Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

bruh imagine being this ideologically driven where no one on your own side is allowed to criticize you

anyways I for one agree with the tiktok ban

I understand that people on the conservative and confusionnist side don't get that, but attacking a political ally in front of the opposition in leftism is considered as a mistake. Not because we are the political side that don't want critics on ourselves (we are actually the side that criticized itself the most, you should see a battle between anarchist, troskysts, lenninist and reformists..) but because we have less power in society. Therefore attacking ourselves when we need to be united is destroying our fight.

We wouldnt be the only species of primates with sexual dimorphism

Yup I agree, other species can have a social behaviors that impact their biology.

 

[Roo]

I understand that people on the conservative and confusionnist side don't get that, but attacking a political ally in front of the opposition in leftism is considered as a mistake. Not because we are the political side that don't want critics on ourselves (we are actually the side that criticized itself the most, you should see a battle between anarchist, troskysts, lenninist and reformists..) but because we have less power in society. Therefore attacking ourselves when we need to be united is destroying our fight.

if you can't handle disagreements from your own side your ideas aren't solid enough to stand against the other side

plus what you're asking for is echo chambers

 

[Logiko]

if you can't handle disagreements from your own side your ideas aren't solid enough to stand against the other side

plus what you're asking for is echo chambers

You didn't understand - and I'm not surprised - Its not about disagreements, its about unity in front of oppression. If you knew leftism, you would know that this is the political side with the most disagreement possible, people actually went to war because of those disagreements. What I'm talking about here is the duty to stay united in front of oppression.

Also if you are equating an environment without conservatism or BS far right or liberal ideologies to an echo chamber, you understood nothing. We just want to get rid of oppression to get to the real debate. Right now, your side is preventing us from doing that.

 

[Roo]

You didn't understand - and I'm not surprised - Its not about disagreements, its about unity in front of oppression. If you knew leftism, you would know that this is the political side with the most disagreement possible, people actually went to war because of those disagreements.

"If you knew this"

bruh I was literally teaching you about communism a few months back lol. I 100% know way more about communism in theory, practice and historically than you.

Anyways my point is that you want blind loyalty and that is just not productive to a good coalition. Let's say for example a loud minority of leftist think that actually murdering right wingers is a good idea, and start voicing that opinion. Are leftist not allowed to tell them to stfu or distance themselves from it?

 

[Logiko]

"If you knew this"

bruh I was literally teaching you about communism a few months back lol. I 100% know way more about communism in theory, practice and historically than you.

I'm not debating the fact that you know more, I'm saying that if you have knowledge, you are really doing a poor job at showing it

Anyways my point is that you want blind loyalty and that is just not productive to a good coalition

Again no. I don't care about loyalty, what I want is unity. Against confusionnist for example.

Are leftist not allowed to tell them to stfu or distance themselves from it?

Of course, but we are not talking here about a political discourse, we are talking about going against oppression and murder.

Here you are equating my desire for unity between people with different political leftist viewpoint with a desire of unity between political militants and murderers... that's nonsence.

 

[Roo]

I'm not debating the fact that you know more, I'm saying that if you have knowledge, you are really doing a poor job at showing it




Again no. I don't care about loyalty, what I want is unity. Against confusionnist for example.


Of course, but we are not talking here about a political discourse, we are talking about going against oppression.

Here you are equating my desire for unity between people with different political leftist viewpoint with a desire of unity between political militants and murderers... that's nonsence.

From what I’ve seen Toby mainly critiques how you act, not your ideas. That’s why I made the comparison, rhetoric works.

anways comparisons are not “equating” I can compare apples and oranges because they’re different,

 

[Zenos7]

Yup I agree, other species can have a social behaviors that impact their biology.

Or the other way around

 

[Logiko]

anways comparisons are not “equating”

Comparison are a way to equate subjects when the goal is to find similarities yes.

Its actually one of the tool of confusionnists, comparing far leftism with far rightism as if there was any comparison to be made.

From what I’ve seen Toby mainly critiques how you act, not your ideas.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in the way I act. I've stated since the beginning that I'm not here to discuss but to explain. This does not mean that I'm always right so when I'm wrong, I'm aknowlodging it. For example (to stay on the subject), I was wrong to separate socialism and communism last year.

