Current Events Chapter 1009 Wisdom King Prediction/Analysis
In this thread I will discuss how this recent chapter of OP has all but confirmed that Oda is intentionally integrating Buddhist Wisdom King references into the main players of the arc, i.e. , Luffy, Zoro, and Kaido.
Speculation on this topic began in early September 2020 when Chapter 990 was released, however the seeds were sown as early as Chapter 921 when Kiku described Kaido's portrayal among the people in Wano to Luffy's group as a "Wisdom King who protects over Wano"
In Chapter 990 when Hyou witnesses Luffy in G4 Boundman he remarks to himself that Luffy looks just like a "Guardian Deity" in the English VIZ translation. The Japanese raws give a more specific perspective than this, clarifying that its not just any guardian deity but in fact the Wisdom King Acala (不動明王, Fudō Myō-ō, Bùdòng Míngwáng) a.k.a “The Immovable One”
The Fudo Myo is highly regarded among the Yakuza of Japan and its form bears an uncanny resemblance to Prime Hyou which makes him the perfect character to pass on the torch to Luffy who has the strength Hyou lacks to take the mantle as the ultimate "Protector" which is Acala's signature trait.
So, with Luffy's reference covered let's move on to Kaido. In Chapter 1009 Kaido uses the attack "Three Worlds - Pulled to Hell" (Trailokyavijaya Vidya-raja, the Conqueror of the Three Worlds) on Luffy, with Trailokyavijaya referring to the Wisdom King Gozanze Myo.
Back in September of last year I was discussing who the other possible Wisdom King candidates could be on Discord and Twitter DM's with twitter user @Portent199 . Funnily enough, in those discussions Kaido was considered as a possible candidate for Gozanze Myo having taken it from Oden, who has the most connections with that particular Wisdom King (much like Hyou and Luffy's situation).
The Conqueror of the Three Planes was one who held victory over the celestial, earthly and infernal realms, each representing greed, hatred and ignorance or the past, present and future. He is also supposed to be the protector of humans, to defend their borders from obstacles of enlightenment/freedom. It’s possible Oden was this deity, the destined protector and liberator of the people of Wano. Oden was a pirate, he traveled the world, and he was both a daimyo and a known criminal. His wife Toki traveled from the past, into the present and sent people into the future. Oden protected Wano’s people from the threat of Kaido and Orochi, trying his best to maintain their way of life while he suffered in their wake. After Oden died it’s possible Kaido is now the holder of this position, but is obviously not worthy and will have it taken when he is killed. Kaido's reputation as the strongest land, sea, and air also fits with this "three plane conqueror" theme.
A month prior to Chapter 990, in August, I made a twitter thread that I'll link here concerning this particular theme of Wano (deities/gods acting as saviors to Wano) predicting that Zoro will have a very important role of his own, following in the steps of Ryuma. I believe this trend is important as its basically the "inherited will" concept just rehashed with this Buddhist Wisdom King twist (Hyou handing off to Luffy, Ryuma handing off to Zoro) but the odd man out is of course Kaido being the "false god" as he is nothing like a protector and more like a tyrant.
Deity Theme Thread
Now, considering that I was already close to the mark in predicting which Wisdom King Kaido would be assigned to I would like to propose my reasoning and analysis for why Zoro is meant to represent the fifth Wisdom King: Vajrayakṣa (金剛夜叉明王, Kongōyasha Myō-ō; Jīngāng Yèchā Míngwáng) a.k.a "The Devourer of Demons" This prediction was initially made around the same time the Kaido prediction was done, but since then I have done more research and added some extra parts.
Kongō-Yasha is known as the protector of the northern realm (Ringo, a Shimotsuki territory) and devourer of demons. The ‘Kongō’ part of Kongō-Yasha literally means diamond like toughness, which makes sense since it’s the guardian deity with the highest ability to endure damage/hardship. Going along with this, we know from Kawamatsu in Chapter 953 that the warriors of the Shimotsuki clan were famed for their hardiness, which CLEARLY Zoro can relate to, if this current chapter is any more proof.
Kongō-Yasha also wields a weapon gifted by Indra, and this weapon is said to be able to harness the wrath of Asura and use it to destroy other wrathful deities. Speaking of Asura, the physical appearance of Kongō-Yasha has three heads and six arms, wielding a weapon in each hand, sound familiar? This aspect is unique to only Kongō-Yasha as the other wisdom kings have multiple heads and arms, but not that exact distribution.
He also is known to be the wisdom king that commands the most respect out of the five, a trait Zoro often displays as the vice captain of the crew with respect being paramount in his character. The reason Kongō-Yasha has the ephitet "Devoruer of Demons" is because he was known to be called upon by his followers to subdue demons or evil spirits that were plauging them. I believe the WSJ cover that included Zoro, Luffy, and Kaido with the caption "Two pirates kill the evil spirits!" is heavy foreshadowing that Kaido will be slayed through the efforts of this tag team therefore it can be said that Zoro's role in Wano is to strike down these "demons".
