Questions & Mysteries Who is the traitor?

[PuckTheGreat]

I don’t believe Shinobu’s the/a Traitor but there’s something that have had on my mind for a while now, that could serve as an argument for her being one imo, and it’s her design.

IIRC, the kinda life a woman lives in her youth determines whether she remains hot or becomes ugly in old age. Or at least that’s how Oda seems to draw women (can’t remember if he outright stated this when he drew older versions of Nami in SBS was it?) Take for example the stack difference between Shakky & Lilin. We know Shinobu was incredibly beautiful when she was young so could Oda have drawn her current self with the aforementioned mentality in mind? What do y’all think?

 

[Garp the Fist]

I don’t believe Shinobu’s the/a Traitor but there’s something that have had on my mind for a while now, that could serve as an argument for her being one imo, and it’s her design.

IIRC, the kinda life a woman lives in her youth determines whether she remains hot or becomes ugly in old age. Or at least that’s how Oda seems to draw women (can’t remember if he outright stated this when he drew older versions of Nami in SBS was it?) Take for example the stack difference between Shakky & Lilin. We know Shinobu was incredibly beautiful when she was young so could Oda have drawn her current self with the aforementioned mentality in mind? What do y’all think?

Mmm, not sure about this.

Oda has definitely shown that the Strawhats and Luffy's brothers would have became ugly with age if they hadn't followed their dreams. But he's also got a habit of showing attractive, good women age poorly. Dadan and Kokoro (and probably Kureha, though we've never seen her young) are all uglier older women while beautiful on their youth, despite being Strawhats mother figures and thus basically being One Piece saints.

So it's a 50/50 with this one.

 

[dirtyLarry]

What does that matter? He was still right... isn't that the whole Rebecca thing as well... He judged that she was a good person and when the betrayal happened he didn't just lie down and let her kill him... He fought back andnd restrained her and then he heard her out... THAT SHE WAS PRETTY INTENT ON STABBING HIM... So it doesn't matter... Pudding betrayed him and he got pissed and she didn't explain herself like Rebecca so Luffy remained pissed until she turned over her leaf and that was that... and yet in the end, Luffy was right about both of them... because he's always right... Even caribou immediately gets the benefit of a doubt from the readers because Oda made sure that it was Luffy who gave him a free pass because Oda has proven time and and gain that Luffy is his conduit for whether a character is worth trusting even to any extent in the story... Whether the character is introduced good and turn bad like Rebecca and pudding or introduced bad and turns good like Crocodile and caribou... Luffy's the barometer Oda uses to prevent fans from making theories like "when will caribou betray the crew"... Because Luffy gave him a pass so it's fine

And anyway it seems you don't want to touch on the whole "raising a guy for 20 years who secretly hates you and yet you don't realise" part of the original argument I made so I guess we're done

Let's use this moment for a quick shoutout to good ol' Caribou!
I bet he will end up being a member of the grandfleet.

Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2019

She never was showed during the conflict with Jack. The suspect to with her have logic.

She was depicted in two panels fighting against Jack's forces.

Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2019

I am pretty sure oda will make sad flashback of her being orphan.

I mean even if carrot is traitor we dont know on what dituation she is acting up.

Post automatically merged: Oct 26, 2019

The point is she was allied with big mom . She played with sanji and fooled her love for him untill he smittened her on wedding day.

Well i am on guess hunt here i dont think carrot is evil even if she was traitor.

Also once oden flashback is done i am pretty sure the traitor will soon reveal.

We also know orochi never meet the informant so its just odd . So he was relying the info from beast pirates.

The thing is that I don't think the traitor will be another tragic figure like Pudding.
It runs way too deep and has cost them way too much so far already (Yasu's death, several near-kills, rebellion almost completely fucked up etc.). I can't see how Oda could justify going a 180 with his traitor and just reveal him/her being a tragic figure in the end.
I'm pretty confident in saying the traitor will indeed be one of the worst snakes in the OP verse.

Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2019

There is a theme of deception around Kiku
-first of all she hides as a demure woman. Then she reveals in the fight with Urashima that she's actually a very capable fighter
-then she's not even a woman by birth, but is actually a man. (This isn't an attempt to offend anyone or being transphobic or anything, but it is another example of her pulling the wool over people she eyes)
-wears a mask when it comes to fighting, mask she obviously being signs of a deceiver

I'm really not set either way on who the traitor is, but she's a good shout I feel.

