Kuzan started the fight using his DF powers, which were ineffective against Garp, with Garp saying that Kuzan shouldn't hesitate. When getting serious, Aokiji switched to CqC and brawling. Against an old Garp who had his stomach pierced. In this context, brawling was probably more effective against Garp, as he could just dispel the ice.
And yet I'm faced with the honestly ridiculous take that Ice ball is the extent to Kuzan’s Ice abilities and that Punk Hazard being turned into the elements completely was done just because and has actually no usage whatsoever.
The proof here is Akainu. Ice ball or any attack we've seen Kuzan use in this series didn't put a scar on him. That was freezing abilities on a level we've yet to witness.
Sengoku’s just a big question mark right now. I don’t think the Roger quote really says all that much since we don’t know enough about the state of the Marines at the time. If there are two other decently strong Admirals it says a fair deal, if there aren’t it just means the Marines at the time were very weak with Garp and Sengoku being the only ones worth anything among them. Kong I don’t think will ever do anything.
If Sengoku was way weaker than Garp, it wouldn't have made any sense for Roger to mention him alongside Garp. Might as well just said Garp, especially since they have a special connection, but he did not.
Also, it is not even just Roger: WB too talked about Sengoku, Garp and Roger (not even bothering with BM); Kong talked about the two marines who guided the organization; the VC said other Garp and Sengoku battled WB and Roger.
Btw, I agree that prime Garp was on another level from Kuzan...but is clear as a day that Kuzan was not even remotely going 100%, firstly because Garp himself said it and secondly because we did see his Awakening.
And yet I'm faced with the honestly ridiculous take that Ice ball is the extent to Kuzan’s Ice abilities and that Punk Hazard being turned into the elements completely was done just because and has actually no usage whatsoever.
The proof here is Akainu. Ice ball or any attack we've seen Kuzan use in this series didn't put a scar on him. That was freezing abilities on a level we've yet to witness.
Did Kuzan and Sakazuki transform the island into their respective elements because it had no meaningful usage in their 1v1 whatsoever? Or are you going to claim that Kuzan wasn't serious against Akainu and held his real strength the punches back ?
The other pirates don't have to follow an honorary code and let Garp and Kuzan duel it out. Besides, Kuzan himself stated that the pirates couldn't even come close to killing Garp and if u think that only applies to the fodder then let me remind you how Garp treated Sanjuan and Vasco...as irrelevant fodder which they are to him.
I don’t think “he could lose both arms and legs and you still couldn’t kill him” applies to Shiryu, at least, who had shown he could in fact seriously hurt Garp in such circumstances.
I’m also not criticising them for stepping in, made perfect sense for them to do so. But it did mean that Garp was at a major disadvantage, which we clearly saw, and that Kuzan was doing nothing one vs one, which we also clearly saw.
Nothing about that is an excuse when we have seen the aftermath of the battle between two of the C3 go all out. Just based off of the island they left behind we can conclude that Kuzan was not using all he has got because his abilities are said to not only change the climate but completely terraform the entire island. Hard to do that when your comrades are on the same island you're fighting in.
The constant denial that Kuzan wasn't keeping any of his Logia powers back has no bearing on reality. Once we see an Admiral go all out on panel that argument as well will get shattered.
Terraforming an island? Who cares? Doflamingo levelled an island with Birdcage, he’s nowhere near top tier. What is Kuzan’s terraforming actually going to do to Garp? Doflamingo wrecked an island with Birdcage, it’s still irrelevant in a fight. Kaido can lift them up, but that’s not why he was impressive.
In all those examples Kuzan is either fighting an inferior where he barely shows anything or it's just one short clash with no follow up.
Ice ball is one of Kuzan’s bottom tier attacks, so is his flash freezing. Another point in favour of Kuzan not having shown even close to his entire arsenal while Garp did.
Zero logic here. You’re admitting that the Garp fight is the most we’ve seen from Kuzan, but are somehow still insistant that the attacks he used there are bottom tier? Well, what’s he got that‘s any better? The time he was easily blocked by Ace? The attack that did nothing to Whitebeard? Or maybe the sword that was stopped by Pre EL Zoro and then disarmed by Sanji?
If Ice Ball is bottom tier, show me his mid and top tier stuff lol.
Great. Another point in favour of the C3 being much closer to Prime Garp than previously assumed. The major and biggest dig against the Admirals were their lacking physical abilities. Strength, Stamina, Endurance and Durability. Now we know better. Kuzan was trained by Garp as a brawler, he adopted that fighting style and has shown that he can dish out as well as take some of Garp's punches.
Kuzan is a mini Garp while having an entire arsenal of his own abilities.
A DF reliant fighter is someone that at his strongest uses abilities given by said fruit.
What was the attack that finished off Garp ?
Was it a punch or an Ice spear ?
It was offpanelled and against an outnumbered Garp, that’s what it was lol.
He may well have thrown an ice spear at Garp from mid range when Garp was trying to hold off the rest of the Blackbeard Pirates, doesn’t mean that would land on him one vs one.
No, I think it was a complete by-product of a ten day long logia fight. It’s also pretty useless as a feat. Dressrosa Luffy, Zoro and Law all showed they could do serious damage to the environment with their attacks, who cares? Does Law’s ability to cut in half the mountain that Kuzan turned snowy somehow mean something in a one vs one between the two?
These are high tiers in One Piece and they can cause damage to the enviroment. Ace could stop a winter island from snowing by his mere presence. None of this means much in a one vs one.
Have you seen Akainu vs Kuzan? Going to send it over to me, I’d love to read it.
I’m pretty sure that Kuzan used his DF and his punches against Akainu. Much like I think Akainu did the same to him. What do you think happened, they just stood threw magma and ice at each other like wizards lol?
You tell me, since you’ve apparently read the fight and no one else has. What we do know is that a punch will not leave a scar, no matter how strong it is. Are we going to claim that Ashura and Togen Totsuka >>>>>>> Bajrang Gun because they scarred Kaido and Bajrang Gun didn’t? Now, there’s some Zoro fans who will be delighted to hear it, but I don’t buy it myself.
Or it’s just a visual indicator to show that it was a tough fight between the two.
Cause there’s no ice scars on Luffy, Robin, Garp, Doflamingo, Whitebeard, Garp, Wolf or anyone else that was frozen by Kuzan. I’m not putting much faith in Akainu’s getting off-panel scarring meaning that Kuzan actually has an entirely different hidden fighting style from what we’ve seen.
So what’s the use of it lol. What does terraforming an island actually do against an opponent. Was Kuzan held back from his ability to give an old man pneumonia from the cold and defeating him that way?
Well I’ll say one thing in Kuzan’s favour, I suppose that’s less embarrassing than Kizaru’s struggles against retired Ray who hasn’t held a sword in years or in general the Admirals against life support Whitebeard.
In EL he says his throws don’t fly half as fast as they used to and he hates getting old.
In Marineford Whitebeard said he was just a feeble old soldier now.
In Hachinosu Garp says he’s losing his edge.
That’s every time Garp has fought in the present day he’s been said to be weaker than he was. That’s a consistent picture, and it’s not pointing to him being close to Prime Garp in strength.
And of course, that’s before the Shiryu stabbed gets added to the mix, and doesn’t take into advantage being outnumbered either.
close enough to entertain how Kuzan would fair against him in a fist fight only let alone when he's using all of his abilities...oh I forgot punching is everything Kuzan got.
I wonder how he out a scar on Akainu, rip his skin off ?
And any person that isn't biased against the Admirals would result from this that the attacks mentioned are merely fodder cleansing attacks and not even remotely the extent to what Kuzan can do lmao. You're giving yourself the answer here.
This excuse is wearing very thin when we’ve actually seen quite a bit of Kuzan and how he fights over the years. His fighting style isn’t exactly a mystery. We’ve got seven named attacks from him, more than any other Admiral iirc. I think we’ve probably seen him fight more than any Admiral as well. The only question we really had about his fighting style left after the timeskip was how does he actually fight when it comes to CQC and the Garp vs Kuzan fight answered that.
Stop lying. If anything he has made clear that Garp is not exactly as strong as his Prime version. That he is nowhere near it is headcanon Bullshit Admiral haters have been spreading to put Garp on a pedestal where he never belonged in the first place and Hachinosu has proven that.
Stop crying lmao, it’s not my fault that Oda keeps writing “oh, Garp’s old and weak”, and it’s certainly not my fault that that the Admirals are looking pretty disappointing in recent times. You can ask the old OJ folk, I’m not an ”Admiral hater.”
And the man himself had that to say to the injury.
So let's sum up Garp's statements:
- "My strength has been declining lately!"
- "I've lost my edge!"
- "It’s nothing!"
So who was right ? The irrelevant fodder or the man himself ?
if you assume Garp was bluffing, based on what ?
did Oda confirm it since you want everything spelled out by Oda?
Garp’s entire aim is to sacrifce himself and rescue Coby and the others. Hence the flashback at the start about letting the old man drown.
Coby and the others have stopped and are panicking, Coby is blaming himself.
This is the only time in the entire fight that Garp isn’t smiling, he’s snarling, sweating and bleeding and trying to get Coby to focus again.
So yeah, I don’t believe him when he says “it’s nothing”, I very much think he’s bluffing and that Oda having people say he’s weakened- twice- are right.