Just like the Fudo Myo (Hyou and G4 Luffy) is a symbol that the Yakuza of Japan look up to, Kongō-Yasha Myō-o was a symbol the Samurai of Japan looked up to. Zoro being a swordsman character with a bushido spirit and Japanese nationality is the quintessential samurai main character in OP.
To preface this part breakdown I must first let you know that all Wisdom Kings are actually manifestations of other, more important figures in the Buddhist religion. This is particularly important in Kongōyasha's case, as it opens the doors to many more connections to Zoro.
Kongōyasha is the Wrathful manifestation of Buddha Amoghasiddhi, who is associated with the color green, is depicted with swords, is symbolized by the moon (like the clans of wano), and is the protector over the northern realm (ringo). The last two associations are a perfect fit for the Shimotsuki clan that many have theorized may be Zoro's actual heritage, which I'm sure you are well versed in. Some other tidbits that aren't quite as strong include Amoghasiddhi being the Buddha that rules over the element of wind/air and Zoro with his flying slashes and heavy Tiger personification fits this well, along with the old Chinese proverb "Dragons bring the clouds, Tigers call forth the wind.”
Before I wrap this up another cool Buddhist detail this chap linking Kaido and Zoro is the glaring similarity in Zoro's "three thousand worlds" secret santoryu technique and the new move Kaido used this chapter “conqueror of the three planes” both charging up by spinning their weapon rapidly before delivering a massive strike. Zoro's attack is a direct reference to the Buddhist ideal that within the mind exist three thousands realms and each realm possesses the potential for wisdom and understanding, and we already went over Kaido's attack being a direct name reference to one of the five Wisdom Kings.
You may be wondering who the other two wisdom king references are if Zoro, Luffy, and Kaido have three locked up. Well, the truth is there are possible candidates for the other two wisdom kings, but they are way more of a stretch than the three I have talked about, so I don't feel like its worth it to delve into something with pretty weak foundation. But if I had to say, the other two are likely Law and Big Mom.
Finally, as for how I think Zoro will get his moment that links him with his Wisdom King, whenever he uses Asura on the roof he will either have a new name for the overall form and it will be Kongō-Yasha, or he keeps the name Asura but one of his new techniques while in the form will be named after the Wisdom King, like how it played out with Kaido. Needless to say I'm extremely excited for that time to come :)
@Den_Den_Mushi @Garp the Fist @ShishioIsBack @Cinera @Light D Lamperouge @Nidai_Kitetsu @Buggy D Clown @BossYimz @Rivaille @Cyrus the Cactus @stormylife @KiriNigiri @Reddot4 @Aknolagon @T.D.A @nik87 @HA001 @Fenaker @Admiral Lee Hung @playa4321 @Gol D. Roger @Haoshoku @Natalija @Reborn @Geo @LolonoisZolo @ShadyOjiro @Dragomir @Grumpy Zoro @Monet @Sade @Rukusho @ZoroSlaysDragonTuna @stairs-kun @Oblivion @yj @solis @Seth @Zowo @style @Blother @Camie @MarimoHeado @Marimo_420 @Orojackson Refugee @Zenos7 @Don DaSlayer @Guymieux @Dark Hound @HAJIKATA @Queen @LadyVados @bennbeckman @Ice devil slayer @Jew D. Boy @Gon’s Missing Arm @Mr. Bushido @Mikail @Thabeast @MasterD @Enma @Finalbeta @Sword God Ryuma @Sunita @RyumaZoro @Himura @yorosenpai @Lone Laguna Espada @RZ.119 @Greenbeard @Zoro @zorojurou @Foxy Bunny @IceWitch @Yukihime @Gensui Sazid @bblue @I'mTired @DKI @Cross_Marian @kumae @Tamerani @K!NG HARA$H!MA @LuthonTheDragDown @Yo Tan Wa
Speculation on this topic began in early September 2020 when Chapter 990 was released, however the seeds were sown as early as Chapter 921 when Kiku described Kaido's portrayal among the people in Wano to Luffy's group as a "Wisdom King who protects over Wano"
The Fudo Myo is highly regarded among the Yakuza of Japan and its form bears an uncanny resemblance to Prime Hyou which makes him the perfect character to pass on the torch to Luffy who has the strength Hyou lacks to take the mantle as the ultimate "Protector" which is Acala's signature trait.
So, with Luffy's reference covered let's move on to Kaido. In Chapter 1009 Kaido uses the attack "Three Worlds - Pulled to Hell" (Trailokyavijaya Vidya-raja, the Conqueror of the Three Worlds) on Luffy, with Trailokyavijaya referring to the Wisdom King Gozanze Myo.
Back in September of last year I was discussing who the other possible Wisdom King candidates could be on Discord and Twitter DM's with twitter user @Portent199 . Funnily enough, in those discussions Kaido was considered as a possible candidate for Gozanze Myo having taken it from Oden, who has the most connections with that particular Wisdom King (much like Hyou and Luffy's situation).
