Lots of narrative gaps this chapter. Though it’s clearly intentional. Based on the title, it’s like we’re meant to consider Oden foolish and stupid for agreeing to do this. That is, until we learn the truth about that deal. Kaido might’ve been more involved in the dealing. No way would Orochi been able to convince Oden alone. Oden’s anger appeared more directed at Kaido than Orochi. This might be the part of the arc where Kaido takes over as the antagonist once again.
Same shit.
Not gonna lie though, it will probably go on for more TWO chapters. One chapter for a big clash, probably one panel of each Retainer doing an amazing attack. And Oden landing the scar on Kaido.
The other chapter will skip some of the fight, and eventually get Oden executed.
Or I can see Three chapters, where the fight takes 2 chapters, and the capture and execution of Oden is in third chapter.
Lots of narrative gaps this chapter. Though it’s clearly intentional. Based on the title, it’s like we’re meant to consider Oden foolish and stupid for agreeing to do this. That is, until we learn the truth about that deal. Kaido might’ve been more involved in the dealing. No way would Orochi been able to convince Oden alone. Oden’s anger appeared more directed at Kaido than Orochi. This might be the part of the arc where Kaido takes over as the antagonist once again.
Best explaination was given I think was the Two poisonous arrows suddenly hitting two civilians eyes, and they died.
There is a probability that The citizens of flower capital, all of them were held as hostage, while Orochi demonstrated the death of Two civilians during that scene for Oden to tell him to stop and agree to it.
But who did those poisonous arrow come from? Was it Queen? or what it a regular archor who could have been stopped easily? or maybe they developed an actual weapon, maybe by Queen himself, and using that weapon on the citizens was the price for Oden to agree
Same shit.
Not gonna lie though, it will probably go on for more TWO chapters. One chapter for a big clash, probably one panel of each Retainer doing an amazing attack. And Oden landing the scar on Kaido.
The other chapter will skip some of the fight, and eventually get Oden executed.
Or I can see Three chapters, where the fight takes 2 chapters, and the capture and execution of Oden is in third chapter.
Here is the question though. Let's say someone catch Bartolomeo off guard like that. What would happen if Bartolomeo activated his barrier after that? while Bellamy is still holding? Would the barrier cut Bellamy's arms as an example? or would the barrier be activated BUT in an area around bellamy's arms?
What would actually happen
Even if there's such weapon, it's weird that Oden would let such a weapon exist without even trying to sabotage it. Like come on, you have 2 ninjas, and Kanjurou who can infiltrate anything with his painting. There's literally no reason for Oden to keep it a secret from his retainers
Best explaination was given I think was the Two poisonous arrows suddenly hitting two civilians eyes, and they died.
There is a probability that The citizens of flower capital, all of them were held as hostage, while Orochi demonstrated the death of Two civilians during that scene for Oden to tell him to stop and agree to it.
But who did those poisonous arrow come from? Was it Queen? or what it a regular archor who could have been stopped easily? or maybe they developed an actual weapon, maybe by Queen himself, and using that weapon on the citizens was the price for Oden to agree
Probably
Although some people have been suggesting the idea that Oda is such a troll that he can actually cut away from Flashback, and go back to present time. Because it's kinda the same kind of spot where Oda stopped from present time and went to flashback. As both timeline now, the past and present, are both going to war with Kaido, with retainers doing the same walk. And there is the idea that Oda may incorporate some of the flashback during the war fight itself in present time.
For example, Oda may show some of the backstory of Asura's point of view when in present time, the screen time is focused on Asura. And Oda can show some of the war in flashback from Kinemon side, when the focus is on Kinemon fight during the present time...etc. While, the focus on Oden's own fight with Kaido, and his execution, is when Luffy and co face Kaido, and we will see it from kaido's own point of view.
There is a positive a negative about this move though. The constant use of "going back in time, and then coming back to present" may exhaust the viewers.
However, there are some good positives to this move, things like:
1- It'll make the retainers fights have more impactful, as we will get attahced to them more if each one of them, we saw the flashback in their point of view.
2- It can be used as a broken pieces of the puzzle, about what happened to Oden and some mysterious shit like exposing the real traitor, as connecting all of their flashback together, can result in seeing the full picture and exposing the real traitor. Which can be somewhat entertaining
3- Lastly, It may keep Oden, his jorunals, and among other stuff like (kaido wanting to know the secrets of the world and One Piece from Oden), to stay involved and stay in heat of discussions till the END of the arc.
