Who is the Number 1 General of Qin right now?

Who is the Number 1 Qin’s General right now?


  • Total voters
    41
#41
I know you understand the difference between saying a General has no weaknesses to exploit, and saying a General is stronger than another. Rei Ou and Houmei never said Tou was above any Qin General, just that he had no weaknesses for them to exploit.
Alright,,, so weakness to exploit for what? To win ofcrs. GHM clearly implied Tou is harder to beat/take on than Moubu.

(Anyway i won't stretch on this much it is Hara buildup for Tou vs GHM later down in the line, and GHM assuming he can beat Moubu doesn't mean he really will. I just wanted to point out to you it is possible since you didn't believe otherwise.)
But you don’t know that they could’ve kept Moubu contained in the long-run. Nobody can know that with certainty. Even Rihaku (famed across all China) and Kousonryuu working together could not contain Moubu.
Containment is different thing Lee, Moubu can blast his way through with brute force that's like speciality of his. Head on he's unstoppable like i know it so well i won't even argue you on this.

Unless Strategiest lure bait and corner Moubu and whittle down his army somehow they simply can't win. I'm just arguing it is not so hard to outplay him when even genuises like Ousen/Kanki, Ouki have been outplayed.
Who said this? On the contrary I feel like every Great General we’ve ever seen has had enormous martial power to use in battle, with very rare exceptions like Rinshoujou and Koshou, and even these two had powerful subordinate commanders who served as their swords.
Hard disagree. Like very little is known about Haku ki and Gaku Ki martial might yet they are considered the greatest and strongest of all Great Generals, and the only thing we know so far about them is they were genius at warfare and strategies. Everyone probably also including you put them amongst the all time Strongest Generals Lee. This alone emphasise Strategies>Martial might especially when it comes to Armies.

Riboku the current Greatest General in Kingdom, didn't depend on his martial might to be famed arround as the greatest in Kingdoms. He could actually be very strong but that is not known to the world isit?

Haku Ki, Gaku Ki, RSJ, Riboku, Ousen, Ren Pa, Ouki none of these were pure brute Generals yet undeniably are the greatest Generals Lee.
“Can be” and army battles can also be dependent on martial power. Strategy and martial power are equally important in warfare, and Moubu has Ousen beat here since his offensive power is above the level that Ousen’s strategic ability is currently at.
Correct, you are agreeing with me. Battles are sometimes determined by strategy, other times they are determined by martial power, and as I have said a few times now, Moubu’s martial power is at a greater level than Ousen’s strategic mind from everything we understand about Kingdom
I don't agree actually. Just because there are still better heads than Ousen present in Manga don't mean any less in this discussion.

It is no where established that one needs to be best in Strategies only then he can take on the strongest in martial might, in fact no such equivalency is there between these two different type of strentghs. Rather considering the Greatest Generals and it is armies battling out in wars Strategies become far more crucial.

I'd amend my previous statement since i now feel i didn't properly convey the point i wanted to put across in my last post. I wanted to tell you martial might overpowering strategies is the anomaly here not that i believe both Strategies and Martial might are similarly important.

This is again why the greatest Generals are foremost best when it comes to stragies while their martial might varies greatly. While the only infamous General of pure martial might was Oukotsu no where named among the greatests.
 
#42
Which is why he’s been stalling out Karin for years at Chu Border right? One of the greatest strategic minds in China and she made 0 progress against Moubu.

Riboku outclassing Moubu is so far out of date, it’s preposterous to even bring that up. May as well say current Shin can’t defeat Chou Garyuu because he struggled against Rinko 10 years ago. Makes 0 sense.
Moubu isn't the one who formed the strategy he just lead the troops he stalled Karin with on Frontline it was Shouheikun who designed the formations and attack plan

Let's say
Karin 100k vs Moubu 100k
Karin would own him he would charge she would set a trap like Riboku and he would be slaughtered that's the problem with Shin

Shin and Moubou shine out in partial combat and moments they can't lead and raise an army from zero against Ousen or Kanki

They need advisors

Riboku owned Moubu pretty hard because Moubu is dumb

It's always problematic Shin develops very fast I don't thin Moubu develops it because Shin is MC

I don't like this martial art it's misleading us in our criteria for an good general

An good general isn't on Frontline it's Ten who is the real general the one who observes all battlefields

Shin is just an man between 10.000 who kills and leads an unit for momentary attacks (instinct types)
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#43
Alright,,, so weakness to exploit for what? To win ofcrs. GHM clearly implied Tou is harder to beat/take on than Moubu.
No, having a weakness to exploit does not make you an easier General to defeat. Kousonryuu of Zhao is an all arounder with no weaknesses to exploit. Who do you think is harder to defeat between Ousen and Kousonryuu? Ousen has weaknesses after all while KSR does not. What about KSR vs Moubu? Will KSR win because he has no weaknesses? Clearly not.