The Conqueror of the Three Planes was one who held victory over the celestial, earthly and infernal realms, each representing greed, hatred and ignorance or the past, present and future. He is also supposed to be the protector of humans, to defend their borders from obstacles of enlightenment/freedom. It’s possible Oden was this deity, the destined protector and liberator of the people of Wano. Oden was a pirate, he traveled the world, and he was both a daimyo and a known criminal. His wife Toki traveled from the past, into the present and sent people into the future. Oden protected Wano’s people from the threat of Kaido and Orochi, trying his best to maintain their way of life while he suffered in their wake. After Oden died it’s possible Kaido is now the holder of this position, but is obviously not worthy and will have it taken when he is killed. Kaido's reputation as the strongest land, sea, and air also fits with this "three plane conqueror" theme.
A month prior to Chapter 990, in August, I made a twitter thread that I'll link here concerning this particular theme of Wano (deities/gods acting as saviors to Wano) predicting that Zoro will have a very important role of his own, following in the steps of Ryuma. I believe this trend is important as its basically the "inherited will" concept just rehashed with this Buddhist Wisdom King twist (Hyou handing off to Luffy, Ryuma handing off to Zoro) but the odd man out is of course Kaido being the "false god" as he is nothing like a protector and more like a tyrant.
Deity Theme Thread
Now, considering that I was already close to the mark in predicting which Wisdom King Kaido would be assigned to I would like to propose my reasoning and analysis for why Zoro is meant to represent the fifth Wisdom King: Vajrayakṣa (金剛夜叉明王, Kongōyasha Myō-ō; Jīngāng Yèchā Míngwáng) a.k.a "The Devourer of Demons" This prediction was initially made around the same time the Kaido prediction was done, but since then I have done more research and added some extra parts.
Kongō-Yasha is known as the protector of the northern realm (Ringo, a Shimotsuki territory) and devourer of demons. The ‘Kongō’ part of Kongō-Yasha literally means diamond like toughness, which makes sense since it’s the guardian deity with the highest ability to endure damage/hardship. Going along with this, we know from Kawamatsu in Chapter 953 that the warriors of the Shimotsuki clan were famed for their hardiness, which CLEARLY Zoro can relate to, if this current chapter is any more proof.
Kongō-Yasha also wields a weapon gifted by Indra, and this weapon is said to be able to harness the wrath of Asura and use it to destroy other wrathful deities. Speaking of Asura, the physical appearance of Kongō-Yasha has three heads and six arms, wielding a weapon in each hand, sound familiar? This aspect is unique to only Kongō-Yasha as the other wisdom kings have multiple heads and arms, but not that exact distribution.
He also is known to be the wisdom king that commands the most respect out of the five, a trait Zoro often displays as the vice captain of the crew with respect being paramount in his character. The reason Kongō-Yasha has the ephitet "Devoruer of Demons" is because he was known to be called upon by his followers to subdue demons or evil spirits that were plauging them. I believe the WSJ cover that included Zoro, Luffy, and Kaido with the caption "Two pirates kill the evil spirits!" is heavy foreshadowing that Kaido will be slayed through the efforts of this tag team therefore it can be said that Zoro's role in Wano is to strike down these "demons".
Just like the Fudo Myo (Hyou and G4 Luffy) is a symbol that the Yakuza of Japan look up to, Kongō-Yasha Myō-o was a symbol the Samurai of Japan looked up to. Zoro being a swordsman character with a bushido spirit and Japanese nationality is the quintessential samurai main character in OP.
To preface this part breakdown I must first let you know that all Wisdom Kings are actually manifestations of other, more important figures in the Buddhist religion. This is particularly important in Kongōyasha's case, as it opens the doors to many more connections to Zoro.
Kongōyasha is the Wrathful manifestation of Buddha Amoghasiddhi, who is associated with the color green, is depicted with swords, is symbolized by the moon (like the clans of wano), and is the protector over the northern realm (ringo). The last two associations are a perfect fit for the Shimotsuki clan that many have theorized may be Zoro's actual heritage, which I'm sure you are well versed in. Some other tidbits that aren't quite as strong include Amoghasiddhi being the Buddha that rules over the element of wind/air and Zoro with his flying slashes and heavy Tiger personification fits this well, along with the old Chinese proverb "Dragons bring the clouds, Tigers call forth the wind.”
Before I wrap this up another cool Buddhist detail this chap linking Kaido and Zoro is the glaring similarity in Zoro's "three thousand worlds" secret santoryu technique and the new move Kaido used this chapter “conqueror of the three planes” both charging up by spinning their weapon rapidly before delivering a massive strike. Zoro's attack is a direct reference to the Buddhist ideal that within the mind exist three thousands realms and each realm possesses the potential for wisdom and understanding, and we already went over Kaido's attack being a direct name reference to one of the five Wisdom Kings.
You may be wondering who the other two wisdom king references are if Zoro, Luffy, and Kaido have three locked up. Well, the truth is there are possible candidates for the other two wisdom kings, but they are way more of a stretch than the three I have talked about, so I don't feel like its worth it to delve into something with pretty weak foundation. But if I had to say, the other two are likely Law and Big Mom.