Whitebeard was on all sorts of life support machines and drips at the time of Marineford, which he ripped off beforehand. A fact.
Whitebeard got stabbed by Squardo. A fact.
Akainu needed Whitebeard to have a heart attack to land his first hit. A fact.
Kuzan is Akainu’s near perfect equal. A fact.
Garp is old. A fact.
Garp was stabbed by Shiryu. A fact.
Garp was outnumbered. A fact.
Kizaru tried to avoid G5 Luffy. A fact.
One hit from G5 Luffy had him seeing stars. A fact.
Just a bit more nonsense out of you, seems like you're on a roll today. The one that needs to step up his game his Prime Garp. I'm really praying for some impressive feats because as it stands you could really entertain fruitless Kuzan pushing Old Garp to extreme diff.
Naturally his superior Akainu would be more than an equal challenge to the Prime version, superior even.
If Sengoku was way weaker than Garp, it wouldn't have made any sense for Roger to mention him alongside Garp. Might as well just said Garp, especially since they have a special connection, but he did not.
Also, it is not even just Roger: WB too talked about Sengoku, Garp and Roger (not even bothering with BM); Kong talked about the two marines who guided the organization; the VC said other Garp and Sengoku battled WB and Roger.
Btw, I agree that prime Garp was on another level from Kuzan...but is clear as a day that Kuzan was not even remotely going 100%, firstly because Garp himself said it and secondly because we did see his Awakening.
I’m not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt for Awakening anymore. Or CoC, in a slightly similar fashion. Not after Kaido apparently not having it. Logia awakenings are so far entirely fan speculation, we don’t know what they do or who has one. I’ll judge Kuzan by what he has showed, and what he showed was not super impressive against old Garp and really nowhere near Prime Garp.
And he showed that how exactly? By getting repeatedly slammed to the ground by Garp?
Kuzan only looked on par with Garp once in the fight, and it came right after Shiryu stabbed him.
Yes, I do think that only applies to the fodder.
I don’t think “he could lose both arms and legs and you still couldn’t kill him” applies to Shiryu, at least, who had shown he could in fact seriously hurt Garp in such circumstances.
I’m also not criticising them for stepping in, made perfect sense for them to do so. But it did mean that Garp was at a major disadvantage, which we clearly saw, and that Kuzan was doing nothing one vs one, which we also clearly saw.
This is just a terrible excuse.
Terraforming an island? Who cares? Doflamingo levelled an island with Birdcage, he’s nowhere near top tier. What is Kuzan’s terraforming actually going to do to Garp? Doflamingo wrecked an island with Birdcage, it’s still irrelevant in a fight. Kaido can lift them up, but that’s not why he was impressive.
Zero logic here. You’re admitting that the Garp fight is the most we’ve seen from Kuzan, but are somehow still insistant that the attacks he used there are bottom tier? Well, what’s he got that‘s any better? The time he was easily blocked by Ace? The attack that did nothing to Whitebeard? Or maybe the sword that was stopped by Pre EL Zoro and then disarmed by Sanji?
If Ice Ball is bottom tier, show me his mid and top tier stuff lol.
Lol, what we saw is what actually happens when Kuzan needs to fight one vs one. We didn’t know before, we do know. He’s a brawler.
And we also saw, that wasn’t really enough against old, weakened, outnumbered Garp, so he’s screwed against Prime Garp.
It was offpanelled and against an outnumbered Garp, that’s what it was lol.
He may well have thrown an ice spear at Garp from mid range when Garp was trying to hold off the rest of the Blackbeard Pirates, doesn’t mean that would land on him one vs one.
A byproduct of a ten day fight with two logias..
But who cares about causing “damage” to an island?
No, I think it was a complete by-product of a ten day long logia fight. It’s also pretty useless as a feat. Dressrosa Luffy, Zoro and Law all showed they could do serious damage to the environment with their attacks, who cares? Does Law’s ability to cut in half the mountain that Kuzan turned snowy somehow mean something in a one vs one between the two?
These are high tiers in One Piece and they can cause damage to the enviroment. Ace could stop a winter island from snowing by his mere presence. None of this means much in a one vs one.
Have you seen Akainu vs Kuzan? Going to send it over to me, I’d love to read it.
I’m pretty sure that Kuzan used his DF and his punches against Akainu. Much like I think Akainu did the same to him. What do you think happened, they just stood threw magma and ice at each other like wizards lol?
You tell me, since you’ve apparently read the fight and no one else has. What we do know is that a punch will not leave a scar, no matter how strong it is. Are we going to claim that Ashura and Togen Totsuka >>>>>>> Bajrang Gun because they scarred Kaido and Bajrang Gun didn’t? Now, there’s some Zoro fans who will be delighted to hear it, but I don’t buy it myself.
Or it’s just a visual indicator to show that it was a tough fight between the two.
Cause there’s no ice scars on Luffy, Robin, Garp, Doflamingo, Whitebeard, Garp, Wolf or anyone else that was frozen by Kuzan. I’m not putting much faith in Akainu’s getting off-panel scarring meaning that Kuzan actually has an entirely different hidden fighting style from what we’ve seen.
So what’s the use of it lol. What does terraforming an island actually do against an opponent. Was Kuzan held back from his ability to give an old man pneumonia from the cold and defeating him that way?
Lmao, what kind of absolutely shit argument is this?
Sure, take away two of the three times that Garp attacked Kuzan and Kuzan will look amazing lol.
Well, you see, the age card is something that Oda actually has put in the manga.
Along with the “he’s weakened from Shiryu’s stab” card.
So what these are called are “facts.”
Now, you’re card is the “off-panel feats and headcanons” cards.
These are called “opinions”. They aren’t as strong as “facts.”
He literally says he’s weaker every time he fights and Kong said he basically resigned after Marineford to train the new generation.
Well I’ll say one thing in Kuzan’s favour, I suppose that’s less embarrassing than Kizaru’s struggles against retired Ray who hasn’t held a sword in years or in general the Admirals against life support Whitebeard.
In EL he says his throws don’t fly half as fast as they used to and he hates getting old.
In Marineford Whitebeard said he was just a feeble old soldier now.
In Hachinosu Garp says he’s losing his edge.
That’s every time Garp has fought in the present day he’s been said to be weaker than he was. That’s a consistent picture, and it’s not pointing to him being close to Prime Garp in strength.
And of course, that’s before the Shiryu stabbed gets added to the mix, and doesn’t take into advantage being outnumbered either.
So when you say this
The answer is “nope.”
I forgot, did Kuzan’s freezing actually work on Garp, or did he need Shiryu to stab him and then to gang up on him with a couple of YCs?
And yeah, rip his skin off could basically be exactly how Akainu was scarred, it looks very much like the aftermath of frost bite.
This excuse is wearing very thin when we’ve actually seen quite a bit of Kuzan and how he fights over the years. His fighting style isn’t exactly a mystery. We’ve got seven named attacks from him, more than any other Admiral iirc. I think we’ve probably seen him fight more than any Admiral as well. The only question we really had about his fighting style left after the timeskip was how does he actually fight when it comes to CQC and the Garp vs Kuzan fight answered that.
Stop crying lmao, it’s not my fault that Oda keeps writing “oh, Garp’s old and weak”, and it’s certainly not my fault that that the Admirals are looking pretty disappointing in recent times. You can ask the old OJ folk, I’m not an ”Admiral hater.”
And once again, let Dressrosa Luffy and Dressrosa Zoro fight for ten days on an island, they’ll topple mountains and tear open the ground.
It’s really not a sign of much.
Is context lost to you or something lmao?
Garp’s entire aim is to sacrifce himself and rescue Coby and the others. Hence the flashback at the start about letting the old man drown.
Coby and the others have stopped and are panicking, Coby is blaming himself.
This is the only time in the entire fight that Garp isn’t smiling, he’s snarling, sweating and bleeding and trying to get Coby to focus again.
So yeah, I don’t believe him when he says “it’s nothing”, I very much think he’s bluffing and that Oda having people say he’s weakened- twice- are right.
Aw diddums. Facts once again hurt.
Whitebeard was on all sorts of life support machines and drips at the time of Marineford, which he ripped off beforehand. A fact.
Whitebeard got stabbed by Squardo. A fact.
Akainu needed Whitebeard to have a heart attack to land his first hit. A fact.
Kuzan is Akainu’s near perfect equal. A fact.
Garp is old. A fact.
Garp was stabbed by Shiryu. A fact.
Garp was outnumbered. A fact.
Kizaru tried to avoid G5 Luffy. A fact.
One hit from G5 Luffy had him seeing stars. A fact.
Yeah nah, dry those eyes and come back when any of them have actual feats and we aren’t just relying on off-panel terraforming headcanon feats.
Statements mean something when we know the full context, yeah.
Like, what’s youre arguement, that Prime Garp and Prime Sengoku >>>>>>>> Kong and two other nameless Admirals at the time?
Sengoku has good portrayal, but it’s not quite as good as Garp’s and we don’t have anywhere near enough feats.
Post automatically merged:
I don’t think Sengoku is miles off Garp, but I also don’t think he’s equal.
Like say Roger vs Garp is extreme diff, Roger vs Sengoku is high diff, Garp vs Sengoku is high diff.
Still makes sense to mention Sengoku there, but it doesn’t mean he’s quite on the level of the other two.
