Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler

[Elder Lee Hung]

Nice summary of the future arc. I believe in its most part except for

Spoiler

Renpa one. I think he just dies somewhere in the Chu but not in the battlefield. I haven’t seen him being mentioned in Chu invasion. I might be wrong though.

Also how long will it take for the story to get that far..?? We’re still in the first phase of Zhao invasion.

Spoiler

Irl, Renpa did not participate in the final war and his death is unknown.

In Kingdom though, Hara has flawlessly set up Renpa to face Shin in the final Chu War.

Renpa’s character arc is that he’s the last surviving Great General of the old era. He loves the battlefield, and is searching for an opponent who can make his blood boil like it once did. He literally cane out of retirement hoping that Kanki and Ousen would make him feel this again, but they couldn’t as their style of warfare didn’t excite him. I refuse to believe after Renpa’s incredibly emotional “you’ve all selfishly gone on ahead of me....” will culminate in Renpa dying of old age in a bed. Renpa should die with a Glaive in his hand, with his fire once again ignited by a worthy opponent, such as EOS Shin. That’s how he would want to go out.

As for Shin, look at his conversation with Renpa once again. Their entire conversation is, basically, about how Renpa tells Shin to surpass his generation of generals. Shin slaying Renpa and unifying China would both literally and metaphorically be the moment that Shin actually does this.

Hara has gone against history before, and I believe he’ll do this again.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Spoiler: Long historical spoiler talk

Well bro let's look at the Chu campaign historically:

- Ei Sei has to pick between Ousen (600,000) or Shin (200,000)
- Ei Sei picks Shin over Ousen
- Shin leads the Qin army, with Mouten to take Chu.
- They achieve victories initially, both of them scoring cities
- From then Shin goes after Yan
- After the Yan business is done (destroys a Yan army forcing them to surrender), he goes to try and meet up with Mouten. While he's doing that Shouheikun incites a rebellion in the city that Shin had conquered.
- While Shouheikun did that, the Tiger of Chu had been following Shin's army, and after 3 days and nights, they caught Shin's army by surprise. Then Shouheikun joined in from behind. With Shin losing important commanders of his army in this battle.
- Ei Sei then convinces Ousen to lead another attack against the Chu with the 600,000 plan he originally had, with Moubu/Shin/etc all under him.


People often based on the fact that Shin doesn't have much written about him historically say that he wasn't a big time general of that era. Yet, the decision to conquer the most powerful state out of them all was between Ousen (who historically has great achievements by this time) and Shin, not Moubu/Mouten/or anybody else.. but Shin. So why would such an important decision be left to somebody with no achievements, and why was such a man picked over Wang Jian (Ousen) who historically had produced the most results for Qin at this point in time? The only thing I can think of, is because history doesn't tell the whole story. But one thing we can be sure of based on the fact that it was between Li Xin & Wang Jian is that Shin at this point had become a great general that was on par with the likes of Ousen.

Is it a huge L to his credibility that he was taken down by Shouheikun (current head of Qin Military) & Tiger of Chu (possibly the top general in Chu)? Not to mention he did comeback under Ousen for the Chu conquest.

Not only that, but the very last campaign of the Conquest of China is done by Shin, with Qi (who surrenders without any or very little fight). This is despite him taking a L at Chu earlier.

I think based on the historical information we have available, it wouldn't be wrong to assume that he was the best general in China by the time China is conquered or atleast on par with the best general in China.


------------
Hara's possible scenario in the manga:

-> Hara is establishing a strong connection with Shin & Ousen right now, which to me implies hes building up for that Shin vs Ousen thing that's going down for the Chu campaign.
-> He did the Moubu vs SHK 1-shot, so we can assume he's gonna be building towards that scenario, so SHK's betrayal is coming.
-> Hi Shin Unit is being built up to be the most monsterous unit/army in China. A strategist that will rival the GGs, another GG with Kyoukai, and Shin himself, with powerful commanders like Naki (who is probably superior to all combtants that mouten or Ouhon have under them), then you add in the archer bros, monsters of strength like Ryuusen/Denyuu who're still advancing, elite swordsmen like Suugen (who got some hype as infantry commander, [the infantry should be atleast half of the unit] this arc), and so on.
This will probably give credibility to Shin requesting only 200k men, because the Hi Shin Unit is just overpowered as fuck by this point.
-> Then with Tiger of Chu's surprise attack on the HSU, you build it up so HSU is winning despite the surprise attack, then it took Shouheikun coming from behind to take the HSU out. (Shin vs Tiger Of Chu & Shouheikun, pheww boy that's gone be hype)

I mean I think even if we rely on just historical things we have, we can come up with an analysis that points to Li Xin achieving his dream of being the top general (assuming that was his actual dream or something). In manga-wise, I think Hara has good credible ways of making it happen by the end.

Spoiler: History spoiler

Are we just forgetting about Ousen's ambition?

Obviously Ousen will ask 600k men because he's done his homework and knows that Chu is though to crack.