Finally, as for how I think Zoro will get his moment that links him with his Wisdom King, whenever he uses Asura on the roof he will either have a new name for the overall form and it will be Kongō-Yasha, or he keeps the name Asura but one of his new techniques while in the form will be named after the Wisdom King, like how it played out with Kaido. Needless to say I'm extremely excited for that time to come :)
@Den_Den_Mushi @Garp the Fist @ShishioIsBack @Cinera @Light D Lamperouge @Nidai_Kitetsu @Buggy D Clown @BossYimz @Rivaille @Cyrus the Cactus @stormylife @KiriNigiri @Reddot4 @Aknolagon @T.D.A @nik87 @HA001 @Fenaker @Admiral Lee Hung @playa4321 @Gol D. Roger @Haoshoku @Natalija @Reborn @Geo @LolonoisZolo @ShadyOjiro @Dragomir @Grumpy Zoro @Monet @Sade @Rukusho @ZoroSlaysDragonTuna @stairs-kun @Oblivion @yj @solis @Seth @Zowo @style @Blother @Camie @MarimoHeado @Marimo_420 @Orojackson Refugee @Zenos7 @Don DaSlayer @Guymieux @Dark Hound @HAJIKATA @Queen @LadyVados @bennbeckman @Ice devil slayer @Jew D. Boy @Gon’s Missing Arm @Mr. Bushido @Mikail @Thabeast @MasterD @Enma @Finalbeta @Sword God Ryuma @Sunita @RyumaZoro @Himura @yorosenpai @Lone Laguna Espada @RZ.119 @Greenbeard @Zoro @zorojurou @Foxy Bunny @IceWitch @Yukihime @Gensui Sazid @bblue @I'mTired @DKI @Cross_Marian @kumae @Tamerani @K!NG HARA$H!MA @LuthonTheDragDown @Yo Tan Wa
Great stuff. 
The false god Kaido could be replaced by new god Momonosuke? :zorothink:
The false god Kaido could be replaced by new god Momonosuke? :zorothink:
To think Oda has planned out all of this.
Even minor things like the association with the color green.
This is crazy!!
HYPE
Even minor things like the association with the color green.
This is crazy!!
HYPE
for me.
Thanks for the link @Lone Laguna Espada Tag @Fiji too on this.
Damn this read was epic.
I think the reason why all this fits into place is because Zoro's character model and background was one of Oda's first (Ryuma). With Ryuma, I'm certain as talented as Oda is would have meticulously crafted his character which carries on to Zoro, as Ryuma was not fully fleshed out within Monsters.
Zoro being a Samurai and of Japanese descent plays a massive role in the overall story of One Piece, and that's why most Zoro fans are so crazy about him. Zoro is a major main character in the story that people don't give credit for. And everything pre and post timeskip about him was carefully crafted, from his fights to his speeches, that's why Oda gives him a simple Gag of being lost all the time. It could not saying is, be the reason that he's lost is because Asura faces three different ways so Zoro is never following one path but several.
Another cool thing, Zoro always gets very deep lines, which in One Piece Standards people overlook bc they feel its edgy or something, for example,
Anyways I rambled on enough, this is a stellar post
Damn this read was epic.
I regret naming myself Yaksha and not Yasha 
would be more Zoro centric.
would be more Zoro centric.I think the reason why all this fits into place is because Zoro's character model and background was one of Oda's first (Ryuma). With Ryuma, I'm certain as talented as Oda is would have meticulously crafted his character which carries on to Zoro, as Ryuma was not fully fleshed out within Monsters.
Zoro being a Samurai and of Japanese descent plays a massive role in the overall story of One Piece, and that's why most Zoro fans are so crazy about him. Zoro is a major main character in the story that people don't give credit for. And everything pre and post timeskip about him was carefully crafted, from his fights to his speeches, that's why Oda gives him a simple Gag of being lost all the time. It could not saying is, be the reason that he's lost is because Asura faces three different ways so Zoro is never following one path but several.
Another cool thing, Zoro always gets very deep lines, which in One Piece Standards people overlook bc they feel its edgy or something, for example,
- "Bring on the hardship, it's preferred in the path of Carnage"
- "The nine mountains and eight seas...There's nothing I can't cut!"
