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And thats why I like Denjiro/Kyoshiro unlike stupid Kawamatsu he decided to be useful and sneaky he conquored a creat portion of Orochis men and protected the citizien Oden wanted to protect on his own
Kawamatsu was just an idiot useless prick he could just agree to join the BP and then defect to sea ( since he is a fishman nobody would catch him) or would act like Denjiro and protect the people
Denjiro MVP
Kawamatsu was just an idiot useless prick he could just agree to join the BP and then defect to sea ( since he is a fishman nobody would catch him) or would act like Denjiro and protect the people
Denjiro MVP
I don't know, i may be the only one who thinks this way, but this flashback didn't moved me emotionally at all, the FB could have been skipped it wouldn't make a difference for me. We found out a bit more stuff but this without problems could have fit in last chapter. I really hope that next chapter we are back in the present.
Now that Koyshiro's identiy is finally revealed, people still think there's a spy. There's none.
One thing I think people don't understand is how one learns about the crescent tattoo.
Let's remember that Oden died 20 years ago. Sometime 20 years ago, people took up crescent tattoos as a sign of their backing of the Kozuki clan.
Who knew this information? No one but those with the tattoo.
No one knew about the tattoo. So, how does one learn of the tattoo? One only learns of the tattoo IF the people with tattoo tell one it's meaning.
What's my point here? Not even Kyoshiro/Denjiro knew what the crescent tattoo meant meaning he couldn't be the leak.
Who then leaked the meaning of the tattoo? Someone who knows what it meant.
I'll just drop some small details. People have just been forcing someone to be the culprit without evidence.
Some are blaming O-Kiku, but let's not forget that the scabbards appeared from 20 years 3 months ago. O-Kiku has been inside of Wano for 3 months while Kinemon and co. went out searching for allies.
So, who is the leak? One thing people are assuming is that a leak means an enemy (or attempt to sabotage). A leak doesn't necessarily mean saboteur or that the leak is an enemy. Leaking information could be to the benefit of the alliance. In many cases yes, but it in principle doesn't.
Rushing to my conclusion here, I'll just say:
The leak is someone who became aware of the plan after Luffy arrived; Luffy's arrival is a reference point. What we can deduce from this is someone or something changed after Luffy arrived, thus a leak.
Take to mind that Shutenmaru got invited by Kinemon to join the alliance, they both have the same goal, but he declines? Odd.
Why would he leak the crescent tattoo? He's been trying to recruit people for 2 decades and didn't recruit that many. He probably wanted to test the legitimacy of Kinemon's claims and see just how many people were willing to fight against Kaido.
More so, if he knows about Denjiro's identity, it just makes a lot more sense. He knew they wouldn't be killed off.
Furthermore, whoever was leaking clearly didn't leak information to harm the alliance:
The leak is likely Shutenmaru, but he isn't leaking things to sabotage the alliance, he's leaking things to find out information and to fool Orochi.
One thing I think people don't understand is how one learns about the crescent tattoo.
Let's remember that Oden died 20 years ago. Sometime 20 years ago, people took up crescent tattoos as a sign of their backing of the Kozuki clan.
Who knew this information? No one but those with the tattoo.
- We know this for a fact because Orochi never arrested any of these people for the past 2 decades.
- Shutenmaru has been trying to recruit people for over a decade, yet didn't know to come look for these people.
No one knew about the tattoo. So, how does one learn of the tattoo? One only learns of the tattoo IF the people with tattoo tell one it's meaning.
- Bare in mind Kinemon (leader of the scabbards) didn't know about it until he appeared 20 years into the future and got told by the people with tattoos.
- For 2 decades, no one has been arrested.
- For 2 decades, these tattooed people haven't been recruited either.
What's my point here? Not even Kyoshiro/Denjiro knew what the crescent tattoo meant meaning he couldn't be the leak.
Who then leaked the meaning of the tattoo? Someone who knows what it meant.