The court will freak out thinking Ousen is planning a coup to take over Qin and will tell him to fuck off.

SHK who's the only one that could say "well, Ousen is right..." will remain silent because he's already having remorse over Chu.

Enter Shin the imbecile who thinks 200k are ok.

Massive L for the imbecile.

Though Hara will probably do his best to save Shin's reputation by putting the focus on SHK's betrayal by making it look like everyone in Shin's spot would've been fucked.

Ousen & Moubu to the rescue.

Done.

Hara is already giving Shin a big list of achievement in the story (he's got Houken, Rinko and CGR already under his belt, probably Gaimou is coming soon) and he's gonna give him other stuff, but he's gonna remain "only" an important pawn.

Ousen is the GOAT.

Here is what I’m thinking will happen, and yes I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately (partially what inspired me to draw Kou En lol).

Spoiler: EOS SPOILERS

Shin will enter Chu with an army of 200,000, and will get utterly shut stomped by a 500,000 Chu Army lead by Kou En (at this point, Shouheikun will be the King of Chu.)

From there, the Final Arc of Kingdom will have been set up to be an “Avengers Endgame” esque story, where Shin will return to Chu but this time under Ousen’s lead, and Shin will be the one to personally slay Kou En, making up for his prior loss (irl it is unrecorded to killed Kou En but he does die during the final invasion.)

During this battle, Shin also will slay Renpa which will complete both Renpa’s own character arc of “looking for his previous fire/the feeling of facing true Great General opponents” as well as Shin’s arc of “surpassing the old generals” which was established by Renpa.

Moubu slays SHK and Ousen gets the credit for all of this as he is the one leading the Qin. IRL, Ousen is by far considered a better General than Ri Shin, which is why I like the idea of Shin’s story ending this way, as he will debatably not be the greatest General in kingdom history, and I like this (though as he’ll personally slay Renpa and Kou En, a strong case will be able to be made for him.

Spoiler: Strong Spoilers

Interesting, i personally had it like maybe Hara will initially make Shin succeeding even with 200k men, he would be pushing back Tiger of Chou 500 k Army back. This way it won't affect Shin legibility sincr his decision to take 200k men would have succeeded if not for Shou Hei Kun betrayal and rebelling the already annexed cities right at Shin tail, that will hit Shin at a very critical moment. His army is perfectly caught up in Shou Hei Kun plan(like Ouki did in Riboku plan, unaware) and even than his decision of calling back his Army is what reduces to casualties by many times, instead of being completely annihilated. Hara could make it so, if that entire Army had been destroyed Qin could have never completed China Unification, so Shin pulling back his Men allowed em to have another chance in conquering Chu, and this time even Tho Shin doesn't lead he achieves big feats which allows him to gain the lost trust back and he is again allowed to lead a campaign in Qi(or was it Ou hon), and is awarded a medal in the end.

And Admiral lee, your version of Kou un overpowering Shin also makes sense, else he would loose his hype early on. So maybe Hi Shin Unit (200k men) would be overpowering Chu 500k, until Shou Hei Kun n Kou un hits Shin at same time.

But i still feel it doesn't completely adress the blunder of Shin being overconfident of only takin 200 k Men while Ousen wanted 600k Men, so it shouldn't be Army which cost Shin the war. At the same it also makes sense, he loses due to numbers. So in a way, either way it decredits Shin as a GG.

Also, when Ren Pa loses against Qin, he doesn't loose the credibility by ending the war when he was still winning, by realising he was checkmated he was able to save most of Wei soldiers. And even tho he had King favour(hence not executed), King was still forced to exile him.
In this case, Shin battle was lot more important, the entire plan of China unification depended on his compaign and it is said to be biggest set back Qin suffered. So normally El Sei would have been still forced to exile Shin if we can pardon the execution, but instead he is part of very next compaign and in next one as well, and in end is awarded. Hence i think Hara still decided Shin to be Protagonist of the show, together with loose end in his History, which allowed him to make a story arround him.

But the big question is, will Shin be able to stand back and become Best General even after this set back, and is it possible for Hara to still do it without changing the historical evidences?
Will slaying Big Generals good enough after this Big blunder, good enough that it becomes debatable who is better than Ousen n Shin?
If so, How will Hara achieves this, since Ou sen seems to much much better, he leads the compaign against Zhao, then one more State and also Chu.

Definitely not Moubu or Kanmei.

Chu people are prideful as fuck. Kanmei was calling himself the strongest man in China. He would never do it if Kouen could defeat him in a duel.

Why not? Do you think, we already seen the strongest of foes in Kingdom already?
Will EoS Mou Bu also face weaker foes than he did in Coalition Army?
Or his challenge only revolves arround him overcoming opponent strategies. Maybe,

But thn,
How will Shin surpass Mou Bu and became the Strongest GG than?

I wouldn't be surprised if young Chu 1000 men commander who already battled Tou, if even he rises to such a level of strength.

