[FNZ] Role Madness Jujutsu Kaisen Mafia - Shibuya Incident [Game Ended = Mafia + Traitor + Neutral Indie Won!]

[Neeko]

Yeah but the game was over - he knew Gram's identity so there was nothing to stop Gram telling him "the team is this" and that's that. The town could not lynch scum, even if we lynched midnight last day phase we still win in the night.

i mean sure, but on your list of grievances that one is at least the most fair and just procedural.

 

[Psylocke]

bidenstare.gif

Hello 2nd member of the mafia team.

I never hide in the scum QT when I'm scum.

I was busy.
Gonna read now.

This was in my response to Gram and me sussing him.

@Flower this is 100% scum ratchet from yugioh game talking btw lol, he’s trying to misdirect you again

Ratchet was the most obvious scum

vote lynch Cal

CFD this guys!
Follow me to victory!
This is the way to go!

You guys really need to follow me more. My intuition is always right

No
Pretty sure Kweh is town
You guys need to hammer Cfd Cal now
@Ultra why you never follow me?

I don’t get why town never follows me. Maybe I need to get better at explaining why I think so and so are scum.
I cant find the other post where I also sussed midnight.

 

[NikaInParis]

Thanks for letting me play (or "play") @Ekkologix

And sorry for ruining it for some players - it came from me being uninformed on the issue

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

1 - The split. 5 Mafia in a 27 player game is already small. 5 Mafia that is effectively 4 Mafia because of Broki's role (more on that in a minute) is ridiculous. We had to force 4 mislynches not counting the final phase (which was a complete farce) alongside 3 vig misfires, for total of 7 "town controlled kills" to 5 (4) scum. Ridiculous.

you have a traitor that learns the identity of the godfather so its 6 members not 5. gram also has a 1x extra vote power ability if yall need it to compensate for the lack of vote broki had for the first 2 days. 7 "town controlled kills" for a team of practically 6 members is normal. broki becomes 2 players by the end if she survived so thats a late game utility for ur team too, additionally some townies r made to have drawbacks to their roles that mafia can exploit if they find it namely prof's seal and psychic's night kill. those r basically extra kills. cal had 2 extra kills that were hard to pull off but doable (or will force the targets to visit fang for heal). speaking of fang, he can remove players from parity as well so u can win sooner than schedule etc..

note that town also had zero protective roles aside from reborns who was even night jailkeeper and the leader protections who was alternate (cannot town leader protect same player twice in a row)

2 - We had no dedicated roleblocker, if we wanted to stop a role we had to gamble with Cal on a 1/4 chance. Cal's role also had defensive capabilities, but we couldn't use them, because there was a chance we delay kill ourselves instead. Cal's role being RNG was just intentionally designed to be frustrating to play around.

yeah u didnt really need a roleblocker. u had mass blocking effects and a perma crush (can crush up to 3 players per 2 cycles). adding a dedicated roleblocker on top of that is too much imo

3 - We also had no misdirection at all. No busdriver, no redirects. The only way we could get one was a one shot from Fang's role where if that role had died we could use it that night as a one shot - we used it to grab Pein's role to busdrive myself and Cal Night 4, whch turned out to be the crucial play because town had yet more investigation power (more on *that* in a minute)

u didnt need those either yep. just take tpein's busdrive. u needed to blend in, not overpower. 2 of kenjaku's mass abilities werent utilized (mass block against negative actions) and a mass vanilla night (this requires mahito to die tho, but its available).

if u r given a redirector/busdriver/deflector thats dedicated, u will mess with the assasination and be granted free multiple kills at night. this wud destroy the game and render the assasinations pointless

4 - Broki's role. One of the most poorly-designed roles I've ever seen. For the first 3 cycles, Broki basically didn't get to exist as far as the game was concerned. Only by Day 6 was it worth anything, Day 6 by the way being the joke of a phase we just played. so ya, when the game is effectively over, Broki can do something. Garbage.

broki can solo win f3, and the game cud go for longer if town didnt have lots of misfires / sukuna was converted / didnt kill that many townies

broki is meant to be weak early, then becomes actor, then seraph (to help with late game kills) then essentially becomes 2 players for parity. also has a 1 shot to see night actions of up to 4 players and change their processing order or cancel 1 of them then set them up for lynch list next day . its a late game role. having broki or fang's role late game is very powerful. fang could ask or bait players to visit him which wud remove them from parity. again try to change ur mindset from overpowering to misleading.