4- Lastly, if there is ANY KIND of time trick used by Toki, and prophecies, and so on. It can actually be used and synced between the past, and present through syncing both wars together. By making Oda show the war of the past, along with the war of the present. So that if there is big plot twist, the fans do not have the time to actually guess it. Which will have more impact
But just like I said, it's negative is that, it may make some people tired of going back and forth. It's the same as when I saw "The witcher series"
Reading the german translation and it seems like the flashback is till continue with the end quote.
Still wait for tomorrow the official translation, but I think Oda just hype up the next chapters with Oden vs Kaido encounter.
Aren't people dying nearly everyday while Oden is supposedly punishing himself? Kinda makes it worse if he was doing all of this by choice. For one Hyogoro's wife wouldn't be dead.
And of course should Oden's death itself be punishment for his leaving Wano as you say Oda is doing? Also, isn't leaving Wano actually a good thing?
Like lets look at this for a second. Wano has an antiquated law of closed borders and Oden breaking that law hasn't been presented as a bad thing necessarily. So the first time he left Wano wasnt that bad.
Then the second time he left, he was willfully ignorant of course and thats always a bad thing. But then how should this will full ignorance be pushed suitably? Well First you have to cure said ignorance and Oden was told of Fodderochi's schemes and brought up to speed. After that then we should either have rehabilitative punishment to try and fix the wrongs or have retributional punishment that weighs justice with pain. Oda here of course chooses the latter since Oden dancing around like a fool does literally nothing to try and write his wrongs. For five years this random meaningless task has no point other than retribution and that's it. Now Oden is just filled with indignation for his fellow man in then most random of ways I feel and has just decides to merch of to his death to actually try and address the mess he made. Which you might call rehabilitative punishment in some way but then Oden JUST DIES. And most of the suffering he caused just gets transfered to his children and retainers.
So in the end Oden doesn't actually pay for anything specifically if this is what Oda wants to put across since his penance is purely retributional and seemingly doesn't do anything to rehabilitate him or his actions and then he dies transferring his duties to much weaker people than him.
If Oda wants to make a point about punishment here then it's a general Mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh for me
My bad, I didn’t really go into enough detail with regards to what I meant by Oden’s current predicament being self inflicted.
When I said that, I wasn’t necessarily implying that Oden voluntarily decided to dance like a fool for 5 years as a punishment to himself. Orochi was most likely the one that came up with a stupid idea like that. What I meant to say tho, was that maybe Oden deep down felt that the foolishness Orochi suggested was his just deserts, given wano is in the current state it is coz he abandoned it. So in addition to whatever Orochi promised him, he might also be doing it as a way of atonement & bearing the burden by himself coz his retainers & family have no sin thus feels he has no right to burden them with it.
That said I don’t think Oden was doing that for 5 years without any plan. I think he was waiting for the best opportunity to strike down Kaidou, with the ship & the a potential audience with Kaidou being some of said opportunities. One thing Oda has emphasized several times about Oden in this flashback is that he’s a reckless mofo but I think Oden was forced to mature a bit & do things more pragmatically in consequence to what happened with Orochi & what Toki said with regards to him ‘thinking about the consequences more’. Reason why I say this is coz of what Oden said to Hyou this chapter ‘Please don’t do anything reckless’. I don’t know, maybe I’m over thinking it but those comments seem a little odd coming from someone like Oden who rarely thought about the consequences of his actions till now. Plus who knows maybe Orochi also promised Oden that he’d stop killing the Wano citizens long as they don’t rebel. I can’t say for sure that Orochi didn’t kill any citizens during that period, but there was no mention of it, so chances are that Orochi didn’t.
That considered, the massacre of Hyou’s family shouldn’t have happened but it did, in addition to Orochi defaulting on his promise to give Oden a ship and whatever Oden requested of Orochi with regards to Kaidou. So Oden acting now is prolly coz he felt he was out of options & that he wasn’t going to be getting the chance he was waiting for. I mean hypothetically speaking, why bid ur time & wait for an opportunity to take wano back if the your primary reason for waiting has been taken from you (I.e. the well-being of the Wano citizens). Yes the Wano citizens where slaves for 5 years but Oden might have thought that as long as they are alive there’s hope.
