Character Discussion Doflamingo vs Katakuri character-wise

Who is the better character?


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    145
#21
Katakuri had potential. This dumb respect/pride thing ruined him for me. I actually liked how he cared about his family and his people. Yet he goes out killing innocent chefs, shouting at his little sister that only wanted to help, and starts supporting the criminal that destroyed his country and beat up his family. Like how can you go supporting the main villain of your own story. Cause thats what Luffy was to Katakuri at the start. Then Oda threw the whole "he hates BM" hint at the end. Oda my dude that is not enough.

Katakuri's character is just not realistic. And I think Oda really wanted us to like Katakuri, so thats why he made him like an ally at the end. But its just plain retarded writing. Stop ruining characters and making them do stuff that contridicts how you previously written them. Please.

I still remember the day when the spoilers released of the chap where Katakuri stabbed himself. I was in complete disbelief and protected Katakuri throughout. Saying it was fake spoilers and what not. Until I saw the pictures and saw the idiot stab himself. Till then I was completely done with his idiotic character.
While I agree that Katakuri's character and his actions werent realistic, they were consistent with how Big Mom's children have all acted once they encountered someone they love and or respected more than Big Mom herself. Pudding and Sanji, Chiffon and Bege, Praline and Aladdin etc. Thats likely because Big Mom doesn't show love or affection for her kids. They are just a means to an end and she treats them as such. Katakuri is no different. Once his respect for Luffy evened or outweighed his need to protect the family. (Also knowing that even if he lost the crew wouldnt be in any real danger just danger of loss of face) he acted accordingly. Not justifying stabbing himself, more so highlighting the similarity to his siblings in this regard lol

Now as for whether he's comparable to Doffy as a character thats a hell no. He's not nuanced or fleshed out enough. Ultimately he's just the super strong son of a monster burdened with being the champion of his family and the lies attached to it. DD is well one of the most interesting characters in all of Manga. His ambitions, his tactics, his backstory, his style, his fighting ability, the speeches, the knowledge, the power, the link to roughly everything in the OP world. He's just different.

And Lowkey that fight between them would be much closer then I think most would like to believe..
 
#22
Katakuri is sort of a poorly written mess. When you look at his character in hindsight, he’s pretty internally consistent, but the timing with which Oda chose to reveal crucial aspects of his character that were massively important to his loss to Luffy, just came off as some of the worst MC plot armor of all time.

The Chadflamingo however, is one of the more well written OP characters there is. His motivations as a villain were crystal clear and perfectly lined up with his backstory (unlike katakuri) and I never questioned why Doflamingo was doing what he did because his established character (even from all the way back in Jaya) matched up almost flawlessly with the actions he later takes.

Plus Doffy just has that epic charisma. Kuri is more of a manbaby.

Doffy’s fight was also handled correctly power level wise, whereas Luffy vs Katakuri is the second most retarded fight Oda has ever drawn in that department (aside from Luffy vs Kaido ofc). You can’t just establish Haki as the counter to Devil Fruit powers, and then have Luffy tank 50+ Advanced Koka infused hits to his weakpoints without actually ever losing the fight. It kinda takes away the tension from future OP fights, knowing that the main character is more invincible than Kaido.

The only worse decision that Oda could’ve made PL wise, was to make Luffy’s ass-pull power up against Katakuri completely redundant by having him get low diffed by a Yonko afterwards. Imagine that level of retardation. Lol

Luffy had actual real stamina against Doflamingo. Oda had to start the fight off by having law weaken Doffy, as we know Doffy was just too strong of a Pirate for Luffy to defeat at the time. Then both Luffy and Doffy showed signs of tiring as the fight went on, even requiring Gats to carry him away for a little while so that he could rest before continuing the fight. This is imo, a proper way to add tension to a fight, because Luffy was at his limit and yet still had to find a way and perservere to win the fight anyway. Unlike in Katakuri, where Luffy is just invincible and nothing matters.

So yeah, overall Doffy blows Kuri away.
I totally agree, in itself i found Katakuri stabbing himself and basically rebelling against BM an interesting choice, but the timing of the scene was completely off.
 