5 - The town's investigation spread. Pretty much one of very investigation role under the sun was included, the worst being X's role - why even have a Godfather when the cop can just bypass it? It just got worse and worse, even Sukuna while not being town was effectively encouraged to town side, and with that, they had everything they needed. In anther world, the investigation roles could win this outright.

sukuna helped out the cop for u guys and cuck him lol. but look
psychic was a watcher and can essentially be switched off just by mentioning her flavor name. X's role was a cop that has to list all players from night 1. he doesnt cop players AFTER flips happen. he submits one list from he start (can change with vow). and any non postive action regardless of what it is will cuck his passive bypass. also if he is targeted with non positive actions 3 times he loses the cop ability for 2 cycles lol
- the motion detector and follower/spy/voyeru roles arent very strong. in fact they can come in handy for u and help confirm ur fake claims as ur ability types r designed to match the fakes with few rare exceptions (factional kill for instance)
- mitch's cop ability sacrificed his vote power and made him vanilla lol
- mango was a day desperado. if he shot corretly he kills, otherwise he dies and confirms another player. this is arguably the strongest cop role town had. mango himself loses vote power permanently after breaking PR 3 times and is modkilled if he broke PR 4 times. he ended up breaking it twice throughout the game
- fang's forensic invest plays really well into this as it confirms his flavor and is a cop ability that helps clear him
- your role can interact with the cop roles and clear you as well by parity linking and providing double cop results. its intended for ur team to blend not over power. i cant stress this enough. ur roles r the towniest version of the roles as can possibly be. how u pilot them and blend is up to u.

6 - The towns killing power. The assassination mechanic was already ridiculously town favoured - it was bvously going to be under the town's control, but ratio wise they controlled over 85% of the possible votes towards assassinations, not to mention that the one giving the orders was town too. But that's not the worst of it. The indie having a duel was frustrating, because it effectively adds to towns killing power unless they can win with it, and Mango's day kill was horrendous. Not only does it confirm his flavour, basically granting him mod confirmation, but there are 0 ways to counter it.

the indie ur speaking off could kill naomi's role as well as has disabled prof's passives so prof was vulnerable to dying by ur team. the confirm part is the same for everyone. your team's roles are very confirmable too

assasination mechanics is countered by leader protections, or simply, transfigurating joy. if u r given a bus drive then u will be able to redirect the assasination every night which will be shit balance lol. instead, u have to make the assasin not list ur name, or be townie enough that town assasins vote against it, or simply use leader protections. u had a 1 shot bus drive (via fangs role. alternatively u can take the jail for protection) and a 1 shot to disguise the leader protection and a 1 shot

u have to simply outmaneuver and predict assasinations, not overpower it or redirect it. if i give u a busdrive for example, then i wouldnt give cal 2x assasin as he shudnt see who the assasination target is if he can busdrive it

7 - The ease of town confirmations. Mango's role was the worst here, but there were several players who could easily be confirmed either by having their names in the role of another or their role fitting a faction that has to be present, it mant we were cnstantly fighting against a wall. We basically used every plausibl mislynch that was available.

"town confirmed" isnt correct here. everyone can confirm their roles, but NOT their alignment. thats done by gameplay. some townies had good gameplay at making themselves appear town. u guys can do same. u can use ur parity ability to duplicate a cop result. there.. easy confirmation! on destroy flower's passive. gram can do a night talk (which was pretty free confirmation as it was basically a roelblock but town doesnt know, and it fit gram's fake flavor insanely well. it doesnt really fit his real flavor that much). cal can confirm himself by his psudo gunsmith ability and say checked player so and so and he didnt perform a kill etc.. your team had crazy amounts of confirmations too lol. i gurantee u town did not confirm their alignments from the roles, they only town read each others from play.