Having no weaknesses is not correlated with who is easier to defeat in battle. Weaknesses are a factor sure but there is much more at play.

Hard disagree. Like very little is known about Haku ki and Gaku Ki martial might yet they are considered the greatest and strongest of all Great Generals, and the only thing we know so far about them is they were genius at warfare and strategies. Everyone probably also including you put them amongst the all time Strongest Generals Lee. This alone emphasise Strategies>Martial might especially when it comes to Armies.
We know that all of the Qin 6 minus Koshou built their legends on their martial prowess. This was explicitly stated by Shouheikun. Ouki also stated that Moubu’s talent as a warrior was probably equivalent to each of the Qin 6’s martial talents (before Ouki had seen Moubu fight himself).

We as the reader may know more of their strategies/tactics, but within Kingdom it has been established that all of the Qin 6 minus Koshou were heavily martial Generals, and even Koshou had Shouheikun as his sword, and Shouheikun’s strength was famed in his youth. 5 of the Qin 6 are heavily known for their martial prowess with the only pure strategist of the group being the exception.

Haku Ki, Gaku Ki, RSJ, Riboku, Ousen, Ren Pa, Ouki none of these were pure brute Generals yet undeniably are the greatest Generals Lee.
I already talked about the Qin 6 all being heavily martial Generals. Koshou was a strategist who had a top tier warrior as his sword. Rinshoujou was a strategist who relied on the strength of his Ten Heroes to shoulder the martial burden of his army. Riboku has taken advantage of a number of extremely powerful warrior generals over the course of his military career including the literal strongest character in the manga by stats. In fact Riboku’s greatest victories were achieved by exploiting Houken. Ousen himself is a powerful warrior and also has powerful warriors serving under him. Renpa has heavily martial warriors in his service including himself. Gakuki had Gekishin who used to slay Bushin constantly, and Gakuki himself is freaking huge so he may have had some fighting ability as well.

In other words, there is not a single renowned Great General in this manga who is known purely for utilizing strategy, even the most strategy reliant Generals like Rinshoujou and Koshou took advantage of powerful warriors because strategy alone is not enough. Having martial power in your service is an absolute necessity.

Meanwhile, I can point to a few Great Generals who rose to prominence solely on martial power and nothing else including Houken who slayed multiple Great Generals without an ounce of military knowledge at his disposal, Kanmei who is the only character in the manga to achieve 100+ victories for Chu while never suffering a single defeat as well as defeating a member of the Qin 6 overwhelmingly, Gaimou who slayed over 100 enemy Generals, Oukotsu, Moubu, etc…

Each of these characters have either average or above average strategists at their command and yet have had extremely successful service records. So the best you can say is that the best Generals in this manga relied both heavily on strategy and martial power, while I can point to dominant martial Great Generals who had no use for strategy at all.

I'd amend my previous statement since i now feel i didn't properly convey the point i wanted to put across in my last post. I wanted to tell you martial might overpowering strategies is the anomaly here not that i believe both Strategies and Martial might are similarly important.
I can’t think of any instances of strategy overcoming martial power aside from Moubu at Bayou which was inconclusive and also irrelevant now that Moubu has grown as a character and is Qin’s highest ranked Great General without utilizing strategy at all.

Duke Hyou defeated Gokei’s strategy at Dakan Plains almost exclusively through martial power.

Riboku used strategy to defeat Ouki, but Ouki himself was also a strategic General, and even then Riboku’s strategy would’ve failed if Houken wasn’t there to hold Ouki at bay.

Strategy failed Riboku at the Coalition War as Sei amped the martial power of literal old men and children to hold off an elite Riboku army, even as Riboku threw the entire book of advanced tactics and strategy at Sai, Sei held the city exclusively by amping the martial power of its citizens since the defensive strategies employed by Ten and Kaioku were inferior to Riboku’s. Again, martial power trumping strategy.

So literally I have no idea where the notion that martial power loses to strategy comes from when in Kingdom the opposite appears to be true. This ain’t irl, this is a manga.

@Blackbeard @Owl Ki what do you guys think of this thread?

