Speculations Shanks is not who we think he is.

#61
Never said it was Luffy (yes I belive it could be), but it also doesn't imply that his conversation with the Gorosei was about killing or stopping someone either.

And thats the point of narrative misdirect. Oda intentionally left the name unknown, to have one of two things happen. You either guess its Blackbeard, or you question its someone else.
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Its actually fundamentally weird that Shanks has yet to ever outwardly state he wants to be PK or wants One Piece. Thats why many people, including myself, do not believe that is his goal. We can assume all we want, but at the end of the day we are left with mysterious clues as to what his motivation is. He's never been to Laugh Tale, which virtually proves he has no idea where it is, nor does he have access to it. Luffy is probably further along that path than any pirate in 20 years, with almost 3 Road Poneglyphs.

Again, I will always bring it back to this moment, meeting the Gorosei. If it was just about Luffy surpassing him, he would not be meeting with men who can orchestrate the mass murder of people on a whm, and who openly discussed "purging" AFTER their meeting with Shanks.
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Tbh, im not sure why he's based on Tyr, he has way more connections to the Yakuza i referenced in the OP. All of that is based on the idea that Shanks is fundamentally tied to Elbaf (for some reason which I dont personally understand) and will die by Blackbeards hand there. Thats not to say it can't happen though, I personally just have never truly seen the evidence for it. Id love to hear more tbh
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Virtually said it better than I could ever have.


Edit: Anyway, have fun guys/girls, I just wanted to provoke the conversation lol. By no means do I think I'm correct, but there are clear red flags to poke at with Shanks and his character. We clearly just don't know enough yet
I think the "Yonkou fight for the throne" is enough of a hint he wants the One Piece. Why else would he have formed his own crew? If it was just about protecting Roger's legacy, he could have joined Rayleigh and stayed with him.
 
#63
This is Luffy's face, and his scar;



And this is his flag;



There is no scar. You don't put the scar on there, as a main symbol of your flag, but Shanks did because he is obsessed with it.
One example does not prove the other, like at all lol.

Also, another person who didn't read my OP because I clearly stated Shanks and Blackbeard have an ongoing disdain for each other. Obsession is such a random word to use with like, zero evidence outside of his scar and not actual dialogue lol. He doesn't talk about Blackbeard all the time. In fact, most scenes have him talking about Luffy, so...
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I think the "Yonkou fight for the throne" is enough of a hint he wants the One Piece. Why else would he have formed his own crew? If it was just about protecting Roger's legacy, he could have joined Rayleigh and stayed with him.
Whitebeard was a Yonko and explicitly had no desire to be Pirate King or find One Piece. So how is that any different than what I'm saying
 
#64
One example does not prove the other, like at all lol.

Also, another person who didn't read my OP because I clearly stated Shanks and Blackbeard have an ongoing disdain for each other. Obsession is such a random word to use with like, zero evidence outside of his scar and not actual dialogue lol. He doesn't talk about Blackbeard all the time. In fact, most scenes have him talking about Luffy, so...
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Whitebeard was a Yonko and explicitly had no desire to be Pirate King or find One Piece. So how is that any different than what I'm saying
Not convinced why he shouldn't be obsessed with Blackbeard after even fighting with Whitebeard for him. Suit yourself. We will learn soon enough why he went to Gorousei. Also I read the first post, which includes Shanks's meeting with Gorousei, which is why I explained why he would go to Gorousei for Blackbeard, because Blackbeard is his obsession, and he makes exceptions for him, just like he did when he went to Whitebeard and even fight with him because of Blackbeard.

There is also the fact that most of Gorousei's meetings is either about Luffy or Blackbeard, so it's not a surprise that Shanks, who knows Blackbeard better than anyone, joins in that conversations with Gorousei.

- Chapter 594, Gorousei talk about Blackbeard for example.
Or in another chapter 793, they complain about Aokiji joining to Blackbeard.
 
#65
Not convinced why he shouldn't be obsessed with Blackbeard after even fighting with Whitebeard for him. Suit yourself. We will learn soon enough why he went to Gorousei. Also I read the first post, which includes Shanks's meeting with Gorousei, which is why I explained why he would go to Gorousei for Blackbeard, because Blackbeard is his obsession, and he makes exceptions for him, just like he did when he went to Whitebeard and even fight with him because of Blackbeard.

I'm just going to humor you for a minute. You realize that even if its about Blackbeard and he is obsessed, he still went to the Gorosei to discuss him who are inherently worse people than Blackbeard ever will be right? Blackbeard rose to power of his own gain. He never committed genocide. He never enacted slavery like the Gorosei or like Kaido has (which you can clearly see because Beehive has anyone reign free as long as they are under him there, which is what he offers Moria). He does destroy countries, but as with Drum you can see he does not normally harm innocents.