Kiku is definitely a good shout, but I think there is just as much speaking for her being the traitor as there is against her.
My biggest problem with her isn't even of the logical sort, it's more on the emotional part. Oda has built up that "traitor storyline" for more than 150 chapters now. It's clear that the reveal of the traitor will be a really shocking moment. I just don't see how Kiku would fit here. She's not really that important, was introduced rather recently and nobody really feels anything about him/her. She's basically "just a guy" to most readers and wouldn't trigger huge emotions. Oda knows that.

Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2019

This has been one of the most enjoyable threads in this forum as people have mostly been presenting evidences and having civil discussions.

But now, I want to deviate from the evidence-presentation for a little bit. Basically I want to discuss what the traitor's endgame could be.

Note: All of it is headcanon, no need to take seriously.

This traitor concept was first brought forward in Zou. Which means Oda already planned to include a traitor into the mix before Zou. Zou happened a long time ago and I don't think Oda had details of Wano in mind when he was drawing Zou. So, he only had basic concepts of the traitor's purpose in the story (similar to how Oda already had planned the time-travel thing by Zou).

Now, let us ask if the traitor has served that purpose. Some will say yes. The traitor has wrecked every plan the Straw Hats has had. But these plans are all details that Oda probably didn't think of at Zou. Oda probably had some vague purpose attributed to him/her at that point. One could say that Oda's vague purpose was to have the traitor wreck the alliance's plan, but I think that's not it. I think when Oda brought the traitor concept, he wanted him/her play a role in some form of tragedy to give the alliance ultimate grief.

Now, in the last chapter, we saw Kin'emon get a lot of focus. Almost as much as Oden. I think Kin'emon is gonna get more focus as the flashback goes on. Basically, the flashback will not only tell the tales of Oden but also that of Kin'emon. I think that is a big red flag that Kin'emon may be killed in the war.

I think the traitor's endgame is that he/she will Kin'emon at the heat of the battle. That will be the tragedy that ends Act 3. Redemption is already a difficult option for the traitor as he/she has already caused death (Yasuie). So, if redemption is not possible, then the only way is repulsion and I think traitor doing something repulsive is his/her endgame as far as Oda is concerned with the traitor business. Once the did is done, the Scabbards can deal with the traitors like a normal enemy.

Great post, MD! The traitor revealing himself at the end of act 3 (let's be honest, their original plan WILL fail) by killing off Kinemon in cold blood would be as dramatic and impactful as it could get.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Mmm, not sure about this.

Oda has definitely shown that the Strawhats and Luffy's brothers would have became ugly with age if they hadn't followed their dreams. But he's also got a habit of showing attractive, good women age poorly. Dadan and Kokoro (and probably Kureha, though we've never seen her young) are all uglier older women while beautiful on their youth, despite being Strawhats mother figures and thus basically being One Piece saints.

So it's a 50/50 with this one.

Fair point ^^. That was the one doubt I really had about Shinobu, but like you mentioned, given Oda isn’t really consistent with the ugly when old if ‘bad’ ting then, I think Shinobu's in the clear ^^

 

[MD Zolo]

(and probably Kureha, though we've never seen her young)

For somebody who is 140 years old, she has aged gracefully. Shouldn't be in the same sentence as the others in that list.

 

[Finalbeta]

For somebody who is 140 years old, she has aged gracefully. Shouldn't be in the same sentence as the others in that list.

She looks 80-90

 

[Topi Jerami]

So far there's no new hints about the traitor from the flashback. If anything, it shows the scabbards in a good way, Kanjuro included.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Kanjuro is betraying the alliance as pay back + to get Momo's hair.

 

[Jack Newgate]

Could be Inuarashi. Not because he's sided with Orochi, but because he might be doing it for a higher calling. Perhaps Oden or Lady Toki told him to aid Orochi by scuppering any and all plans to topple him - that is, until the right time arrives.

Just spit-balling.

 

[Patryipe]

@Sadistic Senpai

From Arthur (Read the block in the center)

Spoiler

 

[MD Zolo]

@Sadistic Senpai

From Arthur (Read the block in the center)

Spoiler

Kanjuro being from Kurozumi clan seems unlikely. And wasn't the reason for his persecution was theft?

And Artur pegged Carrot as the traitor.

 

[Kejon]

Here we go again, Kanjuro being the traitor that'd be so lame. It also wouldn't make sense, and no one even cares about Kanjuro.