Moubu isn't the one who formed the strategy he just lead the troops he stalled Karin with on Frontline it was Shouheikun who designed the formations and attack plan
Shouheikun formulated the defense of Qin by positioning his Generals where he saw fit and then letting them defend accordingly. I have no idea where you got the notion that Shouheikun is micromanaging Moubu’s battle with Karin. Do you have any panel supporting this?

Riboku owned Moubu pretty hard because Moubu is dumb
Moubu has grown astronomically since then in terms of maturity and intelligence. You have read passed Bayou haven’t you? That arc was 550+ chapters ago.

An good general isn't on Frontline it's Ten who is the real general the one who observes all battlefields
A General is an individual who leads his troops to victory. That’s it. Some fo this from the front, some do this from the strategists’ tent. This ain’t irl where all Generals command from the rear, this is a battle manga where plenty of dominant generals lead their troops from the front.
 
#49
Shouheikun formulated the defense of Qin by positioning his Generals where he saw fit and then letting them defend accordingly. I have no idea where you got the notion that Shouheikun is micromanaging Moubu’s battle with Karin. Do you have any panel supporting this?
That's the most important part you guys act like that's not important
SHK destroyed the HQ and set up the defend all Moubu did was SHK told him what did he do he just defended that's nothing especially nothing when Karin slipped past him send her troops right before his nose to conquer Kanyou part which proves what I'm trying to tell you
Defending can anyone you have manpower just fight that's nothing astronomical you guys love this martial art but that's not really important

What SHK did was everything he set up the formation and the position
Moubu did just profiting from SHK if Moubu would set up the defense then Qin would lose


Moubu has grown astronomically since then in terms of maturity and intelligence. You have read passed Bayou haven’t you? That arc was 550+ chapters ago.
Naah that shit with strongest in China lol there is always someone who is stronger that's an lame excuse for not improving your brain

A General is an individual who leads his troops to victory. That’s it. Some fo this from the front, some do this from the strategists’ tent. This ain’t irl where all Generals command from the rear, this is a battle manga where plenty of dominant generals lead their troops from the front.

Those in the front die that's simple an general doesn't take a gun an shoot
Do you see any general in the Ukraine war who shoots with a bazooka in the front or drive a tank ?
I didn't
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#50
Do you see any general in the Ukraine war who shoots with a bazooka in the front or drive a tank ?
I didn't
You haven’t been paying attention because Ukraine’s president has been taking up arms lol.

But irrelevant because like I said, this is a manga, not irl. And in this manga a General leads troops to victory through whatever means he chooses. Most of the time, these characters are heavily martial and I already explained this in detail above.
 
#51
You haven’t been paying attention because Ukraine’s president has been taking up arms lol.

But irrelevant because like I said, this is a manga, not irl. And in this manga a General leads troops to victory through whatever means he chooses. Most of the time, these characters are heavily martial and I already explained this in detail above.
We both know that's PR
All Ukraine Generals are in there "tent"
Generally does it make sense for you that Shin can slay so many opponents in real life he would lose his life its just the author drawing it that way

Moubu killing so many men with his blunt weapon come on dude thats not realistic
 
#52
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung I think people are shitting on some Generals way too hard.

Moubu is being underrated because some folk are treating Moubu like he is a Gaimou style meathead when he really isn't.

Ouki saw Moubu's potential back during the Battle of Bayou back when Moubu was still an arrogant arsehole.

"His understanding of warfare definitely runs deep" is some serious acknowledgement from somebody like Ouki, the same Ouki who has zero time or respect for actual meatheads like Gaimou and Shoumou.

Moubu's feat against Rihaku was actually pretty nutty if you think about it considering he lead a poorly equipped, hastily trained, cobbled together militia force and had them utterly demolish a fully equipped army of professional soldiers.

His use of the Echelon Assault is also worthy of praise. Sure, it was Shouheikan that said to use it but it was Moubu that had to execute a highly complex formation, which he did flawlessly.

Anyway, as for the general question for this thread, I have multiple answers.

I) The best Qin General for martial might is obviously Moubu.

II) The best Qin General for strategy is probably Ousen and I doubt that is going to change.

III) If they all have their actual armies then the best General is Yotanwa since her army is utterly bonkers for how much it can punch above it's weight.

IV) If you gave each Qin General the exact same basic Qin army, used a perfectly flat plains battlefield and pitted them up against each other in different matchups then Moubu actually might be the one who comes out on top more often than not considering what he did with a ragtag militia against a professional army.