While I can understand that the way I talk can be frustrating (since I'm mostly in the position of explanation and therefore authority), people who think they are morally superior because they are not doing what I do are delulu .

Or the other way around

Both actually. This is a complexe phenomenon. In this case, the dismophism can be explained by the social behavior of animals (including human) although I might need to find some researches on the subject, I'm not sure of what I'm stating here.

 

[Uncle Van]

If you want to change society, you can start by having atleast a basic understanding of history, culture, and how a society functions. I highly doubt dedicating your lives to a random ass forum about a Japanese comic book in the corner of the internet is gonna make a difference.

 

[Zenos7]

Both actually. This is a complexe phenomenon. In this case, the dismophism can be explained by the social behavior of animals (including human) although I might need to find some researches on the subject, I'm not sure of what I'm stating here.

Orangutans are solitary animals and have fairly extreme sexual dimorphism

There are also animals like elephants where their structure is female-dominated

But well just to make sure: are you suggesting gorillas and chimpanzees systemically oppress their females to the point of them being physically weaker and smaller?

 

[Logiko]

you can start by having atleast a basic understanding of history, culture, and how a society functions.

> Indeed: Start here (its only the beginning)

I highly doubt dedicating your lives to a random ass forum about a Japanese comic book in the corner of the internet is gonna make a difference.

Its not really about making a difference rather than making a point.

But well just to make sure: are you suggesting gorillas and chimpanzees systemically oppress their females to the point of them being physically weaker and smaller?

No, I'm not suggesting that gorillas and chimpanzees systematically oppress their female, I'm only trying to show a reason why it could have happened the way it happened in human.

I'm only trying to see if the oppressive power structure that is patriarchy had an effect on the biological evolution of women. I'm not judging social selection over millenia.

 

[Ravagerblade]

I understand that people on the conservative and confusionnist side don't get that, but attacking a political ally in front of the opposition in leftism is considered as a mistake. Not because we are the political side that don't want critics on ourselves (we are actually the side that criticized itself the most, you should see a battle between anarchist, troskysts, lenninist and reformists..) but because we have less power in society. Therefore attacking ourselves when we need to be united is destroying our fight.



Yup I agree, other species can have a social behaviors that impact their biology.

People on the "same side " can have different opinions and viewpoints, otherwise you just have a bland sort and an Echo Chamber. Without differences, it becomes stagnant, Aren't you a proponent of diversity, well that includes diversity of thought no?

 

[Zenos7]

> Indeed: Start here (its only the beginning)



Its not really about making a difference rather than making a point.



No, I'm not suggesting that gorillas and chimpanzees systematically oppress their female, I'm only trying to show a reason why it could have happened the way it happened in human.

I'm only trying to see if the oppressive power structure that is patriarchy had an effect on the biological evolution of women. I'm not judging social selection over millenia.

Ye I doubt it. Considering its the same for all great apes and most other bigger primate species, its infinitely more likely that the biological differences caused the oppression imho

Post automatically merged: Apr 28, 2024

, Aren't you a proponents of diversity, well that includes diversity of thought no?

The diversity that matters the most

 

[Logiko]

People on the "same side " can have different opinions and viewpoints, otherwise you just have a bland sort and an Echo Chamber.

Indeed, that's what I'm explained earlier mate. In the left there are A LOT of political movements.

Aren't you a proponent of diversity, well that includes diversity of thought no?

Of course (in the left, I don't care about the other oppressive side). That's what I explained. But you need to understand that I'm not talking about diversity of opinion here, I'm talking about unity in front of oppression.

In that instance, the left - that can be divided - needs to create a block to fight the oppression correctly, even if they are divided. Simply because without that, we won't have enough power. Bigotry and capitalism are still dominating society.

That's why I asked Toby to calm the hostility and stop equating me with some far rightist like yourself. Simply because that's a political error.

Ye I doubt it. Considering its the same for all great apes and most other bigger primate species, its infinitely more likely that the biological differences caused the oppression imho

I wouldn't be so sure mate

I'll try to find some article on the subject later.