So even through this disagreement, you have to admit it IS weird and wrong for Shanks to talk to the Gorosei right? Over virtually any other faction like Luffy or Dragon? Or even Marines like Garp? To go that high fundamentally means something more sinister and dark. Right after that meeting they go in to discuss killing Cobra and committing another Genicide. How can this not be wrong?
 
#67
I'm just going to humor you for a minute. You realize that even if its about Blackbeard and he is obsessed, he still went to the Gorosei to discuss him who are inherently worse people than Blackbeard ever will be right? Blackbeard rose to power of his own gain. He never committed genocide. He never enacted slavery like Kaido has (which you can clearly see because Beehive has anyone reign free as long as they are under him there, which is what he offers Moria). He does destroy countries, but as with Drum you can see he does not normally harm innocents.

So even through this disagreement, you have to admit it IS weird and wrong for Shanks to talk to the Gorosei right? Over virtually any other faction like Luffy or Dragon? Or even Marines like Garp? To go that high fundamentally means something more sinister and dark. Right after that meeting they go in to discuss killing Cobra and committing another Genicide.
What's the basis of this?

First of all you're mistaken it with who committed genocide. Gorousei didn't give the order to kill the civilians at Ohara, that was Akainu. They give order to kill the researchers, because they learned too much. Then Akainu wanted make sure that no researcher escaped via civilian ship, so he killed other people who are not researchers as well. And Shanks is not talking with Akainu, if he did you would be right.

I doubt Gorousei has power over Celestial Dragons and their actions, and we never see them having slaves or torturing to slaves, so this is baseless as well.

So, no, Shanks meeting with Gorousei, doesn't prove that he is meeting with worse people than Blackbeard. You could maybe argue that Akainu is worse than Blackbeard (probably even he is not despite Ohara) but Gorousei is definitely not worse than Blackbeard as of the things we know now.
 
#68
What's the basis of this?

First of all you're mistaken it with who committed genocide. Gorousei didn't give the order to kill the civilians at Ohara, that was Akainu. And Shanks is not talking with Akainu, if he did you would be right.

I doubt Gorousei has power over Celestial Dragons and their actions, and we never see them having slaves or treating bad to their slaves, so this is baseless as well.

So, no, Shanks meeting with Gorousei, doesn't prove that he is meeting with worse people than Blackbeard. You could maybe argue that Akainu is worse than Blackbeard (probably even he is not despite Ohara) but Gorousei is definitely not worse than Blackbeard as of the things we know now.
?????

Akainu TAKES his orders from the Gorosei, what? He only enacted on the order to destroy Ohara and everything on it. The Gorosei literally told Spandine to kill Clover and everyone on Ohara once Clover revealed they knew the a portion of the true history (the name of the ancient kingdom)

Why do you think Garp doesn't go beyond Vice Admiral? Sengoku has said it multiple times (the most recent in 957), he doesn't WANT to follow the orders of the Tenryuubito. Guess who are the top Tenryuubito? The Gorosei, they ARE part of that group. Go back and read the Reverie, they ARE Celestial Dragons (Tenryuubito).


Edit: Chapter 907, page 8. They are the top world nobles, above the others. So Shanks is privately discussing issues with Luffy's father and brother's main enemy.
 
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#69
?????

Akainu TAKES his orders from the Gorosei, what? He only enacted on the order to destroy Ohara and everything on it. You kidding? They Gorosei literally told Spandine to kill Clover and everyone.

Why do you think Garp doesn't go beyond Vice Admiral? Sengoku has said it multiple times (the most recent in 957), he doesn't WANT to follow the orders of the Tenryuubito. Guess who are the top Tenryuubito? The Gorosei, they ARE part of that group. Go back and read the Reverie, they ARE Celestial Dragons.
We never see Akainu received order, that's your baseless accusation.

Spandine wasn't after the civilian ship, he was chasing Robin, who also managed to learn to read like other researchers. No where they showed that Spandine wanted to kill the other civilians, or the Gorousei said that.

Aokiji (who had the same rank and also send there for the duty) even said Akainu is an idiot, and he didn't know anything about killing the other civilians. He blamed Akainu for that, not Gorousei.

Aokiji still wanted to be the Fleet Admiral, under Gorousei. He just didn't want Akainu to be the Fleet Admiral, when he become one, he left the marines. Aokiji's problem was with Akainu, not with Gorousei or others.

Gorousei are definitely different than other Celestial Dragons, and once again this is baseless. Especially putting Celestial Dragons and Gorousei in a same group is ridiculous, they are nothing in common.
 