- "Let us begin, the world of violence"
- "It may not be the way of times anymore, but in death is what completes a person"
Anyways I rambled on enough, this is a stellar post
The duality of Zoro and Kaido is just astounding with how deep it’s layers go, the ZKK plotline has been so meticulously crafted over the years and with such patience you can tell Oda is so passionate when handling these characters on screen. I believe the best of this dynamic is yet to come, it will truly begin when it dawns on Kaido that Zoro is the one he was waiting for, a monster samurai of Oden’s caliber to finally engage in a fair fight and right the wrongs of his past (old hag interfering) I’ll stop here but I could go on, the impact Oden had on Kaido and Zoro’s possible role in this fight all have such INMENSE potential for character building and is definitely thread worthy on its own
100% agree with everything you said, awesome write up
The duality of Zoro and Kaido is just astounding with how deep it’s layers go, the ZKK plotline has been so meticulously crafted over the years and with such patience you can tell Oda is so passionate when handling these characters on screen. I believe the best of this dynamic is yet to come, it will truly begin when it dawns on Kaido that Zoro is the one he was waiting for, a monster samurai of Oden’s caliber to finally engage in a fair fight and right the wrongs of his past (old hag interfering) I’ll stop here but I could go on, the impact Oden had on Kaido and Zoro’s possible role in this fight all have such INMENSE potential for character building and is definitely thread worthy on its own
The duality of Zoro and Kaido is just astounding with how deep it’s layers go, the ZKK plotline has been so meticulously crafted over the years and with such patience you can tell Oda is so passionate when handling these characters on screen. I believe the best of this dynamic is yet to come, it will truly begin when it dawns on Kaido that Zoro is the one he was waiting for, a monster samurai of Oden’s caliber to finally engage in a fair fight and right the wrongs of his past (old hag interfering) I’ll stop here but I could go on, the impact Oden had on Kaido and Zoro’s possible role in this fight all have such INMENSE potential for character building and is definitely thread worthy on its own
Oda has done this masterfully. And like both of us said, I’m sure we can spend hours and thousands of words writing up parallels, inspirations, and theories with the canon material provided.
And such as you, I am very excited on how Oda will finalize this.
@dontflame this was a simply amazing read. I consider myself one of the best thread creators/theorists on WorstGen — speaking without modesty, I believe my ZKK Library is the most rigorous theorising there is on here — and this must be in the top 1% of threads I've read here. As far as theories go, I am not really aware of any other theory with as much research and rigour as this (other than the ZKK stuff, but ZKK is a massive undertaking, and I'm applying very exacting standards to it that some Academic works don't meet. Yes, I'm very proud of my work on it).
Anyway, the point to all of this self wank is that this is not praise I would give out lightly to just anyone. Truly, this is among the best works on here.
My favourite part is:
You gave an explicit narrow and testable prediction that provides strong evidence in favour of or against your theory. From an epistemic hygiene perspective this is amazing.
Adding to your prediction, the reveal of Kaido's Wisdom King attack had a chapter with a name referencing the attack (Naraku => Ragna Naraku). This doesn't have to happen, but it would be a decent supporting indicator regarding your theory.
This is coming from me, but there's a level of epistemic rigour here that's stronger than 99% of threads written here. Honestly if I'm allowed to toot my own horn, the main improvement I would have made if I wrote this would be in addition to listing the events that would make me update in favour of my theory (the predictions of my theory so to speak) to explicitly list out the events that would make me update against my particular theory.
Here's an example (copied from my thread on why I'm not yet convinced that Luffy defeats Kaido):
Predictions
The following events would make me update towards Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
The following events would make me update away from Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
(I'm the only one that I've seen do this, and I have exacting epistemic standards in general, I so like I said, better epistemic rigour than 99% of threads on WorstGen). This is definitely going in my Hall of Fame.
All things considered, I'm especially excited that this is a theory that we would soon be able to test. There's truly wonderful times ahead for Zoro fans.
As an aside, something I think you missed here is that Zoro said he was going to round up the Samurai/lead them:
That might be foreshadowing of his role as Kongo Yasha.
@Den_Den_Mushi, @Nidai_Kitetsu, @Garp the Fist, @KiriNigiri: I would absolutely love to hear your take on this.
@dontflame: BTW do you mind if I incorporate your work into my Grand Library of ZKK? There's no guarantee that I would actually get around to writing the missing segments, but this is a really, really nice touch.
Anyway, the point to all of this self wank is that this is not praise I would give out lightly to just anyone. Truly, this is among the best works on here.
My favourite part is:
You gave an explicit narrow and testable prediction that provides strong evidence in favour of or against your theory. From an epistemic hygiene perspective this is amazing.
Adding to your prediction, the reveal of Kaido's Wisdom King attack had a chapter with a name referencing the attack (Naraku => Ragna Naraku). This doesn't have to happen, but it would be a decent supporting indicator regarding your theory.
This is coming from me, but there's a level of epistemic rigour here that's stronger than 99% of threads written here. Honestly if I'm allowed to toot my own horn, the main improvement I would have made if I wrote this would be in addition to listing the events that would make me update in favour of my theory (the predictions of my theory so to speak) to explicitly list out the events that would make me update against my particular theory.
Here's an example (copied from my thread on why I'm not yet convinced that Luffy defeats Kaido):
Predictions
The following events would make me update towards Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
- Zoro declaring to Kaido that he shall cut down/kill/slay/defeat him
- Perhaps this happens when Zoro gets his eponymous chapter
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently a samurai on par with Oden
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently a samurai that exceeds Oden
- Kaido expressing the desire to die at Zoro's hands
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently capable of killing/defeating him
- E.g. "if it's him, he could do it"
The following events would make me update away from Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
- Zoro declaring that Luffy will become the Pirate King
- Zoro leaving the Kaido battle
- For any reason at all
- Luffy declaring that he wants to overcome and surpass Kaido now
- Not in the future, not eventually, something along the lines of his declaration of intent regarding Katakuri.
- E.g. "I want to overcome him, the Emperor known as Kaido, I want to beat him!"