the only town that is confirmed by role is gojo, and he is sealable so will not claim. none of the other townies r mentioned in roles (except naomi's role mentioned in michelle's rolesheet, but that didnt affect the game here, also michelle can get rid of naomi for u so u dont have to worry about naomi claiming as her role warns her to not claim recklessly too)

8 - Scum Leader protects being public. Why, just why?

it actually won u the game lol
its the greatest wifom tool ever. counters assassinations or vig shots, puts needless sus on people, fake frames players etc.. its a game mechanic and i intend to use it again actually. i think its pretty successful

its actually better for u that vig not shoot u cuz of scum leader protect rather than vig shoot u and u survive due to unknown protection (as this makes u way more sus). think of it like that. again is stress this: game is not made for u to overpower, but to mislead.

9 - Almost every townie being heavily rewarded for claiming. No, the "anti-claim" was not effective enough to deter this, not even close.

so was your team ratchet! you were all rewarded for claiming and pretending to be town!! take a look at ur fake roles and at the town roles. they r indistinguishable. in fact some of those were town roles in the initial design phase that i made scum later on (gram's and fang's) . tpeins role was intended to be scum one before i fleshed out the assasination mechanic and banished busdrive from being given to mafia.

10 - Being punished for sealing Gojo. Arguably the most poorly designed thing in this game, when we fnally seal Gojo (which had a one cycle delay on it for no reason other than to be more frustrating and nerfed) the 15 post per day thing kicks in. In the past, Ekko has claimed that this is a very pro town ability - why is there a pro town ability locked behind us achving part of our win condition?

this event wasnt supposed to be proscum, it was neutral. u guys r just aware of it happening after gojo is sealed, aka u have a headstart. i could simply not made u aware and just ran the event after gojo is sealed.

There's probably more I'm forgetting, it was a frustrating slog to play through. Probably one of the most poorly designed games I've ever played, and one were I have a hard time believing that the favoured outcome was not a town victory. The fact that the host's only issue with his setup is a nerf to a town role is an absolute joke, and inspires no confidence in me in his ability to craft anything worth playing.

i think u r looking at it from a different perspective. u r expecting to have a large scum team and brute force town at night. its not gna happen. u are given a medium size team with a traitor and given roles that r identical to town roles. ur job is to blend and play the towniest u can while watching chaos unfold as town destroys itself.

u also neglect that the indies exist and that town isnt only balanced to fight ur team, but also fight the indies as well, which they didnt really succeed in doing.

will respond to the other part in a separate post

 

[Grammaton]

this event wasnt supposed to be proscum, it was neutral. u guys r just aware of it happening after gojo is sealed, aka u have a headstart. i could simply not made u aware and just ran the event after gojo is sealed.

jfc

 

[Grammaton]

Anyway thx for the game ekko, didn’t agree with everything but fully acknowledge the effort that went in

 

[Underworld Broker]

4 - Broki's role. One of the most poorly-designed roles I've ever seen. For the first 3 cycles, Broki basically didn't get to exist as far as the game was concerned. Only by Day 6 was it worth anything, Day 6 by the way being the joke of a phase we just played. so ya, when the game is effectively over, Broki can do something. Garbage.

It's fine, was good for busing since u didn't lose much other than my voice in thread, and distancing worked out in hindsight

i stated i had a girl character, how the fudge is gojo a girl?

I didn't iso ur posts lmao, think only saw the survivor stuff

 

[Underworld Broker]

Sucks my last will didn't show up btw, I also claimed sukuna and tagged flower lol

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

Now, for the issues with how it was hosted:

1 - Refusal to implement basic rules. When Nika talked about subbing out, we expected a modkill. It didn't happen, and while that was annoying and complained about, we were told that if it continued, or if he were town read from it, it would be dealt with. Both of these things happened, and the host refused to do anything about it.

this is a misunderstanding as what i meant is if nika is getting town cleared by it and not lynched cuz of it, its worth a modkill. but nika stayed firmly in PoE throughout the game so that wasnt the case! also its not in the rules to modkill players for that. i wud mod lynch him if he was a wagon. if he is being angleshot as town, and if he is excessively threatning to leave the game etc.. none of these happened. u had tmi on his alignment but town didnt

