Who is the Number 1 General of Qin right now?

[Nidai_Kitetsu]

It has to be Ousen based on his accomplishments against Zhao. He is winning against the most dangerous man in China, Riboku. Due to Moubu's stupidity, Ouki got killed by Houken-Riboku duo. The Qin army would be dead by now if Moubu was the supreme commander in Zhao invasion.

- Defeated the strongest Chu’s General Kanmei.

lol, no. Kanmei is nobody at Chuu

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

lol, no. Kanmei is nobody at Chuu

Kanmei was the #2 Chu Great General, ranked above everybody but Kou En.

“A nobody?” Lol, Kanmei would’ve surely defeated Ousen I can promise you that. Unless Ousen retreats and holds up in a fort somewhere, but he is not defeating Kanmei. Kanmei achieved 99 victories for Chu and overwhelmingly defeated Oukotsu before he was even a Great General.

Of all Great Generals in Kingdom, there are only two of them who have achieved over one hundred victories and were never defeated once, and that is Haku Ki and Kanmei.

 

[God Buggy]

Like you said, he pulled off the Echelon after Shouheikun taught him,

True.

Lol watch Shouheikun have 15 broken tactical formations he hasn't shown the world yet.

 

[Nidai_Kitetsu]

Kanmei was the #2 Chu Great General, ranked above everybody but Kou En.

“A nobody?” Lol, Kanmei would’ve surely defeated Ousen I can promise you that. Unless Ousen retreats and holds up in a fort somewhere, but he is not defeating Kanmei. Kanmei achieved 99 victories for Chu and overwhelmingly defeated Oukotsu before he was even a Great General.

Of all Great Generals in Kingdom, there are only two of them who have achieved over one hundred victories and were never defeated once, and that is Haku Ki and Kanmei.

If Kanmei was so great, the king of Chuu would be more respectful to him. Do you believe he would have said such things if it was Kouen who died at the coalition invasion arc?

"Dice into mincemeat those imbeciles the moment their bodies return"
"It was foolish of me to be stingy when choosing my military contribution to the coalition"

Ousen gets compared to Hakuki, the leader of the former six great generals. Dont compare him to Oukotsu.

 

[Zo0oL SaN]

Ousen Is the cleverest everybody knows that
But let's face it MOUBU is #1

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

If Kanmei was so great, the king of Chuu would be more respectful to him. Do you believe he would have said such things if it was Kouen who died at the coalition invasion arc?

"Dice into mincemeat those imbeciles the moment their bodies return"
"It was foolish of me to be stingy when choosing my military contribution to the coalition"

Kou Retsu was referencing the fact that he did not send Kou En, this has nothing to do with Kanmei lol. Kanmei was stronger than every Chu General not named Kou En, for a fact. Even stronger than Karin who now heads the entire Chu military.

And like I said, only Haku Ki and Kanmei both had over 100 victories while never losing once. Even Kou En and Gaku Ki don’t boast this as far as we know. Riboku has even been defeated twice, and Renpa has been defeated at least once.

So calling Kanmei a nobody when he’s a standout even among Great Generals is pretty preposterous. Also, the only two characters we’ve ever seen overwhelmingly defeat one of the Qin 6, was also Riboku and Kanmei.

If this was a tier list for Great Generals, Kanmei would be among the very best, make no mistake. And Moubu defeated him.

Ousen gets compared to Hakuki, the leader of the former six great generals. Dont compare him to Oukotsu.

The funny thing is that Ousen has never once been stated to be above Qin 6 level while Moubu has, repeatedly. Ouki and Koshou both said Ousen was Qin 6 level, not above, and Renpa was openly disappointed with Ousen even after surrendering to Qin.

Moubu has been said to be the strongest offensive power in Qin history when both Kyou and Oukotsu were heavily offensive Generals, and also Moubu defeated the guy who overwhelmingly defeated Oukotsu.

In terms of portrayal, the manga has been very consistent:

Moubu > the old Qin 6
Ousen = the old Qin 6, and this has never once been contradicted.

Ousen’s best feat of defeating Riboku was something Ousen said only happened because of Shin, Ouhon, and Mouten. Ousen also stated that Riboku used superior tactics to him as well.

 

[RayanOO]

Kou Retsu was referencing the fact that he did not send Kou En, this has nothing to do with Kanmei lol. Kanmei was stronger than every Chu General not named Kou En, for a fact. Even stronger than Karin who now heads the entire Chu military.