I will say that we haven't actually seen Tou actually go all out yet either in tactics or martial might. Hara has been holding this bloke back for a long time, so I suspect that when he is finally unleashed, it will be glorious. :akaman:
 
#53
@Blackbeard @Owl Ki what do you guys think of this thread?
I don't think we necessarily have or rather need a definite answer for that question yet as there's a different field where every Qin Great General excels at, and as good of a measuring stick the General's achievements is, army preparations, terrain advantage, psychological warfare or matchup can almost always alter the outcome.

You have to sit down and specify which conditions that which two 6GG are fighting under then see how they can adapt, that's what truly separates Kingdom scaling from One Piss' shitty one that can be done using a random number generator lol.
 

Warchief Sanji D Goat

Ubel > Frieren and Fern
#55
I gotta say, a lot of folks, if not, all of the folks here make a really good arguments. I see a lot of good case for Ousen or Moubu being the Number 1, some others about Tou or Yotanwa, while Kanki literally get no mentions whatsoever Lmao.

I don't mind about one of Qin's Six Generals being the number 1 of Qin, all of them have their own unique ways of fighting and quirks.

Like, Moubu's strength is so strong that he surpassed the boundary of tactics itself.


Ousen being the smartest general of Qin, Yotanwa's leadership is one, if not the best in Qin's military, Kanki's psychological warfare is fearsome, Tou being the most "flawless" general, etc.

Which is the reason why I put the "All Qin's Six Great Generals are Number 1" option in the poll cuz each have distinct abilities when it comes to warfare.
 
#56
Ousen Is the cleverest everybody knows that
But let's face it MOUBU is #1
I don't understand why Hara doesn't give the likes of Ousen and Kanki 1vs 1 flights while they already have 90+ strength ratings (correct me if I'm wrong). This is already pretty high tbh.

Lately if you don't have a strength stat of at least 95 you ain't getting a duel lol 😂
 
#57
You are not that woman, trust me you are not that woman.

Ousen.

Kanki has visible problems and he was on verge of losing if not for Shin.

Moubu is just a dumb ape.

Yotanwa is contender for the spot but someone like Ousen would outsmart her badly.
From your wording it feels you are underestimating the Lord of death isit?
Yes Ousen most likely can outplay her in strategies that is afterall his gimmick but i dont know about badly. She hasn't been outsmarted by anyone in the manga so far, while Ousen has been by Riboku.

I bet folks remember the statistics wrong about her last fight, SSJ was outsmarting Heki entire time never YTW, she followed after SSJ knowing well it was bait since she had to ensure SSJ army don't mess with Qin main army anyhow. SSJ took help from another mountain warriors force equally skilled motivated to die in battle to save their families with a number difference far greatsr than we have seen in other battles at loss of rations and food for her own army due to Heki mishaps.

I'll just say Yo Tan Wa leadership is best, her tactics head is not bad either she was first one to recognize the threat that is Riboku without ever meeting him and got most experience out of these generals atleast as per stats. She can two shot a General that can match base Ba Jio. Like she's very underrated because she ended up being very cornered and had to be rescued, but the strategy she used was actually very good in practicality. The more risky something is, more chances it have of success. It is like Kanki completely letting Ko Chou believe his army has been slaughtered to pull one on him.
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
#58
From your wording it feels you are underestimating the Lord of death isit?
Yes Ousen most likely can outplay her in strategies that is afterall his gimmick but i dont know about badly. She hasn't been outsmarted by anyone in the manga so far, while Ousen has been by Riboku.

I bet folks remember the statistics wrong about her last fight, SSJ was outsmarting Heki entire time never YTW, she followed after SSJ knowing well it was bait since she had to ensure SSJ army don't mess with Qin main army anyhow. SSJ took help from another mountain warriors force equally skilled motivated to die in battle to save their families with a number difference far greatsr than we have seen in other battles at loss of rations and food for her own army due to Heki mishaps.

I'll just say Yo Tan Wa leadership is best, her tactics head is not bad either she was first one to recognize the threat that is Riboku without ever meeting him and got most experience out of these generals atleast as per stats. She can two shot a General that can match base Ba Jio. Like she's very underrated because she ended up being very cornered and had to be rescued, but the strategy she used was actually very good in practicality. The more risky something is, more chances it have of success. It is like Kanki completely letting Ko Chou believe his army has been slaughtered to pull one on him.
I think Hara toned her down recently because he made her too op. ( I'm talking about her debut and later her insane invasion pace ).
 