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#24
While I agree that Katakuri's character and his actions werent realistic, they were consistent with how Big Mom's children have all acted once they encountered someone they love and or respected more than Big Mom herself. Pudding and Sanji, Chiffon and Bege, Praline and Aladdin etc. Thats likely because Big Mom doesn't show love or affection for her kids. They are just a means to an end and she treats them as such. Katakuri is no different. Once his respect for Luffy evened or outweighed his need to protect the family. (Also knowing that even if he lost the crew wouldnt be in any real danger just danger of loss of face) he acted accordingly. Not justifying stabbing himself, more so highlighting the similarity to his siblings in this regard lol

Now as for whether he's comparable to Doffy as a character thats a hell no. He's not nuanced or fleshed out enough. Ultimately he's just the super strong son of a monster burdened with being the champion of his family and the lies attached to it. DD is well one of the most interesting characters in all of Manga. His ambitions, his tactics, his backstory, his style, his fighting ability, the speeches, the knowledge, the power, the link to roughly everything in the OP world. He's just different.

And Lowkey that fight between them would be much closer then I think most would like to believe..
The thing is Oda never set it up right. Luffy was just acting pure moronic the entire time. He literally said nothing respectful nor did Katakuri say he was someone to be respected ( till he said something along those lines). Luffy didnt give a speech that moved Katakuri. Didnt do anything to garner respect. And like 2 chapters before we have Katakuri saying Luffy needs to be taken out asap.

So this character change legit comes out of nowehere. At the very least with Pudding we have the Lola set up. And at the very least her backstory lines up with what Sanji said to her. Whilst Katakuri being a pelican eel makes no sense for him to like Luffy.

Katakuri vs Luffy is a whole ass mess tbh. The only good thing is the art.
 

TheAncientCenturion

I will never forgive Oda
‎‎‎
#28
Essentially everything that can be said has been said. Katakuri acted more like a roadblock for Luffy than a character with much motivation of his own, and was inconsistent throughout his own fight. Values "honor" and "manliness" all of a sudden at the end of the duel, but nothing about him before this moment even suggests Katakuri considers those virtues worthwhile. He even seemed more pragmatic and detached earlier in the arc lol.

I prefer Lord Katakuri over Doffy. He is just more fun and enjoyable. Not only is Lord Katakuri more relevant than Doffy, he is also stronger, and he is the reason why Luffy can even go against Kaido in the first place. Katakuri is also just better written.
 

ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#29
Katakuri was a breath of fresh air for a few reasons.

Every one in WCI was incompetent, and even when they seemed like they weren't, their sole purpose was to hype their captain Big Mom (Cracker is an example of this, his scenes served nothing more than to hype up his captain and her territory). Katakuri was the sole character on WCI who wasn't just an extension or a hype tool for his captain. Since his introduction in WCI, all of his actions (and others who hyped him) were built for him and him alone. To hype himself and build himself, not Big Mom (in fact his hype was given a priority over her). Not just for strength but as a character himself, he felt real, like an actual individual entity in a massive crew where others were just nothing more than fragments of Big Mom and WCI scattered around in character form. Katakuri was gold among the dross, competent and distinct among his peers.

So Oda kept building him up, calm, collected, cool, the perfect character. His character archetype already solidified, his stock already on the rise....and then bam! We see this perfect character, sitting there looking like a goofball with his mouth wide open feeding on donuts with his back rested, akin to you catching your role model in their room masturbating. Butt naked and completely vulnerable. One of the most shocking moments in One Piece history, and the immediate aftermath was bone chilling. The calmest and most understanding character, seething with rage, brutally murders his men without hesitation. A complete 180, only Oda would have the balls to pull off something like that on an "edge-lord" archetype. Did he need this? Not really, simplicity can work wonders as well, he was already fine the way he was but just like that, this moment added layers of depth to his character.