And like I said, only Haku Ki and Kanmei both had over 100 victories while never losing once. Even Kou En and Gaku Ki don’t boast this as far as we know. Riboku has even been defeated twice, and Renpa has been defeated at least once.

So calling Kanmei a nobody when he’s a standout even among Great Generals is pretty preposterous. Also, the only two characters we’ve ever seen overwhelmingly defeat one of the Qin 6, was also Riboku and Kanmei.

If this was a tier list for Great Generals, Kanmei would be among the very best, make no mistake. And Moubu defeated him.



The funny thing is that Ousen has never once been stated to be above Qin 6 level while Moubu has, repeatedly. Ouki and Koshou both said Ousen was Qin 6 level, not above, and Renpa was openly disappointed with Ousen even after surrendering to Qin.

Moubu has been said to be the strongest offensive power in Qin history when both Kyou and Oukotsu were heavily offensive Generals, and also Moubu defeated the guy who overwhelmingly defeated Oukotsu.

In terms of portrayal, the manga has been very consistent:

Moubu > the old Qin 6
Ousen = the old Qin 6, and this has never once been contradicted.

Ousen’s best feat of defeating Riboku was something Ousen said only happened because of Shin, Ouhon, and Mouten. Ousen also stated that Riboku used superior tactics to him as well.

Ousen was directly portrayed superior to YTW and Kanki while he was appointed commander in chief of the army. He is the only Q6 who had direct better portrayal compared to the others

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Ousen was directly portrayed superior to YTW and Kanki while he was appointed commander in chief of the army. He is the only Q6 who had direct better portrayal than the others

Shouheikun stated that he chose Ousen because of his strategic acumen being the best suited for the campaign. That is not superior portrayal, that is choosing the commander best suited for the situation.

Regardless I mostly agree Ousen is above Yotanwa and Kanki but they are all relative to each other with Moubu being superior.

 

[RayanOO]

Shouheikun stated that he chose Ousen because of his strategic acumen being the best suited for the campaign. That is not superior portrayal, that is choosing the commander best suited for the situation.

Yeah because Ousen strategic mind is insane

To make a big and long war : you pick up Ousen to lead.

Regardless I mostly agree Ousen is above Yotanwa and Kanki but they are all relative to each other with Moubu being superior.

It depends in a head on clash Moubu has a chance a winning

But in a big war with prep, logistic, traps etc Ousen will beat Mo

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Moubu is strongest in 1 vs 1 among these Generals but he has big fatal flaw i.e Strategies.

Moubu's not winning an army battle against Ousen like cmon what use are Strategies if battles are won just like that. He's managed to win crucial battles from help from SHK.​

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2022

Folks forget Ousen Kingly ambitions is why he didn't step positions to top first, he's untrustablable thats why it raised eyebrows when Ousen was chosen to lead the biggest campaign Qin ever had, against Goat Riboku. But everyone acknowledged he's the only one best suited to lead this compaign. Ousen also has ever had the biggest hype by being compared to greatest of Qin 6 and by one of the greatest Generals in history Ren Pa.

It is undeniable to say he's currently the No 1 General of Qin.

 

[Dark Admiral]

And were it not for Moubu, Man’U would’ve reduced every Qin and Wei commander to blood smeers on the ground. Gohoumei could not stop GenU, and Tou was being held off by Kou Yoku. What on earth could they have done against ManU?

I'm not questioning his strength. He did layed his part to stop Man'U's onslaught but apart from that he didn't had much going on. His whole game plan was to charge straight ahead into the enemy frontlines. GHM was the one who finally saw a chance to seize the moment and acted accordingly. In the end, both Tou and Moubu were just fulfilling their part on the bigger plan of GHM's strategy.

Where on earth did you get this idea? The whole point of Moubu’s Bayou character development was him learning the folly of his own impatience and arrogance. Moubu is an entirely different General now and I have no idea where this idea that he’s the same Bayou Moubu comes from.

Bayou Moubu thought he could crush Ouki with his bare hands, Coalition Moubu almost beat Tou up for imitating Ouki’s speech patterns. That is how far Moubu has grown.

Yeah, saying Moubu as the same old was bit of stretch but he isn't carrying the weight of a Great General either. He was playing smart even before at Bayou when he didn't break through enemy defense lines in spite of him fully capable of doing so. All I'm saying is he can be a GG but he cannot be named ontop of madmen Kanki, Big Brain Ousen and YTW.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Yeah because Ousen strategic mind is insane

To make a big and long war : you pick up Ousen to lead.


