This conversation got a lot bigger than I originally thought it would lol. But I am enjoying it, I hope you are as well YTW.
You are making random example of two Generals that aren't linked while I'm using a direct comparison.
GHM straight up made Tou huge deal while having witnessed Moubu up close too. That is different Lee.
Do you honestly think Gohoumei is not worried about facing Moubu lol? Wei has no one who can stop him.
And you are inferring things from Houmei’s statement that were never stated nor implied, which is why I brought up a General with no weaknesses who is clearly inferior to Generals that do have weaknesses. Weaknesses by themselves don’t mean much when the overall talent level of a General is higher than that of another General. And Moubu’s talent is clearly above Qin 6 level from everything we know while Tou’s talent is at Qin 6 level.
I named you the Strongest Generals of past and current Greatest General Riboku, there's nothing hyping them up but their strategies. Sure they can be strong but that is not what make them the greatest. Their ability to command, outdo their enemies and manipulate the entire battlefield as well as their palm is why they are the Greatest of Era.
It’s funny that you say this since Riboku has not achieved a single victory after the loss of Houken, not one, and Riboku’s current strategy for the defense of Zhao is heavily focused on the fact that he now has access to Shibashou’s retinue of monsters lol.
Part of what makes Riboku great is the fact that he knows how to exploit the powerful martial commanders at his disposal. There was not a single instance in this manga where Riboku achieved something impressive without basing his strategies on a powerful martial commander. Defeating Ouki? He needed Houken for that. Defeating Duke Hyou? Duke Hyou easily overcame Riboku’s Ryuudou and was slain by Houken. Gekishin? Riboku’s strategic move of relocating his HQ was easily read by Gekishin, and Houken won the battle for him. Riboku’s current Zhao defensive strategy? Now heavily predicated on the help of Shibashou and his Seika commanders. In fact Riboku’s defensive strategic actions would not have worked without Kansaro and Jiaga rerouting 150k Qin soldiers purely through a surprise martial attack.
Alright we may not know enough about Previous Qin 6 but Riboku is prime example we have right in front of our eyes. Like can you imagine any General in this manga doubting Riboku chances of winning against any General on pure Strategies alone with enough preparation? No one will.
Like I said, Riboku needs martial commanders for his strategies to work. In the current battle against Kanki, Riboku has several dominant martial commanders with him including Bananji and two of Shibashou’s commanders. Riboku’s strategies would always, always fail without his access to martial commanders.
In fact this has always been a major theme of the Kingdom manga, overly logical Generals losing to martial Generals with greater wills and ambitions. Reread Dakan Plains and see how hard Hara forces this message, the entire point of the first major Kingdom battle is that purely logical/strategic Generals will lose to Generals with greater ambition and drive.
You belittle Strategical Generals achievements saying they had Solid Generals managing the win for them. But i ask you one question did Houken make Riboku great or it were other way arround? Did Riboku stop being the Goat when Houken died? No.
I’m not belittling strategy, I am pointing out how essential access to martial commanders is for strategy to work in the first place. Riboku would’ve never become the strongest General in China without utilizing his martial commanders, because strategy alone is not enough to overcome ambition.
In fact Riboku had still whittled down Qin army into a checkmate position and at great disadvantage before the battle even started, without the help of Houken and with different set of General he had when he defeated Ouki.
But the Qin army were not checkmated lol. Ouki and Moubu had the Zhao completely on the back foot, achieving a series of overwhelming victories despite being at a huge disadvantage. The overwhelmingly strategic Fuuki was defeating by the purely martial Hi Shin Unit, and this was after Fuji’s strategies had failed against Kanou, who used his martial strength to plow through straight to Fuuki’s HQ. This was the same Fuuki that Ouki called “extremely brilliant” (I just reread the arc and yes I swear, Ouki calls Fuuki extremely brilliant lol). Then strategy failed the Zhao center for two days straight as Moubu brutalized the defensive tactics of Rihaku and Kousonryuu. The Zhao were being defeated by the Qin so badly that Chousou retreats entirely. So the Qin were far from “check-mated”, no idea where you got that idea.
And in fact, like I said before, if Riboku would’ve not had Houken, Ouki would’ve broken the Zhao encirclement of Moubu and regrouped the Qin army, and would’ve continued to defeat the Zhao even with a weaker army. Chousou’s strategy could not stop Tou alone, add Ouki into the mix and the Zhao are finished.
So Riboku’s strategy at Bayou most certainly did not checkmate the Qin army, and his strategies would have failed anyway if not for Houken being able to check Ouki.
So you can't take the credits away just cause Riboku, RSJ, Ousen may have had solid Generals under em.
They would never have achieved the fame they did without access to their martial commanders. I explained this in great detail with Riboku but the same applies to Rinshoujou, Koshou, and Ousen. Obviously strategy is extremely important but you are outright dismissing the crucial importance of having powerful warriors at your disposal.