I’m not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt for Awakening anymore. Or CoC, in a slightly similar fashion. Not after Kaido apparently not having it. Logia awakenings are so far entirely fan speculation, we don’t know what they do or who has one. I’ll judge Kuzan by what he has showed, and what he showed was not super impressive against old Garp and really nowhere near Prime Garp.
@comrade I really liked how he approached each point, do you have anything to add?
I agree with him regarding the fact that freezing an environment means nothing. Aokiji partially froze a large part of Punk Hazard when fighting against Doflamingo; however, this freezing feat was completely ignored in the confrontation. Freezing mountains means nothing; the ideal impressive feat would be the ability to destroy those mountains, thus showing significant destructive capability. But covering mountains (freezing them) contributes nothing. The destructive feats of Akainu and Aokiji in Punk Hazard are poor; Doflamingo could sweep the surface of an island completely using his cage, theoretically destroying a kingdom. Kaido can literally destroy islands, meaning wiping the island off the map to the point where it no longer exists. Freezing the surface of an island is so lame, man. On the other hand, levitating an island is more versatile, as Kaido can easily trap an opponent who can't fly. Kaido can also use the levitated island to throw at someone – there are many functionalities.
Considering how Law cut the huge mountain in Punk Hazard, if he had the same 10 days as Akainu and Aokiji, he could destroy Punk Hazard completely, to be honest. However, Akainu and Aokiji fighting for 10 days left Punk Hazard still on the map, even inhabited, with only a bit of destruction, like one side covered in ice and the other in fire or magma.
Big Mom and Kaido, for example, could sink Onigashima purely through close-quarters combat (physical power). Two admirals fighting for 10 days using everything they had only managed to cover Punk Hazard with ice and "fire." LMAO.
Again, since you're referring to the two moments Garp blitzed Kuzan, what damage did Garp actually do and how close was he to winning the fight ?
Slamming someone once or twice doesn't mean anything when no damage is dealt so please stop making it seem like Garp did anything in those two exchanges.
I don’t think “he could lose both arms and legs and you still couldn’t kill him” applies to Shiryu, at least, who had shown he could in fact seriously hurt Garp in such circumstances.
I’m also not criticising them for stepping in, made perfect sense for them to do so. But it did mean that Garp was at a major disadvantage, which we clearly saw, and that Kuzan was doing nothing one vs one, which we also clearly saw.
And Oda clearly separated Garp and Kuzan when Garp was fighting the other pirates. Not once was there a moment where Garp vs Kuzan looked like Jinbe vs Who's Who where the surrounding fighters are damaging Garp while he's fighting Kuzan. Even when Shiryu stabbed him Kuzan wasn't attempting to take advantage off of that moment.
Again, two exchanges do not mean anything for an entire 1v1 battle. All those exchanges mean that Old Garp is faster than Kuzan which comes to no surprise to anyone here.
Stop making it seem like Garp was mopping the floor with Kuzan dealing a shit ton of damage to him while the other pirates had to step in to have Kuzan survive.
Terraforming an island? Who cares? Doflamingo levelled an island with Birdcage, he’s nowhere near top tier. What is Kuzan’s terraforming actually going to do to Garp? Doflamingo wrecked an island with Birdcage, it’s still irrelevant in a fight. Kaido can lift them up, but that’s not why he was impressive.
Not one bit of it is an excuse, you simply don't want to admit that an Admiral fought Garp while not having shown his entire arsenal.
I don't need to prove anything here when it's so obvious.
We have seen the aftermath of PH and we have seen the damage that Kuzan dealt to Akainu, nobody here can tell me that the extent to Kuzan’s hie hie no mi is what he has shown against Garp.
Bringing up Doflamingo doesn't make any sense when he isn't using a lethal Logia like Kuzan does.
What exactly Kuzan’s all out Ice abilities do I can only speculate but just take a look at this
This is the effect the Aftermath of Kuzan’s abilities used on PH has on someone like Luffy or Zoro let alone the real thing.
anyone that thinks Ice ball or Ice spear is the most useful ability Kuzan can use against a Top Tier is greatly delusional.
Kuzan suffered from the same restriction nearly all Admirals have suffered from fighting in their own turf. Kuzan would be killing the Blackbeard pirates and ruin an island that Teach loves.
Zero logic here. You’re admitting that the Garp fight is the most we’ve seen from Kuzan, but are somehow still insistant that the attacks he used there are bottom tier? Well, what’s he got that‘s any better? The time he was easily blocked by Ace? The attack that did nothing to Whitebeard? Or maybe the sword that was stopped by Pre EL Zoro and then disarmed by Sanji?
If Ice Ball is bottom tier, show me his mid and top tier stuff lol.
Have any of the attacks you mentioned caused the aftermath we've seen on Punk Hazard ?
They didn't and why is that?
Perhaps and maybe Perhaps Kuzan has used new powers related to his devil fruit that were stronger than the ones you mentioned ?
Anyways we know he did based on the aftermath. If he had only used the attacks you mentioned against Akainu the island plus climate wouldn't have changed at all.
Kuzan entered the Navy called a monster. The difference between Garp and Kuzan is that brawling is simply another skill he has in his arsenal while it's everything that Garp has got.
The fact that Kuzan can even remotely keep up with Garp in his own fighting style should already tell you how close a fight Kuzan vs Prime Garp would be.
He may well have thrown an ice spear at Garp from mid range when Garp was trying to hold off the rest of the Blackbeard Pirates, doesn’t mean that would land on him one vs one.
Headcanon unless you can prove it with panels. I mean that's what you want me to do this entire time right ?
Even though I can prove what Kuzan going all out does to a climate and Island, you insist on claiming that Ice ball and Ice spear is everything Kuzan has got even though we know confirmed that every single attack Kuzan has used in this series doesn't cause such an effect leading to the obvious takeaway that he has used a set of new abilities we haven't seen before.
Feels like you're just playing dumb because it would make Garp look bad since he really went all out and everyone knows it lol.
Why haven't the attacks Kuzan used on panel caused this damage to the island ?
Could it perhaps be because those attacks actually weren't the reason the island changed in such way ?
, I think it was a complete by-product of a ten day long logia fight. It’s also pretty useless as a feat. Dressrosa Luffy, Zoro and Law all showed they could do serious damage to the environment with their attacks, who cares? Does Law’s ability to cut in half the mountain that Kuzan turned snowy somehow mean something in a one vs one between the two?
These are high tiers in One Piece and they can cause damage to the enviroment. Ace could stop a winter island from snowing by his mere presence. None of this means much in a one vs one.
It does when you use that environment covered in your element to fight.
We have no comparison because we've never seen the battle between two Top Tier logias going all out.
Does Ryokugyu fight by turning the environment into his element and use it in battle ?
Have you seen Akainu vs Kuzan? Going to send it over to me, I’d love to read it.
I’m pretty sure that Kuzan used his DF and his punches against Akainu. Much like I think Akainu did the same to him. What do you think happened, they just stood threw magma and ice at each other like wizards lol?
Yeah I also believe they did both and whatever fighting style Akainu has but the bulk of the damage between the two was caused by their elements which means they've used elemental abilities that we haven't seen yet.
You tell me, since you’ve apparently read the fight and no one else has. What we do know is that a punch will not leave a scar, no matter how strong it is. Are we going to claim that Ashura and Togen Totsuka >>>>>>> Bajrang Gun because they scarred Kaido and Bajrang Gun didn’t? Now, there’s some Zoro fans who will be delighted to hear it, but I don’t buy it myself.
I haven't read the fight but I'm not ignoring the implications of the aftermath. It's impossible that Kuzan has used all he has got against Garp at Hachinosu while looking at the damage he did to Akainu and the island.
So we both know a punch doesn't scar people but we do know that with freezing powers you can put some terrible scars on someone and mind you Kuzan did it to a guy that's made out of Magma.
I can tell you it surely wasn't Ice ball that have caused this to Akainu lol
Cause there’s no ice scars on Luffy, Robin, Garp, Doflamingo, Whitebeard, Garp, Wolf or anyone else that was frozen by Kuzan. I’m not putting much faith in Akainu’s getting off-panel scarring meaning that Kuzan actually has an entirely different hidden fighting style from what we’ve seen.
So what’s the use of it lol. What does terraforming an island actually do against an opponent. Was Kuzan held back from his ability to give an old man pneumonia from the cold and defeating him that way?
Maybe lol. He was held back by his own crew that would've died had he went all out on Garp.
If Zoro and Luffy can barely survive the cold 99% of the Blackbeard Pirates would die before Teach can return to the island.
How exactly Kuzan fights using the environment I can only tell after reading the fight but I damn sure know that being surrounded by an islands worth of Snow, fighting someone that specialises in freezing and can use the enviroment to attack from every angle is damn tough.....
No need to take them away. Everyone acts like Garp won anything after blitzing Kuzan twice, but when I ask for some damage dealt they usually deflect.
So Garp blitzed Kuzan all over the place. What now ?
Does Garp repeatedly slam Kuzan to the ground until the old man faints from exhaustion?
Not even a full power punch to the chin was able to keep Kuzan down lol.
No actually these are opinions lol. Characters in verse sharing their reactions to what has happened, it doesn't mean that Oda is speaking through the fodder.