Even before that though, in battle Katakuri was unique. Katakuri from the jump was treating his fight against Luffy as a 1v1 show of dominance, his fight started with him using Luffy's own arsenal against him but bigger, faster, and stronger. Absolutely embarrassed him off the jump. Aside from that, his unwillingness to let Luffy enter Gear 4 broke the meta. Finally an opponent wasn't all empty talk when it came to "not underestimating" Luffy. People love to bring up him doing exactly that (underestimating Luffy) by leaving him, but this was handled as well as a PIS moment could be imo. Burying Luffy was the convenient thing to do and the reason for doing so was because he had already tried to deal a lethal blow to Luffy with Mogura, but that wasn't working, so overwhelminging Luffy with his awakening was the fastest way of getting rid of him (atleast in Kat's head). Like any temptation or craving, Kat’s mind being preoccupied by his daily routine already running late, kept him from the patience he needed to see through to Luffy’s death (in the first place Katakuri had no idea how big of a connoisseur Luffy was, burying Luffy in food is only benefiting Luffy, most people would suffocate).

In stark contrast to this Doflamingo seemed like a contradictory mess. He started off the arc noting Crocodile's defeat, making sure he learns from the danger of underestimating his opponent, yet when the time to back that up came, he was letting Luffy power up in his face and laughing at it, and then even after knowing the strength of G4 and the risks of taking it on, he directly challenges it with a "my dick is bigger than yours" moment gearing up for a final clash, instead of using his head. Leaving his statements holding no weight, and falling back into the typical One Piece villain formula. Heck even before this, he had Law completely in his hands with sea stone cuffs, Luffy right there in front of him, and Pica at his disposal. What does he do? Lets them all free and starts a treasure hunt game. Only for Pica to get defeated, Law to come back in better shape with his fellow WG member. Yea so much for not underestimating his enemies. Doflamingo was pretty much a pseudo intellectual masked as a cunning meticulous planner, he came off as a bit of a fraud because of this.

Katakuri on the other hand, from early on in the fight had been laid down as a "fraud", the scene of him eating donuts completely laid the groundwork for a potential change in approach, because now we know he isn't exactly what we were made to believe. His entire fabric had been undone infront of our eyes, so anything from that point on was a question mark. Anything went. And no, him stabbing himself wasn't the real change, from the get go Katakuri was big on this being a 1v1 with him and Luffy [1]. So it was obvious that interference on that caliber was not going to sit well with him. The real difference in approach from the beginning and the end was how he let Luffy get back up and power up, vs earlier on where he refused to let him power up. But again like I said, after the merienda, anything goes. Half the reason he was ending the fight ASAP earlier was to have his meal, Luffy powering up does not help his case in his head. With all of that out of the way, he wasn't worried about ending things as soon as possible, his priorities and focus shifted. This falls in line with Big Mom and how her kingdom had been run in the first place. Big Mom does not have this many strong individuals under her because they respect her as a Captain, Big Mom is their biological mother, these kids were given no choice to ever be a part of her crew to begin with. The day they were born they were already pushed into this storm. And this really showed throughout the arc, with a lot of the crews loyalty coming into question. Her way of ruling was her own downfall.

All of these reasons are why I believe Katakuri's battle was more believable (no I'm not talking about Luffy's endurance, but rather Kat's actions) than the contradictory decision making Doflamingo kept displaying during Dressrosa. Both Katakuri and Doflamingo have badass character designs and swagger, but at the end of the day as much as a special case Doflamingo prepped himself up to be, he ended up acting like your generic One Piece villain, no different than his predecessors (Croc, Enel etc). The execution behind that is the reason I enjoyed Katakuri more as a character, he was truly a breath of fresh air from the norm.
 
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S

Shura

#31
Doflamingo is nothing but cheaper version of Crocodile...he has great charisma than Katakuri and as an importance he is more relevant than Katakuri however, Katakuri is not a villain that Luffy has to defeat, he is a stronger version of Luffy that Luffy had to overcome....there is a reason the fight between Luffy and Katakuri was different from traditional Luffy fights....that fight started with the purpose of taking the main threat away from SH to must overcome the obstacle that was before Luffy....only thing that was disappointing was like many others said, it lacked proper build up and it came out of no where and so people felt underwhelming...
 
