Questions & Mysteries The subconscious scheme of those who are putting admirals and Mihawk above all

zaman

zaman

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#81
#81
nik87 said:
1. But arent Admirals relevant to the Void Century while you are saying that they arent? What if Mihawk is Imu-sama?
No, the reason why Roger cannot be beaten by Mihawk is because he isnt alive in Mihawk's era. Mihawk was a teenager when Roger died. Their best never overlapped so it can never be tested but considering that Zoro will face Mihawk instead of Roger, the answer is clear.
2. There was no tension between Mihawk and Zoro in Baratie either, they werent enemies either, they saw each other for the first time.
All of it is irrelevant and the only thing both of them want is to be the strongest while only one can be, that's what doesnt change.
His title is one of the very few indicators that one top tier is stronger than another, only the WSx title wielders get that luxury.

But Zoro does have a CoC already, he implied it back in Fishman Island aside from saying that his willpower is greater than Luffy's back in first few chapters of the manga. While one is aiming for WSS nobody is aiming for WSC and WSM, seems like WSS is special.
It doesnt, Chinjao has CoC, Law is D, both are barely relevant characters and story can go on the same without them.

Mihawk is relevant because he has been tied to 2nd main character of the story since the very beginning. The story is about Strawhats accomplishing their dreams and everything connected to their dreams is relevant. CoC and D clan are there just to enrich the story and are widely spread and far from unique. Things like Black Blades are far more unique than either CoC or D clan members.
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If Mihawk is Imu sama, then he is, but for now everything leads to something far away from this.
So you are saying that Zorro is stronger than luffy since he will be stronger than the stronger individual of the last generation?
So, in his era, WB who was equal to Roger, wasn't WSM because Mihawk was stronger?

How come Zoro has COC ? We need more proofs than that. If he has, he becomes relevant to the plot and will be among the top tier of the tier EOS otherwise only a mere top tier.
Law for example, is very relevant : Without his purpose, no fight against Kaido, against doflamingo, luffy would have died also etc...

Most of SH dreams are eventually linked to Void century, with allblue etc.
And the rest is imo a help to cope.
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swarna said:
I understood that part clearly. The glass ceiling isn't a substantiated concept, however. It's pure speculation that Chinjao hasn't tried as hard as other pirates in a way that would affect his growth rate. In fact, most people would agree in saying that Chinjao's "ceiling" is lower than admirals/Mihawk. You won't be able to convince many people that Chinjao would've become stronger than admirals if he only he "tried" for bigger goals.
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neurologically wise, it has a good impact tho. it could be an explanation.
But, especially here, my point was to defend the idea that given you are in a similar tier - to shut down any discrepancy because Oda has a lot - you can't be stronger eventually than someone who is blood related to the main plot, ie COC user usually. And everything leads to that.
I wouldn't want to create such a thread if i didn't saw on a daily basic a wanking on individuals who are irrelevant plot wise - compared to those i said -, and even factually weaker than the one they are opposed to - Mihawk vs WB/Roger and even Oden imo, and Admirals vs Yonkos - in a way that affect the forum badly.

And even, we can argue that among people from the same family, not all are gifted the same way, so Chinjao beeing linked to the void century by his COC doesn't mean he is as gifted as another who is from a D family directly, or the descendant from Joyboy or whatever other explanation related to that given by Oda. My main point was to do distinguish in a large scale : From those who are relevant to the void century, and those who aren't, and the consequences of it.

And funnily enough i see my own lackings, as much as i saw it in the teachers theories that i read, and that i made fun of because of their inability to create a perfect thought's system - despite beeing very famous and admired for it. But it's in our inner essence to be imperfect.
 