Anyways. Despite that I'm not delusional enough to say Garp wasn't weakened by Shiryu's stab. He was but not because Kuzan was too weak and Oda had to weaken Garp otherwise Kuzan would've lost. What’s clear is that Garp vs Kuzan would've taken some time and the fight needed to finish fast, simple as that.
Well I’ll say one thing in Kuzan’s favour, I suppose that’s less embarrassing than Kizaru’s struggles against retired Ray who hasn’t held a sword in years or in general the Admirals against life support Whitebeard.
Slander the Admirals as much as you want. It's reality that an old healthy old legend is actually pretty close to his prime self. Garp is no WB. He wasn't sick at all. He just aged a bit, that's all.
Iirc he said he's declining Lately Which means he only noticed a decline in strength 2-3 years ago. He never said he's 50% as strong as he was in his prime.
That’s every time Garp has fought in the present day he’s been said to be weaker than he was. That’s a consistent picture, and it’s not pointing to him being close to Prime Garp in strength.
And yet none of these statements actually support how much you think Garp declined from his Prime strength. Actually they all seem to imply that Garp has gotten weak enough to notice the difference, that's all.
People started pulling percentages out of their asses like Garp confirmed he is only at 20% of Prime strength which is nonsense.
This excuse is wearing very thin when we’ve actually seen quite a bit of Kuzan and how he fights over the years. His fighting style isn’t exactly a mystery. We’ve got seven named attacks from him, more than any other Admiral iirc. I think we’ve probably seen him fight more than any Admiral as well. The only question we really had about his fighting style left after the timeskip was how does he actually fight when it comes to CQC and the Garp vs Kuzan fight answered that.
Another Logia awakening denier lol. Every fruit class has another stage of abilities but no Logias apparently.
Kuzan has used nothing but low tier Ice attacks in the series, none of these come close to what he must've used to fuck PH up as he did.
Kuzan’s reveal to be a competent CQC fighter is the last missing puzzle to the ridiculous opinion that Garp was anything extraordinary amongst Marine Top Tiers.
When the C3 can even remotely keep up with Garp in CQC I'm scared to see him go up against their strongest Logia abilities.
Stop crying lmao, it’s not my fault that Oda keeps writing “oh, Garp’s old and weak”, and it’s certainly not my fault that that the Admirals are looking pretty disappointing in recent times. You can ask the old OJ folk, I’m not an ”Admiral hater.”
Garp’s entire aim is to sacrifce himself and rescue Coby and the others. Hence the flashback at the start about letting the old man drown.
Coby and the others have stopped and are panicking, Coby is blaming himself.
This is the only time in the entire fight that Garp isn’t smiling, he’s snarling, sweating and bleeding and trying to get Coby to focus again.
So yeah, I don’t believe him when he says “it’s nothing”, I very much think he’s bluffing and that Oda having people say he’s weakened- twice- are right.
Very convenient but why couldn't Oda throw in a panel of Garp thinking "this is bad!" to show the reader that he's really in danger like he did with Kizaru?
So as it stands why would I doubt Garp’s words, do the fodder know better how Garp feels ?
They're irrelevant fodder. When they see someone get stabbed they think he's weakened.
I don't need too. They look good enough as they are. The one who has his portrayal shattered is Garp.
Turns out his disciple almost became as good as he is in his own fighting style while resorting to low tier devil fruit attacks and worst of all take him out with one of those attacks.
The Legendary Hero, right lmao. Makes sense now why Oda never gave him the title of Admiral, simply not strong enough.
No. That Prime Sengoku ~ Prime Garp based on Rogers statement not separating Garp from Sengoku and vice versa strongly implying that both of are the same level of threat to him.
Slamming someone once or twice doesn't mean anything when no damage is dealt so please stop making it seem like Garp did anything in those two exchanges.
And Oda clearly separated Garp and Kuzan when Garp was fighting the other pirates. Not once was there a moment where Garp vs Kuzan looked like Jinbe vs Who's Who where the surrounding fighters are damaging Garp while he's fighting Kuzan. Even when Shiryu stabbed him Kuzan wasn't attempting to take advantage off of that moment.
Are you now actually trying to pretend the invisible man stabbing Garp when he’s facing off with Kuzan doesn’t have any effect on a potential one vs one between the two?
Again, two exchanges do not mean anything for an entire 1v1 battle. All those exchanges mean that Old Garp is faster than Kuzan which comes to no surprise to anyone here.
It should come as a surprise, considering Kuzan was fast enough to freeze the tsunami’s at Marineford. Kuzan is not slow, and an old man being faster not just once but twice was pretty surprising.
The exchanges mean a hell of a lot because they are literally all we get of the fight. There’s three exchanges, Garp wins two, the middle one is a draw and that only comes after Garp is weakened by Shiryu.
Stop making it seem like Garp was mopping the floor with Kuzan dealing a shit ton of damage to him while the other pirates had to step in to have Kuzan survive.
Garp was mopping the floor with him though. He was continually being blitzed and his freezing move failed. He wasn’t doing massive damage, but he also only used one named attack that wasn’t even a punch.
Not one bit of it is an excuse, you simply don't want to admit that an Admiral fought Garp while not having shown his entire arsenal.
I don't need to prove anything here when it's so obvious.
It’s a massive excuse because we’ve seen quite a bit from Kuzan and nothing else that he’s shown would significantly change anything. All you’re hitting me with is headcanons. I might as well say that Prime Garp would have a powerup mode that would let him one-shot Kuzan. Or Prime Garp’s Blue Hole would drop Kuzan so deep that he’d hit the sea floor and drown. Has as much going for it as your argument.
His best actual alternative is trying to stay back and use attacks like Ice Partizan, but Garp’s speed shows that wouldn’t be successful.
Man, you are not seriously trying to argue that Kuzan’s secret weapon is to make it really cold, are you? In a series where Oden survived being boiled for an hour? You know how Luffy and Zoro resolved the above situation, right? They put on a warm coat.
anyone that thinks Ice ball or Ice spear is the most useful ability Kuzan can use against a Top Tier is greatly delusional.
Kuzan suffered from the same restriction nearly all Admirals have suffered from fighting in their own turf. Kuzan would be killing the Blackbeard pirates and ruin an island that Teach loves.
Yeah, and Garp was restricted because he was fighting on the same island as Coby and co and they’d all die in the cross fire if he want all out, yadda yadda.
You think Garp showed his best attacks either? He used one named attack on Kuzan that wasn’t a punch, the man’s nickname is the Fist.
Have any of the attacks you mentioned caused the aftermath we've seen on Punk Hazard ?
They didn't and why is that?
Perhaps and maybe Perhaps Kuzan has used new powers related to his devil fruit that were stronger than the ones you mentioned ?
Anyways we know he did based on the aftermath. If he had only used the attacks you mentioned against Akainu the island plus climate wouldn't have changed at all.
How many times do I have to say it? I don’t care about Kuzan terraforming an island. It’s useless in a fight.
He fought for ten days. If, say, Garp and Kaido fought for ten days, none of the mountains would be left standing and Punk Hazard would be a level plain. Big whoop.
Kuzan entered the Navy called a monster. The difference between Garp and Kuzan is that brawling is simply another skill he has in his arsenal while it's everything that Garp has got.
The fact that Kuzan can even remotely keep up with Garp in his own fighting style should already tell you how close a fight Kuzan vs Prime Garp would be
What, when Kuzan fights Prime Garp is Shiryu still going to be there to land a convenient hit on him before lol?
From what we’ve seen, in Prime Garp vs Kuzan Kuzan can’t even land a hit. He was getting blitzed by an older weaker man, a guy in his prime will be faster and hit stronger.
Even though I can prove what Kuzan going all out does to a climate and Island, you insist on claiming that Ice ball and Ice spear is everything Kuzan has got even though we know confirmed that every single attack Kuzan has used in this series doesn't cause such an effect leading to the obvious takeaway that he has used a set of new abilities we haven't seen before.
You’re really just going to continue to skip over the ten days long aspect of the fight. How many times- give any character of a certain strength ten days to fight on an island, they will destroy it.
Do you think every time Kuzan goes all out that’s it, island permanantly in winter? Is this going to be the hardcore cope for the rest of the series when neither Kuzan not Akainu ever do what they did to Punk Hazard again.
Does Kizaru fight by by using sumo palm strikes to block and blitzing people with light speed?
Ryokugyu doesn’t fight anything like what Kuzan does. Kuzan has never shown the ability to manipulate ice the way Ryokugyu manipluates wood. Similarily, Ryokugyu hasn’t shown he can create constructs like Pheasent Peck and Ice Partizan, that Kuzan can.
I am not just going to grant Kuzan the ability to do what other completely different fighters can do.
One thing we will see is if Kizaru has a form similar to Enel’s big thunder man one and Ryokugyu’s broccoli one. If Kizaru shows that, then we’ve got three and it’s a fair assumption to make that all Logias can do it. That then could be the turning point for Kuzan against old Garp. Wouldn’t be enough for Prime Garp, but it could be some redemption.
Saul also got hit by a full buster call incinerating an island.
Or again, simply the length of the fight. By the end the two of them must have been utterly exhausted. Can easily imagine them struggling to overcome attacks that they were able to shake off easily at the start of the fight.
No need to take them away. Everyone acts like Garp won anything after blitzing Kuzan twice, but when I ask for some damage dealt they usually deflect.
So Garp blitzed Kuzan all over the place. What now ?