And Chu is bound to have more of these, Kou Un, whom Kinmou already worked as deputy to, could be one such General. Afterall Chu Generl already made it clear how hard it is to rise through in Ranks in Chu, and Kou. Un has been the Best Chu General for quite some time nw.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

I read the Historical spoilers you guys wrote and i am like - What the fuck...
First time reading them. That's crazy and really interesting.
One Question, Ousen wants to be a King of his own state (or something) Right? Was it IRL also the chase? And did he achieve that?

Welcome my man to the Dark Side, you can't help and read once you see bit of the spoilers, they just are so interesting. I also ended up readin all last month, tho part of me feels i shouldn't have.

Spoiler

Ousen in Manga so far, does hence he recruits strong Generals and even offered Riboku the same.
Maybe somehow it's part of his psychological battle with opponent, that is far from us normal folks. But in Historical spoilers, that doesn't seem to be the case. Instead he intentionally request Qin King luxuries so that the King may not fear Ousen running off with 600k men, his fear might have been just right since he stays for maybe like a year at Chu borders with this many Men and 600k is very big amount.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Spoiler

Renpa one. I think he just dies somewhere in the Chu but not in the battlefield. I haven’t seen him being mentioned in Chu invasion. I might be wrong though

.

Irl,

Spoiler

Renpa did not participate in the final war and his death is unknown.

In Kingdom though, Hara has flawlessly set up Renpa to face Shin in the final Chu War.

Renpa’s character arc is that he’s the last surviving Great General of the old era. He loves the battlefield, and is searching for an opponent who can make his blood boil like it once did. He literally cane out of retirement hoping that Kanki and Ousen would make him feel this again, but they couldn’t as their style of warfare didn’t excite him. I refuse to believe after Renpa’s incredibly emotional “you’ve all selfishly gone on ahead of me....” will culminate in Renpa dying of old age in a bed. Renpa should die with a Glaive in his hand, with his fire once again ignited by a worthy opponent, such as EOS Shin. That’s how he would want to go out

.

Yes he is dying on the Battlefield.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Spoiler: Strong Spoilers

Interesting, i personally had it like maybe Hara will initially make Shin succeeding even with 200k men, he would be pushing back Tiger of Chou 500 k Army back. This way it won't affect Shin legibility sincr his decision to take 200k men would have succeeded if not for Shou Hei Kun betrayal and rebelling the already annexed cities right at Shin tail, that will hit Shin at a very critical moment. His army is perfectly caught up in Shou Hei Kun plan(like Ouki did in Riboku plan, unaware) and even than his decision of calling back his Army is what reduces to casualties by many times, instead of being completely annihilated. Hara could make it so, if that entire Army had been destroyed Qin could have never completed China Unification, so Shin pulling back his Men allowed em to have another chance in conquering Chu, and this time even Tho Shin doesn't lead he achieves big feats which allows him to gain the lost trust back and he is again allowed to lead a campaign in Qi(or was it Ou hon), and is awarded a medal in the end.

And Admiral lee, your version of Kou un overpowering Shin also makes sense, else he would loose his hype early on. So maybe Hi Shin Unit (200k men) would be overpowering Chu 500k, until Shou Hei Kun n Kou un hits Shin at same time.

But i still feel it doesn't completely adress the blunder of Shin being overconfident of only takin 200 k Men while Ousen wanted 600k Men, so it shouldn't be Army which cost Shin the war. At the same it also makes sense, he loses due to numbers. So in a way, either way it decredits Shin as a GG.

Also, when Ren Pa loses against Qin, he doesn't loose the credibility by ending the war when he was still winning, by realising he was checkmated he was able to save most of Wei soldiers. And even tho he had King favour(hence not executed), King was still forced to exile him.
In this case, Shin battle was lot more important, the entire plan of China unification depended on his compaign and it is said to be biggest set back Qin suffered. So normally El Sei would have been still forced to exile Shin if we can pardon the execution, but instead he is part of very next compaign and in next one as well, and in end is awarded. Hence i think Hara still decided Shin to be Protagonist of the show, together with loose end in his History, which allowed him to make a story arround him.

But the big question is, will Shin be able to stand back and become Best General even after this set back, and is it possible for Hara to still do it without changing the historical evidences?
Will slaying Big Generals good enough after this Big blunder, good enough that it becomes debatable who is better than Ousen n Shin?
If so, How will Hara achieves this, since Ou sen seems to much much better, he leads the compaign against Zhao, then one more State and also Chu.

Why not? Do you think, we already seen the strongest of foes in Kingdom already?
Will EoS Mou Bu also face weaker foes than he did in Coalition Army?
Or his challenge only revolves arround him overcoming opponent strategies. Maybe,

But thn,
How will Shin surpass Mou Bu and became the Strongest GG than?

I wouldn't be surprised if young Chu 1000 men commander who already battled Tou, if even he rises to such a level of strength.

And Chu is bound to have more of these, Kou Un, whom Kinmou already worked as deputy to, could be one such General. Afterall Chu Generl already made it clear how hard it is to rise through in Ranks in Chu, and Kou. Un has been the Best Chu General for quite some time nw.