#32
Doflamingo is nothing but cheaper version of Crocodile...he has great charisma than Katakuri and as an importance he is more relevant than Katakuri however, Katakuri is not a villain that Luffy has to defeat, he is a stronger version of Luffy that Luffy had to overcome....there is a reason the fight between Luffy and Katakuri was different from traditional Luffy fights....that fight started with the purpose of taking the main threat away from SH to must overcome the obstacle that was before Luffy....only thing that was disappointing was like many others said, it lacked proper build up and it came out of no where and so people felt underwhelming...
Crocodile is a disney movie villain compared to Doflamingo.
 
#35
Katakuri was a breath of fresh air for a few reasons.

Every one in WCI was incompetent, and even when they seemed like they weren't, their sole purpose was to hype their captain Big Mom (Cracker is an example of this, his scenes served nothing more than to hype up his captain and her territory). Katakuri was the sole character on WCI who wasn't just an extension or a hype tool for his captain. Since his introduction in WCI, all of his actions (and others who hyped him) were built for him and him alone. To hype himself and build himself, not Big Mom (in fact his hype was given a priority over her). Not just for strength but as a character himself, he felt real, like an actual individual entity in a massive crew where others were just nothing more than fragments of Big Mom and WCI scattered around in character form. Katakuri was gold among the dross, competent and distinct among his peers.

So Oda kept building him up, calm, collected, cool, the perfect character. His character archetype already solidified, his stock already on the rise....and then bam! We see this perfect character, sitting there looking like a goofball with his mouth wide open feeding on donuts with his back rested, akin to you catching your role model in their room masturbating. Butt naked and completely vulnerable. One of the most shocking moments in One Piece history, and the immediate aftermath was bone chilling. The calmest and most understanding character, seething with rage, brutally murders his men without hesitation. A complete 180, only Oda would have the balls to pull off something like that on an "edge-lord" archetype. Did he need this? Not really, simplicity can work wonders as well, he was already fine the way he was but just like that, this moment added layers of depth to his character.

Even before that though, in battle Katakuri was unique. Katakuri from the jump was treating his fight against Luffy as a 1v1 show of dominance, his fight started with him using Luffy's own arsenal against him but bigger, faster, and stronger. Absolutely embarrassed him off the jump. Aside from that, his unwillingness to let Luffy enter Gear 4 broke the meta. Finally an opponent wasn't all empty talk when it came to "not underestimating" Luffy. People love to bring up him doing exactly that (underestimating Luffy) by leaving him, but this was handled as well as a PIS moment could be imo. Burying Luffy was the convenient thing to do and the reason for doing so was because he had already tried to deal a lethal blow to Luffy with Mogura, but that wasn't working, so overwhelminging Luffy with his awakening was the fastest way of getting rid of him (atleast in Kat's head). Like any temptation or craving, Kat’s mind being preoccupied by his daily routine already running late, kept him from the patience he needed to see through to Luffy’s death (in the first place Katakuri had no idea how big of a connoisseur Luffy was, burying Luffy in food is only benefiting Luffy, most people would suffocate).

In stark contrast to this Doflamingo seemed like a contradictory mess. He started off the arc noting Crocodile's defeat, making sure he learns from the danger of underestimating his opponent, yet when the time to back that up came, he was letting Luffy power up in his face and laughing at it, and then even after knowing the strength of G4 and the risks of taking it on, he directly challenges it with a "my dick is bigger than yours" moment gearing up for a final clash, instead of using his head. Leaving his statements holding no weight, and falling back into the typical One Piece villain formula. Heck even before this, he had Law completely in his hands with sea stone cuffs, Luffy right there in front of him, and Pica at his disposal. What does he do? Lets them all free and starts a treasure hunt game. Only for Pica to get defeated, Law to come back in better shape with his fellow WG member. Yea so much for not underestimating his enemies. Doflamingo was pretty much a pseudo intellectual masked as a cunning meticulous planner, he came off as a bit of a fraud because of this.