 

[Zenos7]

Indeed, that's what I'm explained earlier mate. In the left there are A LOT of political movements.


Of course (in the left, I don't care about the other oppressive side). That's what I explained. But you need to understand that I'm not talking about diversity of opinion here, I'm talking about unity in front of oppression.

In that instance, the left - that can be divided - needs to create a block to fight the oppression correctly, even if they are divided. Simply because without that, we won't have enough power. Bigotry and capitalism are still dominating society.

That's why I asked Toby to calm the hostility and stop equating me with some far rightist like yourself. Simply because that's a political error.


I wouldn't be so sure mate

I'll try to find some article on the subject later.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9156798/

"However, females likely increased in stature relative to males in order to successfully deliver large-brained neonates through a bipedally-adapted pelvis."

 

[Mathias]

I'm not a specialist of the subject but I think we have found evidences of women having the same body structure as men in the pre-neolothic era. Although you might be right, I don't think its because of malnourishment but rather because of the system and structure of power that pushed men to selectively choose women with less and less hight. (but again, I'm not a specialist on the subject, this might be a big error I'm making)

Basically, men preferred smaller women ? And women preferred taller men ? Did they all invent patriarchy ?

I'll try to find some ressources in french for you to understand the problem, because (at least in France) there is really a problem with psychoanalysis.

I mean I get that they're corrupt, lol

Non binarity is indeed a difficult subject to understand when we are not familiar with it, it took me a few years to graps it. I suggest you watch this video of Anthony Padilla where he speaks with non binary people. If that's not enough, tell me, I might need to add something more indeed, I really didn't spend to much time on the subject. So there is very few content in the library about the subject.

I watched it. One of the beliefs against non-binarity is the representation that there is a girl and boy in every one of us. That we're all balancing more toward one than the other. And that you can't exactly sit your ass in the middle of the line. What would you say about that ? Would you simply say "okay true but you can sit on the line" ?

But you do agree with the points made tho ? I mean, you understand the purpose of those videos (even if you don't like video essay) ?

I can somewhat agree sometimes. Not on every cases of examples used though. It's not about videos "essays" but about how some of the videos are made haha.

I once got this girl who told me "watch this video that made me a feminist". And I'm like, yeh but it's one video with a cringe-worthy edit and melodramatic song with a black-and-white image... I'd rather get something "different".

Also her video had a lot of stuff that "are said to women by society" as if nothing was said to dudes...

Well... no one is doing that so...

You sure no one ever did that ?

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

I'm not a specialist of the subject but I think we have found evidences of women having the same body structure as men in the pre-neolothic era. Although you might be right, I don't think its because of malnourishment but rather because of the system and structure of power that pushed men to selectively choose women with less and less hight. (but again, I'm not a specialist on the subject, this might be a big error I'm making)

my fluffy conejo enjoyer, are you aware of the fact that there are matriarchal, matrilinear and matrilocal societies across the globe who do NOT have a tradition of oppressing women? Many animals have sexual dimorphism, in insects

I'm sure we can make a good forum out of this one

no

I'm only trying to see if the oppressive power structure that is patriarchy had an effect on the biological evolution of women. I'm not judging social selection over millenia.

Please inform yourself

 

[Zenos7]

Many animals have sexual dimorphism, in insects

Across the board in birds, reptiles, fish, plenty mammals.

Its not exactly a rare occurence.

And its not always males who are bigger and stronger. In some snakes and all mantises for example, the females are bigger

 

[Logiko]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9156798/

"However, females likely increased in stature relative to males in order to successfully deliver large-brained neonates through a bipedally-adapted pelvis."

Interesting..

So first thing first : Its Evolutionnary psychology. So I need to put a red flag here and ask for caution.

Now.. I've made a little bit of research to understand a little more about the subject and the studies of those author and they seems to contradict the basic evolutionnary psychology prime premisses.. which is actually a good thing.

In reality it seems like their work are tending to critic the premisses of their own field (which is again a good things) about the myth of the universal waste hips ratio attraction and indicate that the social and environmental context is actually prevalent is the development of women's bodies.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1474704918800063

In other words, the distribution of ressources affected their body.