Spoiler: MORE EOS, ELONGATED

An elongated version of how I think Hara will write the final Chu war with reference to history:

So Shouheikun will ofc be the King of Chu, Hara has begun setting this up since Shunshinkun’s assassination and Kou Retsu’s death. Chu is craving strong leadership right now.

The Chief will lead Chu alongside Great General Kou En, who is debatably the most hyped General in the entire manga, with abilities above that of Kanmei. Kou En has stated that he believes Chu is not taking advantages of all of its natural resources, but this will change under King Shouheikun, who is a King rivaling Sei in strength, and who’s only mission in life now is to stop the Qin from unifying China.

So ofc, Sei consults both Ousen and Shin and goes with Shin’s plan, Shin leads 200K men into Chu and is essentially baited deep into Chu territory, before the combined strategies of Shouheikun and Kou En are suddenly executed, with Kou En revealing a 500,000 man Chu army that he had intentionally concealed, which utterly devastated Shin’s army and kills many commanders that we have been with for years in the manga (Denei, Denyuu, Garo, etc etc).

However Shin, who has been the type of General to face his opponents head on, uncharacteristically calls a retreat which ultimately prevents his army from being engulfed and exterminated in Chu.

Shin will have taken a devastating L at the height of his strength, after he has assisted in the overall unification of China, helping Ouhon conquer Wei among other feats.

Sei realizes that to defeat Chu, he will need the full might of Qin and the new 6 a Great Generals, so instead of demoting Shin, he persuades Ousen to lead an army of 600,000 lead by all of Qin’s New 6, with Ousen as their leader.

Ousen at first baits Shouheikun and Kou En by bringing his entire 600K army to the Chu border but then ordering all forces to hold. He deliberately makes Kou En and Shouheikun think that he intends to fight a long war of attrition, and a few weeks pass by as Kou En and SHK hold on place, contemplating how they should defend against a prolonged war with Qin.

Just as Shouheikun and Kou En begin to change formations to plan for a long, attrition style warfare, Ousen suddenly orders a full 600,000 man charge into all out war. While giving off the impression that he planned to fight a long-drawn out battle, Ousen was secretly training Qin troops behind the front lines to fight in Chu territory, his true intention being to utterly crush Chu with brute force the instant that they began moving their forces around in a way that that left them open to a brute force attack.

The result of this charge utterly devastated the Chu to such an extent that Shouheikun personally grabs a Glaive and heads to the battlefield. Ousen is using a two-pronged assault with Moubu and Shin at the center, Moubu’s unrivaled strength as well as Shin’s newfound determination to make up for his previous blunder makes them a devastating force that the Chu cannot stop. The ferocity of Shin’s assault is so incredible that Renpa personally picks up a Glaive and rides out to face Shin, and yeah. That happens.

After Shin slays Renpa, it is made clear that Shin’s target is none other than Kou En of Chu, the greatest in all China and the general who devastated him the year prior. Kou En is no fool and falls back to a Chu city (forgot the name) placing between he and Shin his strongest defensive formations, formations befitting the strongest tactical generals ever. The rest of the 6 GGs bar Moubu and Ousen himself join Shin and opt to slay Kou En, as finishing him should finish Chu.

With the help of Mouten, Ouhon, and either YTW or Kyoukai, these defensive formations are overcame with difficulty and Shin makes his way into the city where Kou En will make his last stand. Shin comes face to face with Kou En and to his shock, Kou En picks up a Glaive and proceeds to royally rock Shin’s world. On top of being an incredible tactician, Kou En’s martial strength is on par with the strongest warriors ever, befitting the Supreme Commander of Chu and the Conqueror of the East. Surpassing Kou En is something that could only mean that Shin could be considered the Greatest General of all time. So ofc after a brutal battle, where both Kou En and Shin recall their close brushes with death and their years of incredible battlefield experience, Shin slays Kou En which should effectively mark the end of the battle.

However, a large portion of the Chu army continues to fight, their strength now seemingly amplified as Shouheikun, the Last King of Chu, personally joins the battle. The strength of the Chu soldiers under their King, and the last hope of the state of Chu, rivals the same miraculous strength that Sei conjured from the people of Sai. It’s as if that same miraculous strength that saved Qin has now been turned against them, as Chu makes one last effort to save themselves from “destruction”.

Shouheikun tears through the battlefield with complete ease, intent to slay Ousen. Before he can reach him though, he comes face to face with Moubu. Read Hara ‘s SHK vs Moubu short for more details. Lol

Long story short, the strength summoned by SHK against the overwhelming odds of Moubu is terrifying, and after a grueling 1v1 duel, Moubu emerges the victor, which ends the battle for Chu.

China is now officially unified, though maybe Hara will establish that Ousen has spent years secretly taking steps to raise his own army against a unified Qin or some shit, and Ousen will be the one to lead the final Qi army against Shin, truly solidifying Shin as the GOAT as he defeats Ousen who defeated Chu and Zhao, but I doubt this will happen lol.