Does Garp repeatedly slam Kuzan to the ground until the old man faints from exhaustion?
Not even a full power punch to the chin was able to keep Kuzan down lol.
No, I would imagine Garp would continually smash Kuzan around until Kuzan passes out from pain, bloodloss and exhaustion. That’s what tends to happen when fighting a brawler. Pretty much every Luffy fight in the series goes that way. He hits people until they get knocked out.
This is honestly a fucking dreadful argument. Hooray, Kuzan wasn’t beaten by two punches and a slam. Was the only punch that did anything to Kaido Bajrang Gun?
That full power punch to the chin wasn’t even a named attack and may not have used ACoC lol.
Anyways. Despite that I'm not delusional enough to say Garp wasn't weakened by Shiryu's stab. He was but not because Kuzan was too weak and Oda had to weaken Garp otherwise Kuzan would've lost. What’s clear is that Garp vs Kuzan would've taken some time and the fight needed to finish fast, simple as that.
Garp was winning because he’s stronger so Oda had Kuzan and the Blackbeard’s team up to beat him.
The option of Kuzan winning outright was there to be taken. I don’t think anyone would have been shocked by younger man beating older man. It’s Oda who decided to go an entirely different, far more surprising route.
Slander the Admirals as much as you want. It's reality that an old healthy old legend is actually pretty close to his prime self. Garp is no WB. He wasn't sick at all. He just aged a bit, that's all.
Iirc he said he's declining Lately Which means he only noticed a decline in strength 2-3 years ago. He never said he's 50% as strong as he was in his prime.
And yet none of these statements actually support how much you think Garp declined from his Prime strength. Actually they all seem to imply that Garp has gotten weak enough to notice the difference, that's all.
I think they paint a consistent picture of Oda telling us “this man is not as strong as he used to be.” Which is consistent with retired Ray and Whitebeard on life support. These guys are the old, fading generation. We don’t have or need percentages.
And all those guys in the background, the Blackbeard Pirates, famed for their sense of fair play, they just didn’t get involved, eh? Waving those weapons around for ambience?
And “low tier?” Sorry, is this another fight you’ve read and no one else has? What attack beat Garp and how do you know it’s low tier?
You are basically turning into a Shanks fan ignoring why he and Mihawk would even fight if he wasn’t a swordsman.
Oda goes out of his way to show how Kuzan trained for decades punching battleship bags with Garp.
You- oh, that’s not actually how he fights when he goes all out, he has some hidden secret move that he just didn’t use for some reason despite Garp thrashing him.
Very convenient but why couldn't Oda throw in a panel of Garp thinking "this is bad!" to show the reader that he's really in danger like he did with Kizaru?
What exactly do you think the purpose of these panels are?
He’s bleeding, he’s sweating, the veins are popping out of him everywhere, it’s the only time in the fight he doesn’t smile- he’s even smiling and laughing when he’s finally defeated- and people keep shouting he’s weakened.
He doesn’t need a panel of him thinking this is bad, it’s patently obvious from everything that’s being shown.
Turns out his disciple almost became as good as he is in his own fighting style while resorting to low tier devil fruit attacks and worst of all take him out with one of those attacks.
Or, you know, cause he didn’t want to become the Celestial Dragons teaboy and lobster fetcher.
Absolute weirdest behaviour out there, when Admirals get so defensive over another Marine being stronger than them just because he never actually took the Admiral position that was offered to him?
Hot garbage lmao. It’s the classic “they stood side by side“ loads portrayal that leads to nonsense like Zoro = Sanji.
Garp’s the hero of the Marines, Garp’s the one who fought Roger, Garp’s the one who fought Rocks, Garp’s the main characters grandfather, Garp’s the one training the future of the Marines, Garp’s the one with the actual feats. What does Sengoku actually have that isn’t leeched from Garp? He’s strong, sure, but he is absolutely not Garp’s equal. No Marine is. That’s why Oda said this
Topic: Which characters would you like to go into detail about if you had enough time?
Well, there is a helpful means named "cover story" in ONE PIECE for that purpose... Anyway, there remain some characters I want to go into detail. It would be interesting if I focus on Marines. I can come up with a magnificent story about Garp. I'd like to draw some relationship and talks between him and Akainu, Aokiji, Smoker, Hina, Koby who joined Marines one after another, Cipher Pol and Roger.
It would also be interesting if I focus on Revolutionary Army, mainly Dragon. Why do they intend to make a revolution? With what belief? How did they meet? The story about Luffy's birth would be interesting. Many of those stories would be serious.
All of the stories about their lives lead to Luffy!! OK!! I'll draw Luffy!!
Garp is the main Marine. He’s the strongest one, everyone should be able to recognise that without tearing their livers out with rage. We can only hope he starts to get the rest of them actually looking half decent again.
Even more nonsense now lmao. Kuzan and Garp have had the exact same amount of injuries in the panel you've posted. The last time we've seen them before this panel was when Garp used blue hole meaning those injuries were inflicted on him by Kuzan off-screen.
So how exactly was Garp winning anything when both have dealt the same amount of damage to each other ?
will you now claim that the fodder have dealt the damage to Garp and Kuzan hasn't touched him ?
You have posted the panel yourself, take a good look at it.
Oh yeah the equal punch that Kuzan and Garp have had which confirms that Kuzan can dish out the same level of punching strength as Garp (as the Flashback has shown), just more evidence that at the peak of Kuzan’s strength he's superior to Garp when he already equals him in his own fighting style.
This discussion actually reminds me just how much superior Kuzan is to Garp.
Are you now actually trying to pretend the invisible man stabbing Garp when he’s facing off with Kuzan doesn’t have any effect on a potential one vs one between the two?
No because it definitely did. We've seen it just a couple pages later. Kuzan destroyed Garp when the Navy ship left and the last thing we've seen was a panel of a defeated Garp on the ground with Kuzan in front of him.
I've seen you claim that Kuzan AND the entire Blackbeard pirates ganged up on Garp to defeat it in the end. What headcanon is that?
Kuzan clearly defeated Garp on his own. When Garp was lying there defeated Kuzan was just next to him still covered in Ice and we know that factually it was Kuzan who put Garp down with a final attack.
Can you prove with a panel that another titanic captain has even touched Garp after Koby and co have left the island ?
You can't.
should come as a surprise, considering Kuzan was fast enough to freeze the tsunami’s at Marineford. Kuzan is not slow, and an old man being faster not just once but twice was pretty surprising.
The exchanges mean a hell of a lot because they are literally all we get of the fight. There’s three exchanges, Garp wins two, the middle one is a draw and that only comes after Garp is weakened by Shiryu.
Kuzan being slower than a fruitless Top Tier has surprised you ?
Then I must say that you massively underrate Garp yourself, I don't.
Kuzan has Logia intangability, he doesn't need to be as fast on his feet as Garp. He is close enough and that's more than enough.
Nope. Three exchanges mean nothing for a fight that's portrayed to last a long ass time. What's important is the damage that both fighters have dealt on each other.
They have a couple bruises and a bit of blood on them. Completely equal damage dealt.
So I have no idea where you got the take from that Garp looked superior in any way.
Garp was mopping the floor with him though. He was continually being blitzed and his freezing move failed. He wasn’t doing massive damage, but he also only used one named attack that wasn’t even a punch.
Delusional lmao. Garp was barely having an edge brawling with Kuzan which is Garp's own fighting style. We see on Hachinosu that there is absolutely no damage through further Ice attacks from Kuzan. Go back to Kuzan’s fights before Hachinosu and you'll see that he always causes damage to the surroundings with his fruit. More than enough reason to say that he wasn't able to use his main powers because the other pirates were on the island too and because Hachinosu is their HQ.
You can further claim that it's just excuses, it won't change reality.
It’s a massive excuse because we’ve seen quite a bit from Kuzan and nothing else that he’s shown would significantly change anything. All you’re hitting me with is headcanons. I might as well say that Prime Garp would have a powerup mode that would let him one-shot Kuzan. Or Prime Garp’s Blue Hole would drop Kuzan so deep that he’d hit the sea floor and drown. Has as much going for it as your argument.
His best actual alternative is trying to stay back and use attacks like Ice Partizan, but Garp’s speed shows that wouldn’t be successful.
You just can't accept reality lmao. Imagine thinking Ice ball, Partizan and Ice sabre is the extent to Kuzan’s Ice abilities. Complete and utter nonsense. You'll be debunked so hard when we see the first Logia awakening on panel, then I would appreciate you keeping the same energy.
Prime Garp can't have a mode because he doesn't have a fruit. Modes are a result of DF usage and Awakening.
Throwing Kuzan in the sea doesn’t work either. He freezes kilometres in a split second, he would simply freeze the ocean by contact.
I can understand that you can't accept that Kuzan was holding his main Ice powers like awakening back because it would make Garp look bad in retrospect but it's inevitably coming.
Man, you are not seriously trying to argue that Kuzan’s secret weapon is to make it really cold, are you? In a series where Oden survived being boiled for an hour? You know how Luffy and Zoro resolved the above situation, right? They put on a warm coat.
Deadly enough to put scars on a man that consists of Magma so what does that say about individuals like Garp that don't have such abilities?
Besides we've seen that Kuzan can freeze Garp anyways, he was on the ground and the Ice spear slowly turned him into an Ice statue.