It depends in a head on clash Moubu has a chance a winning

But in a big war with prep, logistic, traps etc Ousen will beat Mo

In a headon war, Moubu would brutalize Ousen, let’s not mince words. Ousen has nothing/no one that can compete with Moubu.

But if Ousen were in a situation that allowed him to retreat, he would be able to at least survive against Moubu. Not every war allows for retreat tactics.

Moubu is strongest in 1 vs 1 among these Generals but he has big fatal flaw i.e Strategies.

Moubu's not winning an army battle like cmon what use are Strategies if battles are won just like that. He's managed to win crucial battles from help from SHK.​

He has no such fatal flaw. Karin accomplished absolutely nothing against him for 3 years straight, and even Riboku’s strategy at Bayou did not defeat Moubu, it merely cornered him which is not the same thing.

Likewise, no other Qin General defeats Kanmei. Only Yotanwa would arguably stand a chance, but otherwise Moubu is clearly Qin’s strongest General in open warfare.

This thread is simply placing too much value on strategy. Shouheikun is one of the top strategists in all of China, ask him who he thinks is the stronger General between Moubu and Ousen. On the flip side, point to me a single in-manga individual who believes Ousen is a stronger General than Moubu. Just one. Even after the Gyou Campaign, Qin still ranked Moubu above Ousen.

His whole game plan was to charge straight ahead into the enemy frontlines. GHM was the one who finally saw a chance to seize the moment and acted accordingly. In the end, both Tou and Moubu were just fulfilling their part on the bigger plan of GHM's strategy.

Sure, but likewise Gohoumei’s strategy would’ve been worthless without Moubu and Tou playing there roles. Strategy does not trump martial power.

Like I said before, Gohoumei’s defense could not stop GenU. His strategy was simply to take Juukou’Ou’s head before GenU had time to defeat the Wei Army. That said, put ManU or Moubu in GenU’s place, and Gohoumei will be even more helpless to stop them in spite of Gohoumei being a strategic genius, one of the best in China.

Yeah, saying Moubu as the same old was bit of stretch but he isn't carrying the weight of a Great General either. He was playing smart even before at Bayou when he didn't break through enemy defense lines in spite of him fully capable of doing so. All I'm saying is he can be a GG but he cannot be named ontop of madmen Kanki, Big Brain Ousen and YTW.

Kanmei carried the weight of a Great General, this was openly stated by Kanmei’s strategist (JunSou?) who stated that Moubu could not defeat Kanmei since Moubu did not have weight while Kanmei had enormous weight due to his service record.

How did that work out again?

Again you place far too much value on strategy. Ask the greatest strategist in Qin to rank Qin’s generals, he will tell you that Moubu is the most terrifying of them and that Moubu’s strength surpasses strategy and tactics.

Also do you seriously believe Kanki > Moubu

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

He has no such fatal flaw. Karin accomplished absolutely nothing against him for 3 years straight, and even Riboku’s strategy at Bayou did not defeat Moubu, it merely cornered him which is not the same thing.

Likewise, no other Qin General defeats Kanmei. Only Yotanwa would arguably stand a chance, but otherwise Moubu is clearly Qin’s strongest General in open warfare.

Opponents like Kanmei Man'u are what best suited for Moubu. You won't expect or see Mou bu win battles against Top Tier Strategists.

Stalling is one different thing, Zhou Guardian General Ko Chou stalled Ousen, Kanki and YTW for 3 years that didn't make him >Over Kanki alone despite the huge gap in armies.

This thread is simply placing too much value on strategy. Shouheikun is one of the top strategists in all of China, ask him who he thinks is the stronger General between Moubu and Ousen. On the flip side, point to me a single in-manga individual who believes Ousen is a stronger General than Moubu. Just one. Even after the Gyou Campaign, Qin still ranked Moubu above Ousen.

Moubu is like Houken to some extent, bit better since he's General has weight and can lead Armies. But undeniable strategies are big part of battles.

SHK wouldn't have had to interfere and help Moubu with a strategy if he didn't need one. This fatal flaw was pointed during Ouki death, Moubu has changed realised his shortcomings so he's changed and not completely dependent on his brute strength alone. But Moubu still can't turn into a battle genius with just this realisation.

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Opponents like Kanmei Man'u are what best suited for Moubu. You won't expect or see Mou bu win battles against Top Tier Strategists.

