in name and reality.

Nah, we saw King telling him to remain the strongest 30+ years ago which is prime of WB and Roger.
His piracy achievements were simply nowhere close to WB's and Roger's who made headlines.
The embodiment of might is implying the same thing.
Databook clarifies that while WB was the strongest pirate of that era, he was never stronger than Kaido individually.
Roger didnt defeat WB either and WB was WSM. I dont doubt any of the 3 titles otherwise you have to doubt all 3.

 

[Blazing Lion]

Nah, we saw King telling him to remain the strongest 30+ years ago which is prime of WB and Roger.
His piracy achievements were simply nowhere close to WB's and Roger's who made headlines.
The embodiment of might is implying the same thing.
Databook clarifies that while WB was the strongest pirate of that era, he was never stronger than Kaido individually.
Roger didnt defeat WB either and WB was WSM. I dont doubt any of the 3 titles otherwise you have to doubt all 3.

Forgot about the King comment but then again it is hard for me to give it much weight considering how big of a fanboy King was, he fucking modeled his attacks after Kaido. I don't think I said that Roger was stronger than WB (prime), I just said that he is the benchmark, canonically they were shown to only have a draw so I will go with that Roger = WB. Of course I would give the edge to Roger in a 10-20 day fight over WB just because of shonen MC inspiration/goal shit. As for Kaido I still have some doubts over him being stronger than WB (prime) and Roger. I would put him equal to Roger and WB.

This creates a problem though if Kaido is the WSC >= WB >= Roger as you say (I think that is what you meant) then shouldn't Oden be put even above all these guys since when you say Kaido was the WSC during Roger and WB era and Oden would have defeated Kaido if not for the distraction. Shouldn't the scale then be Oden > WSC >= WB >= Roger. Do you rank Kaido's top five as all equal?