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Pepebusi Spammer
#72
Donquixote Mjosgard (who saved Shirahoshi) and Doffy's father are Celestial Dragons too, it doesn't mean they are all the same.

The point is, we never see Gorousei acting like the other Celestial Dragons, and saying that they are all the same is baseless.
The question is, if they are not celestial dragon how did they live in Mariejois?
 
#74
We never see Akainu received order, that's your baseless accusation.
It was a buster call. Spandine called for it once the Gorosei gave him the go ahead. THERE is your source. Akainu destroyed the one ship he thought Robin was in. The Gorosei literally had Clover and every archeologist killed for knowing too much.

That said. The Gorosei literally talk of "purging" people at the Reverie. So am I wrong to say they commit Genocide? Because they do.

Spandine wasn't after the civilian ship, he was chasing Robin, who also managed to learn to read like other researchers. No where they showed that Spandine wanted to kill the other civilians, or the Gorousei said that.
They literally still kill dozens of archaeologists. How is this any different from murdering people in cold blood? Is killing a child not fucking bad?

Aokiji (who had the same rank and also send their for the duty) even said Akainu is an idiot, and he didn't know anything about killing the other civilians. He blamed Akainu for that, not other people.
He blamed Akainu for one action out of the rest. He let Robin live, indicating he did NOT agree with killing the archeologists. Like I said, the Gorosei still commit mass murder and orchestrated the deaths of dozens of Robin's loved ones. Akainu is just as horrible as they are.

Aokiji still wanted to be the Fleet Admiral, under Gorousei. He just didn't want Akainu to be the Fleet Admiral, when he become one, he left the marines. Aokiji's problem was with Akainu, not with Gorousei or others.
Okay? So the Gorosei are good now all of a sudden? They still orchestrate the deaths of people. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here. Aokiji didn't want Akainu's absolute justice policies in places. Combined with ACTUALLY having to listen to the Gorosei/Celestial Dragons (which Kizaru clearly did once Luffy punched one), it was bad. This is why Sengoku nominates Aokiji.

You realize Sengoku resigned because they covered up Level 6 escapees right?

Gorousei are definitely different than other Celestial Dragons, and once again this is baseless. Especially putting Celestial Dragons and Gorousei in a same group is ridiculous, they are nothing in common.
You are wrong. This is the official translation:

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What I meant is that they are nothing like the other slaver Celestial Dragons, E.Oda never showed them while torturing the slaves, so it's baseless to say that they are worse than Blackbeard.
Dude, just because they are by far smartest of their group and incite control over the WG without actually being shown to be "horrible" to other humans, does not mean they aren't responsible for the slavery that LITERALLY exists in Mariejois and around the world.

They literally talk about purging people during the Reverie. How are you being this naïve right now? This is a hard cold fact.

- The Gorosei are tenryuubito
- They allow slavery/mass killings
- They allow control
- They serve an even higher being of control
- They openly discuss mass killings.
- Shanks talks to said people, whom Dragon and Sabo want to bring down.


Insane denial coming from you right now.
 
#76
It was a buster call. Spandine called for it once the Gorosei gave him the go ahead. THERE is your source. Akainu destroyed the one ship he thought Robin was in. The Gorosei literally had Clover and every archeologist killed for knowing too much.

That said. The Gorosei literally talk of "purging" people at the Reverie. So am I wrong to say they commit Genocide? Because they do.



They literally still kill dozens of archaeologists. How is this any different from murdering people in cold blood? Is killing a child not fucking bad?



He blamed Akainu for one action out of the rest. He let Robin live, indicating he did NOT agree with killing the archeologists. Like I said, the Gorosei still commit mass murder and orchestrated the deaths of dozens of Robin's loved ones. Akainu is just as horrible as they are.



Okay? So the Gorosei are good now all of a sudden? They still orchestrate the deaths of people. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here. Aokiji didn't want Akainu's absolute justice policies in places. Combined with ACTUALLY having to listen to the Gorosei/Celestial Dragons (which Kizaru clearly did once Luffy punched one), it was bad. This is why Sengoku nominates Aokiji.

You realize Sengoku resigned because they covered up Level 6 escapees right?



You are wrong. This is the official translation:
Again, you've no basis that Akainu received direct order to do that. Aokiji didn't even know that and he was surprised, why would Akainu received an order that Aokiji wouldn't know? There is a reason why Aokiji blames Akainu. They specifically said the fire came from Akainu's ship only, not from other ships. It was Akainu's crime.

Gorousei killed researchers to prevent a bigger war where more people could die, that's not killing for fun, they had a reason, and they listened the researchers and then they give order to kill them, researchers know what they were doing is wrong, but they still secretly did it against the World Government.

I didn't say they are good people, I disagreed when you said they are WORSE than Blackbeard, that's what I disagreed.