 

[RayanOO]

Spoiler: MORE EOS

An elongated version of how I think Hara will write the final Chu war with reference to history:

So Shouheikun will ofc be the King of Chu, Hara has begun setting this up since Shunshinkun’s assassination and Kou Retsu’s death. Chu is craving strong leadership right now.

The Chief will lead Chu alongside Great General Kou En, who is debatably the most hyped General in the entire manga, with abilities above that of Kanmei. Kou En has stated that he believes Chu is not taking advantages of all of its natural resources, but this will change under King Shouheikun, who is a King rivaling Sei in strength, and who’s only mission in life now is to stop the Qin from unifying China.

So ofc, Sei consults both Ousen and Shin and goes with Shin’s plan, Shin leads 200K men into Chu and is essentially baited deep into Chu territory, before the combined strategies of Shouheikun and Kou En are suddenly executed, with Kou En revealing a 500,000 man Chu army that he had intentionally concealed, which utterly devastated Shin’s army and kills many commanders that we have been with for years in the manga (Denei, Denyuu, Garo, etc etc).

However Shin, who uncharacteristically has been the type of General to face his opponents head on, calls a retreat which ultimately prevents his army from being engulfed and exterminated in Chu.

Shin will have taken a devastating L at the height of his strength, after he has assisted in the overall unification of China, helping Ouhon conquer Wei among other feats.

Sei realizes that to defeat Chu, he will need the full might of Qin and the new 6 a Great Generals, so instead of demoting Shin, he persuades Ousen to lead an army of 600,000 lead by all of Qin’s New 6, with Ousen as their leader.

Ousen at first baits Shouheikun and Kou En by bringing his entire 600K army to the Chu border but then ordering all forces to hold. He deliberately makes Kou En and Shouheikun think that he intends to fight a long war of attrition, and a few weeks pass by as Kou En and SHK hold on place, contemplating how they should defend against a prolonged war with Qin.

Just as Shouheikun and Kou En begin to change formations to plan for a long, attrition style warfare, Ousen suddenly orders a full 600,000 man charge into all out war. While giving off the impression that he planned to fight a long-drawn out battle, Ousen was secretly training Qin troops behind the front lines to fight in Chu territory, his true intention being to utterly crush Chu with brute force the instant that they began moving their forces around in a way that that left them open to a brute force attack.

The result of this charge utterly devastated the Chu to such an extent that Shouheikun personally grabs a Glaive and heads to the battlefield. Ousen is using a two-pronged assault with Moubu and Shin at the center, Moubu’s unrivaled strength as well as Shin’s newfound determination to make up for his previous blunder makes them a devastating force that the Chu cannot stop. The ferocity of Shin’s assault is so incredible that Renpa personally picks up a Glaive and rides out to face Shin, and yeah. That happens.

After Shin slays Renpa, it is made clear that Shin’s target is none other than Kou En of Chu, the greatest in all China and the general who devastated him the year prior. Kou En is no fool and falls back to a Chu city (forgot the name) placing between he and Shin his strongest defensive formations, formations befitting the strongest tactical generals ever. The rest of the 6 GGs bar Moubu and Ousen himself join Shin and opt to slay Kou En, as finishing him should finish Chu.

With the help of Mouten, Ouhon, and either YTW or Kyoukai, these defensive formations are overcame with difficulty and Shin makes his way into the city where Kou En will make his last stand. Shin comes face to face with Kou En and to his shock, Kou En picks up a Glaive and proceeds to royally rock Shin’s world. On top of being an incredible tactician, Kou En’s martial strength is on par with the strongest warriors ever, befitting the Supreme Commander of Chu and the Conqueror of the East. Surpassing Kou En is something that could only mean that Shin could be considered the Greatest General of all time. So ofc after a brutal battle, where both Kou En and Shin recall their close brushes with death and their years of incredible battlefield experience, Shin slays Kou En which should effectively mark the end of the battle.

However, a large portion of the Chu army continues to fight, their strength now seemingly amplified as Shouheikun, the Last King of Chu, personally joins the battle. The strength of the Chu soldiers under their King, and the last hope of the state of Chu, rivals the same miraculous strength that Sei conjured from the people of Sai. It’s as if that same miraculous strength that saved Qin has now been turned against them, as Chu makes one last effort to save themselves from “destruction”.

Shouheikun tears through the battlefield with complete ease, intent to slay Ousen. Before he can reach him though, he comes face to face with Moubu. Read Hara ‘s SHK vs Moubu short for more details. Lol

Long story short, the strength summoned by SHK against the overwhelming odds of Moubu is terrifying, and after a grueling 1v1 duel, Moubu emerges the victor, which ends the battle for Chu.

China is now officially unified, though maybe Hara will establish that Ousen has spent years secretly taking steps to raise his own army against a unified Qin or some shit, and Ousen will be the one to lead the final Qi army against Shin, truly solidifying Shin as the GOAT as he defeats Ousen who defeated Chu and Zhao, but I doubt this will happen lol.

I cannot help myself but I read all of the historical spoilers... I admit there are great things.