2 - The final phase. The host clearly doesn't understand that when the town can't lynch scum, you don't play the day out - you skip the day phase, and then speedrun the game until a wincon is achieved. The same thing applies to him not ending last night immediately too - he waited for an action to come in that would change absolutely nothing. Just annoying to play with, and arguably worse for the town because they had to play a day phase where they couldn't do anything but lose.

the last phase was only there because sometimes mafia players go AWOL. its entirely possible town players make 15+ posts while all mafia players go inactive. this will kill all mafia except gram and the townies even if no lynch happened. next night gram can kill mitch which means town does have majority and can lynch him

yes it looks obvious to u, but u shud never end the game if town has a chance ever. how many games have u been in where mafia didnt show up for more than 15 posts a day. a quick example is ur final fantacy game in OLF where most mafia didnt had that number of posts in the last day lol.

3 - Charlie should have died last night - we were told transfiguration applies the cycle after, by wording of charlie's PM, his execution was stayed by Gojo, who was sealed, at which point he no longer has anything keeping him in the game. His role PM stated his executin was waived only if he seals Sukuna - he did not.

no charlie doesnt die if sukuna is killed. he doesnt have anyone to tame anyore. killing sukuna is equivalent to taming him or even better. i could fix the wording a bit for clarity, but flower and charlie were aware of that. his role never said "only if he seals sukuna" this is made up now ratchy. his role says he dies if he doesnt tame sukuna. his first ability says he loses the ability if sukuna dies. there is no longer anyone to tame, so charlie doesnt get executed.

4 - Including parts of hime's role in Cal's flip. This was just absurd - part of Cal's role said that there existed a way to counter the janitor (why a one shot janitor needed a counter I will never know, but apparently scum neded yet more nerfing), but this was supposed to be removed. Except the part that implied something like this was present wasn't removd, because Ekko hadn't italicised it, which meant that really, hime was mod confirmed town with Cal flipping. We had to sit back and think about how we could argue against it - this is just ridiculous, and clearly intended to give the town more "hints" than they need, because what's the point in hiding something that confirms another player as town if you're not actually going to fully hide it?

its redacted. the "you are aware" doesnt mean anything. u have tmi. town doesnt. hime was not mod confirmed thats just u being paranoid lol

5 - Conq receiving that X was transfigured. Transfigurations occur after from the following cycle, so the investigation conq used shouldn't have caught it. Ekko didn't follow the wording of the transfiguration ability.

conq is a spy ability, he receives the feedback a player receives. i give the feedback at the end of night that X's ability failed (due to mango's block) and that he was transfigured, so those feedbacks were copied over to conq

ratchet u have seen this thousand times before. an ability that targets a player and crush their role the following cycle will notify the player that their role is crushed at the end of night. so if i target u with a rolecrush in n2, u get told in end of n2 that ur role is crushed in cycle 3. u visited X in night 2, hence he got notification in end of n2. his rolecrush started day 3 onward. why r u pretending this is a new thing?

6 - The line on hinting. We asked time and time again, what counts for the shitty binding vow thing, and didn't get a straight clear answer. Gram made a post that spelled "I'm Muta", but Ekko insisted it didn't count because it wasn't explicit enough, despite other vague claims being accepted. It was completely inconsistent, he had no idea what he was doing with it and made it up as he went along, often choosing the most obstructive solution towards us as possible.

the i am muta post counted, i just hadnt seen it by then i thought he was talking about another post. okay u r being disingenuous now.

the psot i didnt count was him capitalizing the letters to create i am muta. this wuda counted if he didnt have mixed in caps randomly in the middle messing with it. it wasnt inconsistent. townies got the hang of it fairy easily. just hint something about ur flavor and ur role and tie it to urself. ur over complicating it actually. i denied town alot of hints until they got it right too.

 

[Ratchet]

the i am muta post counted, i just hadnt seen it by then i thought he was talking about another post. okay u r being disingenuous now.

I was talking about the post where he put Muta in capital letters.

