We were obviously talking about damage deal to Kaido.
Both Luffy and Zoro didn't do significant damage until 1010
Yea Zoro saved Luffy, that's because Luffy was the one who engaged in 1v1 against Kaido primarily. So yeah, he needed more saves.
Which hardcore Luffy fan admits chapter 1000 Zoro > chapter 1000 Luffy?
I'm more of a Zoro fan and I don't think that. Zoro had better attack power and defence, Luffy had better CQC and mobility, they were overall in same tier.
This is about what they achieved before aCoC. Luffy achieved nothing, Zoro achieved the greatest offensive feat in the world - a scar.
And Zoro dealt significant damage before the scar as well, when he cut Kaido so badly that he spit blood and Luffy out.
No, Luffy needed more saves because he is sloppy and drops his guard, just like Zoro warned him about it.
Sentinel, Monkey D Theories, Psychiatrist, Rmstorm and so on, they all admitted that Luffy cannot compare to rooftop Zoro.
And how could he... Rooftop existed because of Zoro, the Emperors couldnt beat anyone. The moment Zoro went down, Luffy was KOed.
You gotta explain this to me, how does a guy who gets hit countless times ends up better in CQC than a guy who never gets hit?
How can Luffy possibly be better in CQC while Zoro is best at that in the whole world... Mobility is not a point against Zoro.
Of the two, only one was mobile enough to react to Hakai while the other watched helplessly.
Why else did Kaido say "damn brat you are conqueror too" after Asura?
Implication is quite obvious here IMO.
Anime pretty clearly showed it through aura colours as well.
Because he was injured enough to leave a scar and he automatically assumed it was due to CoC. Zoro literally said No to him.
No CoC lightning trails. During their clashes it was a regular clash mark instead of no-touch that should be if there was aCoC.
Forget the anime, there is no proof whatsoever in the manga about it.
Because Luffy engaged in 1v1 for the most part with Kaido, while Zoro didn't engage in 1v1 until chapter 1010
Nobody in the world?
KEK, Mihawk will show Zoro his place once that fight happens. Zoro will need to improve his CQC mid fight to win that.
As for amongst SHs, Zoro had better CQC until Luffy got FS. Zoro will have better CQC by end, because Zoro is bound to get FS or some variant of advanced observation haki sooner or later.
But......not currently IMO.
But given how Zoro is very hard to get hit, I can respect your view as well. Agree to disagree.
No... Luffy used 6 named attacks, Zoro used 4. He didnt engage much more in 1vs1 more than Zoro did.
Engaging more =/= better at CQC. Especially when you consider a fact that Luffy couldnt clash with Kaido before aCOC while Zoro did.
Yes, nobody in the world is better at CQC than Zoro, that's why nobody gets to achieve a clean hit on him and Mihawk is the last one who would achieve that. Zoro cannot allow himself to take clean hits from a guy like Mihawk so he has to be good enough to not be hit even once. Swordsmen are best CQC fighters by default and Santoryu/Kyutoryu Zoro takes all that to a whole another level.
Zoro's CQC skills didnt improve in any fight and they wont improve against Mihawk either.
Zoro will never get FS and he will still remain better at CQC than Luffy because not even FS makes Luffy good enough to not get hit.
Zoro has advanced CoO since Alabasta - nobody in the world has shown the ability to detect inanimate objects that carry no intent.
I simply dont get how you can consider the guy who gets hit countless times better at CQC than a guy who gets hit never.
ou missed my point. I am not even saying that your perspective about Zoro is wrong.
You may say that Oda scrapping and sidelining Zoro subplots in his arc is irrelevant (copium).
Point is simply that current Oda doesn't care enough about Zoro anymore than just having him be strong enough to clear misfits out of Luffy's way.
You know the implication of this.
Almost everything you said about Zoro here is related his plot/character - if Oda scraps/sidelines Zoro's subplots in his own arc, what hope do you have that Oda will keep in mind the things you mentioned?
Heck, even all subplot that KAIDO had going on in his own damn arc was scrapped, when dude had potential to surpass even the likes of Doflamingo in character/narrative. Half chapter of a half assed backstory is all he got.
Current Oda is a former shell of his self and doesn't give a single fuck about anyone other than Luffy.
It's not copium, it is irrelevant according to Oda himself. If it was relevant, he would have done it.
If he didnt care he wouldnt tie Zoro up to almost every plotline in Wano, as irrelevant as they might overall be.
Instead he would create plotlines for Luffy but the reality is that Luffy had no plotlines in Wano whatsoever, other than facing Kaido.
Oda had Zoro say a couple of times - "this has got nothing to do with me" during Wano and turns out he was right.
It is not hope, it is a clear path. Dude literally used entire Wano to work on Zoro's 5th - the path of Hell. Considering that he ended up King of Hell, I would say mission accomplished and everything proceeds according to the plan and we are heading towards the last path - the realm of Gods. As expected from the Demon god to shine in the path of God. Zoro's development proceeds as expected and focuses on Power as it should for a guy who represents power and wills it god form into this world.
Who says that he is done with Kaido? He never awakened so he might still have plans for him. If he gave a fuck about Luffy he would give him plotlines in Wano but instead it was like he didnt even exist outside of battle with Kaido. Literally got to do nothing.