Spoiler

About Chu : what about Karin ? SHK took her down to take the Chu throne ?

And what about the great Tou ?

[spoiler/]

 

[Owl Ki]

When you are resisting the temptation presented by massive historical spoilers.

Spoiler

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

I cannot help myself but I read all of the historical spoilers... I admit there are great things.

Spoiler

About Chu : what about Karin ? SHK took her down to take the Chu throne ?

And what about the great Tou ?

[spoiler/]

I actually haven’t read anything on Karin lol. I don’t really know who she’d face EOS. Ousen effectively already surpassed her at Kankoku Pass, and Mouten is befitting...other opponents. Lol

 

[Blackbeard]

Basically the general impression of the fandom now:

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

When you are resisting the temptation presented by massive historical spoilers.

Spoiler

You’re a brave man lol. These historical spoilers are lit af.

 

[Xione]

Spoiler: History spoiler

Are we just forgetting about Ousen's ambition?

Obviously Ousen will ask 600k men because he's done his homework and knows that Chu is though to crack.

The court will freak out thinking Ousen is planning a coup to take over Qin and will tell him to fuck off.

SHK who's the only one that could say "well, Ousen is right..." will remain silent because he's already having remorse over Chu.

Enter Shin the imbecile who thinks 200k are ok.

Massive L for the imbecile.

Though Hara will probably do his best to save Shin's reputation by putting the focus on SHK's betrayal by making it look like everyone in Shin's spot would've been fucked.

Ousen & Moubu to the rescue.

Done.

Hara is already giving Shin a big list of achievement in the story (he's got Houken, Rinko and CGR already under his belt, probably Gaimou is coming soon) and he's gonna give him other stuff, but he's gonna remain "only" an important pawn.

Ousen is the GOAT.

Spoiler

That doesn't change the fact that the decision to invade Chu was ultimatly in the hands of Li Xin & Wang Jian, rather than Ouhon/Mouten/Moubu/Kyoukai/Yotanwa/etc, who all had historically great feats under them. Where as Li Xin at that point in history doesn't. One can assume, history ain't telling the whole story (which is to be expected as history on that era isn't exactly recorded to detail).

Ousen's reputation sure wasn't a huge concern when they were giving him armies to lead other invasions on different countries before. So highly doubt it would be a huge matter at this point in time, seeing as Ei Sei himself goes to Ousen to bring him back after HSU is killed off. Why then go to Ousen and not Moubu instead, if the concern of his coup was such a huge concern. I mean naturally when you give somebody 600,000 men you're gonna be in concerns, but when you're focusing on conquest of China.. you're looking for the best way.. And Shin with his 200,000 men for them was the best way.

See you're just putting it on Shin, it wasn't just Shin who was part of the 200k.. Mouten was with him. So you would have to call Mouten an imbecile as well. :P From what I recall, that 200k army was split into two with Shin & Mouten. Then when Shin goes to Yan, he has less than 200k with him as Mouten has part of that army.

Not to mention, Li Xin had no problems in the Chu campaign itself, they were taking Ws in Chu, the problem only happened AFTER he went after Yan (where he succeeded in destroying their army) and then cameback. Had he focused on just Chu, not went after Yan.. things could've been different as well.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Anyone thinking that this Tiger of Chu can beat Houken, Moubu or even Ouki in 1 vs 1?

I personally expect Kou En to be a real motherfucker, his overall martial strength being on par with Ouki or Moubu (not to be confused with brute strength where Kanmei and Moubu outclass him.

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Is it just me or I want this guy to be in Kingdom so bad?

Spoiler

This is Lu Bu from Record of Ragnarok btw:cheers:

This is his younger day.

This man mounted on a horse also

 

[Patryipe]

Spoiler

That doesn't change the fact that the decision to invade Chu was ultimatly in the hands of Li Xin & Wang Jian, rather than Ouhon/Mouten/Moubu/Kyoukai/Yotanwa/etc, who all had historically great feats under them. Where as Li Xin at that point in history doesn't. One can assume, history ain't telling the whole story (which is to be expected as history on that era isn't exactly recorded to detail).

Ousen's reputation sure wasn't a huge concern when they were giving him armies to lead other invasions on different countries before. So highly doubt it would be a huge matter at this point in time, seeing as Ei Sei himself goes to Ousen to bring him back after HSU is killed off. Why then go to Ousen and not Moubu instead, if the concern of his coup was such a huge concern. I mean naturally when you give somebody 600,000 men you're gonna be in concerns, but when you're focusing on conquest of China.. you're looking for the best way.. And Shin with his 200,000 men for them was the best way.

See you're just putting it on Shin, it wasn't just Shin who was part of the 200k.. Mouten was with him. So you would have to call Mouten an imbecile as well. :P From what I recall, that 200k army was split into two with Shin & Mouten. Then when Shin goes to Yan, he has less than 200k with him as Mouten has part of that army.

Not to mention, Li Xin had no problems in the Chu campaign itself, they were taking Ws in Chu, the problem only happened AFTER he went after Yan (where he succeeded in destroying their army) and then cameback. Had he focused on just Chu, not went after Yan.. things could've been different as well.