#59
No, having a weakness to exploit does not make you an easier General to defeat. Kousonryuu of Zhao is an all arounder with no weaknesses to exploit. Who do you think is harder to defeat between Ousen and Kousonryuu? Ousen has weaknesses after all while KSR does not. What about KSR vs Moubu? Will KSR win because he has no weaknesses? Clearly not.

Having no weaknesses is not correlated with who is easier to defeat in battle. Weaknesses are a factor sure but there is much more at play.
You are making random example of two Generals that aren't linked while I'm using a direct comparison.
GHM straight up made Tou huge deal while having witnessed Moubu up close too. That is different Lee.

GHM being concerned for Tou realising he might have to face Qin soon imply he has means to deal with Moubu, but not Tou.

Kanki found a weakness of Ki Sui and won the battle. Riboku found the weakness of Kanki implies now he has better chances of winning against him. A weakness to explout means what it does, GHM words implied Tou is biggest threat to when the war comes at their Gate.

We know that all of the Qin 6 minus Koshou built their legends on their martial prowess. This was explicitly stated by Shouheikun. Ouki also stated that Moubu’s talent as a warrior was probably equivalent to each of the Qin 6’s martial talents (before Ouki had seen Moubu fight himself).

We as the reader may know more of their strategies/tactics, but within Kingdom it has been established that all of the Qin 6 minus Koshou were heavily martial Generals, and even Koshou had Shouheikun as his sword, and Shouheikun’s strength was famed in his youth. 5 of the Qin 6 are heavily known for their martial prowess with the only pure strategist of the group being the exception
I already talked about the Qin 6 all being heavily martial Generals. Koshou was a strategist who had a top tier warrior as his sword. Rinshoujou was a strategist who relied on the strength of his Ten Heroes to shoulder the martial burden of his army. Riboku has taken advantage of a number of extremely powerful warrior generals over the course of his military career including the literal strongest character in the manga by stats. In fact Riboku’s greatest victories were achieved by exploiting Houken. Ousen himself is a powerful warrior and also has powerful warriors serving under him. Renpa has heavily martial warriors in his service including himself. Gakuki had Gekishin who used to slay Bushin constantly, and Gakuki himself is freaking huge so he may have had some fighting ability as wel
In other words, there is not a single renowned Great General in this manga who is known purely for utilizing strategy, even the most strategy reliant Generals like Rinshoujou and Koshou took advantage of powerful warriors because strategy alone is not enough. Having martial power in your service is an absolute necessity
Meanwhile, I can point to a few Great Generals who rose to prominence solely on martial power and nothing else including Houken who slayed multiple Great Generals without an ounce of military knowledge at his disposal, Kanmei who is the only character in the manga to achieve 100+ victories for Chu while never suffering a single defeat as well as defeating a member of the Qin 6 overwhelmingly, Gaimou who slayed over 100 enemy Generals, Oukotsu, Moubu, etc…
Each of these characters have either average or above average strategists at their command and yet have had extremely successful service records. So the best you can say is that the best Generals in this manga relied both heavily on strategy and martial power, while I can point to dominant martial Great Generals who had no use for strategy at all
can’t think of any instances of strategy overcoming martial power aside from Moubu at Bayou which was inconclusive and also irrelevant now that Moubu has grown as a character and is Qin’s highest ranked Great General without utilizing strategy at all.
Duke Hyou defeated Gokei’s strategy at Dakan Plains almost exclusively through martial power.
Riboku used strategy to defeat Ouki, but Ouki himself was also a strategic General, and even then Riboku’s strategy would’ve failed if Houken wasn’t there to hold Ouki at bay
Strategy failed Riboku at the Coalition War as Sei amped the martial power of literal old men and children to hold off an elite Riboku army, even as Riboku threw the entire book of advanced tactics and strategy at Sai, Sei held the city exclusively by amping the martial power of its citizens since the defensive strategies employed by Ten and Kaioku were inferior to Riboku’s. Again, martial power trumping strategy.
So literally I have no idea where the notion that martial power loses to strategy comes from when in Kingdom the opposite appears to be true. This ain’t irl, this is a manga.
It will take me too long to reply all the quotes individually on mobile, so I'm just going to address the important points.