- Zoro declaring that Luffy will surpass/defeat Kaido
- Zoro entrusting Luffy with defeating Kaido
(I'm the only one that I've seen do this, and I have exacting epistemic standards in general, I so like I said, better epistemic rigour than 99% of threads on WorstGen). This is definitely going in my Hall of Fame.
All things considered, I'm especially excited that this is a theory that we would soon be able to test. There's truly wonderful times ahead for Zoro fans.
As an aside, something I think you missed here is that Zoro said he was going to round up the Samurai/lead them:
That might be foreshadowing of his role as Kongo Yasha.
@Den_Den_Mushi, @Nidai_Kitetsu, @Garp the Fist, @KiriNigiri: I would absolutely love to hear your take on this.
@dontflame: BTW do you mind if I incorporate your work into my Grand Library of ZKK? There's no guarantee that I would actually get around to writing the missing segments, but this is a really, really nice touch.
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Very nicely written. I like the effort and the new info. I did not know that Luffy was being directly called Acala in Japanese raw. Also, Nice catch that Shimotsuki being known for their "hardiness".
So, we got two references of Kaido related to Buddhism - (1) Wisdom king and (2) this new attack based on "Three Worlds - Pulled to Hell" (Trailokyavijaya Vidya-raja, the Conqueror of the Three World), which I find very interesting. We saw a lot of Zoro's moves referencing Buddhism before =>
On a sidenote, The three world in Kaido's attack and the three thousand world in Zoro's attacks are based on different concepts if I understood it correctly.
So, we got two references of Kaido related to Buddhism - (1) Wisdom king and (2) this new attack based on "Three Worlds - Pulled to Hell" (Trailokyavijaya Vidya-raja, the Conqueror of the Three World), which I find very interesting. We saw a lot of Zoro's moves referencing Buddhism before =>
Its been years since I have compiled a list of Zoro's attacks based on Buddhism. It seems some of you are interested in this stuff, so I am posting the list here, also to keep it as a reference for future:
(1) The first reference of Buddhism is none other than Sanzen Sekai, which means three thousand worlds. Its taken from Buddhist cosmology, I will explain this later in (5).
(2) The next reference was given when Zoro faced Braham in Skypea and used 36-pound canon:
Zoro says, "Sight, sound smell, taste, touch, thought...the 6 senses are sometimes good, evil or neutral. Each of them can then be pure or tainted. They make up the thirty six passions of life"
In traditional Buddhism, people are said to have 36 passions. They arise from 18 feelings. Each of these feelings can be either attached to pleasure or detached from pleasure. People perceive those feelings through their six senses.
(3) This continued against Ohm.
Zoro says, "One lifetime, 36 torments...........two lifetime, 72 torments.........three lifetimes, 108 torments......."
Again, from Buddhism, the 36 passions may be manifested in past, present and future, making a total of 108 afflictions/torments.
(4) The most obvious one is Asura. An Asura in Buddhism is a demigod or titan. Before using Asura Ichibugin, Zoro says this (ViZ butchered this translation):
"Suffering is welcome .......... on the path of carnage"
This is a complex concept. Buddhism talks a lot about suffering and in some way, suffering is considered as a good thing. The idea is something like suffering should be embraced because it makes you mentally stronger. I am not myself clear about it and need to study if I get time. I am also not sure why Zoro says on the path of carnage.
(5) Next, before cutting Pica, Zoro says, "Over the 9 mountains and 8 seas... Throughout the world itself... There is nothing I cannot cut."
-- This again refers to the mountains and seas that constitute a world according to Buddhist cosmology. The nine mountains are Mount Sumeru at the center of the world and eight concentric mountain ranges that surround it. Eight concentric seas separate these mountain ranges.
Daisen sekai's Iiterally means Three Thousand Great Thousand Worlds
A 1000 worlds (9 mountain, 8 sea = one world) constitute a 'thousandfold world system'. A thousand of these makes up a 'second-order thousandfold world system'. Then, when multiplied a thousand times further, this makes a 'third-order world system' or 'trichiliocosm'. Therefore, Three-Thousand does not mean 3,000, but 1,000 raised to the power of 3.
Basically, it means a universe with billions of worlds.
(6) A few other references:
- Daibutsu Giri means Great Buddha chop
- Yasa Garasu against Oars: Wiki says Yaksha is the devil which embraced Buddhism
- Rokudo no Tsuji: Literal meaning "Crossroad of Six Paths", A reference to six paths of Buddhism
- Kokujo O Tatsumaki: "Kokujo" is Japanese for Kalasutra, one of the eight levels of hot Naraka (hell) in Buddhism
(1) The first reference of Buddhism is none other than Sanzen Sekai, which means three thousand worlds. Its taken from Buddhist cosmology, I will explain this later in (5).
(2) The next reference was given when Zoro faced Braham in Skypea and used 36-pound canon:
In traditional Buddhism, people are said to have 36 passions. They arise from 18 feelings. Each of these feelings can be either attached to pleasure or detached from pleasure. People perceive those feelings through their six senses.