Spoiler: History Spoiler

I don't the deny the fact Shin is gonna get achievements lol, I dispute the idea that they will be enough to put him on Ousen's level.

History:
Ousen needs 600k
Shin is ok with 200k
When Ousen does indeed get the 600k he keeps asking the king for land and money to calm down the fear of rebellion

Manga:
Ousen introduction: this guy wants to become King, he's recruiting people 24/7 for "his kingdom"
In charge of the Zhao campaign against the almighty Riboku comes up with a strategy for the entire Gyou campaign on the spot that catches said Riboku pants down and leaves all of China speechless

So what scenario do you think is more likely from Hara?

1) "OMG Ousen is fucking us, he wants 600k to take over Qin, he's a traitor, let's ignore him altogether"
2) Well, Ousen wants 600k... You know he's the guy who wiped Zhao off the map right? On the other hand Ogiko says 200k is enough. Ogiko also defeated the great strategist Gaimou... Let's trust Ogiko.

So yeah, I'm definitely going with scenario #1.

Also it's true that Shin then got back to Chu for revenge but when Ousen took the field he wasn't even chosen as deputy. The honour went to Moubu.

 

[Xione]

Spoiler: History Spoiler

I don't the deny the fact Shin is gonna get achievements lol, I dispute the idea that they will be enough to put him on Ousen's level.

History:
Ousen needs 600k
Shin is ok with 200k
When Ousen does indeed get the 600k he keeps asking the king for land and money to calm down the fear of rebellion

Manga:
Ousen introduction: this guy wants to become King, he's recruiting people 24/7 for "his kingdom"
In charge of the Zhao campaign against the almighty Riboku comes up with a strategy for the entire Gyou campaign on the spot that catches said Riboku pants down and leaves all of China speechless

So what scenario do you think is more likely from Hara?

1) "OMG Ousen is fucking us, he wants 600k to take over Qin, he's a traitor, let's ignore him altogether"
2) Well, Ousen wants 600k... You know he's the guy who wiped Zhao off the map right? On the other hand Ogiko says 200k is enough. Ogiko also defeated the great strategist Gaimou... Let's trust Ogiko.

So yeah, I'm definitely going with scenario #1.

Also it's true that Shin then got back to Chu for revenge but when Ousen took the field he wasn't even chosen as deputy. The honour went to Moubu.

Spoiler

Yet again bro, the decision to invade the most powerful state of them all (outside of Qin) was in the hands of Li Xin & Wang Jian. Not Mouten, Ouhon, Kyoukai, Yotanwa, Moubu, etc who were all notable generals as well. The fact that it was between Li Xin & Wang Jian, can be implied as Li Xin being somebody who was on the level of Wang Jian, as Wang Jian went into retirement the moment Ei Sei picked Li Xin. And Li Xin (with Ouhon) is also the last person to officially finish the conquest of China with Qi. If we're talking about on level of Ousen, Ousen doesn't exactly stand in some mythical level, in the manga he already has Tou/Yotanwa/Moubu at his level.

You're right the manga did that in regards to Ousen, but.. what happened after that?
Manga also:
- Qin is on the verge of collapse with the Konoku gate nearing it's fall.. bam Ousen comes and saves the Kingdom.
- Ousen is put as the commander in chief of an army that's worth 200k men, while having no grand campaign prior to this one. On top of that the King of Qin has put faith in him to come up with whatever plan he can on spot to deal with the situations that might occur.

Hara is already building a bond of trust between Ei Sei - Ousen, with this very campaign. Why would this trust ever become in question, when Ousen is only going to continue stacking more and more accomplishments for the sake of Qin?

Now that's on Ousen, this is also the manga about Shin:
- Hi Shin Unit, is being set up as a monstrous unit by a good margin compared to rest of the units.
- Shin himself is being set up for greatness that's going to rival Ousen's. The most incredible individual in the Shukai plains outside of Ousen on the Qin side was who? None other than Shin himself.
- Ousen himself holds Shin in very high regards, even more so than his own Son.


So why do all this big hype for Shin, if the decision is just going to come down to "omg we can't trust Ousen, even though he saved the kingdom once and after he conquered dozens of areas for us", rather than "If it's Shin, then it should be possible to do it with 200k men, rather than wasting 600k"?



Yes Shin wasn't chosen as his deputy, partly it could be because he was broken (he lost many of his lieutenants and pretty much a huge portion of his unit). But one can interpret that he achieved great stuff in that campaign, which is why he was put in charge of an army again after that campaign, which completed the conquest of China.

 

[Patryipe]

Spoiler

Yet again bro, the decision to invade the most powerful state of them all (outside of Qin) was in the hands of Li Xin & Wang Jian. Not Mouten, Ouhon, Kyoukai, Yotanwa, Moubu, etc who were all notable generals as well. The fact that it was between Li Xin & Wang Jian, can be implied as Li Xin being somebody who was on the level of Wang Jian, as Wang Jian went into retirement the moment Ei Sei picked Li Xin. And Li Xin (with Ouhon) is also the last person to officially finish the conquest of China with Qi. If we're talking about on level of Ousen, Ousen doesn't exactly stand in some mythical level, in the manga he already has Tou/Yotanwa/Moubu at his level.