You might not expect that, but I do lol. You can’t tell me with a straight face that Houmei would defeat Moubu for example. Houmei who is strategically top tier at this point, yet everything we saw at Juukou tells us Houmei would not be able to accomplish anything against Moubu when Houmei was not able to stop GenU.

Stalling is one different thing, Zhou Guardian General (forgot name) stalled Ousen, Kanki and YTW for 3 years that didn't make him >Over Kanki alone despite the huge gap in armies.

I didn’t say that Moubu was > Karin, I said that there’s no basis to the idea that Moubu would be bodied by any competent strategist when one of the best in China accomplished nothing against him for three years. And saying “well Bayou Moubu” is like powerscaling current Shin based on feats from Sanyou.

But undeniable strategies are big part of battles.

Sure, but so is martial power and offensive strength. Each of these aspects of warfare are similarly important depending on scenarios and objectives. Like I said before, Ousen’s strategic mind has been compared to the old Qin 6, while Moubu’s offensive power has been stated to be above the old Qin 6. These are their best attributes, and every reliable source says Ousen = Qin 6 level while Moubu is above that level.

SHK wouldn't have had to interfere and help Moubu with a strategy if he didn't need one. This fatal flaw was pointed during Ouki death, Moubu has changed realised his shortcomings so he's changed and not completely dependent on his brute strength alone. But Moubu still can't turn into a battle genius with just this realisation.

The only reason Shouheikun helped Moubu against Kanmei was due to Chu’s extreme numbers advantage, and that Kanmei was the strongest and most important Coalition Army commander. There’s no evidence that Moubu always needs Shouheikun to help him, I doubt Shouheikun was baby sitting him against Karin for 3 years straight.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Anyway I'm not saying Moubu can't win battles against Strategiest anyhow,, he can. But there's a reason Tou is hyped for being the General with no flaw, not being good at strategies is indeed an Flaw. This is again why Moubu's youngest son Mou Ki dream is to become Top Tier Strategiest to help him.​

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Anyway I'm not saying Moubu can't win battles against Strategiest anyhow,, he can. But there's a reason Tou is hyped for being the General with no flaw, not being good at strategies is indeed an Flaw. This is again why Moubu's youngest son Mou Ki dream is to become Top Tier Strategiest to help him.​

Ousen has flaws too, don’t forget. Tou is the only current Qin commander without flaws, you might argue Yotanwa has no flaws also but Ousen most certainly does. Rei Ou stated that Ousen does have flaws, Moubu is not the only Qin commander with flaws lol.

 

[MarineHQ]

what way? All of Yotanwa’s commanders just seem to be warriors with limited tactical/strategic ability. As Generals, Ousen’s gang is probably superior, and Moubu’s generals fought on par with Chu Commanders during the Coalition

The Mountain tribes are a level above the Qin's soldiers in general for starters. Yes Ousen's generals can use proper strategies but in a head on clash with no territorial advantage it's out to become a direct confrontation between Akou/Makou/Shiryou and Souou vs Bajio and co.

In that case i totally have the mountain tribes prevailing. I'll be honest YTW breaching Ousen's defence is something i don't know whether she can pull it off but she could like Moubu overcome it with pure might.

Remember what she has done to a Bajio level fighter.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

You might not expect that, but I do lol. You can’t tell me with a straight face that Houmei would defeat Moubu for example. Houmei who is strategically top tier at this point, yet everything we saw at Juukou tells us Houmei would not be able to accomplish anything against Moubu when Houmei was not able to stop GenU.

Go Hou mei witnessed both Tou and Moubu and his real concern is still Tou since the General has no weakness he can harness to win the battle aka he thinks he can beat Moubu, so do i.

Riboku managed to cut down Qin army to such a small number before the battle even started. A smart General would keep cutting down Moubu army instead of taking it head on, avoiding clashing with Moubu. Kanki won against Ko chou against impossible odds completely one sidedly thats the power of strategies.

I'm not saying this to downplay Moubu but against an respectable strategiest who's not dependent on brute forces he'd find himself struggling,

I didn’t say that Moubu was > Karin, I said that there’s no basis to the idea that Moubu would be bodied by any competent strategist when one of the best in China accomplished nothing against him for three years. And saying “well Bayou Moubu” is like powerscaling current Shin based on feats from Sanyou.

I'm already conceding Moubu is not same as Bayou Moubu but he's not perfect still.

Again stalling is not any good for discussions in my eyes.