Yeah, and Garp was restricted because he was fighting on the same island as Coby and co and they’d all die in the cross fire if he want all out, yadda yadda.
You think Garp showed his best attacks either? He used one named attack on Kuzan that wasn’t a punch, the man’s nickname is the Fist.
The very first attack that Garp has used is Galaxy impact a large AoE move that annihilated everything below it so yes Garp was actually not checking at all whether Koby was below the range of his Fist. It would even go along with his carefree attitude.
Anyways Garp can't dish out AoE like a Logia, your point makes no sense, you just want to create a case for Garp holding back because Kuzan did. Difference being, Kuzan has several logical reasons to restrict himself while Garp doesn’t and that's why he didn't hold up.
Useless to you but not Oda. Turning the city into strings allowed Doflamingo from getting ragdolled by Boundman to holding out for 20 minutes and actually damage Boundman off-screen severely. Essentially, it made Doffy stronger and it wasn't even a lethal Logia that he was using.
He fought for ten days. If, say, Garp and Kaido fought for ten days, none of the mountains would be left standing and Punk Hazard would be a level plain. Big whoop.
How many times do I have to repeat that your example doesn't relate.
Damage dealt through attacks = Changing the climate and terraforming the island to use in battle.
Kaido and Garp destroy. The environment is of no use to them while Akainu and Aokiji use that very same environment to fight, why do you pretend like you don't get the difference man ?
Shiryu was a plot device to have Garp be defeated sooner than Kuzan would need in a fair 1v1, nothing more and nothing less.
Kuzan doesn’t need Shiryu, he can beat Prime Garp in an extreme diff anyways.
From what we’ve seen, in Prime Garp vs Kuzan Kuzan can’t even land a hit. He was getting blitzed by an older weaker man, a guy in his prime will be faster and hit stronger.
Yet he was bruised and battered in the same panel you've posted lmao. Pls at least take a look at the panels before posting them.
Don't make me repeat this a million times.
Kuzan has injured Garp as much as Garp has injured him. Full stop.
Kuzan did it. Only Kuzan. That the other titanic captain have touched Garp in the off-sceeen exchange Kuzan had where he impaled Garp with an Ice spear is complete headcanon.
You’re really just going to continue to skip over the ten days long aspect of the fight. How many times- give any character of a certain strength ten days to fight on an island, they will destroy it.
You're really just going to pretend like not knowing the difference between causing damage to an island and terraforming it to use in battle. The Volcanoes, Ice mountains and blizzard weren't just an aftermath of the fight, they were weapons used in battle.
Getting sick of having to repeat myself.
Do you think every time Kuzan goes all out that’s it, island permanantly in winter? Is this going to be the hardcore cope for the rest of the series when neither Kuzan not Akainu ever do what they did to Punk Hazard again.
Yes. When both Akainu and Aokiji use awakening they do this to an island, that's the main reason they decided to move to an inhabited island in the first place.
Or maybe the Skull on Onigashima is far bigger than the mountains that Garp used as a punching bag which is why he couldn't pulverise it in one go ?
He couldn‘t even take Pizarro out to be exact with his full power all out attack.
Does Kizaru fight by by using sumo palm strikes to block and blitzing people with light speed?
Ryokugyu doesn’t fight anything like what Kuzan does. Kuzan has never shown the ability to manipulate ice the way Ryokugyu manipluates wood. Similarily, Ryokugyu hasn’t shown he can create constructs like Pheasent Peck and Ice Partizan, that Kuzan can.
I am not just going to grant Kuzan the ability to do what other completely different fighters can do.
One thing we will see is if Kizaru has a form similar to Enel’s big thunder man one and Ryokugyu’s broccoli one. If Kizaru shows that, then we’ve got three and it’s a fair assumption to make that all Logias can do it. That then could be the turning point for Kuzan against old Garp. Wouldn’t be enough for Prime Garp, but it could be some redemption.
Main point being you don't turn the enviroment into your element and have no use of it whatsoever, that doesn't make sense.
You don't need to grand Kuzan anything, you're just asked to think logically that Punk Hazard has clearly introduced to us that it looks way different when a Logia Admiral goes all out as opossed to what Kuzan has actually shown at Hachinosu against Garp.
A brawler for a brawler, just like Kizaru used a sword for a sword against Rayleigh. That doesn't mean it's all both fighters got, it's merely another skill in their arsenal.
In general you're severely underestimating Logias. Feels like you're saying that even Top Tier Logias like the Hie Hie no mi are actually damn near useless against a Top Tier.
Saul also got hit by a full buster call incinerating an island.
Or again, simply the length of the fight. By the end the two of them must have been utterly exhausted. Can easily imagine them struggling to overcome attacks that they were able to shake off easily at the start of the fight.
And why wouldn't the very same attacks that have done no lasting damage such as scarring in the beginning of the fight suddenly damage both fighters for life at the end of it ?
Far more plausible that different set of abilities caused such level of injuries.
No, I would imagine Garp would continually smash Kuzan around until Kuzan passes out from pain, bloodloss and exhaustion. That’s what tends to happen when fighting a brawler. Pretty much every Luffy fight in the series goes that way. He hits people until they get knocked out.
Sure nice scenario. Given the fact that Kuzan took all Garp has got and got up with no problems whatsoever I wouldn't bet on this being accurate though.
This is honestly a fucking dreadful argument. Hooray, Kuzan wasn’t beaten by two punches and a slam. Was the only punch that did anything to Kaido Bajrang Gun?
It means Kuzan is completely capable of taking Garp’s attacks point blank, the missing piece needed to finally push the C3 on Prime Garp’s level. Garp can't even beat the C3 when the two are brawling it out so how is he actually winning a full fight ?
Based on what does the attack need to be named to be one of Garp's strongest ?
Oh and now he hasn't even used ACoC lmao.
Speaking about ridiculous arguments and then this lol.
Garp was winning because he’s stronger so Oda had Kuzan and the Blackbeard’s team up to beat him.
The option of Kuzan winning outright was there to be taken. I don’t think anyone would have been shocked by younger man beating older man. It’s Oda who decided to go an entirely different, far more surprising route.
Not really. Oda has actually done everything he can to convince his readers that Kuzan is superior based on him challenging his former master in his own fighting style and damn near beating him.
He didn't need to show us more. I'm not surprised that a die hard Garp fan can't accept this neither can the Yonkou fans who obviously run an anti Admiral agenda.
Only difference being. Yonkou fans don't actually believe Old Garp is really stronger than any C3 while you actually do.
And yet it doesn't even come close to the ridiculous takes that the Old Legends doesn't even compare to their prime versions, that's just headcanon tbh.
think they paint a consistent picture of Oda telling us “this man is not as strong as he used to be.” Which is consistent with retired Ray and Whitebeard on life support. These guys are the old, fading generation. We don’t have or need percentages.
I'm not saying they didn't get weaker but your take that Prime Garp low diffs Kuzan because he's sooo much stronger than his Old version just is too much.
And all those guys in the background, the Blackbeard Pirates, famed for their sense of fair play, they just didn’t get involved, eh? Waving those weapons around for ambience?
And “low tier?” Sorry, is this another fight you’ve read and no one else has? What attack beat Garp and how do you know it’s low tier?
Yep, that's how the panel makes it seem. The one in front of Garp still covered in his element having put Garp down with an Ice attack was Kuzan, not any other titanic captain.
You are basically turning into a Shanks fan ignoring why he and Mihawk would even fight if he wasn’t a swordsman.
Oda goes out of his way to show how Kuzan trained for decades punching battleship bags with Garp.
You- oh, that’s not actually how he fights when he goes all out, he has some hidden secret move that he just didn’t use for some reason despite Garp thrashing him.
He’s bleeding, he’s sweating, the veins are popping out of him everywhere, it’s the only time in the fight he doesn’t smile- he’s even smiling and laughing when he’s finally defeated- and people keep shouting he’s weakened.
He doesn’t need a panel of him thinking this is bad, it’s patently obvious from everything that’s being shown.
How so ?
Since Wano ended every single agenda against the Admirals have been cleared up one by one with Hachinosu being the cherry on top that the C3 are actual monsters in physical stats too next to their Logia abilities.
Funny because I'm not the one screaming "Look! This is what Oda meant with these panels!! Context!! but then proceeds to ignore Punk hazard because it doesn't fit into the agenda. Lmao, yeah right.
The disciple is as good as he is as a brawler. Kuzan is Garp with a broken Logia on top of that.
Garp has never been anything special. The C3 all had the stats he was granted all this time, with the difference they can do even more and are not just a one dimensional monkey punching everything that comes his way.
Don't lash out on me, I didn't make Garp this disappointing. Maybe God valley saves his portrayal.
Absolute weirdest behaviour out there, when Admirals get so defensive over another Marine being stronger than them just because he never actually took the Admiral position that was offered to him?
Garp’s the hero of the Marines, Garp’s the one who fought Roger, Garp’s the one who fought Rocks, Garp’s the main characters grandfather, Garp’s the one training the future of the Marines, Garp’s the one with the actual feats. What does Sengoku actually have that isn’t leeched from Garp? He’s strong, sure, but he is absolutely not Garp’s equal. No Marine is. That’s why Oda said this
And opossed to all this there are Rogers own words who knows Garp’s strength as good as Sengoku. Didn't separate Garp from Sengoku, why?