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Also with regards to Oden leaving wano coz he wanted to open wano’s borders, in the long run, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. However, Oden ignored his responsibility as the Shogun’s son as the next in line to rule coz of his personal desires & Wano falling to Orochi was ultimately because of that.
I would be very surprised if the ship reference was that Orochi promised Oden a ship one day
First of all, doesn't seem in Oden's character to run away and get help over something he obviously sees as "his" problem, given he already rejected Ray's help.
I also don't think Oden could just sit and watch Orochi run Wano into the ground purely because he apparently has a plan to run away and get help... sometime. Whatever Orochi is threatening Oden with, it seems to be something that strength cannot really stop.
And why would Orochi give Oden a ship when he has him exactly where he wants him? Why would Oden put all his faith in someone who has proven himself so very clearly untrustworthy? Now, obviously Oden believed that Orochi would do something, but I think based on Orochi's character, and Oden's, that that something has to be something that wouldn't be a threat to Orochi. The guy is not going to do anything out of the goodness of his own heart, and he's not going give do anything that could threaten himself.
Probably
Although some people have been suggesting the idea that Oda is such a troll that he can actually cut away from Flashback, and go back to present time. Because it's kinda the same kind of spot where Oda stopped from present time and went to flashback. As both timeline now, the past and present, are both going to war with Kaido, with retainers doing the same walk. And there is the idea that Oda may incorporate some of the flashback during the war fight itself in present time.
For example, Oda may show some of the backstory of Asura's point of view when in present time, the screen time is focused on Asura. And Oda can show some of the war in flashback from Kinemon side, when the focus is on Kinemon fight during the present time...etc. While, the focus on Oden's own fight with Kaido, and his execution, is when Luffy and co face Kaido, and we will see it from kaido's own point of view.
There is a positive a negative about this move though. The constant use of "going back in time, and then coming back to present" may exhaust the viewers.
However, there are some good positives to this move, things like:
1- It'll make the retainers fights have more impactful, as we will get attahced to them more if each one of them, we saw the flashback in their point of view.
2- It can be used as a broken pieces of the puzzle, about what happened to Oden and some mysterious shit like exposing the real traitor, as connecting all of their flashback together, can result in seeing the full picture and exposing the real traitor. Which can be somewhat entertaining
3- Lastly, It may keep Oden, his jorunals, and among other stuff like (kaido wanting to know the secrets of the world and One Piece from Oden), to stay involved and stay in heat of discussions till the END of the arc.
4- Lastly, if there is ANY KIND of time trick used by Toki, and prophecies, and so on. It can actually be used and synced between the past, and present through syncing both wars together. By making Oda show the war of the past, along with the war of the present. So that if there is big plot twist, the fans do not have the time to actually guess it. Which will have more impact
But just like I said, it's negative is that, it may make some people tired of going back and forth. It's the same as when I saw "The witcher series"
I wouldn't mind jumping in time at the right spots one bit, also really loved it in the Witcher series.
Of course the foreign (ok, let's be specific: the majority of the English speaking audience) will find something to bitch, because those who complain can't comprehend the jumps in time.
My bad, I didn’t really go into enough detail with regards to what I meant by Oden’s current predicament being self inflicted.
When I said that, I wasn’t necessarily implying that Oden voluntarily decided to dance like a fool for 5 years as a punishment to himself. Orochi was most likely the one that came up with a stupid idea like that. What I meant to say tho, was that maybe Oden deep down felt that the foolishness Orochi suggested was his just deserts, given wano is in the current state it is coz he abandoned it. So in addition to whatever Orochi promised him, he might also be doing it as a way of atonement & bearing the burden by himself coz his retainers & family have no sin thus feels he has no right to burden them with it.
That said I don’t think Oden was doing that for 5 years without any plan. I think he was waiting for the best opportunity to strike down Kaidou, with the ship & the a potential audience with Kaidou being some of said opportunities. One thing Oda has emphasized several times about Oden in this flashback is that he’s a reckless mofo but I think Oden was forced to mature a bit & do things more pragmatically in consequence to what happened with Orochi & what Toki said with regards to him ‘thinking about the consequences more’. Reason why I say this is coz of what Oden said to Hyou this chapter ‘Please don’t do anything reckless’. I don’t know, maybe I’m over thinking it but those comments seem a little odd coming from someone like Oden who rarely thought about the consequences of his actions till now. Plus who knows maybe Orochi also promised Oden that he’d stop killing the Wano citizens long as they don’t rebel. I can’t say for sure that Orochi didn’t kill any citizens during that period, but there was no mention of it, so chances are that Orochi didn’t.