Sure, but so is martial power and offensive strength. Each of these aspects of warfare are similarly important depending on scenarios and objectives. Like I said before, Ousen’s strategic mind has been compared to the old Qin 6, while Moubu’s offensive power has been stated to be above the old Qin 6. These are their best attributes, and every reliable source says Ousen = Qin 6 level while Moubu is above that level.

Yes head on battles Moubu can take on even GG with greatest heads. But it is being established many times in the story the Greatest of Great Generals are those that are able to play both their enemies and armies same which is Strategical head.

Moubu is in prime when it comes to strength but army battles can be more dependent on strategies that make the whole armies move as one while the greatest warrior is but one in number.

The only reason Shouheikun helped Moubu against Kanmei was due to Chu’s extreme numbers advantage, and that Kanmei was the strongest and most important Coalition Army commander. There’s no evidence that Moubu always needs Shouheikun to help him, I doubt Shouheikun was baby sitting him against Karin for 3 years straight

Moubu needed help from SHK against a similar general as him i.e Kanmei which is more reason to assume he'd struggle more against a General that just won't take him on directly. The battles are just not always limited to open grounds, or armies clashing.

Lee Kingdom has shown many times brute strentgh can over power strategies, awakening the army and General will are those two things but the contrary has also being shown many times.

Why SHK strategical help was mentioned by me is because this was Moubu first big battle after Bayou arc, to show us Moubu is not limited to relying on sole strentgh he is more open to all possibilities in battle, he's be less likely to fall for enemy taunts and baits. In hindrance it showed us Moubu was willing to work on his flaw i.e Strategies.

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2022

Ousen has flaws too, don’t forget. Tou is the only current Qin commander without flaws, you might argue Yotanwa has no flaws also but Ousen most certainly does. Rei Ou stated that Ousen does have flaws, Moubu is not the only Qin commander with flaws lol.

Yes i won't deny that. But since we have seen Ousen army and Generals i think with it's strategical head he can overpower Mou Bu while Moubu just don't have a great Strategiest helping him currently which is why I'm not favouring him here.​

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Go Hou mei witnessed both Tou and Moubu and his real concern is still Tou since the General has no weakness he can harness to win the battle aka he thinks he can beat Moubu, so do i.

I know you understand the difference between saying a General has no weaknesses to exploit, and saying a General is stronger than another. Rei Ou and Houmei never said Tou was above any Qin General, just that he had no weaknesses for them to exploit.

A smart General would keep cutting down Moubu army instead of taking it head on, avoiding clashing with Moubu.

But you don’t know that they could’ve kept Moubu contained in the long-run. Nobody can know that with certainty. Even Rihaku (famed across all China) and Kousonryuu working together could not contain Moubu.

But it is being established many times in the story the Greatest of Great Generals are those that are able to play both their enemies and armies same which is Strategical head.

Who said this? On the contrary I feel like every Great General we’ve ever seen has had enormous martial power to use in battle, with very rare exceptions like Rinshoujou and Koshou, and even these two had powerful subordinate commanders who served as their swords.

Strategy is just one aspect of being a Great General. Hell Renpa stated that a Great General needed the arm strength of 100 men (in addition to other stuff sure).

Moubu is in prime when it comes to strength but army battles can be more dependent on strategies that make the whole armies move as one while the greatest warrior is but one in number.

“Can be” and army battles can also be dependent on martial power. Strategy and martial power are equally important in warfare, and Moubu has Ousen beat here since his offensive power is above the level that Ousen’s strategic ability is currently at.

Moubu needed help from SHK against a similar general as him i.e Kanmei

Because of the huge numerical disadvantage.

Lee Kingdom has shown many times brute strentgh can over power strategies, awakening the army and General will are those two things but the contrary has also being shown many times.

Correct, you are agreeing with me. Battles are sometimes determined by strategy, other times they are determined by martial power, and as I have said a few times now, Moubu’s martial power is at a greater level than Ousen’s strategic mind from everything we understand about Kingdom.

You seem to agree that strategy and martial power are similarly important, do you agree with me that Moubu is the strongest offensive power in Qin history while Ousen’s strategic mind is merely Qin 6 level? Because this is what the manga states.

If you agree with both of the above points, you are forced to believe that Moubu is > Ousen by default.

Note: I am not saying Moubu defeats Ousen 100/100 times, I am saying Moubu is a stronger General than Ousen.

 

[centurion]

@Yo Tan Wa