  • I named you the Strongest Generals of past and current Greatest General Riboku, there's nothing hyping them up but their strategies. Sure they can be strong but that is not what make them the greatest. Their ability to command, outdo their enemies and manipulate the entire battlefield as well as their palm is why they are the Greatest of Era.
  • Alright we may not know enough about Previous Qin 6 but Riboku is prime example we have right in front of our eyes. Like can you imagine any General in this manga doubting Riboku chances of winning against any General on pure Strategies alone with enough preparation? No one will.
  • You belittle Strategical Generals achievements saying they had Solid Generals managing the win for them. But i ask you one question did Houken make Riboku great or it were other way arround? Did Riboku stop being the Goat when Houken died? No.
  • Riboku is still the Goat very well in his prime and the single greatest threat to Qin kingly ambitions of Unification of China.
  • In fact Riboku had still whittled down Qin army into a checkmate position and at great disadvantage before the battle even started, without the help of Houken and with different set of General he had when he defeated Ouki.
  • So you can't take the credits away just cause Riboku, RSJ, Ousen may have had solid Generals under em. A Strategiest way of making strategies revolve arround making the best use of resources they've at their disposal. If you question that might as well say, they only managed to win because of Terrain advantage, else they wouldn't have won otherwise. Ignoring that if not for Terrain they would've strategise and come up with complete different strategy, won still.
  • Following a Martial General behind can pump an army to outdo emself at best while a Strategical head with right words can achieve the same manipulating their emotions, and win the battle conditions before even arriving at the battlefield.
  • Kanmei, Ganmou and Oukotsu were never considered the Greatest Generals. Hakuki, Gaku Ki and Riboku do and we got clear hints they were primarily Strategiests.
  • Ganmou has an Advisor/Strategiest helping him. Moubu require the help of SHK at times with strategies. Kanmie battle info is not clear how or against what Generals he won the battles. So no they didn't manage to win all battles without strategies.
  • I will give you a very good example to show the difference between a Martial General and Great Strategical Head.... Zhou is country with many talented Generals but is being attacked by Qin rn. Houken or even Moubu can't save Zhou despite having similar Generals to command while Riboku can this is simply why Strategical head will always be>>Martial might in Kingdom Lee.

  1. Sei didn't outdo Riboku by martial might. I don't know how you got such an idea. Sei leadership skills awakened the army to keep pushing for their limits, a number of good strategiests were sent by SHK to command these men at walls.
  2. Moubu instead would've gotten the men instant killed had he been there. Like how do you picture Moubu to fight in the scenario, he'd be waste or would open the gates to meet Riboku on open Battlefield. With numbers and men city had Moubu wouldn't survive few hours, much less stalls days long for help to arrive.
  3. Most of decision making to manage that win against Riboku were strategical. El Sei himself deciding to go there as the leader figure, SHK sending Strageists, planning the shifts the breaks, distributing men women old and childrens different roles, and managing the resources same way, El Sei personally visiting the injured to rile them up and the information withheld for Yo Tan to catch Riboku offguard. Just because Riboku also made use of Strategies doesn't make it an example of Martial might vs Strategies.
  4. In end I'd use Mouten example. Hi Shin unit without a Strategiest stands no chance against Mouten even with better men under him. It has been pointed so many times by Hara such, in fact I'd not bet on Hi Shin Unit winning against Mouten still if we don't count Kyou Kai unit.
What I'd concede though is like Owl Ki pointed out Moubu is well experienced General despite not relying on Strategies that is how he managed to survive despite having no Strategiest in his army, unlike Shin who couldn't manage weeks without Kyou Kai and Karyo Ten.
But that don't mean Moubu can manage victory against a General of calibre that can match Riboku in strategies. Ousen is Goat and just as Great as Riboku and Ren Pa in China history.
 

Lee Ba Shou

Conqueror of the Stars
#60
This conversation got a lot bigger than I originally thought it would lol. But I am enjoying it, I hope you are as well YTW.

You are making random example of two Generals that aren't linked while I'm using a direct comparison.
GHM straight up made Tou huge deal while having witnessed Moubu up close too. That is different Lee.
Do you honestly think Gohoumei is not worried about facing Moubu lol? Wei has no one who can stop him.

And you are inferring things from Houmei’s statement that were never stated nor implied, which is why I brought up a General with no weaknesses who is clearly inferior to Generals that do have weaknesses. Weaknesses by themselves don’t mean much when the overall talent level of a General is higher than that of another General. And Moubu’s talent is clearly above Qin 6 level from everything we know while Tou’s talent is at Qin 6 level.

