Current Events Has Zoro Been Nerfed All Along?

(Poll questions are in the OP)

  • Q1: Yes

  • Q1: No

  • Q2: Yes

  • Q2: No

  • Q3: Yes

  • Q3: No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Doggo

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#21
I have a few considerations about this thread.
I'm gonna talk as a Dungeon Master and how I would conduct this "boss battle".

First, having to divide your atention into attacking and defending someone else indeed "nerfs" you. But, as a team, things get a little more tricky.
If you have a party consisting of a Warrior devoted to draw attacks from the enemy and protect his allies, a Rogue dedicated to sneak around the battlefield, dealing huge chunks of damage with sneak attacks, you could say the "warrior" is "nerfed"? Well, yes. Does it mean it would be better if the Warrior was full offensive mode? No exactly. Depends on who is able to deal more damage. If the Rogue is capable of dealing more damage than the warrior, then they benefit way more with the Warrior being "nerfed".
If all 5 SN's decided to go full attack mode and not care about the others at all, BELIEVE ME when I say that Big Mom would have killed all of them already.
The MOMENT they ALL decided to go for Kaido, BM would not stay still. She would send dozens of lighting strikes and flame attacks towards them.
If they are not covering for each other, it is EXTREMELY easy to pick them off. And only the power of miraculous dice rolls would save them.

Having said that, Oda IS NOT a tactical fighting writer. His fights are extremely simple.
Try to watch an anime called World Trigger. There, the fights are waaaaay more tactical. There are strategies, improvises, payoffs, etc.
One Piece at best has some kind of "gimmick". Only tactical fighters we have are Nami and Usopp.

Zoro had 3 clean hits on Kaido.
1- the first one alongside Killer. There was nothing to distract him there. kaido was not throwing an attack back at him, nor was Big Mom.
2- The flying slash. He blocked the boro breath, then immediately went for the counter attack. Kaido just WATCHED. Big Mom tells him to dodge, he dodges. Again nothing being launched to hinder Zoro's attack. Big Mom strikes him down AFTER it.
3- the tatsumaki. Luffy got swallowed, and Zoro had to get him free. He makes a clean named attack against Kaido and makes him spit Luffy. This one you can argue Kaido's tornado hindered the attack a little, but considering he effectively countered them, it's kinda not feasible to think that.

Team fights do not follow the same logic as a solo fight. Although there are scenarios where having a teammate can actually hold you back, it doesn't look like the case here, since Zoro is still getting his clean hits on Kaido. He didn't need to tank anything for Luffy. He countered the flames. He received BM's lighting attack on his own.
So no, he is not nerfed. In fact, he was "buffed" for that flying slash attack, due to Law's ability to teleport him.
But, in general, he is exactly what he is.

It's better not to take this "nerfed" or "buffed" thing too seriously, because the fact that BM and Kaido are getting outnumbered could also be considered a "nerf" to both of them. Just enjoy the team effort. Once the fight is over, we can analyze everything and try to point out who contributed more.
But let me just say one more thing. If Law doesnt throw a single attack moving forward, and just keeps teleporting everyone around the battlefield, I would 100% consider him the MVP of the fight. Battlefield control is EXTREMELY important, and his ability provides exactly that. But it is Oda. They will just throw a bunch of attacks until the enemies are down.
 

Cinera

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#22
I have a few considerations about this thread.
I'm gonna talk as a Dungeon Master and how I would conduct this "boss battle".

First, having to divide your atention into attacking and defending someone else indeed "nerfs" you. But, as a team, things get a little more tricky.
If you have a party consisting of a Warrior devoted to draw attacks from the enemy and protect his allies, a Rogue dedicated to sneak around the battlefield, dealing huge chunks of damage with sneak attacks, you could say the "warrior" is "nerfed"? Well, yes. Does it mean it would be better if the Warrior was full offensive mode? No exactly. Depends on who is able to deal more damage. If the Rogue is capable of dealing more damage than the warrior, then they benefit way more with the Warrior being "nerfed".
If all 5 SN's decided to go full attack mode and not care about the others at all, BELIEVE ME when I say that Big Mom would have killed all of them already.
The MOMENT they ALL decided to go for Kaido, BM would not stay still. She would send dozens of lighting strikes and flame attacks towards them.
If they are not covering for each other, it is EXTREMELY easy to pick them off. And only the power of miraculous dice rolls would save them.