Because they are the same level of threat to him.
Topic: Which characters would you like to go into detail about if you had enough time?
Well, there is a helpful means named "cover story" in ONE PIECE for that purpose... Anyway, there remain some characters I want to go into detail. It would be interesting if I focus on Marines. I can come up with a magnificent story about Garp. I'd like to draw some relationship and talks between him and Akainu, Aokiji, Smoker, Hina, Koby who joined Marines one after another, Cipher Pol and Roger.
It would also be interesting if I focus on Revolutionary Army, mainly Dragon. Why do they intend to make a revolution? With what belief? How did they meet? The story about Luffy's birth would be interesting. Many of those stories would be serious.
All of the stories about their lives lead to Luffy!! OK!! I'll draw Luffy!!
Congrats. The worst argument of the day. Only because Oda enjoys writing Garp’s characters doesn’t mean he's the strongest, there's nothing logical about this. Just grasping at straws now are ya ?
Garp is the main Marine. He’s the strongest one, everyone should be able to recognise that without tearing their livers out with rage. We can only hope he starts to get the rest of them actually looking half decent again.
Oh yeah the equal punch that Kuzan and Garp have had which confirms that Kuzan can dish out the same level of punching strength as Garp (as the Flashback has shown), just more evidence that at the peak of Kuzan’s strength he's superior to Garp when he already equals him in his own fighting style.
No because it definitely did. We've seen it just a couple pages later. Kuzan destroyed Garp when the Navy ship left and the last thing we've seen was a panel of a defeated Garp on the ground with Kuzan in front of him.
I've seen you claim that Kuzan AND the entire Blackbeard pirates ganged up on Garp to defeat it in the end. What headcanon is that?
Kuzan clearly defeated Garp on his own. When Garp was lying there defeated Kuzan was just next to him still covered in Ice and we know that factually it was Kuzan who put Garp down with a final attack.
Can you prove with a panel that another titanic captain has even touched Garp after Koby and co have left the island ?
You can't.
Sure, we already saw Shiryu interfere once, the Blackbeard Pirates are notorious for backstabbing- you obviously don’t remember how they killed Whitebeard- but sure, they all suddenly developed a sense a fair play and let Kuzan fight one vs one.
Nope. Three exchanges mean nothing for a fight that's portrayed to last a long ass time. What's important is the damage that both fighters have dealt on each other.
Delusional lmao. Garp was barely having an edge brawling with Kuzan which is Garp's own fighting style. We see on Hachinosu that there is absolutely no damage through further Ice attacks from Kuzan. Go back to Kuzan’s fights before Hachinosu and you'll see that he always causes damage to the surroundings with his fruit. More than enough reason to say that he wasn't able to use his main powers because the other pirates were on the island too and because Hachinosu is their HQ.
You can further claim that it's just excuses, it won't change reality.
You just can't accept reality lmao. Imagine thinking Ice ball, Partizan and Ice sabre is the extent to Kuzan’s Ice abilities. Complete and utter nonsense. You'll be debunked so hard when we see the first Logia awakening on panel, then I would appreciate you keeping the same energy.
Deadly enough to put scars on a man that consists of Magma so what does that say about individuals like Garp that don't have such abilities?
Besides we've seen that Kuzan can freeze Garp anyways, he was on the ground and the Ice spear slowly turned him into an Ice statue.
The very first attack that Garp has used is Galaxy impact a large AoE move that annihilated everything below it so yes Garp was actually not checking at all whether Koby was below the range of his Fist. It would even go along with his carefree attitude.
Anyways Garp can't dish out AoE like a Logia, your point makes no sense, you just want to create a case for Garp holding back because Kuzan did. Difference being, Kuzan has several logical reasons to restrict himself while Garp doesn’t and that's why he didn't hold up.
Another fucking excuse. So Kuzan is frigthened of hurting his pirate allies but Garp someone can toss off gigantic AoE ACoC bombs willy nilly and without hitting any of his allies?
Useless to you but not Oda. Turning the city into strings allowed Doflamingo from getting ragdolled by Boundman to holding out for 20 minutes and actually damage Boundman off-screen severely. Essentially, it made Doffy stronger and it wasn't even a lethal Logia that he was using.
Kaido and Garp destroy. The environment is of no use to them while Akainu and Aokiji use that very same environment to fight, why do you pretend like you don't get the difference man ?
Because I don’t believe what you are saying is true, because you haven’t given any examples as to how Kuzan “using the enviroment” is actually meant to hurt Garp.
Other than giving Garp a cold. That was a very convincing argument.
Shiryu was a plot device to have Garp be defeated sooner than Kuzan would need in a fair 1v1, nothing more and nothing less.
Kuzan doesn’t need Shiryu, he can beat Prime Garp in an extreme diff anyways.
Yet he was bruised and battered in the same panel you've posted lmao. Pls at least take a look at the panels before posting them.
Don't make me repeat this a million times.
Kuzan has injured Garp as much as Garp has injured him. Full stop.
You're really just going to pretend like not knowing the difference between causing damage to an island and terraforming it to use in battle. The Volcanoes, Ice mountains and blizzard weren't just an aftermath of the fight, they were weapons used in battle.
Getting sick of having to repeat myself.
Yes. When both Akainu and Aokiji use awakening they do this to an island, that's the main reason they decided to move to an inhabited island in the first place.
Or maybe the Skull on Onigashima is far bigger than the mountains that Garp used as a punching bag which is why he couldn't pulverise it in one go ?
He couldn‘t even take Pizarro out to be exact with his full power all out attack
Not really. Oda has actually done everything he can to convince his readers that Kuzan is superior based on him challenging his former master in his own fighting style and damn near beating him.
And why wouldn't the very same attacks that have done no lasting damage such as scarring in the beginning of the fight suddenly damage both fighters for life at the end of it ?
Sure nice scenario. Given the fact that Kuzan took all Garp has got and got up with no problems whatsoever I wouldn't bet on this being accurate though.
It means Kuzan is completely capable of taking Garp’s attacks point blank, the missing piece needed to finally push the C3 on Prime Garp’s level. Garp can't even beat the C3 when the two are brawling it out so how is he actually winning a full fight ?
Yep, that's how the panel makes it seem. The one in front of Garp still covered in his element having put Garp down with an Ice attack was Kuzan, not any other titanic captain.
Kaido‘s the main Zoan villain, stronger than Kuzan, more important than Kuzan and didn’t get awakening,
If only Teach and Akainu get it, maybe Dragon if he’s the Wind Logia, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I thought the Admirals would all have CoC but that doesn’t seem to be happening either.
Garp has never been anything special. The C3 all had the stats he was granted all this time, with the difference they can do even more and are not just a one dimensional monkey punching everything that comes his way.
Nah man, I just have a brain and can tell that Oda is writing a story where there’s going to be a very good reason for Garp and Roger to team up against Rocks when the Celestial Dragone were there.
Garp’s clearly not proud of it, which makes him a better man than every Admiral except Fujitora.
And opossed to all this there are Rogers own words who knows Garp’s strength as good as Sengoku. Didn't separate Garp from Sengoku, why?
Because they are the same level of threat to him.
Congrats. The worst argument of the day. Only because Oda enjoys writing Garp’s characters doesn’t mean he's the strongest, there's nothing logical about this. Just grasping at straws now are ya ?
Prime Coby will be the strongest Marine in history lmao.
Anyone who reads a Shonen will know that the main characters legendary strong grandfather whose called the Hero of an organisation will be the strongest character in it until his young prodigy (who is the first person the main character meets in the story) eventually surpasses him.
Akainu’s been supplanted by Imu and the Gorosei and was never as big a deal as Blackbeard. There’s no reason for him to be stronger than Garp. He’s not the final villain. Might not ever even get a proper fight with Luffy if the Dragon relationship plays out.
That’s what folk with a brain will see, but we still have some people wanking a guy who ended up Blackbeard’s subordinate and his ten day fight equal lol.
I know where you're trying to spin this, no chance. If you're implying the fodder that Garp is fighting in those panels actually are the reasons for the injuries on his body then stop right here pls. Nobody is going to buy that anyone other than Kuzan has dealt that damage to him. We've seen the portrayal of Garp vs two other titanic captains.
- Sanjuan was chucked into the ocean, not a portrayal that suggests he touched Garp.
- Vasco saying "so this is the legendary hero" before attacking suggests it's his first encounter with him.
so the only possible explanation as to who damaged Garp and roughed him up is Kuzan. He was the only one directly fighting Garp to begin with.
don't disrespect Garp any further by leading the discussion to irrelevant fodder being able to rough him up when even Kuzan says that's impossible.
His body literally says different. Can you look at the panels before typing?
Garp was completely untouched when he used Blue hole meaning he took attacks after that scene off-screen.
You're deflecting. Bringing up Luffy vs Lucci will lead you nowhere. That Punch is the strongest attack we've seen Garp do in a 1v1 and to think even that is not enough to keep Kuzan down...really just shows you how much inferior he is to the C3, always was.
What sad denial, you've completely lost it at this point. Garp has used aCoC against Pizarro even after he got up again from Kuzan’s punch.
The fact that you're trying to argue that Garp lost his aCoC for a split second and then used it again just shows how desperate you are.
Spare me with that bullshit.