Katakuri on the other hand, from early on in the fight had been laid down as a "fraud", the scene of him eating donuts completely laid the groundwork for a potential change in approach, because now we know he isn't exactly what we were made to believe. His entire fabric had been undone infront of our eyes, so anything from that point on was a question mark. Anything went. And no, him stabbing himself wasn't the real change, from the get go Katakuri was big on this being a 1v1 with him and Luffy [1]. So it was obvious that interference on that caliber was not going to sit well with him. The real difference in approach from the beginning and the end was how he let Luffy get back up and power up, vs earlier on where he refused to let him power up. But again like I said, after the merienda, anything goes. Half the reason he was ending the fight ASAP earlier was to have his meal, Luffy powering up does not help his case in his head. With all of that out of the way, he wasn't worried about ending things as soon as possible, his priorities and focus shifted. This falls in line with Big Mom and how her kingdom had been run in the first place. Big Mom does not have this many strong individuals under her because they respect her as a Captain, Big Mom is their biological mother, these kids were given no choice to ever be a part of her crew to begin with. The day they were born they were already pushed into this storm. And this really showed throughout the arc, with a lot of the crews loyalty coming into question. Her way of ruling was her own downfall.

All of these reasons are why I believe Katakuri's battle was more believable (no I'm not talking about Luffy's endurance, but rather Kat's actions) than the contradictory decision making Doflamingo kept displaying during Dressrosa. Both Katakuri and Doflamingo have badass character designs and swagger, but at the end of the day as much as a special case Doflamingo prepped himself up to be, he ended up acting like your generic One Piece villain, no different than his predecessors (Croc, Enel etc). The execution behind that is the reason I enjoyed Katakuri more as a character, he was truly a breath of fresh air from the norm.
Yea, this was a well-written post and an in-depth analysis about Katakuri's character, making him actually not that one dimensional as people may think about him.

Both Doflamingo and Katakuri are great characters and yes, Doflamingo is clearly the better villain and his importance is clearly more relevant in the lore but Katakuri, as an antagonist, was different; not the usual "I'll not underestimate you but still I'll allow you to power up, laughing at you, showing mercy upon you and I'm still toying with you!" OP villain and thus, not one of the usual main threats which Luffy had to overcome.

Katakuri was simply a foe attempting to stand Luffy and Co on the way to flee from Big Mom's territory. Throughout the whole battle, Luffy had no enraged reasons to beat the crap out of him; he simply wanted to surpass an opponent far stronger than him.
And that's the reason why the outcome of this fight was totally different than the usual one in which Luffy usually overpowers his opponent and either defeats the villain with a barrage of attacks or with a single powerful blow, knocking them out miserably, destroying their entire pride but on Katakuri's case, both of them shortly knocked out each other with their most powerful blow, leaving an intense tension who could win the fight at the end.

And although Luffy was the winner, Katakuri's defeat didn't end him utterly fainting from the direct hit on a wasted shape; he actually stood up in front of Luffy to look at the opponent who defeated him and once again asked Luffy what his ambitions are! And then finally, he fell on his back, admitting his defeat, throwing away this entire fake hype about him being "perfect", Kata actually acknowledged his true character - a reckless glutton who actually enjoys his meals, giving no damn fuck about those who make fun of him. But that's him being in character in which a few people highly respect him for.
After Luffy and Co were successfully able to flee from Big Mom and Co, Brulee nailed Katakuri's entire character development by actually showing and still praising Katakuri to be a great brother despite losing his reputation as the "perfect" brother: accepting him whoever he is - resulting in Katakuri opening up towards his sister and actually asking her whether his opponent, Luffy, successfully fled away from here.

In conclusion, Doflamingo is clearly a far better villain but Katakuri was never really introduced to be a huge villain anyway - and this kindly makes it hard to compare both since Oda's intention for their characters were different. And in all honesty, I enjoyed Katakuri vs Luffy far more than DD vs Luffy, especially since Katakuri was still matching Luffy's new PU whereas DD was threated badly from another mode... The most interesting part of their fight was almost completely off paneled when DD used awakening against Bound Man. And the second round ended in a crushing result: Luffy knocked him out with a single, the most powerful, blow as soon as he went on Bound Man again. And utterly overpowering DD's strongest offensive and defensive technique doesn't make that better at all.

But at the end, those topics always highly rely on personal preferences; a part of the community rather wants to see a villain scheming, cunning, smart and an interesting mastermind and another part simply wants to see a refreshing role of an antagonist with his own character development during the fight.
Thus, I can simply say: let's agree to disagree. :D
 
S

Shura

#36
Yea, this was a well-written post and an in-depth analysis about Katakuri's character, making him actually not that one dimensional as people may think about him.