(3) This continued against Ohm.
Again, from Buddhism, the 36 passions may be manifested in past, present and future, making a total of 108 afflictions/torments.
(4) The most obvious one is Asura. An Asura in Buddhism is a demigod or titan. Before using Asura Ichibugin, Zoro says this (ViZ butchered this translation):
"Suffering is welcome .......... on the path of carnage"
This is a complex concept. Buddhism talks a lot about suffering and in some way, suffering is considered as a good thing. The idea is something like suffering should be embraced because it makes you mentally stronger. I am not myself clear about it and need to study if I get time. I am also not sure why Zoro says on the path of carnage.
(5) Next, before cutting Pica, Zoro says, "Over the 9 mountains and 8 seas... Throughout the world itself... There is nothing I cannot cut."
-- This again refers to the mountains and seas that constitute a world according to Buddhist cosmology. The nine mountains are Mount Sumeru at the center of the world and eight concentric mountain ranges that surround it. Eight concentric seas separate these mountain ranges.
Daisen sekai's Iiterally means Three Thousand Great Thousand Worlds
A 1000 worlds (9 mountain, 8 sea = one world) constitute a 'thousandfold world system'. A thousand of these makes up a 'second-order thousandfold world system'. Then, when multiplied a thousand times further, this makes a 'third-order world system' or 'trichiliocosm'. Therefore, Three-Thousand does not mean 3,000, but 1,000 raised to the power of 3.
Basically, it means a universe with billions of worlds.
(6) A few other references:
- Daibutsu Giri means Great Buddha chop
- Yasa Garasu against Oars: Wiki says Yaksha is the devil which embraced Buddhism
- Rokudo no Tsuji: Literal meaning "Crossroad of Six Paths", A reference to six paths of Buddhism
- Kokujo O Tatsumaki: "Kokujo" is Japanese for Kalasutra, one of the eight levels of hot Naraka (hell) in Buddhism
Fantastic job @dontflame, I enjoyed a lot this reading.
What do you think about this connection between Zoro and Wano,
The wrath of the god sword when Zoro was facing the monk during the bridge fight. Is that something that is related to Buddhism too?
What do you think about this connection between Zoro and Wano,
The wrath of the god sword when Zoro was facing the monk during the bridge fight. Is that something that is related to Buddhism too?
@dontflame this was a simply amazing read. I consider myself one of the best thread creators/theorists on WorstGen — speaking without modesty, I believe my ZKK Library is the most rigorous theorising there is on here — and this must be in the top 1% of threads I've read here. As far as theories go, I am not really aware of any other theory with as much research and rigour as this (other than the ZKK stuff, but ZKK is a massive undertaking, and I'm applying very exacting standards to it that some Academic works don't meet. Yes, I'm very proud of my work on it).
Anyway, the point to all of this self wank is that this is not praise I would give out lightly to just anyone. Truly, this is among the best works on here.
My favourite part is:
You gave an explicit narrow and testable prediction that provides strong evidence in favour of or against your theory. From an epistemic hygiene perspective this is amazing.
Adding to your prediction, the reveal of Kaido's Wisdom King attack had a chapter with a name referencing the attack (Naraku => Ragna Naraku). This doesn't have to happen, but it would be a decent supporting indicator regarding your theory.
This is coming from me, but there's a level of epistemic rigour here that's stronger than 99% of threads written here. Honestly if I'm allowed to toot my own horn, the main improvement I would have made if I wrote this would be in addition to listing the events that would make me update in favour of my theory (the predictions of my theory so to speak) to explicitly list out the events that would make me update against my particular theory.
Here's an example (copied from my thread on why I'm not yet convinced that Luffy defeats Kaido):
Predictions
The following events would make me update towards Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
The following events would make me update away from Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
(I'm the only one that I've seen do this, and I have exacting epistemic standards in general, I so like I said, better epistemic rigour than 99% of threads on WorstGen). This is definitely going in my Hall of Fame.
All things considered, I'm especially excited that this is a theory that we would soon be able to test. There's truly wonderful times ahead for Zoro fans.
As an aside, something I think you missed here is that Zoro said he was going to round up the Samurai/lead them:
That might be foreshadowing of his role as Kongo Yasha.
@Den_Den_Mushi, @Nidai_Kitetsu, @Garp the Fist, @KiriNigiri: I would absolutely love to hear your take on this.
@dontflame: BTW do you mind if I incorporate your work into my Grand Library of ZKK? There's no guarantee that I would actually get around to writing the missing segments, but this is a really, really nice touch.
Anyway, the point to all of this self wank is that this is not praise I would give out lightly to just anyone. Truly, this is among the best works on here.
My favourite part is:
You gave an explicit narrow and testable prediction that provides strong evidence in favour of or against your theory. From an epistemic hygiene perspective this is amazing.
Adding to your prediction, the reveal of Kaido's Wisdom King attack had a chapter with a name referencing the attack (Naraku => Ragna Naraku). This doesn't have to happen, but it would be a decent supporting indicator regarding your theory.