We can also see here : https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aao3893 That women from the early neolithic through the bronze age to the iron age may have been tanking a huge agricultural load of work compared their male counterparts. Women were actual athletes back in the day. The question is .. how did this changed ?

Their is no definitive consensus answer on the subject (at least I've not seen much) but you can definitely understand how the distribution of ressources and redistribution of the work force may have played a role here. And by redistribution I'm questionning who had the ressources and who distributed the work forces. Those two power were definitely not given to women in the majority of the world.

Hence why I talk about patriarchy (but we could also talk about the prehistoric stages of capitalism)

Basically, men preferred smaller women ? And women preferred taller men ? Did they all invent patriarchy ?

Patriarchy is not something that was really invented. Its more of a product of the nature of early neolithic societies and what some might have seen as a needs to secure the power to men instead of women.

I mean I get that they're corrupt, lol

I wouldn't say corrupt, but definitely toxic for the mental health status in France, yea

What would you say about that ?

I believe that gender "being a boy" or "being a girl" is a social construction and a spectre. So I believe that its completely possible to be non binary. Also, no binary doesn't necessaraly mean being "in the middle". In can also be in all places of the spectres.

I do understand those who want to identify as such but in absolute, I believe that gender is just a social construct that we will get rid of in a few centuries. I believe that "being a boy" and "being a girl" are gender ideals and that actually no one is truly a boy or a girl and that everyone has attributes of both side. For example, one of my biggest traits of personnality as an individual is that I will cry extremely easilly in front of things I'm empathic about and if no one had stopped me when I was young, I would definitely wear pantyhose right now and maybe heels right now. Those things are just natural for me and I do not feel ashamed to say that.

Now, its also important to understand that I was raised and feel currently like a man, so this is my identity. It COULD change in the future, but I need to understand the nature of my education which was like most men, patriarcal.

I once got this girl who told me "watch this video that made me a feminist". And I'm like, yeh but it's one video with a cringe-worthy edit and melodramatic song with a black-and-white image... I'd rather get something "different".

I can understand that, maybe its just not the content for you

Also her video had a lot of stuff that "are said to women by society" as if nothing was said to dudes...

What you say is true but we need to understand that we should not equate the two. What is "said" to women by society is a lot more oppressive than what is said to men.

You sure no one ever did that ?

I don't remember seeing feminist content shared on this forum no. But maybe I just didn't see it.

my fluffy conejo enjoyer, are you aware of the fact that there are matriarchal, matrilinear and matrilocal societies across the globe who do NOT have a tradition of oppressing women? Many animals have sexual dimorphism, in insects

Yes, I'm aware don't worry.

no

Awww Don't be so pessimistic

Please inform yourself

Actually I did and my researchs are leading me to believe that it is in fact the case and that patriarchy did play a role in the biological change in women's body. Through distribution of ressources and labor mainly.

And its not always males who are bigger and stronger. In some snakes and all mantises for example, the females are bigger

No one is denying that.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

I don’t understand why people want to move from the west to Israel.

I was talking to a friend the other day. She told me she was planning to move to Israel. Thing is tho, she’s convert like me. My friend is a part of the conservative denomination, which while being more traditional than Reform Judaism, their conversions still aren’t seen as valid by the orthodoxy.

Meaning that while she could get Israeli citizenship under law of return, she wouldn’t be classified as Jewish in israel unless she got an Orthodox conversion.

I think she told me she felt a connection to israel or something. And I know she has some friends there.

But I just find it so odd that people would move to a country that doesn’t even respect who they are.

Post automatically merged: Apr 29, 2024

My take on it is that life in America is far better than life in Israel.

Israel has been perpetually at war with its neighbors for nearly a century. The idea that Jews are somehow safe there is insane. October 7th proved that.

Yeah there’s antisemitism in America. But also, almost every synagogue I’ve been to has had police protection, so I’ve never felt unsafe practicing my religion.

From what I’ve read israel seems objectively worse than the west. imagine being forced to serve in the military when you are only a teenager. That’s not something I’d want for my kids or grandkids.

I guess it comes from this idea that living in Israel is a mitzvah and so is helping the Zionist project. But that’s just not my take on it.

I think if G-d wanted Jews to return to Israel, then he’d send the Messiah.