You're right the manga did that in regards to Ousen, but.. what happened after that?
Manga also:
- Qin is on the verge of collapse with the Konoku gate nearing it's fall.. bam Ousen comes and saves the Kingdom.
- Ousen is put as the commander in chief of an army that's worth 200k men, while having no grand campaign prior to this one. On top of that the King of Qin has put faith in him to come up with whatever plan he can on spot to deal with the situations that might occur.

Hara is already building a bond of trust between Ei Sei - Ousen, with this very campaign. Why would this trust ever become in question, when Ousen is only going to continue stacking more and more accomplishments for the sake of Qin?

Now that's on Ousen, this is also the manga about Shin:
- Hi Shin Unit, is being set up as a monstrous unit by a good margin compared to rest of the units.
- Shin himself is being set up for greatness that's going to rival Ousen's. The most incredible individual in the Shukai plains outside of Ousen on the Qin side was who? None other than Shin himself.
- Ousen himself holds Shin in very high regards, even more so than his own Son.


So why do all this big hype for Shin, if the decision is just going to come down to "omg we can't trust Ousen, even though he saved the kingdom once and after he conquered dozens of areas for us", rather than "If it's Shin, then it should be possible to do it with 200k men, rather than wasting 600k"?



Yes Shin wasn't chosen as his deputy, partly it could be because he was broken (he lost many of his lieutenants and pretty much a huge portion of his unit). But one can interpret that he achieved great stuff in that campaign, which is why he was put in charge of an army again after that campaign, which completed the conquest of China.

Spoiler: Yeah, history spoiler again

Clearly we're gonna have to wait and see who is right but I just find it hilariously convenient how you just ignore Ousen's ambition thinking the situation has already been settled when the dude was telling Riboku to join him to create a new Kingdom like 30 chapters ago leaving Zhao's speechless. Yes, I imagine the Qin's court will be delighted when they hear that.

They chose Ousen for this campaign because they had literally nobody else who could engage in a battle of wits against Riboku, they had no alternative.

Moubu - No explanation needed
Tou - Outplayed by Karin, clueless against GHM
Yotanwa - Didn't even realize that Ousen went to check Gyou
Kanki - Literally the only one who has kept up with Ousen (mostly), but he's a special situation guy. In the open fields of Shukai Plains Riboku would have defeated him, assuming he would even get that far.

Zhao's conquest goes under Ousen's belt, same goes for Chu
Wei goes to Ouhon
Han goes to Tou
Yan is basically a mix of Ousen, Shin and Ouhon
Qi just surrended w/o fighting

So yeah Shin can participate in all the wars and collect general heads as much as he wants, Ousen will be there to take the first prize as Commander in Chief.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

They chose Ousen for this campaign because they had literally nobody else who could engage in a battle of wits against Riboku, they had no alternative.

They had someone better, Shou Hei Kun. But he is Chief of Qin Military.


Also you also need to factor in, Yo Tan Wa isn't aware of Ousen personality, unlike Kanki who has worked alongside him as Deputies of Mou Gou for years, he knows Ousen doesn't battle the wars he can't win, hence will first confirm the chances of winning the battle. But yeah, i am not sayin Yo Tan Wa can take on Riboku in battle of wits, or same for Kanki. In future, Mou Ten or maybe also Ou hon are the only ones that can develop into such Generals, they all have their Qualities.

 

[Patryipe]

Spoiler

They had someone better, Shou Hei Kun. But he is Chief of Qin Military.


Also you also need to factor in, Yo Tan Wa isn't aware of Ousen personality, unlike Kanki who has worked alongside him as Deputies of Mou Gou for years, he knows Ousen doesn't battle the wars he can't win, hence will first confirm the chances of winning the battle. But yeah, i am not sayin Yo Tan Wa can take on Riboku in battle of wits, or same for Kanki. In future, Mou Ten or maybe also Ou hon are the only ones that can develop into such Generals, they all have their Qualities.

Spoiler

That's really detable considering it took one year for SHK to come up with a workable plan that lasted for a couple of days while he was being helped by 3 other people.

Anyway, enough on my side. I have said my opinion on the Chu campaign, we'll see how it goes.

 

[Greenbeard]

Read Kingdom again from Coalition arc to the current one!! No matter how many times I read, I don't get bored at all!!
I really like Rou Ai arc more this time when compared to the last re read!!

 

[Greenbeard]

The stakes in this arc is at all time high!! I was fully able to grasp the tension in both the armies when I re read it!!
Minus points in this arc upto now for me is the ending of YTW fight( Bajio jumping over a huge canyon and Shin vs Houken fight). Compared to YTW fight, Shin vs Houken felt much more unrealistic considering Shin's injury and lack of strength when he faced Houken...