I named you the Strongest Generals of past and current Greatest General Riboku, there's nothing hyping them up but their strategies. Sure they can be strong but that is not what make them the greatest. Their ability to command, outdo their enemies and manipulate the entire battlefield as well as their palm is why they are the Greatest of Era.
It’s funny that you say this since Riboku has not achieved a single victory after the loss of Houken, not one, and Riboku’s current strategy for the defense of Zhao is heavily focused on the fact that he now has access to Shibashou’s retinue of monsters lol.

Part of what makes Riboku great is the fact that he knows how to exploit the powerful martial commanders at his disposal. There was not a single instance in this manga where Riboku achieved something impressive without basing his strategies on a powerful martial commander. Defeating Ouki? He needed Houken for that. Defeating Duke Hyou? Duke Hyou easily overcame Riboku’s Ryuudou and was slain by Houken. Gekishin? Riboku’s strategic move of relocating his HQ was easily read by Gekishin, and Houken won the battle for him. Riboku’s current Zhao defensive strategy? Now heavily predicated on the help of Shibashou and his Seika commanders. In fact Riboku’s defensive strategic actions would not have worked without Kansaro and Jiaga rerouting 150k Qin soldiers purely through a surprise martial attack.

Alright we may not know enough about Previous Qin 6 but Riboku is prime example we have right in front of our eyes. Like can you imagine any General in this manga doubting Riboku chances of winning against any General on pure Strategies alone with enough preparation? No one will.
Like I said, Riboku needs martial commanders for his strategies to work. In the current battle against Kanki, Riboku has several dominant martial commanders with him including Bananji and two of Shibashou’s commanders. Riboku’s strategies would always, always fail without his access to martial commanders.

In fact this has always been a major theme of the Kingdom manga, overly logical Generals losing to martial Generals with greater wills and ambitions. Reread Dakan Plains and see how hard Hara forces this message, the entire point of the first major Kingdom battle is that purely logical/strategic Generals will lose to Generals with greater ambition and drive.

You belittle Strategical Generals achievements saying they had Solid Generals managing the win for them. But i ask you one question did Houken make Riboku great or it were other way arround? Did Riboku stop being the Goat when Houken died? No.
I’m not belittling strategy, I am pointing out how essential access to martial commanders is for strategy to work in the first place. Riboku would’ve never become the strongest General in China without utilizing his martial commanders, because strategy alone is not enough to overcome ambition.

In fact Riboku had still whittled down Qin army into a checkmate position and at great disadvantage before the battle even started, without the help of Houken and with different set of General he had when he defeated Ouki.
But the Qin army were not checkmated lol. Ouki and Moubu had the Zhao completely on the back foot, achieving a series of overwhelming victories despite being at a huge disadvantage. The overwhelmingly strategic Fuuki was defeating by the purely martial Hi Shin Unit, and this was after Fuji’s strategies had failed against Kanou, who used his martial strength to plow through straight to Fuuki’s HQ. This was the same Fuuki that Ouki called “extremely brilliant” (I just reread the arc and yes I swear, Ouki calls Fuuki extremely brilliant lol). Then strategy failed the Zhao center for two days straight as Moubu brutalized the defensive tactics of Rihaku and Kousonryuu. The Zhao were being defeated by the Qin so badly that Chousou retreats entirely. So the Qin were far from “check-mated”, no idea where you got that idea.

And in fact, like I said before, if Riboku would’ve not had Houken, Ouki would’ve broken the Zhao encirclement of Moubu and regrouped the Qin army, and would’ve continued to defeat the Zhao even with a weaker army. Chousou’s strategy could not stop Tou alone, add Ouki into the mix and the Zhao are finished.

So Riboku’s strategy at Bayou most certainly did not checkmate the Qin army, and his strategies would have failed anyway if not for Houken being able to check Ouki.

So you can't take the credits away just cause Riboku, RSJ, Ousen may have had solid Generals under em.
They would never have achieved the fame they did without access to their martial commanders. I explained this in great detail with Riboku but the same applies to Rinshoujou, Koshou, and Ousen. Obviously strategy is extremely important but you are outright dismissing the crucial importance of having powerful warriors at your disposal.

Kanmei, Ganmou and Oukotsu were never considered the Greatest Generals. Hakuki, Gaku Ki and Riboku do and we got clear hints they were primarily Strategiests.
Kanmei has a more successful service record than Riboku does, for sure. Riboku has suffered a ton of defeats actually. Kanmei fought for decades, achieved over a hundred victories and was never defeated once. Oukotsu’s name is still feared decades after his death, he was name-dropped just recently by another state when the Q6 were revived. Koshou was not.