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

i think 2 main things can fix ur view ratchet

1. mafia was NOT intended to overpower, they were meant to mislead. Mafia's role are basically town roles given to mafia, with added extra power that town doesn't see. You are intended to play townie, and let town destroy itself. Town only found town by gameplay, not really by roles. And if mafia is in PoE they will get rekt.

2. I think you are used to some forms of pro-scum hosting or going too easy on scum? so this sounded pro-town to you. You don't see behind the scenes I told alot of townies that their binding vows don't count lol. ask nika, prof, joy, ultra, conq those come off top of my head. also sorry i cant grant a modkill that i feel wasn't warranted. its gna fk up the setup for something that doesnt deserve modkill by my estimation

 

[Midnight Delight]

the last phase was only there because sometimes mafia players go AWOL. its entirely possible town players make 15+ posts while all mafia players go inactive. this will kill all mafia except gram and the townies even if no lynch happened. next night gram can kill mitch which means town does have majority and can lynch him

So if any of us were sleeping or couldn't access internet due to RL stuff, we would have lost?

If Charlie subbed mafia instead of Town we would have lost due to him not being able to play at the time.

A lot of users aren't available 24/7 so this seems unfair

 

[Neeko]

ekko i think a fundamental problem is you dont do mechanical clears when you play cause ???(bad) reasons but most players do.

so when someone is telling you that players can be confirmed mechanically, and easily, through their role you don't really seem to understand because you just say it won't confirm them even when to the majority it will lol.

 

[Orwellian]

Now, for the issues with how it was hosted:
this is a misunderstanding as what i meant is if nika is getting town cleared by it and not lynched cuz of it, its worth a modkill. but nika stayed firmly in PoE throughout the game so that wasnt the case! also its not in the rules to modkill players for that. i wud mod lynch him if he was a wagon. if he is being angleshot as town, and if he is excessively threatning to leave the game etc.. none of these happened. u had tmi on his alignment but town didnt

1. You would've never implemented this so I don't believe your claim.
2. Nika asking twice publicly to sub out is why both Flower and Hime directly stated they town read his slot which slants the game further against our team.
3. Don't think you are at all being honest or truthful here because in our scum QT you said if it happened a SECOND TIME you would punish him for doing that after a warning and you never did that which is a fact.

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

I was talking about the post where he put Muta in capital letters.

yeah i cant really approve of that no

it has bunch of other caps mixed

thats like saying

iasasfasfdmadasdasmfasfuaasftfaa

this is i am muta, with bunch of shit mixed in ^

ofc im exaggerating but u get the idea. i stopped alot of townies from doing stuff like that too lol

ultra wanted to say hes claim restricted as his vow but i didnt let it, prof wanted to say " i am purple" for his vow but i didnt let it. he had to outright say I am town leader for the vow but u guys didnt pick on it. midnight did lmao

joy wanted to unlock vow by the PR, nika wanted to unlock with only flavor part at some point (by saying i am swordsman, but then he elaborated more on how he is kusakabe's protige and that counted but ur team didnt pick on it). conq wanted to say little birds as hint, later on elaborated he used his little birds (the crows) to obtain that information

its same to how i told u u can say "i love strawmans" as a flavor part for instance. gram can say im mechanical or can be iron stump those r direct flavor hints as gram's role was literally iron stump in the arc that gave all players communication devices to talk together with

i treated u guys same as town and tried to be as least biased as possible. i just wanted everyone to know their hand and what they can do. what they do with it is up to them

like i preemptively told u guys that tpein unlocked his binding vow buff. i was debating this actually because u guys never asked about it, however i wanted u to know what u have available as u were discussing the busdrive alot and it'd feel whack for u to be planning and i dont tell u what u actually have available etc.. i wasnt gna tell u how many shots tpein had but i feel like maybe i shudnt of even told u he unlocked his binding vow. u guys can notice that or ask it by urself. anyway little things like that i generally like to help the players with just so they r aware of what they have if they r discussing it without giving them any information that they shudnt really know

 

[Grammaton]

i think 2 main things can fix ur view ratchet

1. mafia was NOT intended to overpower, they were meant to mislead. Mafia's role are basically town roles given to mafia, with added extra power that town doesn't see. You are intended to play townie, and let town destroy itself. Town only found town by gameplay, not really by roles. And if mafia is in PoE they will get rekt.

2. I think you are used to some forms of pro-scum hosting or going too easy on scum? so this sounded pro-town to you. You don't see behind the scenes I told alot of townies that their binding vows don't count lol. ask nika, prof, joy, ultra, conq those come off top of my head. also sorry i cant grant a modkill that i feel wasn't warranted. its gna fk up the setup for something that doesnt deserve modkill by my estimation

couldn’t we just have a roleblocker ffs

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

1. You would've never implemented this so I don't believe your claim.
2. Nika asking twice publicly to sub out is why both Flower and Hime directly stated they town read his slot which slants the game further against our team.
3. Don't think you are at all being honest or truthful here because in our scum QT you said if it happened a SECOND TIME you would punish him for doing that after a warning and you never did that which is a fact.

they ddint town read him for wanting to sub out, flower had a town read on him previously while hime continued scum reading him. she just made one post saying he seems townie then threw it right up the trashcan

actually mafia can say i am gonna sub out too. u guys need to stop being weakasses lol. ive seen far worst emotional manipulation that wasnt modkilled

and yes it didnt happen again after i said that. i gave him fair warning and he stopped. like i mentioned if he is a wagon and people started saying nahh we wont lynch him etc.. cuz he said hes subbing out i will interfere and modlynch him

my decision was to not interfere with the game in terms of modkills unless absolutely necessary, because it will hurt the health of the setup. u guys can feel free to wifom nika or make town wifom him etc.. use emotional manipulations to ur advantage instead of cry about it specially when hes a new player and doesnt know about that rule, which btw isnt a rule for me

 

[Grammaton]

they ddint town read him for wanting to sub out, flower had a town read on him previously while hime continued scum reading him. she just made one post saying he seems townie then threw it right up the trashcan

actually mafia can say i am gonna sub out too. u guys need to stop being weakasses lol. ive seen far worst emotional manipulation that wasnt modkilled

and yes it didnt happen again after i said that. i gave him fair warning and he stopped. like i mentioned if he is a wagon and people started saying nahh we wont lynch him etc.. cuz he said hes subbing out i will interfere and modlynch him

my decision was to not interfere with the game in terms of modkills unless absolutely necessary, because it will hurt the health of the setup. u guys can feel free to wifom nika or make town wifom him etc.. use emotional manipulations to ur advantage instead of cry about it specially when hes a new player and doesnt know about that rule, which btw isnt a rule for me

in the politest way, knowing what I know now, I probably won’t bother again, and I suspect I won’t be alone. If you don’t see why this stuff should be 0 tolerance, there’s no hope

nothing personal but yeah.

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

couldn’t we just have a roleblocker ffs

u could but it wont help vs assasinations as the assasination kills come from multiple sources

if u really need one badly, u can unlock cal's vow and have a 1x roleblock on demand or use fang's grave robber on a town blocker (reborn wud fit most)

u didnt really need one tho imo. most of the investigations can be directly fooled by ur team or will mimic ur fake roles so will only confirm u more

basically u only have what u need and u guys used ur actions well. the disguise in day 2 didnt rly accomplish much but if it was used on broki in day 1 it wud have saved her

the bus drive was utilized well

u didnt really use ur mass block or vanilla but ultimately it didnt come to that

town also didnt have lots of protective roles so yall killed the investigative roles easily. u ddint even need to strongmna conq unles leader protected

anyway this is a different perspective than what ur used to probably so i understand how the expectations dont match

 

[EkkoLoJinx]

in the politest way, knowing what I know now, I probably won’t bother again, and I suspect I won’t be alone. If you don’t see why this stuff should be 0 tolerance, there’s no hope

nothing personal but yeah.

Eh idk about that
if it is 0 tolerance i'll flesh it out in rules, but honestly modkills r the worst

emotional manipulation is part of mafia, scum players shud be allowed to whine and cry and say im gna sub out waaa because its part of the game. i will modkill if it was excessive like swearing on your life i will never play mafia again if you lynch me etc.. cuz thats stupid (and ive seen it happen before and go unmodkilled), but a light emotional manipulation is fine for me personally