Both Doflamingo and Katakuri are great characters and yes, Doflamingo is clearly the better villain and his importance is clearly more relevant in the lore but Katakuri, as an antagonist, was different; not the usual "I'll not underestimate you but still I'll allow you to power up, laughing at you, showing mercy upon you and I'm still toying with you!" OP villain and thus, not one of the usual main threats which Luffy had to overcome.

Katakuri was simply a foe attempting to stand Luffy and Co on the way to flee from Big Mom's territory. Throughout the whole battle, Luffy had no enraged reasons to beat the crap out of him; he simply wanted to surpass an opponent far stronger than him.
And that's the reason why the outcome of this fight was totally different than the usual one in which Luffy usually overpowers his opponent and either defeats the villain with a barrage of attacks or with a single powerful blow, knocking them out miserably, destroying their entire pride but on Katakuri's case, both of them shortly knocked out each other with their most powerful blow, leaving an intense tension who could win the fight at the end.

And although Luffy was the winner, Katakuri's defeat didn't end him utterly fainting from the direct hit on a wasted shape; he actually stood up in front of Luffy to look at the opponent who defeated him and once again asked Luffy what his ambitions are! And then finally, he fell on his back, admitting his defeat, throwing away this entire fake hype about him being "perfect", Kata actually acknowledged his true character - a reckless glutton who actually enjoys his meals, giving no damn fuck about those who make fun of him. But that's him being in character in which a few people highly respect him for.
After Luffy and Co were successfully able to flee from Big Mom and Co, Brulee nailed Katakuri's entire character development by actually showing and still praising Katakuri to be a great brother despite losing his reputation as the "perfect" brother: accepting him whoever he is - resulting in Katakuri opening up towards his sister and actually asking her whether his opponent, Luffy, successfully fled away from here.

In conclusion, Doflamingo is clearly a far better villain but Katakuri was never really introduced to be a huge villain anyway - and this kindly makes it hard to compare both since Oda's intention for their characters were different. And in all honesty, I enjoyed Katakuri vs Luffy far more than DD vs Luffy, especially since Katakuri was still matching Luffy's new PU whereas DD was threated badly from another mode... The most interesting part of their fight was almost completely off paneled when DD used awakening against Bound Man. And the second round ended in a crushing result: Luffy knocked him out with a single, the most powerful, blow as soon as he went on Bound Man again. And utterly overpowering DD's strongest offensive and defensive technique doesn't make that better at all.

But at the end, those topics always highly rely on personal preferences; a part of the community rather wants to see a villain scheming, cunning, smart and an interesting mastermind and another part simply wants to see a refreshing role of an antagonist with his own character development during the fight.
Thus, I can simply say: let's agree to disagree. :D
You put everything I wanted to put in a better way and was more elaborate....:josad:
 
#38
Law stated that Doffy is so intelligent and cunning, that the will use the slightest opening to his advantage.

Not using awakening from the start but rather getting himself being pummeled by boundman was PIS. It's the same with Katakuri suffocating Luffy and then walking away, instead of immediately piercing him with Mogura to death.

Luffy has the plot shield on his side after all.
 
I

Inspector_Mu

#39
Like others said.
Kata feels fresh coz he bought new things

Doffy is nothing Crocodile copy and paste
Even his arc is just another Alabasta but failed verison. Drama was forced...
 
#40
Not using awakening from the start but rather getting himself being pummeled by boundman was PIS. It's the same with Katakuri suffocating Luffy and then walking away, instead of immediately piercing him with Mogura to death.
It was strange anyway; why're you letting your opponent the opportunity to beat your ass completely when you can easily match Bound Man's strength with awakening anyway? And why didn't DD cover his awakened threats with hardening to improve his AP and durability against Bound Man?
There were many moments in which DD acted totally unrealistic: refuses to use hardening strings on an opponent who recently punched your ass across the effing city but then he wastes his hardening strings on fodders?

DD's awakening should be powerful enough to keep Bound Man easily at bay, on the first round. It's just the case that Oda handled DD's skills very poorly and gave the readers the impressions of DD being blueno'ed...
 
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