Having said that, Oda IS NOT a tactical fighting writer. His fights are extremely simple.
Try to watch an anime called World Trigger. There, the fights are waaaaay more tactical. There are strategies, improvises, payoffs, etc.
One Piece at best has some kind of "gimmick". Only tactical fighters we have are Nami and Usopp.

Zoro had 3 clean hits on Kaido.
1- the first one alongside Killer. There was nothing to distract him there. kaido was not throwing an attack back at him, nor was Big Mom.
2- The flying slash. He blocked the boro breath, then immediately went for the counter attack. Kaido just WATCHED. Big Mom tells him to dodge, he dodges. Again nothing being launched to hinder Zoro's attack. Big Mom strikes him down AFTER it.
3- the tatsumaki. Luffy got swallowed, and Zoro had to get him free. He makes a clean named attack against Kaido and makes him spit Luffy. This one you can argue Kaido's tornado hindered the attack a little, but considering he effectively countered them, it's kinda not feasible to think that.

Team fights do not follow the same logic as a solo fight. Although there are scenarios where having a teammate can actually hold you back, it doesn't look like the case here, since Zoro is still getting his clean hits on Kaido. He didn't need to tank anything for Luffy. He countered the flames. He received BM's lighting attack on his own.
So no, he is not nerfed. In fact, he was "buffed" for that flying slash attack, due to Law's ability to teleport him.
But, in general, he is exactly what he is.

It's better not to take this "nerfed" or "buffed" thing too seriously, because the fact that BM and Kaido are getting outnumbered could also be considered a "nerf" to both of them. Just enjoy the team effort. Once the fight is over, we can analyze everything and try to point out who contributed more.
But let me just say one more thing. If Law doesnt throw a single attack moving forward, and just keeps teleporting everyone around the battlefield, I would 100% consider him the MVP of the fight. Battlefield control is EXTREMELY important, and his ability provides exactly that. But it is Oda. They will just throw a bunch of attacks until the enemies are down.
Zoro was nerfed in the sense that he was sacrificing offensive opportunities to defend Luffy instead.
A Nerfed Zoro
Zoro has been nerfed, in the sense that he's ignored offensive opportunities to focus on protecting Luffy:
  • He only launched Hiryuu Kaen as a counter to Kaido's Boro Breath.
  • He only launched Kokujo Ou Tatsumaki to rescue Luffy after Kaido had chomped on him.
  • He ignored the challenge Kaido directly posed at him with Tatsumaki: Gale of Destruction.

Kaido challenged Zoro directly with Tatsumaki: Gale of Destruction. Zoro could have tried to counter that attack. Instead, he completely ignored Kaido's challenge and ran away with Luffy. This was an offensive opportunity that Zoro directly let go because he was babysitting Luffy.

How many other attacks has Zoro not taken because he was so devoted to protecting Luffy? How many more opportunities has he let go?

The opportunity cost of protecting Luffy has been Zoro sacrificing several opportunities to attack Mama or Kaido.

Even aside from the counterfactual attacks that Zoro let go, a majority of the other attacks he launched were only launched when protecting Luffy:
  • Hiryuu Kaen
    • It was launched as a counter to the Boro Breath Kaido used to try and take down Luffy.
  • Kokujo Ou Tatsumaki
    • It was launched to rescue Luffy from being eaten by Kaido.
The only attack Zoro took independently from his role of protecting Luffy was his initial Rengoku Oni Giri.

Had Zoro not needed to save Luffy those two times, he would probably have never launched those attacks. Zoro has mainly gone on the offensive when it was necessary to rescue Luffy. This reiterates again, that Zoro's top priority has been protecting Luffy.


Interlude: Yamato
That Zoro's devotion to protecting Luffy is a significant hindrance to his combat abilities has been lampshaded during Yamato's confrontation with Sasaki and his troops:


Sasaki questions if Yamato sees him as someone so weak that she believes she can beat him while protecting Momonosuke and Shinobu. He's insulted that she believes she can beat him while her combat abilities are so restricted.