This is coming from me, but there's a level of epistemic rigour here that's stronger than 99% of threads written here. Honestly if I'm allowed to toot my own horn, the main improvement I would have made if I wrote this would be in addition to listing the events that would make me update in favour of my theory (the predictions of my theory so to speak) to explicitly list out the events that would make me update against my particular theory.
Here's an example (copied from my thread on why I'm not yet convinced that Luffy defeats Kaido):
Predictions
The following events would make me update towards Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
- Zoro declaring to Kaido that he shall cut down/kill/slay/defeat him
- Perhaps this happens when Zoro gets his eponymous chapter
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently a samurai on par with Oden
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently a samurai that exceeds Oden
- Kaido expressing the desire to die at Zoro's hands
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently capable of killing/defeating him
- E.g. "if it's him, he could do it"
The following events would make me update away from Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
- Zoro declaring that Luffy will become the Pirate King
- Zoro leaving the Kaido battle
- For any reason at all
- Luffy declaring that he wants to overcome and surpass Kaido now
- Not in the future, not eventually, something along the lines of his declaration of intent regarding Katakuri.
- E.g. "I want to overcome him, the Emperor known as Kaido, I want to beat him!"
- Zoro declaring that Luffy will surpass/defeat Kaido
- Zoro entrusting Luffy with defeating Kaido
(I'm the only one that I've seen do this, and I have exacting epistemic standards in general, I so like I said, better epistemic rigour than 99% of threads on WorstGen). This is definitely going in my Hall of Fame.
All things considered, I'm especially excited that this is a theory that we would soon be able to test. There's truly wonderful times ahead for Zoro fans.
As an aside, something I think you missed here is that Zoro said he was going to round up the Samurai/lead them:
That might be foreshadowing of his role as Kongo Yasha.
@Den_Den_Mushi, @Nidai_Kitetsu, @Garp the Fist, @KiriNigiri: I would absolutely love to hear your take on this.
@dontflame: BTW do you mind if I incorporate your work into my Grand Library of ZKK? There's no guarantee that I would actually get around to writing the missing segments, but this is a really, really nice touch.
First off, I'm blown away by the effort put into your ZKK library post, compiling all of that information in an efficient and comprehensive manner is no small feat, bravo man. If any theory was worth it for that kind of rigor, ZKK would be it no doubt.
I agree that testable predictions are paramount to any theory, otherwise the grounds on which to prove the theory right or wrong become too murky and unconvincing. Listing possible events for or against the theory and how the theory would be updated as a result is also brilliant, definitely something worth adding!
Great catch on tying this back to Zoro's promise! Considering that now that you've brought it to my attention, I wonder if perhaps another avenue for Oda to let the audience know Zoro is linked with Kongo-Yasha is through a side characters inner monologue, similar to Hyou witnessing Luffy in his Boundman form. This could possibly occur when Zoro enters his Asura state and either a Kozuki allied samurai or former samurai living in the flower capital sees him and immediately makes the connection that he is like a guardian deity.
As for your offer, I'd be honored if you incorporated this thread into the Grand Library, and I can take it upon myself to edit in the missing segments and improvements you've pointed out in this reply :) :cheers:
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That's great write up on Zoro's attacks Buddhism references, nice job
Yes you are correct, the three thousands worlds referenced in Zoro's technique is not based on the same concept as Kaido's three realms. There is some overlap between the two in how realms exist in the mind and understanding that can allow you to reach higher planes of being, but the comparisons pretty much stop there. I find the similarities between the mannerisms of the attack to be more solid than the Buddhist aspects anyways.
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Fantastic job @dontflame, I enjoyed a lot this reading.
What do you think about this connection between Zoro and Wano,
The wrath of the god sword when Zoro was facing the monk during the bridge fight. Is that something that is related to Buddhism too?
What do you think about this connection between Zoro and Wano,
The wrath of the god sword when Zoro was facing the monk during the bridge fight. Is that something that is related to Buddhism too?
This page has always felt more like ancient superstition type beliefs rather than anything explicitly tied to Buddhism. In the Wano arc Oda has used certain themes like prophecy (Toki's) that coincide with the fascination surrounding Ryuma's legend. Some people continue to be devout believers, like the old lady that stood up to Asura Douji, and others have abandoned hope in abstract concepts. Gyukimaru is a character I would put into the devout believer category, as he was the companion of the former Shimotsuki Daimyo and his role for the past 20 years was gathering weapons. With that in mind it's no wonder his obsession over Ryuma and Shusui seem extreme even when it is considered Wano's National Treasure. Such strong obsession can spur on wild superstition such as what he spewed off here, that somehow even beyond the grave Ryuma is able to curse the inhabitants of Wano for stealing his most prized possession. Of course something like that would go against every fiber of Ryuma's character, someone who lived their entire life defending Wano from outside forces would never intentionally invite misfortune into Wano's borders.
I particularly enjoy the classic Zoro panel in the bottom right with him taking offense to the word "God" as he has done many times previously in the story
For someone who knew quite a bit about Ryuma's legacy it's interesting the title "Sword God" is foreign to him, perhaps this will be revisited when we see Zoro visiting his grave 
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