I'll just drop some small details. People have just been forcing someone to be the culprit without evidence.
Some are blaming O-Kiku, but let's not forget that the scabbards appeared from 20 years 3 months ago. O-Kiku has been inside of Wano for 3 months while Kinemon and co. went out searching for allies.
- For 3 months, the crescent tattoo wasn't leaked meaning O-Kiku couldn't have been the leak.
So, who is the leak? One thing people are assuming is that a leak means an enemy (or attempt to sabotage). A leak doesn't necessarily mean saboteur or that the leak is an enemy. Leaking information could be to the benefit of the alliance. In many cases yes, but it in principle doesn't.
Rushing to my conclusion here, I'll just say:
- There was no leak in the alliance until Luffy arrived.
The leak is someone who became aware of the plan after Luffy arrived; Luffy's arrival is a reference point. What we can deduce from this is someone or something changed after Luffy arrived, thus a leak.
- What changed? Shutenmaru got involved.
Take to mind that Shutenmaru got invited by Kinemon to join the alliance, they both have the same goal, but he declines? Odd.
- We do however know Shutenmaru has been trying to recruit people for 2 decades.
- He's been gathering ships for 2 decades.
- He stole blueprints to Kaido's mansion.
- Even after he joined with Kinemon, there's a shot of Shutenmaru and Denjiro haven fought against Kaido, but when Kinemon brings up Denjiro, Shutenmaru doesn't say a thing.
Why would he leak the crescent tattoo? He's been trying to recruit people for 2 decades and didn't recruit that many. He probably wanted to test the legitimacy of Kinemon's claims and see just how many people were willing to fight against Kaido.
More so, if he knows about Denjiro's identity, it just makes a lot more sense. He knew they wouldn't be killed off.
Furthermore, whoever was leaking clearly didn't leak information to harm the alliance:
- Prisoners are not harmed, they're basically just relaxing in the capital.
- No leak about Momonosuke of all people despite the fact whoever leaked will know where he is; taking Momonosuke out would have ended any attempt on Kaido or Orochi; Momonosuke is why they're fighting, he's a remnant of the Kozuki name.
- For about 2 weeks, the leak has known the hideout of the scabbards, and never leaked their hideout until they all left.... (meaning no one was harmed...)
- Orochi himself even stated despite all his actions that he doesn't really believe they're alive meaning the leak isn't confirming anything to him.
The leak is likely Shutenmaru, but he isn't leaking things to sabotage the alliance, he's leaking things to find out information and to fool Orochi.
The amazing thing about this flashback for me, was that it showed Gol D Roger, Whitebeard, the first journey to find Joy Boy’s treasure and all the history that came with it! Especially knowing about what the different characters alive during that time were up to. I liked the fact that we learned about Oden and Wano (and ofc the Kyoshiro and Toki reveals/history) and that we actually got hints about what the One Piece is supposed to be. The teasing of the answer to a mystery that has been alive throughout 20+ years is super exciting to me! Oden said that they learned everything in the world: about the Void Century, the ancient weapons and the meaning of the D. name. That Joy Boy will return to Wano. All that info is what was awesome about the flashback. The emotional part was mostly just epic to me, not necessarily tearjerking.
I do look forward to getting back to the present, but the flashback definitely added to that feeling. I wonder what the Strawhats will do next!!
I do look forward to getting back to the present, but the flashback definitely added to that feeling. I wonder what the Strawhats will do next!!
Imagine going through all that shit, all that drama, to find out there wasn't a traitor. How fucking anti-climax is that, not even Oda would go that low.
It's like he's developed a fetish for abandoning plot points and noncommittal towards some of them.
Never said he leaked Zou's location. I said the Crescent Tattoo most likely because he secretly knows about Denjiro being Kyoshiro and biding his time and also to see how many people would be gathered because Ashura Doji has been preparing and recruiting all the while the scabbards were sent into the future.
Maybe no one actually gave Vivre cards to Jack or the Beast Pirates, maybe they acquired it somehow.