Protecting Luffy has not encumbered Zoro as much as protecting Momonosuke and Shinobu encumbered Yamato, but it was still a significant restriction on the combat ability Zoro could bring to bear against the two Yonkou.

Most of the other Supernova have defeating Kaido and/or Big Mom as their top priority. Zoro alone has made protecting another Supernova his top priority. This is a significant restriction that only Zoro is operating under.


Conclusions
Zoro's exceptional focus on protecting Luffy seems to have caused him to forego some offensive opportunities. This is the main sense in which Zoro was nerfed.
Zoro landed Hiryuu Kaen and Kokujo Ou Tatsumaki cleanly, but he only landed them because he was trying to rescue Luffy. If he did not need to rescue Luffy, he wouldn't have launched those attacks.

I.e. Zoro completely ignored trying to fight Kaido head on and only focused on protecting Luffy.

We see this most clearly when Kaido challenges Zoro with Tatsumaki: Gale of Destruction:
Kaido laughed in joy that Zoro could counter his Tatsumaki with another Tatsumaki:
Spoiler

He challenged Zoro by unleashing a (presumably) even more powerful attack: "Tatsumaki: Gale of Destruction":
Spoiler

However, Zoro ignored Kaido's challenge and focused on dodging the wind slashes while carrying Luffy:
Spoiler
Zoro ignores Kaido's challenge and instead runs away while carrying Luffy. This was a direct opportunity to meet Kaido's challenge and counterattack, but Zoro chose to run away because he needed to protect Luffy.
 
#23
Conclusion
Zoro has been exceptionally devoted to protecting Luffy as his bodyguard. As such, Zoro has never mounted an independent offensive (aside from his initial Rengoku Oni Giri). He's been focusing on defense this whole time. This may have restricted the offensive capabilities he could bring to bear. An example of this is when Zoro ignored Kaido's challenge with Tatsumaki: Gale of Destruction so he could keep Luffy safe.
Your thread is well done as usual
Yes, Zoro has been pretty much occupied with Luffy and "bodyguard" is probably the proper word to describe it. This, as you said, has influenced the way he acted in some occasions but I don't agree on some points you made:

- In Chapter 1001, his 'step-in' to cut Prometheus didn't prejudice any possible offensive action. He acted like a right hand man, like he's supposed to do
So, here, he wasn't restricted in any way, just proceeded to give his introduction attack at Kaido like all the other SNs

- In Chapter 1002, when Zoro asks (doesn't order) Law to give him a boost, he cuts the Boro Breath destined to Luffy
But answering your point about Zoro being restricted, Law's assist gave him a literal boost to his offensive: he was placed exactly in front of dragon Kaido head (point blank, as you said). Law actually gave Zoro the input to bring some proper offence, so here is more like the opposite of what you're saying: at this juncture his work was facilitated, not complicated.
The fact that later Luffy himself tanks the Boro Breath shows that this one was more a boost for Zoro, than a saving for Luffy.

- In Chapter 1003, Zoro ignored the "Gale of Destruction" and focused on carrying Luffy (for obvious reasons) but, if you want my opinion, I don't think that this one was supposed to hint at a possible counter even bigger than the one he already performed with "Tatsumaki"
The "Gale of Destruction" was composed of a thick fog of large wind slashes (similar to the one Zoro deflected the chapter before) and lightnings

These slashes look much more lethal than the "Tatsumaki" used by Kaido the first time, this can be confronted through Kidd's armor: with Kaido's "Tatsumaki", the metal just gets pushed back cause of air force, there are no clean cuts/amputations. With Kaido's "Gale d Destruction", the metal gets cleanly cut by sharp wind slashes.

These slashes have been deflected by Killer, and look similar to those from "Kaifu" (deflected by Zoro the chapter before)
So, in my opinion, that attack was supposed to be interpretated as something that can't be countered, at least in his entirity (cause Zoro and Killer were shown having no troble in handling one or two slashes at a time).