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nik87

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
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#82
#82
zaman said:
So you are saying that Zorro is stronger than luffy since he will be stronger than the stronger individual of the last generation?
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Luffy will not be the strongest individual of the last generation. Where did you get that from?
Yes, Zoro has always been stronger than Luffy except when Oda used magical flip-flops to make Luffy appear equal.
zaman said:
So, in his era, WB who was equal to Roger, wasn't WSM because Mihawk was stronger?
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A>B, B>C, so A>C has never worked in One Piece.
WB can be stronger than Mihawk and equal to Roger.
That doesnt place Roger above Mihawk.
zaman said:
How come Zoro has COC ? We need more proofs than that. If he has, he becomes relevant to the plot and will be among the top tier of the tier EOS otherwise only a mere top tier.
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Because he would have taken over as a captain if Luffy didnt have CoC.
Why would Luffy need CoC to stay captain in post TS when he didnt need it to stay captain in pre TS?
zaman said:
Law for example, is very relevant : Without his purpose, no fight against Kaido, against doflamingo, luffy would have died also etc...
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All those fights are doable without Law existing. Write him out of the story and adjust accordingly.
zaman said:
Most of SH dreams are eventually linked to Void century, with allblue etc.
And the rest is imo a help to cope.
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Are you sure that Ryuma isnt from Void Century?
 
CbShadow

CbShadow

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#83
#83
zaman said:
You can't answer either with precision to the last technical questions because you don't have enough proofs, nor is it relevant.
But to answer your main point, i already did : To help to cope for those who aren't COC users/D individuals, and in a larger scale those who are trying hard but are fate-locked because they aren't fate-chosen.
Here is a question for you, that EVERYBODY can answer with clear precision no matter their bias :
Who is stronger : Mihawk or prime Roger ?
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You can't answer the question either and the reason is because there's still a lot that has to be explained and revealed. So you can't say that Mihawk or any of my questions aren't relevant just because they may not be relevant to what's going on right now in the story.

Kaido was irrelevant until Oda made him relevant. We never knew how relevant he was to the story when we learned about him earlier in the manga.

You keep talking about CoC/D but if you can't answer my questions about the black blade then saying the answer is CoC/D means nothing.

At this time we don't know who's stronger. They could have been even. Roger was not the WSM. That is not a requirement to be pirate king.

I don't understand what you mean by this "fate locked" because if you're "fate chosen" aren't you locked into that fate. It sounds like to me if you wasn't locked in you would have more freedom.
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Ryuma didn't have CoC, based on what we know, and he was not a D but he opposite celestial dragons. He even beat them or whoever they sent after the country's gold. Did these celestial dragons calls the voice century because they were scared more people like Ryuma was going to rise against them so they wanted the world to forget what he did? Remember, Oden clan records history.

And it's time we don't know.
 
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swarna

swarna

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#85
#85
zaman said:
And even, we can argue that among people from the same family, not all are gifted the same way, so Chinjao beeing linked to the void century by his COC doesn't mean he is as gifted as another who is from a D family directly, or the descendant from Joyboy or whatever other explanation related to that given by Oda. My main point was to do distinguish in a large scale : From those who are relevant to the void century, and those who aren't, and the consequences of it.
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CoC users and D's are indeed over-represented when talking about the strongest individuals in the verse. However correlation=/= causation. The CoC/D trait is not necessarily the reason they are stronger.

Additionally, when you have a different average in some trait between groups of people that's a very irrelevant point to bring up when discussing two actual individuals. For example, if I observe that in general people who are taller have a higher income it doesn't make sense to bring up that fact in a discussion regarding who has higher income between me and Mark Zuckerberg. The fact that I'm taller than Zuckerberg is completely irrelevant as soon as you narrow down the comparison to 2 people. You would look at the real clues as to our income levels like the fact he is the CEO and co-founder of a company that makes a lot of money.

This is why when comparing Akainu vs. Kaido or Mihawk vs. Shanks it is irrelevant to cite CoC/D as a reason for strength superiority. Clearly, there is a trend of CoC users/D holders being strong, but those traits have no actual impact in the context of a fight or physical strength (barring advanced CoC perhaps). Those characters' other feats, portrayal, and statements/observations from third-parties become far more valuable.
 
zaman

zaman

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#86
#86
CbShadow said:
I don't understand what you mean by this "fate locked" because if you're "fate chosen" aren't you locked into that fate. It sounds like to me if you wasn't locked in you would have more freedom.
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Just to answer to this, because for the rest we have for now to agree to disagree, time will tells tbh.
Everybody, has more or less, a "chosen" fate, there are only questionables ways to soften it.
So the main point is to know where you are, and what you can expect, and overall, the more your fate is high, the better it is. That's how i see it. When i say they are fate locked it means fate locked to not be the strongest ones among their tier, no matter how.
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swarna said:
CoC users and D's are indeed over-represented when talking about the strongest individuals in the verse. However correlation=/= causation. The CoC/D trait is not necessarily the reason they are stronger.

Additionally, when you have a different average in some trait between groups of people that's a very irrelevant point to bring up when discussing two actual individuals. For example, if I observe that in general people who are taller have a higher income it doesn't make sense to bring up that fact in a discussion regarding who has higher income between me and Mark Zuckerberg. The fact that I'm taller than Zuckerberg is completely irrelevant as soon as you narrow down the comparison to 2 people. You would look at the real clues as to our income levels like the fact he is the CEO and co-founder of a company that makes a lot of money.

This is why when comparing Akainu vs. Kaido or Mihawk vs. Shanks it is irrelevant to cite CoC/D as a reason for strength superiority. Clearly, there is a trend of CoC users/D holders being strong, but those traits have no actual impact in the context of a fight or physical strength (barring advanced CoC perhaps). Those characters' other feats, portrayal, and statements/observations from third-parties become far more valuable.
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What i basically understand from your "narrowing" point is that, exception do exist, and they are more prone to exist on shorter experiences. Which is true, you won't have exceptions as a rule, as a tendency, otherwise it won't be exception.
But what i was trying to say is that, for all we know the strongest ones are all COC/D individuals, and there weren't a case where among top tier, of same tier roughtly, a non D/COC wins against the opposite.

Otherwise i would like to say that i don't really believe in causation - it's a metaphysical presumption that isn't proved, and as everything it's a belief, and i prefer to put my belief in other things that i consider more solid. but rather in probabilities, and in this it helps me in my point, since, as far as we know there is 0/100 of shown individual that are top tier without COC/D that are stronger than their COC/D counterpart.
 
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swarna

swarna

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#89
#89
zaman said:
What i basically understand from your "narrowing" point is that, exception do exist, and they are more prone to exist on shorter experiences. Which is true, you won't have exceptions as a rule, as a tendency, otherwise it won't be exception.
But what i was trying to say is that, for all we know the strongest ones are all COC/D individuals, and there weren't a case where among top tier, of same tier roughtly, a non D/COC wins against the opposite.

Otherwise i would like to say that i don't really believe in causation - it's a metaphysical presumption that isn't proved, and as everything it's a belief, and i prefer to put my belief in other things that i consider more solid. but rather in probabilities, and in this it helps me in my point, since, as far as we know there is 0/100 of shown individual that are top tier without COC/D that are stronger than their COC/D counterpart.
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They aren't exceptions. Correlations in general populations don't inform individual comparisons when real factors of causation are present/known. They only help in situations where you know nothing about someone. If you tell me one person is 6'1" and another person is 5'5" and asked me to bet on whose income is higher, I'd bet on the taller person. If you instead add the fact that the 6'1" person has 1k sitting in their bank account while the 5'5" person has 1 million, then the "height" factor instantly becomes near-zero despite having a very clear correlation in the general population. This is because height doesn't actually directly cause income advantages whereas a person with a high bank balance is guaranteed to at least have a sizable income coming in from just their interest rate.