We have know Idea how even Raizo got to Zou all alone. I'd assume someone must have given it to him.
Roger and Oden got to Zou without Inuarashi or Nekomamushi, but with a Vivre card. Whose Vivre card? We don't know.
Hardly doubt there's a traitor amongst the Minks, they're just far too loyal.
Could well be Oden had Vivre cards and they got acquired by the Beast Pirates when he was being killed or after he was killed.
Really difficult to say how anyone of them have gotten Vivre cards. The one thing I can't say is anyone amongst the Minks is a traitor as every Mink almost died. If there were a traitor, they'd surely have been speared from the brutality of the Beast Pirates at Zou and more so, they must have been outside of Zou at one point in their life which for someone like Carrot who was once said to be the traitor can't be the case; Carrot's been enclosed at Zou her entire life.
Other would be Pedro who sailed out of Zou once and then returned. Unless someone acquired his Vivre card somehow, but then we go back to the fact he's a trustworthy character as we would assume regarding Inu and Neko who were also brutalised.
Difficult to pin-point.
We have know Idea how even Raizo got to Zou all alone. I'd assume someone must have given it to him.
Roger and Oden got to Zou without Inuarashi or Nekomamushi, but with a Vivre card. Whose Vivre card? We don't know.
Hardly doubt there's a traitor amongst the Minks, they're just far too loyal.
Could well be Oden had Vivre cards and they got acquired by the Beast Pirates when he was being killed or after he was killed.
Really difficult to say how anyone of them have gotten Vivre cards. The one thing I can't say is anyone amongst the Minks is a traitor as every Mink almost died. If there were a traitor, they'd surely have been speared from the brutality of the Beast Pirates at Zou and more so, they must have been outside of Zou at one point in their life which for someone like Carrot who was once said to be the traitor can't be the case; Carrot's been enclosed at Zou her entire life.
Other would be Pedro who sailed out of Zou once and then returned. Unless someone acquired his Vivre card somehow, but then we go back to the fact he's a trustworthy character as we would assume regarding Inu and Neko who were also brutalised.
Difficult to pin-point.
It's honestly surprising to see that someone else thinks the same as I do, regarding Shutenmaru being the culprit. xD Though admittedly, my reasons behind why are very different to yours, but your reasoning also makes a lot of sense, given what was confirmed this chapter.
Perhaps Shutenmaru knew of Denjiro being Kyoshiro, since he was pretty much the only one - aside from Kawamatsu - who remained in Wano for the last 20 years, so he was probably doing it not only to lower Orochi's guard down and fool him, but also to inform Denjiro indirectly, that the time has come.
And to leak the crescent moon tattoo thing, knowing they'll just be captured, and knowing Denjiro is right there, in the flower capital, who would free them whenever the time is right, it makes a lot of sense.
With the Zou case, I think it could be very possible that the enemy figured out Raizo was in Zou, all by themselves... Raizo was one of the Oniwabanshu in the past prior to joining Oden, and Fukurukuju lead the Oniwabanshu for 20+ years.... One of Kaido's men sighted Kinemon et al when they left Zou.. seeing this, he must've reported this to his superiors: 2 samurai, a child and a ninja escaped.
So far, we know that there is only one ninja squad in Wano: the Oniwabanshu, and Fukurukuju lead this group for 20+ years. He could single out Raizo as the ninja, if given the info. Furthermore, the minks are loyal allies to the Kozuki; it's not improbable to think the enemy might've figured out Raizo was in Zou... it's a no-brainer.... they really don't even need a traitor leaking info to figure this out, imo. :unsure:
The question tho', is - like you said - "whose vivre card did they get? How, and where did they get it.."
So far, no idea.. but they might've used Inu/Neko's (if it was Raizo, Jack would've tracked him in Zou already).. Inu and Neko sailed with Oden, and might've given him their vivre cards when they stayed with Toki in Wano; the Roger Pirates probably used these to sail to Wano again, to drop Oden off... :unsure:
And in the present time, Kinemon definitely used one of their cards to track Zou... so either way, he might've gotten it when he rushed into the castle to save Toki et al, after Oden's death, following Oden's advice to go to Zou beforehand. The Beast Pirates might've had the other one, but to answer how they acquired it is, well..
My only guess is Kawamatsu.. He was in the castle with Kinemon et al, but didn't travel time; he might've took the vivre card for safekeeping, so that it didn't fall into enemy hands; and he stayed in the castle long enough for Hiyori to see Kinemon et al disappear, but Kaido's men got it when he was captured.
But even that, it's still a very wild guess!!
Perhaps Shutenmaru knew of Denjiro being Kyoshiro, since he was pretty much the only one - aside from Kawamatsu - who remained in Wano for the last 20 years, so he was probably doing it not only to lower Orochi's guard down and fool him, but also to inform Denjiro indirectly, that the time has come.
And to leak the crescent moon tattoo thing, knowing they'll just be captured, and knowing Denjiro is right there, in the flower capital, who would free them whenever the time is right, it makes a lot of sense.
With the Zou case, I think it could be very possible that the enemy figured out Raizo was in Zou, all by themselves... Raizo was one of the Oniwabanshu in the past prior to joining Oden, and Fukurukuju lead the Oniwabanshu for 20+ years.... One of Kaido's men sighted Kinemon et al when they left Zou.. seeing this, he must've reported this to his superiors: 2 samurai, a child and a ninja escaped.
So far, we know that there is only one ninja squad in Wano: the Oniwabanshu, and Fukurukuju lead this group for 20+ years. He could single out Raizo as the ninja, if given the info. Furthermore, the minks are loyal allies to the Kozuki; it's not improbable to think the enemy might've figured out Raizo was in Zou... it's a no-brainer.... they really don't even need a traitor leaking info to figure this out, imo. :unsure:
The question tho', is - like you said - "whose vivre card did they get? How, and where did they get it.."
So far, no idea.. but they might've used Inu/Neko's (if it was Raizo, Jack would've tracked him in Zou already).. Inu and Neko sailed with Oden, and might've given him their vivre cards when they stayed with Toki in Wano; the Roger Pirates probably used these to sail to Wano again, to drop Oden off... :unsure:
And in the present time, Kinemon definitely used one of their cards to track Zou... so either way, he might've gotten it when he rushed into the castle to save Toki et al, after Oden's death, following Oden's advice to go to Zou beforehand. The Beast Pirates might've had the other one, but to answer how they acquired it is, well..
My only guess is Kawamatsu.. He was in the castle with Kinemon et al, but didn't travel time; he might've took the vivre card for safekeeping, so that it didn't fall into enemy hands; and he stayed in the castle long enough for Hiyori to see Kinemon et al disappear, but Kaido's men got it when he was captured.
But even that, it's still a very wild guess!!
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The traitor is Lady Toki. She betrayed her fans' expectations
Expectations: she will reveal something about Void Century, reveal why she wanted to go to Wano, or just reveal any other important plot points
Reality: she shutted Oden's mouth when he wanted to talk about that important plot point
Why? I already made a shrine for Lady Toki sama in my bedroom, and following her holy habits in the manga, including staying in background and doing nothing. Why do you betray me Lady Toki? :cry::cry:
Expectations: she will reveal something about Void Century, reveal why she wanted to go to Wano, or just reveal any other important plot points
Reality: she shutted Oden's mouth when he wanted to talk about that important plot point
Why? I already made a shrine for Lady Toki sama in my bedroom, and following her holy habits in the manga, including staying in background and doing nothing. Why do you betray me Lady Toki? :cry::cry:
in a different thread we had a discussion that MAYBE the beast pirates just simply made a vivre card of Inu/Neko after they got caught by the numbers in current chapter... which could be a nice way for Oda to finally explain more in details about how it's made (as far as we know it's from a person's fingernail)
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