Kanmei, Ganmou and Oukotsu were never considered the Greatest Generals. Hakuki, Gaku Ki and Riboku do and we got clear hints they were primarily Strategiests.
Kanmei has a more successful service record than Riboku does, for sure. Riboku has suffered a ton of defeats actually. Kanmei fought for decades, achieved over a hundred victories and was never defeated once. Oukotsu’s name is still feared decades after his death, he was name-dropped just recently by another state when the Q6 were revived. Koshou was not.
Regardless, Hakuki was a heavily martial General. We know this from Shouheikun’s words, and I’ve already discussed Riboku in detail. Gakuki also had Gekishin who was quite strong in his youth, but we know almost nothing of Gakuki anyway.
Ganmou has an Advisor/Strategiest helping him. Moubu require the help of SHK at times with strategies. Kanmie battle info is not clear how or against what Generals he won the battles. So no they didn't manage to win all battles without strategies.
Kanmei defeated Oukotsu overwhelmingly, any claims that we don’t know who Kanmei fought are irrelevant from that point alone. This isn’t like Mougou who the Qin only used when the other states had no Great Generals to defend against him, Kanmei defeated one of the greatest Qin Great Generals of all time in an overwhelming fashion.
Gaimou has the most run-of-the-mill strategist serving him lol. No earthly idea why you even brought him up.
Moubu required Shouheikun’s help exactly one time and Moubu haters act like Shouheikun has baby-sat Moubu for his entire military career when Ouki even stated that Moubu’s knowledge of warfare ran deep. And this was Bayou Moubu too lol.
Zhou is country with many talented Generals but is being attacked by Qin rn. Houken or even Moubu can't save Zhou despite having similar Generals to command while Riboku can this is simply why Strategical head will always be>>Martial might in Kingdom Lee.
Riboku can’t save Zhao either, Zhao will in fact fall under his watch lol. Let’s make that clear. Ousen said it himself, all it takes is buffoonish leadership to collapse a state, the strongest General in China cannot save a state from incompetent leadership.
Sei didn't outdo Riboku by martial might. I don't know how you got such an idea. Sei leadership skills awakened the army to keep pushing for their limits, a number of good strategiests were sent by SHK to command these men at walls.
What do you think Awakening is Yotanwa lol? It’s when you amp the martial power of your army to absurd levels. Even as Riboku bombarded Sai with strategy after strategy, tactic after tactic, Sai’s army of old men and children repelled an army of elites for eight days straight solely because Sei amped their martial power through awakening.
Ten and Kaioku’s tactics played a part, but Sai wouldn’t have held for even one day had Sei not been there to awaken its people.
Moubu instead would've gotten the men instant killed had he been there. Like how do you picture Moubu to fight in the scenario, he'd be waste or would open the gates to meet Riboku on open Battlefield. With numbers and men city had Moubu wouldn't survive few hours, much less stalls days long for help to arrive.
Any General in China would’ve gotten the people of Sai killed. Riboku said it himself, no General was capable of defending Sai the way Sei did. Only a King was capable of achieving since a feat, and even then Shoubunkun said even great Kings like King Sho could not have defended Sai like Sei did. Put the best strategists in China at Sai and Sai falls in less than a day, don’t single Moubu out as if only he could not defend Sai lol. No General could’ve defended Sai in that scenario as stated by Riboku.
Most of decision making to manage that win against Riboku were strategical. El Sei himself deciding to go there as the leader figure, SHK sending Strageists, planning the shifts the breaks, distributing men women old and childrens different roles, and managing the resources same way, El Sei personally visiting the injured to rile them up and the information withheld for Yo Tan to catch Riboku offguard. Just because Riboku also made use of Strategies doesn't make it an example of Martial might vs Strategies.
And yet as Riboku said, no strategist in China was capable of achieving what Sei was achieving. And how did Sei achieve the defense of Sai? He awakened its population, IE amping their martial power as Riboku bombarded Sei with advanced strategies and still failed to take the city for 8 days straight when any strategic defense would have failed after just 1.
In end I'd use Mouten example. Hi Shin unit without a Strategiest stands no chance against Mouten even with better men under him. It has been pointed so many times by Hara such, in fact I'd not bet on Hi Shin Unit winning against Mouten still if we don't count Kyou Kai unit.
Again the argument is not that strategy is irrelevant, the argument is that strategy does not trump martial power in this manga as you seem to be convinced that it does.
But that don't mean Moubu can manage victory against a General of calibre that can match Riboku in strategies. Ousen is Goat and just as Great as Riboku and Ren Pa in China history.
Ousen has yet to achieve the feats that he is historically regarded for. We are not discussing EOS Ousen. He has not proved himself to be of that level yet. We are still discussing Ousen who only fights the battles he knows he can win, and who’s biggest military accomplishment of all time is capturing one city of Zhao, with Ousen himself admitting he would’ve failed if not for the new Qin trio, while Moubu’s biggest accomplishment is defeating one of the strongest Generals in Kingdom history.