You've additionally got circular logic going on. Since you already think that emperors>admirals, you think CoC/D is an important factor in strength. And now because you now think CoC/D signifies strength superiority, you think emperors>admirals. However, we don't have a clear case for any initial assertion within this circle, so nothing in the circle is necessarily valid.
 
S

Sword God Ryuma

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#90
#90
zaman said:
It does because :
1.Beeing relevant to the plot, and precisely to the void century means you have way more capabilities, than will never have another top tier that hasn't got this relevancy. And even faster growth power wise - this explains luffy's growth. And that no matter what, for example, Roger who was a swordman without black knife but with COC, will never ever be beaten by Mihawk, or whoever, be it even the famous "WSS".
2. If it was about "storytelling" which is different from the meaning of story or plot, Oda should have ended his job, because, there is not any tension anymore between Mihawk and Zoro, because there were supposed to be ennemies, pirates, and the former helped the latter to be trained, because the latter, without any dignity of a swordman, begged him to death.
And overall as i said, this title is only a cope for those who haven't got COC, and thus irrelevant to the main plot. This is not a coincidence that the only one aiming for WSS is the one who isn't a COC user thus linked to void century.

All in all what i'm saying is that, Having COC, beeing a D means everything, and is the main point for the plot, while here in this forum for some everything is reverted and irrelevant individuals blood and plot wise, no matter how much they train are fate-blocked, and are wanked because those who do it are themselves blocked by their own fate, and are trying subconsciously to cope with it.
This was the point of my thread.
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So now Don chin is stronger than Mihawk cause he had CoC?
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nik87 said:
Luffy will not be the strongest individual of the last generation. Where did you get that from?
Yes, Zoro has always been stronger than Luffy except when Oda used magical flip-flops to make Luffy appear equal.

A>B, B>C, so A>C has never worked in One Piece.
WB can be stronger than Mihawk and equal to Roger.
That doesnt place Roger above Mihawk.

Because he would have taken over as a captain if Luffy didnt have CoC.
Why would Luffy need CoC to stay captain in post TS when he didnt need it to stay captain in pre TS?

All those fights are doable without Law existing. Write him out of the story and adjust accordingly.

Are you sure that Ryuma isnt from Void Century?
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Zoro was not always stronger then Luffy. They were equal up until Enies lobby where Luffy moved ahead. Zoro caught up at TB. Luffy moved ahead from those 3 islamds he went too while Luffy was going through hell and fighting strong opponents. If Zoro would of went to impel, and MF they would still be equal. Post timeskip idk who stronger
 
Tejas

Tejas

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#91
#91
The buddha said:
Because the basic magma nameless fist that was going to be aimed at Luffy before timeskip is Akainu's strongest attack right? 😴
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And a nameless non blackened punch is not Garp's strongest either, but Akainu was shown in full bloodlust going all out and still did less than casual Garp punch.
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Sword God Ryuma said:
So now Don chin is stronger than Mihawk cause he had CoC?
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Yes, he casually replicated Mihawk's best feat
 
XGoldrogeRX

XGoldrogeRX

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#95
#95
some dumbass even say zoro will be stronger than oden after wano. what a joke
oden was a man who tamed new world alongside roger and rayleigh. he fight all bigshots include kaido. stongest wano samurai that reputation known till kind like akainu sengoku and roger's ears


where zoro at this point? fight gifters, pleasures and team up with drake against non tobiroppo enemy. he couldnt even compete with sanji in bounty. when 18 yrs old oden mastered enma and been holding enma for 22 years but zoro just acquired it and ppl think he already equal to oden. lmfao.

sometimes i wonder how these clowns thinking like that.
 
HA001

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
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#97
#97
knuckleheadninja said:
This thread is so sensible.
Finally someone addressing these issues.
Oda made a simple structure and people can't understand it.
Also people should stop using a Black Blade as a standard of strength just because your favorite character has it doesn't mean it is the strongest thing you can achieve in Op.
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Yes he made mihawk wss > swordsman shanks. Its not difficult.
 
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