That considered, the massacre of Hyou’s family shouldn’t have happened but it did, in addition to Orochi defaulting on his promise to give Oden a ship and whatever Oden requested of Orochi with regards to Kaidou. So Oden acting now is prolly coz he felt he was out of options & that he wasn’t going to be getting the chance he was waiting for. I mean hypothetically speaking, why bid ur time & wait for an opportunity to take wano back if the your primary reason for waiting has been taken from you (I.e. the well-being of the Wano citizens). Yes the Wano citizens where slaves for 5 years but Oden might have thought that as long as they are alive there’s hope.
Post automatically merged:
Also with regards to Oden leaving wano coz he wanted to open wano’s borders, in the long run, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. However, Oden ignored his responsibility as the Shogun’s son as the next in line to rule coz of his personal desires & Wano falling to Orochi was ultimately because of that.
Well this is tte common theory but then there's one glaring issue here. Why does Oden care about Fodderochi's promises?
I mean we've been shown that Oden is somewhat gullible to some extent especially when it's do with things he doesn't have much care for like Money but we have never been told that Oden is a bad judge of character. He immediately called out Fodderochi as trash the moment he laid eyes on him and he even only gave money to him because he was technically a former member of Yasu's household and not because he somehow got tricked into thinking Fodderochi was an upstanding guy. Oden has actually been presented to be an good judge of character in fact since he collected the retainers who were essentially sort of scoundrels but he managed to see some strength and goodness in them and managed to rehabilitate even Ashura. (Now I know we never actually get to see how Oden managed to rehabilitate all these delinquents and that's lazy writng on Oda's part but it's implied Oden is still good at reading people given the outcome of how many scoundrels he managed to set right). Hell he's even introduced like this with him telling Kin'emon not to take the blame for the Mountain god thing because he knows how to read people in general well enough to know the situation isn't helped by Kin'emon's confession.
Like I get that We dont know what happened between Oden and Fodderochi in that room but at the moment, what in hell would've somehow convinced Oden that making any kind of deal with a person like Fodderochi was a good thing?
This genuinely baffles me because in that moment, Oden has ENOUGH proof to know that literally nothing Fodderochi promises or says is worth a lick of salt and as I pointed out, Oden hasn't been presented as a bad judge of character up to now so he should know this. It doesn't matter whether Fodderochi plain threatened Oden and his family and all of Wano with the wrath of Kaido or he promised to not kill people or promised not to come to Kuri with his policies or promised whatever those ships and Kaido related stuff were. Oden should by now not be a person who believes anything from Fodderochi. Btw I'm not even taking into account that Oden is impulsive by nature here. I'm completely taking impulsiveness out and giving Oden time to think. A Rational Oden would not or at least should not believe that Fodderochi is a person of any type of character to just make good on any type of promise.
This is the glaring issue with this situation. A cheap work around would be to say that Oden’s character completely changed somehow after one conversation and something else is what made him made him make any type of deal. Like he was told something so mind boggling that in a matter of hours he lost the ability to reason that Fodderochi ain't a person to make deals with due to something like fear or regret or despair or something.
And I say whatever this thing that made Oden switch character is in fact a cheap work around is because it gets dispelled so easily. All it takes is for Fodderochi not to keep some promise and a few people Oden knows get killed and whatever it it's that was binding Oden is immediately dispelled after five years of whatever this thing it's looming over him. Like in real life when things like this fester they get worse. If you have a regret or a secret it gets worse and worse the longer you hold on to it and yet five years of whatever this thing is barely mattered because of a broken promise or relatively minor characters dying. See this thing that held Oden down is cheap because it will be introduced as a quick work around for that situation and then for very week reasons it will be displaced by the righteous indignation out of no where. And it doesn't help that Oda presents these two things in the span of just six pages. Like whatever changed Oden happens and then six pages later it doesn't matter and the five years in between that should make it matter are also unimportant apparently and now the time line has been fixed and Oden is ready to die having not changed meaningfully aside from five pages of montages and the story has been reset.
I just reread the chapter, I have to admit that the last pages make oden and his scabbards look badass af.
Can't wait to see their suicide mission. Kaido is going to have a hard time fighting this Oden.
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