Sure, we already saw Shiryu interfere once, the Blackbeard Pirates are notorious for backstabbing- you obviously don’t remember how they killed Whitebeard- but sure, they all suddenly developed a sense a fair play and let Kuzan fight one vs one.
Those are the facts:
- Kuzan is the one standing next to a defeated Garp.
- Garp was struck down by an attack of Kuzan’s fruit, not Shiryu’s sword or any other titanic captain attack.
- Kuzan is still covered in his ice signalling he was the last to fight against Garp.
you have completely lost the plot at this point, just spouting nonsense. Created some headcanon scenario in your head where all titanic captains jumped Garp after the Navy ship left lmao.
What's next ?
Did Blackbeard sneak up secretly and attack Garp off-screen as well ?
Mate, you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Logia intangability is the reason Logias are deemed invincible and it created personas such as Enel overconfident because they cannot be hurt. Kuzan doesn’t need to dodge every attack because when it is haki-less it doesn't connect meanwhile Garp ALWAYS has to move out of the way and block it. Naturally he is far more dependent in being quick on his feet while Kuzan can depend on the natural defense of his fruit power.
I literally have to explain pre ts stuff to you, has the Garp agenda messed up your brain this much ?
A fruitless Top Tier is expected to outclass the DF reliant fighter in every base stat speed, power, durability and endurance. The fact that Garp has only got one of those above Kuzan just tells you how disappointing he is.
You're right. I overestimated Garp. Seems like even fruitless Kuzan is completely capable to defeat him in what looks like a high diff.
Then why didn't Shiryu fight Garp in the first place ? Or finish him off when the Navy ship left ?
instead Kuzan had to do it lmao. Technically Kuzan’s ice spear has also dealt more damage than Shiryu’s stab so even in this you are wrong.
Just like they did nothing against Akainu ?
Oh I forgot. The scars he received from Kuzan appeared because Oda wants to show that they had an intense fight but it wasn't actually the abilities of Kuzan that caused those. Akainu must've injured himself after the battle to look tough.
Friendly reminder that Kuzan stated Akainu’s body must be riddled in scars, that's what he told the Blackbeard pirates. Surely all those injuries came through the magic power of "signalling that two characters were in a long fight".
Yeah that's the difference between actual AoE and the puny cute little attacks that Garp has to offer like Galaxy impact. We've seen the range that one had, destroying a whooping 7 buildings...even Doflamingo and Law have shown more impressive shit.
Another fucking excuse. So Kuzan is frigthened of hurting his pirate allies but Garp someone can toss off gigantic AoE ACoC bombs willy nilly and without hitting any of his allies?
As pathetic as Galaxy impact was Garp still didn't look out at all for Koby, he doesn't have the brain capacity to do that. Also one of the main differences between him and Kuzan.
Don't compare Kuzan’s legit AoE to whatever kindergarten nonsense Garp has to offer.
You have asked how AoE helps in a fight and when you're told examples you simply claim they have no connection to Kuzan when you were proven wrong in the main point lmao.
Awakening and AoE was what helped Doffy survive an entire round of Boundman and keep standing while Luffy needed the help of his allies to not get killed by Doffy.
Because I don’t believe what you are saying is true, because you haven’t given any examples as to how Kuzan “using the enviroment” is actually meant to hurt Garp.
Other than giving Garp a cold. That was a very convincing argument.
Nearly as convincing as claiming that the Admirals turned Punk Hazard into their respective elements because it has actually done fuck all in the battle. I must have picked up that skill from you.
Shiryu was a plot device to have the inevitable arrive sooner. Garp was fighting a losing battle. Kuzan completely equalled him in his own fighting style while holding his own Logia power back to not fuck up the island and kill his pirate crew.
You can't even look at the panels you've posted yourself, sit the fuck down. Reading is another thing but first manage to look at the condition of your favorite before and after then half of this discussion would be unnecessary.
I'm debating with someone that thinks injuries are created to signal two individuals have been in a fight but that doesn't mean those two individuals actually have injured each other.
Why didn't Garp punch through the Ice spear stuck in his chest ?
That clown can't even break Kuzan’s fodder attack of course he's incapable to fight Kuzan at the height of his powers like Sakazuki did.
No actually he wanted to show how much of a beast Garp is. Breaking 7 buildings, failing to KO Pizarro with his strongest attack, failing to do fuck all to Kuzan with point blank aCoC attacks and finally being taken down by 3 attacks.
Really paints a nice comparison to the amount of attacks WB took at Marineford. Garp the Legend was it right ? Lmao
For someone accusing others to use headcanon feats you really like to use a shit ton of headcanon yourself. If it is that obvious provide the panels that prove the attacks that didn't do anything to Akainu in the beginning actually put scars all over his body in the end.
Garp went all out. He has shown all he had and it was that disappointing. Couldn't even take down Kuzan with his strongest punch. His grandson at least did more with something we know wasn't his strongest attack.
Go look it up. It's a fodder cleansing attack he used almost every time he fought, equal to Kizaru’s finger laser and Akainu’s basic non named Magma punch.
Unfortunately that level of attack was enough to end the legend...
Every time I go down a comment I think about stopping right there, you have absolutely not a single argument. Just arguing based off of your own agenda then accusing others of doing something that you're doing all this time.
Sucks that at the end of the day reality will catch up even to you...it will take some time though given how deluded you are.
LMAO. This is the exact lowest tier of devil fruit usage we've seen of the C3. Akainu and Kizaru have used their devil fruits like this against fodders since their first introduction panel and you're here actually trying to sell anyone that this is the max abilities their fruits have to offer.
Stronger than Prime Garp too. I actually didn't think this would be the case but given Garp’s performance on Hachinosu I would have to reevaluate this one.
only Teach and Akainu get it, maybe Dragon if he’s the Wind Logia, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I thought the Admirals would all have CoC but that doesn’t seem to be happening either.
- Ryokugyu capturing Weevil
- Ryokugyu and Fujitora cleared off Rev army allegations. None of those clowns touched the Admirals at the reverie
- It being confirmed on Amazon lilly that Marines have to wait for clearance from HQ to attack the Yonkou while the opossite isn't the case
- Confirmed that Kuzan is a physical monster that could dish out equal physical force like Garp against the battleship bags and by extension Akainu
No idea what manga you've been following but the Admirals haven't looked this good since Marineford and the punch Kizaru received will be cleared up shortly as well. In before it's confirmed Kizaru is playing dead because he doesn't wanna kill Vegapunk based on the recent FB's we were shown that highlighted their relationship as friends.
Nah man, I just have a brain and can tell that Oda is writing a story where there’s going to be a very good reason for Garp and Roger to team up against Rocks when the Celestial Dragone were there.
Garp’s clearly not proud of it, which makes him a better man than every Admiral except Fujitora.
For decades Garp has been the pillar that secured the CD and all the garbage they've been doing to the world. Just based on him working for the Marines proves what a hypocrite he is. He knows they take slaves and does nothing about it, not even half the man his son is which is why one can at least respect the desk merchant Dragon.
There's actually nothing implying that Garp is superior to Sengoku, you know that as much as I do. The portrayal you have is Oda enjoying writing Garp’s character more, in what world that proves his superiority in strength is something I don't know.
Like his title almost half of what's surrounding Garp is completely made up.
Right right. In an era of no conflict with no actual rivals to support his growth through rivalries. Well if he beats Kuzan I can at least put him above Garp.
Anyone who reads a Shonen will know that the main characters legendary strong grandfather whose called the Hero of an organisation will be the strongest character in it until his young prodigy (who is the first person the main character meets in the story) eventually surpasses him.
Sounds like your version of One piece sounds like fun. The strongest are created in the era of the most chaos which is generally the era where the main character is active. The longest running theme in OP is that the new era surpasses the old. Kuzan surpassed Garp (even adopting his fighting style) and Koby will surpass Kuzan also adopting Garp’s fighting style. See the pattern ?
Even then it is a question whether the strongest of the Navy is Koby or Akainu.
One thing is for sure, it won't be Garp.
Akainu’s been supplanted by Imu and the Gorosei and was never as big a deal as Blackbeard. There’s no reason for him to be stronger than Garp. He’s not the final villain. Might not ever even get a proper fight with Luffy if the Dragon relationship plays out.
He doesn’t need to be a final villain to be stronger than Garp. Garp has no weight to the story, there is no reason for him to be the strongest of the Navy.
He is no villain, not the greatest rival for Roger, just some strong dude of the past Navy era like Sengoku.
Both EoS Luffy and Dragon are above Prime Garp so whoever Akainu fights he still scales above Prime Garp regardless.
His feat of defeating Aokiji already puts him above by feats.
Notice how during this entire discussion I have not used the fact that Kuzan is crippled a single time to make excuses for him while you did use the age card at every given moment.
I don't have to fall so low as to put my favorites down to make excuses.
This is Just to point out the most obvious and evident narrative hint of Akainu vs Luffy (samIt e hint of another certain fight, Shanks vs BB btw).
In fact, I would post these exact same pics if someone tried to deny Shanks vs BB. They can't do with Kaido vs Oden since, well, it has already happened.
This is Just to point out the most obvious and evident narrative hint of Akainu vs Luffy (samIt e hint of another certain fight, Shanks vs BB btw).
In fact, I would post these exact same pics if someone tried to deny Shanks vs BB. They can't do with Kaido vs Oden since, well, it has already happened.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