Regardless, Hakuki was a heavily martial General. We know this from Shouheikun’s words, and I’ve already discussed Riboku in detail. Gakuki also had Gekishin who was quite strong in his youth, but we know almost nothing of Gakuki anyway.

Ganmou has an Advisor/Strategiest helping him. Moubu require the help of SHK at times with strategies. Kanmie battle info is not clear how or against what Generals he won the battles. So no they didn't manage to win all battles without strategies.
Kanmei defeated Oukotsu overwhelmingly, any claims that we don’t know who Kanmei fought are irrelevant from that point alone. This isn’t like Mougou who the Qin only used when the other states had no Great Generals to defend against him, Kanmei defeated one of the greatest Qin Great Generals of all time in an overwhelming fashion.

Gaimou has the most run-of-the-mill strategist serving him lol. No earthly idea why you even brought him up.

Moubu required Shouheikun’s help exactly one time and Moubu haters act like Shouheikun has baby-sat Moubu for his entire military career when Ouki even stated that Moubu’s knowledge of warfare ran deep. And this was Bayou Moubu too lol.

Zhou is country with many talented Generals but is being attacked by Qin rn. Houken or even Moubu can't save Zhou despite having similar Generals to command while Riboku can this is simply why Strategical head will always be>>Martial might in Kingdom Lee.
Riboku can’t save Zhao either, Zhao will in fact fall under his watch lol. Let’s make that clear. Ousen said it himself, all it takes is buffoonish leadership to collapse a state, the strongest General in China cannot save a state from incompetent leadership.

Sei didn't outdo Riboku by martial might. I don't know how you got such an idea. Sei leadership skills awakened the army to keep pushing for their limits, a number of good strategiests were sent by SHK to command these men at walls.
What do you think Awakening is Yotanwa lol? It’s when you amp the martial power of your army to absurd levels. Even as Riboku bombarded Sai with strategy after strategy, tactic after tactic, Sai’s army of old men and children repelled an army of elites for eight days straight solely because Sei amped their martial power through awakening.

Ten and Kaioku’s tactics played a part, but Sai wouldn’t have held for even one day had Sei not been there to awaken its people.

Moubu instead would've gotten the men instant killed had he been there. Like how do you picture Moubu to fight in the scenario, he'd be waste or would open the gates to meet Riboku on open Battlefield. With numbers and men city had Moubu wouldn't survive few hours, much less stalls days long for help to arrive.
Any General in China would’ve gotten the people of Sai killed. Riboku said it himself, no General was capable of defending Sai the way Sei did. Only a King was capable of achieving since a feat, and even then Shoubunkun said even great Kings like King Sho could not have defended Sai like Sei did. Put the best strategists in China at Sai and Sai falls in less than a day, don’t single Moubu out as if only he could not defend Sai lol. No General could’ve defended Sai in that scenario as stated by Riboku.

Most of decision making to manage that win against Riboku were strategical. El Sei himself deciding to go there as the leader figure, SHK sending Strageists, planning the shifts the breaks, distributing men women old and childrens different roles, and managing the resources same way, El Sei personally visiting the injured to rile them up and the information withheld for Yo Tan to catch Riboku offguard. Just because Riboku also made use of Strategies doesn't make it an example of Martial might vs Strategies.
And yet as Riboku said, no strategist in China was capable of achieving what Sei was achieving. And how did Sei achieve the defense of Sai? He awakened its population, IE amping their martial power as Riboku bombarded Sei with advanced strategies and still failed to take the city for 8 days straight when any strategic defense would have failed after just 1.

In end I'd use Mouten example. Hi Shin unit without a Strategiest stands no chance against Mouten even with better men under him. It has been pointed so many times by Hara such, in fact I'd not bet on Hi Shin Unit winning against Mouten still if we don't count Kyou Kai unit.
Again the argument is not that strategy is irrelevant, the argument is that strategy does not trump martial power in this manga as you seem to be convinced that it does.

But that don't mean Moubu can manage victory against a General of calibre that can match Riboku in strategies. Ousen is Goat and just as Great as Riboku and Ren Pa in China history.
Ousen has yet to achieve the feats that he is historically regarded for. We are not discussing EOS Ousen. He has not proved himself to be of that level yet. We are still discussing Ousen who only fights the battles he knows he can win, and who’s biggest military accomplishment of all time is capturing one city of Zhao, with Ousen himself admitting he would’ve failed if not for the new Qin trio, while Moubu’s biggest accomplishment is defeating one of the strongest Generals in Kingdom history.
 
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