 

[dirtyLarry]

Here we go again, Kanjuro being the traitor that'd be so lame. It also wouldn't make sense, and no one even cares about Kanjuro.

Well, at this point nobody cares about Carrot either, since she's been a complete non-factor for more than a year now. Not to mention the countless plotholes that her being the traitor would raise and the fact that she was actually depicted fighting (!) against Jack's men during the battle for Zou.

 

[Kejon]

Well, at this point nobody cares about Carrot either, since she's been a complete non-factor for more than a year now. Not to mention the countless plotholes that her being the traitor would raise and the fact that she was actually depicted fighting (!) against Jack's men during the battle for Zou.

At this point, the traitor has to be someone that no one is able to figure out, who exactly it is. It seems unlikely though, that Oda could come up with a character like this. Carrot, Kanjuro, Nekomamushi, and so forth, are an easy guess.

 

[dirtyLarry]

At this point, the traitor has to be someone that no one is able to figure out, who exactly it is. It seems unlikely though, that Oda could come up with a character like this. Carrot, Kanjuro, Nekomamushi, and so forth, are an easy guess.

Out of nowhere: Marco

 

[Kejon]

Out of nowhere: Marco

I would like that more than Kanjuro or Carrot being the traitor lol.

 

[Longleg Larry]

Out of nowhere: Marco

He would need a co-conspirator acting as the brains. My bet, Buggy

The clown always did it

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

@Sadistic Senpai

From Arthur (Read the block in the center)

Spoiler

It might be, and as much as I'm of a supporter for Kanjuro is traitor since I'm the originator of the theory, I find the idea of relating him to Korozumi clan ONLY BECAUSE he was persecuted is a bit excessive and it's just not right.
Because we can actually use the same thing to Izu and Kiku (who is a candidate) whom both their father was persecuted.

So, I would actually prefer a more concrete evidence to be added, and not saying that he is Korozumi clan just because he was once persecuted.

This also goes back to a theme I actually hate when it happens in shows, which is what some fans were advertising before about Blackbeard Teach as an example coming from an evil D. clan, while the Monkey clan were good...etc. I ate this whole idea of trying to label people where if a family was once corrupted and evil, their descendant will be by default evil.

I even advocated once before the idea of seeing goodhearted Celestial Dragons, and people attacked me for it, and Donquixote Homming, his wife and Corazon all appeared. Let alone seeing a celestial Dragon who had a change of heart by Otohime. The same way I'm advocating to the idea that we need to see AT LEAST one bad radical Revolutionary which people oppose me for it.
Anyway, those are topics for different threads.

The main point is not everyone who commits a crime is a Korozumi, and not every Korozumi must be labeled as evil. I'm hoping to actually see a Korozumi who is good (surely not Orochi, he needs to get his ass kicked). But you get the point

 

[Finalbeta]

Denjiro odds >>>>>>>>

 

[Draco]

Kaido confirmed the traitor exist.

If the traitor is one of the people that went to fight with Oden, does that mean that the traitor is in jail right now? They would have thrown him in jail to not arouse suspicion, but it would make sense that he was taken away before the execution. Which means that it could be Ashura or Denjiro, since none of them were among the scabbards that eventually escaped.

But with what the traitor has leaked
1. Raizo is on Zou and the Minks are hiding him
2. The meaning of the crescent moon tattoos and message
3. Where the alliance was meeting up after Yasuie's execution
4. Hiyori is alive and where she is hiding
5. Current state of Udon after Luffy took over
6. Location of ships and how the weapons were being transported
7. Oden's decision to fight Kaido

How guys like Ashura or Denjiro know Raizo is on Zou and the Minks are hiding him? There is several traitors ?

And Orochi hasn't seen the scabbards since 20 years ago when the castle was burnt down:

Spoiler

Does this dismiss the chance that the traitor is one of them? (even if the fact Orochi is painting during that scene can be a hint about Kanjuro)... I don't know how it can be a time travelling scabbards otherwise Orochi would have not said that he still didn't know if the scabbards were alive or not.

And since this chapter literally explains that there was a traitor in Oden castle before Shinobu joined the gang so he can't be her too. Plus she's the only one who knows Oden's real motivation for the dance.

And one of the most important part of this chapter was the traitor existed 20 years ago, Carrot is 15 years old lol, therefore.. Carrot can't be the traitor (except if there is several and news traitors over time but it will be reaching with her, I suppose).