In regards to Zoro's behaviour, I think that the fact that he's prioritizing Luffy's safety is only a good (and expected) thing. At the end of the day is a team battle, the same way he gave an hand to Luffy, he received an hand from Law. The same way Luffy received an hand from Zoro, he gave an hand to Killer and so on.
I think it's not correct to point out only Zoro for being restricted/not having the possibility to build a proper offence, everyone on the rooftop is facing 2 Emperors so is expected to have difficulties in creating openings
 

Doggo

Welcome to the House of Hope
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#27
Zoro was nerfed in the sense that he was sacrificing offensive opportunities to defend Luffy instead.

Zoro landed Hiryuu Kaen and Kokujo Ou Tatsumaki cleanly, but he only landed them because he was trying to rescue Luffy. If he did not need to rescue Luffy, he wouldn't have launched those attacks.

I.e. Zoro completely ignored trying to fight Kaido head on and only focused on protecting Luffy.

We see this most clearly when Kaido challenges Zoro with Tatsumaki: Gale of Destruction:


Zoro ignores Kaido's challenge and instead runs away while carrying Luffy. This was a direct opportunity to meet Kaido's challenge and counterattack, but Zoro chose to run away because he needed to protect Luffy.
Not really.
You are talking as if he was getting weakened, but he was not. He uses a technique that cuts fire clean. 0 damage on him. After that, he decides to launch the Hiryuu Kaen. He didn't sacrifice any offensive capacity to launch this attack. He even has time to "call out the attack" (which is way "named" attacks are one of the most retarded things ever created). Kaido just stands there, watching. He takes BM's attack not because he was protecting Luffy, it was because he was vulnerable after the attack, due to Enma's haki consumption most likely. That's 100% on him. He had a favorable positioning to launch the attack. Like I said, this is actually a buff, not a nerf.
Later, when he uses the tatsumaki, he is not carrying Luffy, who was swallowed. He takes the opportunity of Kaido's distraction with devouring Luffy and manages to cut him. Kaido then spits Luffy out.
When BM attacks Luffy, he just cuts the flames, 0 damage, or takes Luffy away, completely dodging her attack, again, 0 damage.
If he were to simply fight Kaido head on, then Luffy would get rekt already, then it would be 1 less person for the 2 Yonkos to deal with, making things actually harder for Zoro and the others.
The challenge part is exactly what I'm saying. He is on a team battle. He can't simply let Luffy get picked off just to go "solo".
Unless you think he can literally 1v1 Kaido and win, trying to go "unnerfed" will actually make them lose.
Because, again, there's Big Mom there, and she won't just stand still. She can launch attacks that can hit multiple targets.
Big Mom struck him down when he was vulnerable, BM struck Killer when he was on Kaido's back. She's backing him up. By doing so, their threat becomes higher than simply adding them together.
Spoilers from this week chapter.
Which is why they've decided to try separate the 2 Yonkos. They realized is too hard to fight them together.
 

Seth

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#31
Whenever Zoro takes part in same fight as Luffy, he is always nerfed down to Luffy's standards. I hope Oda would stop doing that or stop pairing them together.
Luffy has been a liability the whole Wano, Zoro would be better off if he didnt have to look after him...
Doubt it will happen as long as they are fighting the same opponent/in the same place.

Dude Oda stalled 10 fucking chapters so Luffy can spat his line and get the opening attack.........
 
#36
The reverse to this is that Luffy has been the main target for the Yonko, and so Zoro did not really have to deal with them focusing on him and trying to put him down.

He was basically only attacked once when Big Mom launched her AoE lightning at everyone on the battlefield, and then Luffy was the one who pushed through and kept the Yonko's attention on him with the barrage of attacks he launched at Kaido, while the others recovered.

Actually we can count Kaido's wind blades in a similar manner, but like with Big Mom we're talking about spread out attacks targetting everyone, not just Zoro in particular.
 
#37
Up until G4 ran out i wouldn't call that babysitting, but teamwork/assistance. He's fighting seriously while also assisting Luffy.

Once G4 ran out then yeah he pretty much had to jump in and literally save him, there's no getting around that.

We haven't seen what he's done after saving Luffy though so we'll see, but honestly saying he's been "nerfed" throughout the whole fight just seems salty or like you're trying to push the Zoro agenda for some argument or whatever.
Like imagine if a Sanji fan was like: "Sanji was nerfed during his clash with King because he had to save Momo and give him a thumbs up".
 
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