I said Gorousei are not like the other slaver Celestial Dragons, until they show us Gorousei tortures slaves for fun, your point is baseless. The only worse people who are worse than Blackbeard is the Celestial Dragons who has slaves and tortures slaves, and possibly Akainu. And Shanks is not talking with them. So again, your point is baseless.

Any marine admiral (such as Sengoku or Aokiji) could talk with Gorousei, that doesn't make them worse than Blackbeard. That's what Shanks is doing.

When did i said this?
I was referring to paper champ, lol, try to understand.
 
#77
Again, you've no basis that Akainu received direct order to do that. Aokiji didn't even know that and he was surprised, why would Akainu received an order that Aokiji wouldn't know? There is a reason why Aokiji blames Akainu. They specifically said the fire came from Akainu's ship only, not from other ships. It was Akainu's crime.

Gorousei killed researchers to prevent a bigger war where more people could die, that's not killing for fun, they had a reason, and they listened the researchers and then they give order to kill them, researchers know what they were doing is wrong, but they still secretly did it against the World Government.


I didn't say they are good people, I disagreed when you said they are WORSE than Blackbeard, that's what I disagreed.

I said Gorousei are not like the other slaver Celestial Dragons, until they show us Gorousei tortures slaves for fun, your point is baseless. The only worse people who are worse than Blackbeard is the Celestial Dragons who has slaves and tortures slaves, and possibly Akainu. And Shanks is not talking with them. So again, your point is baseless.


I was referring to paper champ, lol, try to understand.
You realize that the "war" they are trying to prevent is a "war" that will be against the WG were they lose control? They aren't "trying" to save lives here lmao. Have you read the last 1000 chapters of this manga? Do you even understand the concept of the Revolutionaries? Of what Enies Lobby entailed? Of the Reverie and Im?

I'm done here this is silly
 
#78
You realize that the "war" they are trying to prevent is a "war" that will be against the WG were they lose control? They aren't "trying" to save lives here lmao. Have you read the last 1000 chapters of this manga? Do you even understand the concept of the Revolutionaries? Of what Enies Lobby entailed? Of the Reverie and Im?

I'm done here this is silly
Yes I agree it's silly when you accuse people for doing something they never did.

Come back later when they actually show Gorousei tortures slaves like the other Celestial Dragons, we just see there are exceptions amongst the Celestial Dragons (Mjosgard, Doffy's father), and you are still acting they are all the same.

And again, I didn't say Gorousei are good people, I said they are not worse than Blackbeard until we see them acting like slaver Celestial Dragons. Shanks is talking with Gorousei is no different than Sengoku or Fujitora is talking with Gorousei. Infact, Fujitora is even serving under Akainu, that should be even worse than just talking with Gorousei, but we know Fujitora is a good guy, so it's politics.
 
#79
I'm among the ones who think Shanks is on a mainly protagonistic point of view, role model to Luffy, saving WB, etc.

But about Yakuza theory and that Jirocho guy, wow. If Shanks actually made the underworld network thing and moving chess pieces like WG army and revo army to fight each other while he does his own mystery agenda, it's going to amaze me as well. The number 489, the pun "Dirty God", maybe we can call the title "Sinful God" to give it more dramatic effect? I'm wholly agree about Shanks having a strategic and tactical character, that he's playing various sides and groups to fulfill his own motivation, A really good read.
 
#80
Yes I agree it's silly when you accuse people for doing something they never did.

Come back later when they actually show Gorousei tortures slaves like the other Celestial Dragons, we just see there are exceptions amongst the Celestial Dragons (Mjosgard, Doffy's father), and you are still acting they are all the same.

And again, I didn't say Gorousei are good people, I said they are not worse than Blackbeard until we see them acting like slaver Celestial Dragons. Shanks is talking with Gorousei is no different than Sengoku or Fujitora is talking with Gorousei. Infact, Fujitora is even serving under Akainu, that should be even worse than just talking with Gorousei, but we know Fujitora is a good guy, so it's politics.
Do you even understand the definition of accountability? And no, Fujitora:

1. Talked to Kings who revoked the Shichibukai status, not the Gorosei

2. And Fujitora talking to Gorosei would not be weird because he DOES serve them, even though he is a good man. Marines serve the WG. Shanks doesn't. Thats the difference.


Not everything is black and white. What IS weird is Shanks isn't forced to serve the Gorosei and talks to them. Weird defense though bro. Apparently the Gorosei talking about mass murder (i.e. a PURGE) means nothing to you. Cool
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@Erkan12 Shanks is a PIRATE, the very thing the World Government and Marines stand against! Of course Fujitora talking to them is different from Shanks talking to them!
 
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