Current Luffy would need just one attempt at King, and it would be a mid diff at worst.
What if his durability is above Kaido's? Kaido is above in every other stat. Advanced conqueror's is the requirement to damage defence mode King, and Luffy has the tools to defeat King.
Since he pulled aCoC, he needed 3 attempts or 5 if you count 2 KOes during G5 to beat exhausted Kaido who isnt as tough as King.
And King face tanked slashes from Zoro himself in flame OFF mode. Luffy beating King is not possible, even now. He is one Seraphim away from proving that he cant do any damage to him. And Luffy's reactions and Haki barriers arent good enough to survive King's jackpot like Zoro did.
Because durability is what Kaido is famous for, not for his other stats and King beats him at it. Durability was Luffy's main problem, not other stats. And King is on another level in durability and you think Luffy mid diffs at worst... No, aCoC is useless, Zoro literally said if the flames are on it is useless to attack. Even if he catches King outside of flame mode, he is hitting hard like Zoro to end him in one move.
He got 30 broken bones from that. Top tiers can do better.
Kaido is a lot stronger than King
I don't ignore context, hence why I have Kaido high-extreme diffing Luffy in a pure 1v1. Giving Kaido a high-extreme diff is still more than what current Zoro can do who can maybe push Kaido to a mid diff
Big Fist from Sanjuan Wolf won't have island level advanced conqueror's haki along with it
Top tiers cant do better than Zoro, Zoro is the one with the world's best feats and top tiers dont get Zoro's feats.
Nobody ever will get to face off against something like Hakai and that's portrayal that only Zoro will have in the entire story.
The only man who got to stop two top tiers while it took 3 admirals to stop one punch from Whitebeard, lol...
And he did that before haki upgrades which just makes it more ridiculous and the fact that he slashes Kaido open after that makes it even crazier.
For someone who is "a lot stronger than King" he certainly didnt prove that against Zoro who had a far easier time with sloppy Kaido than with non-sloppy tougher version King. Two Emperors couldnt give Zoro as good of a fight as King did.
If you dont ignore context then dont say Luffy beat a Yonko as if it's something he can achieve when you know he cant.
Kaido is not good enough to push Zoro to extreme diff, just like nobody else can push him to it. He cant stop Zoro from hitting him and he has doubled down on firepower with aCoC and King of Hell and the only improvement from a scar is killing Kaido which is not much of a challenge considering he split even a Lunarian.
Sanjuan Wolf if he coated himself into full body Armament would have bigger haki feat than any other normal-sized character could. That's how retarded the size scaling is. His haki compared to his fist is rather small. Zoro is leaking that much haki while being a thousand times smaller. That's a true flex, relative size matters. You can praise him for being big, not his haki which is small, compared to the size of his fist otherwise you can praise SJW for coating his fist and using more armament than anyone else, lol.
Luffy fans are wrong, I am not a Luffy fan.
Luffy fans pretend like he is always a tier above. While an unbiased take is that, Zoro is in same tier as Luffy most of the time. And when he isn't, he will get a powerup that will put him in same tier as Luffy.
Why ignore context?
In Dresrossa they were same tier. Beginning of Wano Luffy is a tier above Zoro. Luffy came off with a powerup from WCI.
Zoro did catchup after getting Enma and training with it for like 2+ weeks.
I am not saying you are Luffy fan or not, I am saying what they tend to convince themselves into.
Oda has shown 3 times that Luffy is not stronger than Zoro, for every stretch of the sea they sailed and they still think otherwise...
You got it wrong, it is not Zoro who is getting PUs to catch up to Luffy, it is Luffy who is eating PUs trying to catch up to Zoro.
Luffy is the one who get more PUs than anyone else in the world. Since TS, Luffy pulled 8 PUs, Zoro pulled 4.
Twice more PUs and he still cant be as powerful as Zoro. It cant be more obvious because he isnt meant to be more powerful than god manifestation of Power which Zoro's Demon God is. Zoro is the representative of Power in this story, not Luffy or anyone else.
How are they the same tier in DR when FS, ID CoA PUs later he still failed to match Zoro who didnt get a single PU since TS?
You cant throw stuff like this around without actually thinking if it makes any sense whatsoever...
You do understand that Enma replaced Shusui and made Zoro weaker because he constantly kept back because of it?
Zoro didnt get stronger due to Enma, be became weaker. Two weaks of training resulted in nothing except preventing Enma from taking his haki. And even while holding back he outperformed Luffy who got Snakeman, Boundman, FS and ID COA...
I am not sure if casuals realize just how bad Luffy looks in comparison... I guess not.
What if Oda makes Luffy stronger at EoS? This is 99% going to happen.
Would you rather have that and no plotlines for Zoro? Or would you rather have that and some plotlines for Zoro exploring his demon god/Asrua form or legend of WSS etc?
He didnt make him stronger in East Blue.
He didnt make him stronger in Paradise.
He didnt make him stronger in New World.
But hey, maybe at EOS he will make freedom more powerful than power itself... lol
You know it will never happen because Zoro is One Piece's strongest character, designed to be so from the very start.
Thanks to Vegapunk, we already know what Demon God is - a manifestation of desire. Power itself took god form thanks to Zoro's will.
:cheers:
